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Hi. On Kerkouane, a Punic/Phoenician deity called "Sid" is mentioned. It links to Sid, a disambiguation page, and I cannot find anything about a god called Sid on Wikipedia or the rest of the internet. Does anyone know who this could be? Lennart97 (talk) 18:05, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's sourced to this book [1]. The god is described as a minor member of the Carthagian pantheon and Sardus Pater was the name that Sid Pati came to be known by the Roman epoch and mentions him as a son of Melqart. We have an article on Sardus Pater, though it doesn't seem to mention the Carthaginians.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:14, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Elias Ziade, do you happen to have full access to Lipiński, Edward (1995). Dieux et déesses de l'univers phénicien et punique (in French). Peeters Publishers. p. 368. ISBN9789068316902.? The article on Sardus Pater is somewhat embarrassing. Miles mentions (somewhere) that Sid is originally a Phoenician god, which is not mentioned in the article. It might be worth redirecting to Sid/Sib Babbi/whatever Punic name Sardus Pater had as well.--Ermenrich (talk) 15:07, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ermenrich: No I don't, sorry mate. I will search for alternative sources for you tomorrow. ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 15:24, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I believe Religion in Carthage falls under this projects scope. This article is in desperate need of attention, as seen by the discussion of Sid above. The “pantheon” section fails to actually mention any gods besides Astarte, for instance.—Ermenrich (talk) 18:59, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ermenrich, I don't know much about this subject but in fact there is also a link to the Tanit article already (without further elaboration) and I can immediately suggest a link to Ba'al and Melquart would not go amiss. GPinkerton (talk) 23:36, 3 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks GPinkerton, I've done an "emergency edit" that should hold things over for the moment. Obviously the article needs better sources than "Ancient History Encyclopedia" and needs to go into depth on some of the identifications and syncretism (i.e. Tanit as Juno, Melqart as Hercules).--Ermenrich (talk) 00:51, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've gotten the article I think into half acceptable shape, still waiting to get my hands on some sources. However, if anyone actually knows anything about Phoenician religion or Greco-Roman sources on Carthaginian religion, they would certainly be able to help.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:32, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like you've whipped it into shape. The picture at the top is very striking, but it would probably be better to have something from Carthage. On the tophets, I'm not sure whether the point about the majority opinion is correct and am very surprised to find Hoyos saying that the practice was more frequent in the earlier years of the city - this used to be a common line, but I thought that the archaeological evidence now showed the opposite. Will investigate this evening. Furius (talk) 13:38, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Furius, I'm a bit surprised by the AC as well, but the source says At any rate, the majority opinion among European scholars is that the immolation of humans may not have existed at all, or that, at best, it was a limited phenomenon in the Phoenician and Punic world. Nevertheless, other scholars tend to argue that human sacrifice played a somewhat essential role in non-Israelite religions. At this point, however, it seems that still more evidence is needed before the mlk-sacrifice is fully understood. Does this imply that American/non-Europeans think it was important? I'm not sure. Thanks for looking into it! I'm trying to improve Tophet as well.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:42, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article Moloch, in common with the articles Tophet and Religion in Carthage until just now, is a big mess. Many scholars explain Moloch as being a type of sacrifice based on Punic and Phoenician inscriptions using "mlk" to mean sacrifice. A number of useful sources have already been collected at Tophet that could be used to help improve that article.--Ermenrich (talk) 18:06, 6 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Ermenrich: Indeed it's a mess, I am off wiki for a while. I will do my best to help out. ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 06:47, 7 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As a first step I've liberated Milcom from his unjustified former redirect to Moloch.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:54, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Moving "Religion in Carthage" to a better title[edit]
I support the move under another name however I have one concern. @Onceinawhile: what do you think? ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 09:51, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)
It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.
The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.
Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.
I have some other Phoenicia-Canaan articles that exit in Hebrew you might be interested in here: the lack of an article about Phoenician Votive (or Ex-votive) Inscriptions (כתובות נדר פיניקיות) really stands out (there are articles about groups of those inscription, but not as a whole). There is also the lack of Hammon (Umm al-Amad) Inscriptions (כתובות חמון). Mizpe Yammim (מצפה ימים) and Tel Bira (תל בירה) are quite minor, but also Phoenician, and you can find English bibliography in both articles. If I see anything else I'll let you know, and I'm here for any request (just tag me). פעמי-עליון (talk) 13:49, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.
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This discussion on whether/how to include an IP's addition to the article Moloch might be of interest to members of this project.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:28, 30 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A great article! I don't want to ruin the citations system there, so I'll write it here – Vella, Nicholas (2000-01-01). "Defining Phoenician Religious Space: Oumm el-'Amed Reconsidered". Ancient Near Eastern Studies. 37 (0): 34. doi:10.2143/ANES.37.0.1081. ISSN1378-4641. writes: "Nine of twelve terracotta recovered from the Eastern Temple (of Hammon) came from the Throne Chapel. They are of the type known from the site of Kharayeb to the north of Tyre, and according to the excavators they played a part in a cult to Astarte inside the chapel". I think it is relevant to mention in in the article. I personaly couldn't access the article from the internet (although I have a wide academic access), so I took pictures of all of its pages from the original publication; if you want, I can email them to you (the whole article is very interesting, in my opinion). פעמי-עליון (talk) 21:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, not all of the Hammon inscription (he) are in Phoenician, one is in greek ("ΑΒΔΗΛΙ[ΜΟΣ] / ΤΥΡΙΟΣ Χ[ΑΙΡΕ]" [2][3][4]). פעמי-עליון (talk) 21:20, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@פעמי-עליון I'd be grateful if you do share! I want to focus my attention on Umm al-Amed and later Roman era temples at some point and any access to resources would be great. I will add the reference, thanks. el.ziade (talkallam) 10:44, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Elias great! Send me an e-mail (because I can't attach files in an email sent from Wikipeida). פעמי-עליון (talk) 11:04, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@el.ziade Dear Elias, many thanks for writing this splendid article, for using my images to illustrate it and for mentioning me in this post! Also, apologies for not responding earlier as I have been consume by the crisis in Sudan.. Unfortunately I do not have any further photos, but we plan to visit Tyre again next spring so I would be really eager to visit the place and take picture of the site as it is today. Still some time to go but in this for the long run and definitely have it now on my Lebanon-to-do-list! Best regards & wishes, RomanDeckert (talk) 11:23, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@RomanDeckert Thanks for your kind words buddy! Listen when you are in Lebanon let me know! I am in Europe now and I will not be visiting soon. Lebanese historian Charles Hayek (I don't know if you're familiar with his page "Heritage and roots" is eager to visit the site. Maybe you two can team up he is an amazing resource and I have a feeling you will enjoy his company and knowledge of the region. Thanks YOU too for your great contribs. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:19, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that a Phoenician colony should be defined by a stable Phoenician community in the place, whether they were the majority or minority, the rulers or not. This view of mine is a result of the Phoenician trading characteristics; definition based on the ruler of the city seems to me as an (unconscious) attempt to impose Greek and Roman (and later, colonialist European) behavior-based definition on the Phoenicians.
Furius thinks, if I understand correctly (correct me if I didn't), that the definition is a city of which the Phoenician were in charge.
I would generally agree with Furius, but how do reliable sources use it?--Ermenrich (talk) 21:56, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As a student of Maria Eugenia Aubet in matters regarding Phoenician settlements in the western Mediterranean, I subscribe to her views on this question, which she has addressed directly:
"The fact is that it is not easy to trace the boundaries between a colony and, for example, a commercial emporium since, in the last resort, very subjective criteria are in operation when it comes to an assessment of the different categories of colonial establishment... The term 'colonization', then, is economic and political in character insofar as it implies the emigration of groups of people to other territories where, by means of colonies or apoikíai, the residents maintain a ‘feel’ of their original community in matters of language, culture and political institutions... This model is usually contrasted with the Phoenician overseas settlement, and it is asserted that the Tyrians were not seeking to occupy land but, basically, to obtain raw materials, if possible in places that offered harbour facilities and, in addition, would guarantee an indigenous clientele with whom to exchange merchandise. In this way, by stressing the exclusively commercial character of the Phoenician diaspora, its settlements in the west are reduced to the category of mere staging posts for shipping, trading marts and merchant ports, with no other purpose than trade. Only one Phoenician foundation in the west would have come into being with the rank of colony – Carthage – since its origins are connected with a phenomenon of political assimilation of territory...[1]
So I agree with her that among Phoenician foundations in the west only Carthage attained the rank of colony. Carlstak (talk) 22:14, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with her too (and I really liked her articles I have read). I had a little confusion between colony and settlement (since in Hebrew the terms are different), and when I talked about colonies I actualy meant settlements (maybe the template sould be called "Phoenician cities and settlements"). פעמי-עליון (talk) 22:28, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@פעמי-עליון I apologize for my unavailability; there's a lot going on IRL right now. I agree with @Carlstak; previous definitions are no longer applicable, and we should exercise caution when using labels. However, I don't entirely agree with singling out Carthage as the only colony but I cannot argue against it without evidence. Hopefully, as researchers gather more evidence, it will provide clarity regarding the status of settlements in the western and central Mediterranean. Historians can only make presumptions at this stage. el.ziade (talkallam) 15:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No need to apologize :) I think there were many Phoenician colonies (in the narrow definition), but most of them were a result of the military power of QartHadasht herself. We know that there was a difference between Phoenician communities that were established in already exiting foreign cities and settlement that were established by the Phoenicians themselves, mostly for comercial popuses (like in Thucydides 6.2.6), but some became independent (Utiqa tried to gain independence under Hiram I, according to Josephus, and Carthago and Kition successfully did, as we know), and beacme what we might be able to call "colonies". So yes, I agree it's more complicated, and we definitly need more Archaeological and Epigraphic information to have a deeper prespective, but I think one of the first things we should do is using the word "settlement" instead of "colony" for most of the Phoenician inhabited places overseas. Perhaps even in the template and the categories. פעמי-עליון (talk) 16:25, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Settlement is better, I agree, but I still don't think it quite covers groups like the Phoenicians on Delos (whom, to be clear, I want to include). How about "settlements and communities"? Furius (talk) 18:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think "settlements and communities" would work. Carlstak (talk) 19:08, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So it will be "Phoenician cities, settlements and communities" - a bit long, but very accurate, I support it :) What about the categories? Should they be divided to settlements (including the very few colonies) and the communities separately? פעמי-עליון (talk) 19:26, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, it’s time to update. I also agree with the proposed title. el.ziade (talkallam) 19:53, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb FA nomination[edit]
Dears, I want to inform you that I am nominating the Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb for Featured Article status. I would greatly appreciate your input. If you have any ideas on how to enhance the article, please share them on the nomination page. el.ziade (talkallam) 15:54, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I checked some photos I have from Larnaca District Archaeological Museum and found pictures of a magnificent statue base with a Phoenician inscription and a probably unrelated Greek inscription (in Greek alphabet and not Cypriot syllabary). Sadly, I didn't catch the info label (the piture went bad). After looking for publications I found very few:
Mitford, T. B. (1961). "Further Contributions to the Epigraphy of Cyprus". American Journal of Archaeology. 65 (2): 113 ff. doi:10.2307/502666. ISSN0002-9114. (mentioning A. H. S. Megaw, "Archaeology in Cyprus, 1954", p. 31 (Supplement to JHS 75 [1955]) and reproduced by L. Robert, REG 69 (1956) 185, BullEpig no. 349. P1. 42, no. 15.", all which I couldn't find or access).
I didn't find any later mention of this inscription and it feels wierd, it makes me feel suspicious; on the other hand, if it was a forgery, the Larnaca district museum wouldn't display it. Elias Ziade, Onceinawhile, do you have further information about the inscription? I am not even sure if I should upload the photos to commons while having such littlr knowledge about it. פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 17:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@פעמי-עליון I am not familiar with the inscriptions there but if you have a good image we can reverse image search and try to identify the inscription. el.ziade (talkallam) 14:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what is reverse image search but I uploaded one of the pictures, you are welcome to use it however you want :) פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 15:30, 25 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@פעמי-עליון: Found it here. It says: "According to the Phoenician inscription on this marble base, it was dedicated in the 34th year of king Pumayyaton (328 BC). It was then turned upside down and inscribed with the Greek text. Thereafter it was carved to serve as a press."
Nice! I was looking for the Museum site and didn't find this, how did you find it?
I don't think it should be called a bilingual, because the inscriptions are not related in their content at all... פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 10:44, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great! It's in the mainspace. I'll add the photos after I upload them to commons.
Now that I think about that, the inscription must be mentioned also in Yon's Kition dans les textes, I will check it tomorrow. Thanks for the help! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 14:42, 27 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ionian Revolt has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Hog FarmTalk 18:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know any fonts? Alphabetum is one, I'd go for it if they had a/descenders. Ascenders can be of great length in inscriptions, so if they make it all flush from baseline to x-height the overall effect is very distorted. Look at the letter M in the inscriptions I look at, it's mountains to the x-height and a river coming down as a descender a distance. Earliest it's like an Egy n, water-squiggles, but in the middle it's like that. Also, is there a way I can use a tablet as character set bonus keyboard or as charmap.exe for easier input in oddball scripts? Temerarius (talk) 22:03, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Arrian mentions "Sigon" among the cities under the king of Arwad-Aradus (enel). Does anyone know where is this Sigon? פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 11:50, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It may be it is possible to identify Sigon with Qal`at Sahiyun near the village of Hafe.[28] This site was an important strategic position which controlled the road to High Syria by the pass of Bdama and Jisr al-Sughur and the Aradians who spread their influence to northern Phoenicia undoubtedly controlled this road.
Possibly unrelated but may have same root: the Amarna letters mention Sigata, which was probably small and unimportant, it must've lied north of Byblos.
It really helps, thanks! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 09:55, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"The Phoenicians - Cunning Seafarers" - College student contributions[edit]
Hello everyone, I wanted to inform you that approximately 25 students will be editing Phoenicia-related articles as part of the ongoing "The Phoenicians - Cunning Seafarers" university course hosted by College of the Holy Cross. If you notice this activity, please be patient and considerate with the newcomers. el.ziade (talkallam) 14:40, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on my prior experience with students editing WP articles, I would hope they are well-supervised by an informed professor. I've seen good work done by properly supervised students who were guided by an involved prof, and not-so-great work done by others who were let loose with no guidance.;-) Carlstak (talk) 01:12, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Carlstak 100% I hope so too so let's keep an eye and be patient. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hierombalus until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.
Hi, a user marked copyvios on Phoenician settlement of North Africa, could someone please review the article and address any potential copyright violations? Thank you! I also left a note on other WikiProjects tagged on the article's talk page. 82.169.19.7 (talk) 12:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An article which may be of interest to members of this project—Altiburus—has been proposed for merging with Althiburos. If you are interested, please participate in the merger discussion. Thank you. Mathglot (talk) 23:39, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
and thanks again Onceinawhile for the help! פעמי-עליון (pʿmy-ʿlywn) - talk 13:35, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
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