Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pokémon/Archive 7

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Archiving

Noticed the page was getting longer that perfered and archived it. Feel free to restore anything needed. I kept FFA and "Things to do until Saturday". Alvin6226 talk 02:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if it's time for another archive? It's been only a little over two weeks, and already this page is at 180 kilobytes long; The reason I'm bringing this up instead of waiting silently is that my dial-up-connection browser is actually struggling to fully open up this page. And to be frank, some sections are really cluttered. Erik Jensen (I appreciate talk!) 06:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Future Focus Articles

Next Pokémon Creature Article

They should both be good articles, it would be strange if one was good and the other wasn't. Minun (talk) 17:18, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure, just point out any problems with this article and I'll help you fix them. Minun (talk) 15:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure, just point out any problems in this article Minun (talk) 15:25, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Merge "Appearance" with intro, cleanup the videogames, prose TCG, expand anime. If you check Eevee, a Rapidash appears in the same manga chapter, it has the same plot has the Rapidash race. Yeah, Highway Rainbow Sneakers 15:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I've managed to do most of it, but there was a few parts I had trobule with. I hope my editing helps. Minun (talk) 15:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
It's certainly interesting vandalism... Highway Rainbow Sneakers 19:51, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Reverted, it's been sitting like that a week. The IP's been doing it to various articles, but he got reverted. But never warned. He is now the owner of a final warning, since I'm not in the charitable mood. Highway Rainbow Sneakers 19:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know much about the manga, but I would be happy to help with the TCG section. Minun (talk) 15:44, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Sure, just point out any problems again. Minun (talk) 17:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
I've noticed that page had a rather small amount of content. I'm improving parts of it, but I need help on the sections focusing on Paras' role in the Pokémon things I'm not into(the anime, manga, and card game) --RandomOrca2 04:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree, I think that should be our next focused article Minun (マイナン) 10:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
It lacks everything, should be our next focused article Minun (マイナン) 15:50, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I went ahead and reformatted the sections to meet the PCP standards. --Chuchunezumi 08:19, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
how's that, i did everything i could in reference to the game and anime, i don't much else about the rest of it, i'll see if i can add some media related stuff Zappernapper 17:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Chikorita with all the focus on starters i would think people would have mentioned this earlier. -Zappernapper 18:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Haunter lacks a "In the video games" section.
fixed the sections, but still needs a lot of rewriting. -Zappernapper 17:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Gengar needs a manga section, but i don't read them, can anyone else put something in? -Zappernapper 17:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Natu: Enough of a stub that it might have used the old Pokemon Adoption Center treatment twice. I'll give this my style of treatment shortly. Erik Jensen (I appreciate talk!) 19:25, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Natu has been pampered, more or less. Now someone should insert that Pokestart template to the top of the page. Erik Jensen (I appreciate talk!) 20:31, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Gyarados: The video games section gives me a headache! Uses many abbreviated obscure terms (to beginners) to describe game strategy in detail. --Brandon Dilbeck 17:14, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Yanma Has almost no references, stubbish sections, and dind't even have pokestart until I added it...--Ac1983fan(yell at me) 19:28, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Update

Did an update of all the noted articles, so people can fix what's wrong without having to ask what's wrong. If you complete something, just strike it out. Highway Daytrippers 17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

  • Blaziken - Rewrite characteristics, cover May's Torchic-->Combusken-->Blaziken (all the info can be found in the prior articles). Copy video games prose from Combusken. Referencing all round, Highway Daytrippers 17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Houndoom - remove original research on design, merge controversy and appearance into the introduction. Split the intro into 3 paragraphs. Remove POV game guide remarks from video games, describe its availbity, change the Biology section title. Expand anime section, add generic headers for TCG and anime. Change the TCG to prose, check Serebii for manga appearances. Highway Daytrippers 17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Venonat - implement {{Pokestart}}, expand on Koga's (or his assisstant's) Venonant, and expand greatly on Tracey's. Again, check the manga for Venonat, and rewrite the TCG section. Remove original research from Biology, and add better descriptions of Venonat locations. Highway Daytrippers 17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Treecko - Write content on Ash's Treecko-->Grovyle-->Sceptile, and Wally's Treecko-->Grovyle. Highway Daytrippers 17:42, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Shuppet - Implement {{Pokestart}}, move appearance description to intro, fix the name etymology. Add the sectional headers for anime and TCG, check Ivysaur for them. Check manga for Shuppet appearances, and check Psypoke's Deck Dex for TCG appearances. Reference the Pokédex, the locations bit at Psypokes, and check Max (Pokémon) for more about its anime appearance. Highway Daytrippers 07:53, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Next Miscellaneous Article

I reommend choosing Max as the next focus article. Thoughts? The Raven's Apprentice (Call) 11:25, 17 May 2006 (UTC) Other Mishaps? This article might need some help. Alvin6226 02:30, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way, that's Max (Pokémon) (obviously). And come to think of it, even Poké Ball and Team Aqua and Team Magma need help. Thoughts?? The Raven's Apprentice (Call) 07:27, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Max (Pokémon) needs the borrowed Pokémon section removed, and lots more cleanup, so it would thus be good as a miscellena next article--XenoNeon (converse) 11:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Make sure the ugly table of Pokémon is replaced with prose! Please! - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:56, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
The Pokémon character articls are now being taken care of by WP:PAC2, so we should be taking a non-character article. How about Poké Ball or Glitch City?? The Raven's Apprentice (Call) 07:43, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I think that Pokemon Ranger should be our next focus.--Ac1983fan (talk • contribs) 23:43, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Let's not do a speculative article if we can at all avoid it. Poké Ball needs a lot of love, Max (Pokémon) needs work despite the presence of WP:PAC2. and all of the glitches still need to be collapsed into a single article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:19, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
WHAT?! If the glitches are merged, we need to transwiki the original articles somewhere else. Okay, so they don't belong in an encyclopedia, but they're very informative for people who want to exploit the glitches. And they're much better than their Bulbapedia counterparts. The Raven's Apprentice (Call) 06:10, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Even Pokémon trainer needs a lot of work. The Raven's Apprentice (Call) 15:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC) The aforementioned article just needs some heavyhanded deletion. The Raven's Apprentice (Call) 11:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, lets just all point out all the problems with the article, this way we can find out which is most important, and we can help fix the article. Minun (talk) 17:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
was anyone even aware of this scary thing? i'm not even sure it really deserves it's own page. I'm tempted to speedy delete it unless someone out there thinks they can turn it into something resebling an article. Zappernapper 07:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Things to do until Saturday

  • Pokémon is a disorganized, bloated mess. Still. It may be a good idea to follow the German WP's lead in structure.
  • Pokémon (video games) is about half bulleted lists by weight. It needs a massive rewrite and decrufting.
  • Pokémon (anime) is three-quarters bulleted lists by weight, and is entirely lacking in useful structure. It's one of the most influential anime series of the 1990s and this is all we can do for it?
  • Pokémon The Electric Tale of Pikachu! and Pokémon Adventures are little better than stubs. I know we have some fans of at least the latter, reading the Chuang Yi localization; can't we do better than this?
  • Category:Pokémon images is full of unsourced and orphaned images. Source the images you can, tag the ones you can't with {{subst:nsd}}
  • The Pokémon episode articles are disgraceful. The trivia, goofs, alternate names, and first appearances all need to go immediately and the plot summaries need to be summaries and not novelizations; eventually, these probably need to be boiled down and merged to a list.
  • The members of the Elite Four still aren't merged.
  • Pokémon Ruby and Sapphire is probably a couple hours with of prose polishing and source hunting away from good article status. (C'mon, it's the best-selling GBA game ever.) It'd be nice to have a GA that was a thing that exists in the real world.
  • Satoshi Tajiri, Game Freak, Genius Sonority, The Pokémon Company, and Ken Sugimori are stubs. Creatures Inc. is ONE LINE. That's disgraceful.
  • Pokémon Trading Card Game is a trainwreck, full of unwikified textdumps, scattered trivia with little context, big ugly bulleted lists, and little info to contextualize, explain, or describe the best-selling CCG for years and years.
  • Great work is being done at Poké Ball, but more input and more hands are needed.

There's plenty to do while we wait for verification of reports on Diamond and Pearl, and most of it is more important than writing a stub about Chimecho's new evolution, wouldn't you say? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Judging by this list it shows that Lucario and Manaphy both have pre-evolutions. Showing that they are not Legendary. Should we make note of this? -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 21:37, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Sure, I guess, when we have a source better than a filb.de forum post. I'm just saying that there are both critical cleanup tasks to do and important topics that are sorely neglected, all of which are more important than rushing to cover the very latest factoids from the very latest game. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Alright. -SaturnYoshi THE VOICES 21:46, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
We might wait on that until Serebii finishes his overview of the games. Diamond and Pearl may be violating some of the traditions followed in past games. Seeing as, Dialga and Palkia are not at the end of the Pokédex like the previous legends were, it is very possible that Manaphy and Lucario are the first legends that have previous forms. The Hybrid 22:11, 26 September 2006 (UTC) Also, they have their own movies that do put them across as legends.
Manaphy is, Lucario isn't. The Hybrid

Cleaning up the episode articles

Speaking of which, I'm removing the trivia, alternate-language names, dub edits, goofs, continuity gaffes, extra images, and any other junk from the episode articles. This is leaving a trail of plot-summary-only stubs in my wake, unfortunately, but these articles are awful, and need some help immediately.

The next step is to see about structure for merging them. Anyone want to help? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

  • In my opinion, the only articles that should be merged rather than deleted are the episodes where Ash gets a badge, one of the characters gets or evolves a Pokémon, or a character (re)joins or leaves the group. Maybe the banned episodes should stay. Of course, all of this needs to be discussed before any moves are made.
  • It would probably be best to merge them by season, seeing as a general article would be huge. Another possibility is to separate them by the major event(s) of the story, if the majority agrees with me about what should be merged. A list of banned episodes already exists with synopses, so that could work as a template, and save the trouble of creating that article with completely new summaries of the episodes. The Hybrid 23:25, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Seasons are probably best, yeah. Just so you know, I'm planning on merging any article without any source of third-party commentary in reliable sources, regardless of how important it is in the anime. This neatly sidesteps arguing about whose favorite episode does or doesn't get merged; it's either important in the real world or it goes in the list. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:34, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I completely understand. In my opinion, no episodes should get their own articles, and only the notable ones should be on the list. Aside from this, it may be too tempting for anons who have a lot of time on their hands to summarize every single episode on the lists, and if we have the Mantine episode summarized on the list(my favorite :), they have a good point in asking why the Puzzle of Pokémopolis and Pinkan island episodes cannot be as well. (If you look around you'll see I have had bad experiences with both of those places; I still have seizures from time-to-time.) A little bit of confrontation here may save a many confrontations in the future. The Hybrid 05:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
there's absolutely no reason we can't list a meaningless episode, giving it's name, japanese translation and number (air date if possible) like that which is already found at List of Pokémon episodes. Hybrid, feel free to read the topic #Rhapsody in_drew_deletion was not good.... to see the the previous, lengthy, discussion on this. AMIB, that sounds like a fine solution - so that will of course include articles of the banned, edited sort? Does Pokémon, I choose you! remain important enough to keep it's own page? If anything, even if there was no big buzz about that episode, it was the one which started the poke-anime craze. oh and does ne1 know y on the List they have the numbering for american episodes starting at 2?-Zappernapper 14:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
This is due to English version numbering being the order in which the episodes were aired on the WB and later CN. Later reruns in English restored the proper order. This was stated in the first sentence of the article. kelvSYC 20:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

"Banned" articles are probably best off in the banned articles list, since this list will probably be a lot terser. Pokémon, I Choose You! gets its own article if and only if someone can say something about it that isn't plot summary. It wasn't even the first episode aired in English. (That was Pokémon Emergency, I believe.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:26, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to have to play devil's advocate here. Series that are shorter such as Futurama or Family Guy (or even more convincingly, Xiaolin Showdown) have articles for individual episodes. It can be argued that Pokémon is more notable than any of these series, and so Pokémon deserves to have individual articles for episodes. Having said that, some of these concerns are valid - we don't really need to list all the Pokémon that appear in an episode - in Entei at Your Own Risk, the entirety of Ash's team is featured, but four out of the six team members didn't do anything other help Ash escape from being trapped in a container by ramming the door (and in the end, Noctowl didn't help them escape), and even still, Phanpy was only featured in the following scene (where it battled and was subdued). We don't need goofs in continuity due to the series being highly episodic. I've always had an aversion to trivia sections, but other useful stuff such as notable content edits could still remain in the article - even Pokémon Heroes had a substantial content edit. The problem with what I see is that Pokémon is a long series, and to create 500-odd articles will take a long time. While merging episodes may be a good idea in the short term, we'd eventually have to undo them as the series becomes longer. I suggest that important plot-moving episodes should be done first, then the disconnected episodic ones later. In particular, we should have summaries of, these episodes as soon as we can, due to their character-defining moments:

Articles on invididual episodes regardless of series are by definition not of a very high quality (compare any existing article with, say, the article on the latest episode of The Simpsons), unless it was the pilot, finale, jumping the shark moment, important plot point, or it created massive public attention, or anything of the like. It's the same argument as to why we keep articles on individual Pokémon - we just simply can't get it to anything remotely feature article quality (Bulbasaur notwithstanding), but just as each Pokémon is sufficiently notable within the context of something that is itself notable, articles on individual episodes are sufficiently notable within the context of something that is itself notable (recall that Pokémon is notable also for its lengthy run as well as its association with, well, Pokémon).

kelvSYC 20:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the Simpsons and Futurama and Family Guy and Xiaolin Showdown have individual episode articles.

Now, try reading one. Here's one: North by North Quahog. Here's another example: Battle Pyramid! VS Regirock! when an anon was reverting my cleanup.

That's why I think we should steer away from that. They're useless piles of ever-more-detailed plot summary and lame trivial cruft. Plus, you're proposing a standard that is going to lead to never-ending arguments about what episodes are "character-defining," since any episode that features someone's favorite minor character is by definition going to be character-defining for that minor character.

We can't even keep all of the Pokémon articles clear of crap, despite a project having existed for years focusing on little more than just that. It's good work and it should continue, but getting in fights over hundreds and hundreds of episode articles (and for every episode there's a fan willing to fight for it and say it's important or character-defining or whatever standard we set) is a hopeless boondoggle. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:59, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

  • I believe that the dub edits, other languages, and extra images should go away. But the trivia and goofs should be okay. Just need to be cleanedup.--Ac1983fan(yell at me) 21:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The trivia and goof emphatically aren't okay. They're random things spotted in the episodes by fans, the lamest kind of original research. If a fact is truly important, mention it in the brief plot summary. If it's not important, why are we including it in an encyclopedic overview? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:27, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :*laughs at "boondoggle"* i wonder who would say that Lights, Camerupt, Action! would be "character-defining".... neways, i think a point needs to be made that at least shows of series like Simpsons, Family Guy, and Soth Park consistently deal with issues that can be discussed in an encyclopedic fashion, additionally these shows tend to maintain a strong continuity so discussing the views they express and continuity errors makes sense. Pokemon cannot make this case no matter how hard anyone tries, especially of the later episodes. Futurama's kind of iffy due to the fact you could discuss the way each episode portrays a futuristic world a la Star Trek - making commentary on current affairs affecting the future (giant garbage ball threatens to decimate Earth), but they're pushing it, and Xiolin Showdown should not have a complete episode guide - we shouldn't follow bad examples. I still see no reason why we can't maintain simple tabular lists that summarize the stories like in my sandbox. btw i updated the episode page here for those of you who've already seen it. AMIB - the first episode's cultural impact is that it was the first episode, it was the first one i saw and was what got me interested in the first place - this is true of several other people i'm sure, and what began the fad (of course few fads i know of are listed in two seperate decades...). KelvSYC, there have actually been three (?) FA that were on individual pokemon, Pikachu and Torchic, not just Bulbasaur. The reason each species was granted its own article was because it was decided that encyclopedic content could be written on each one see WP:POKEMON for the nitty gritty - encyclopedic content cannot be written on each episode of pokemon, they're too episodic like AMIB said for conitunuity errors to be anything other than cruft, and very few of them deal with any cultural issues (most notably there are episodes that deal with environmental issues, and child-rearing options). To me the only ones worth giving special treatment to are those that were banned, if only to discuss the reasons they were banned in detail, and give references. For example with the Jynx episode, we could discuss who specifically had an issue with it, and what they said in any press releases. -Zappernapper 21:49, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
ummm.... btw, i don't think merging them will be an issue, there are already pages at List of Pokémon Original Series episodes, List of Pokémon Advanced Generation episodes, and even List of Pokémon Diamond and Pearl episodes. It looks like most of what we've been watning done has already been there, just a pain to try and find :) -Zappernapper 21:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
L,C,A! is character defining for...uh...Ask's Torkoal! (Personally, I don't think Family Guy or Futurama should have episode guides on Wikipedia either, but that's neither here nor there.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:57, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
i'm inclined to agree... they push it a little, save for the fact that family guy consistently tends to do something controversial. we need to start WikiTV.org for these people. -Zappernapper 22:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Can we get back to Pokémon, please.
  • To address the question that was posted after I logged off, the reason we cannot summarize every single episode is because the articles on the seasons would be HUGE, there is almost no way to organize those into good-sized articles.
  • The first episode is notable because it is the first episode.
  • We cannot have articles on every individual episode because Pokémon is far more prone to vandalism than any of the series mentioned; try to keep those 450+ articles free of vandalism with our little group of 50 people. That is why we don't have individual articles for every episode, we have a hard enogh time as it is.
  • If we follow my plan, which it sounds like we aren't, and it is a one paragraph summary for each notable episode, then the articles will still be rather large, but they will be managable. See first bullet-point for why to keep non-notable episodes out, aside from the non-notability.
  • I have no problem with listing episode TITLES; it is summarizing them that creates a problem. The Hybrid 00:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Notable doesn't mean important. It means "sufficiently noteworthy to have independent commentary in reliable sources", and "Pokémon, I Choose You!" just doesn't cut it, since the only commentary is on fansites (not exactly reliable) or plot synoses (not exactly useful commentary). If every episode has two-three sentences, we could easily split things up by season. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

That makes my point for me. If the first episode of one of the most influential animes in American history isn't notable enough to summarize in an article, then why should other episodes less profound than that one be summarized as well. I did the math, if we have three sentences for every episode, plus another two line for episode dividers, that comes out to 475 lines in the article on the first season, plus the intro and the other sections. When you edit this page next, hit enter 475 times, that is a lot of space (I did it). Besides, are ANY Pokémon episodes outlined on non-fansites? By that logic, no episode is notable, but some are important. We are finally doing what has needed to be done for a long time; lets get it right. Rather than having three sentence summaries for every episode that maybe one person cares about as well as the important ones, lets have full, well written, eight sentence paragraphs for the important episodes and let Serebii handle the unimportant episodes. The Hybrid 01:15, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Two-three sentences = one-two lines. It really won't be as bad as it seems, really. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
...waitaminute, I just did that math. I was thinking US airing seasons, ~13 or so episodes, not Japanese-style series, which is where you're getting your 95 episodes an article. No, we will not be having synopses for 100 or so episodes in each article, that won't work. I was thinking of breaking it up smaller than that. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Pikachu, I Choose You could also use its own article, as it is the first episode of the series. Shin'ou's TTV (Futaba|Masago|Kotobuki) 01:17, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

And what do you plan to put in that article? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
the name of the episode is actually Pokémon, I Choose You, but that's a comon misconception. and other sites exist which give synopsis of episodes, such as tv.com - but that's not the point. so you want something to put in a "Reaction" section? how about reviews from Amazon? lol it was put onto a DVD you know.... i'm done for today, will be logging on tomorrow.... g'night. -Zappernapper 01:48, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

We have an article at Pokémon, I Choose You!. It's terrible.

There's just nothing to say about it. There's no critical reception, no controversy, just plain nothing in reliable sources. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Ach!2 edit conflicts... Anyways, I think that we should just merge them by season, and have a "Main article" thingy for the major episodes (badge, evolution of Pokémon, or a character (re)joins or leaves the group), the kind of episodes that A Man in Black said. Alvin6226 talk 01:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
No, no, no! I don't want articles for those. Absolutely, positively, unequivically not. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh. I guess that is my opinion then. But am also fine with the merge by seasons without seperate major episode articles, because my way would be a lot more work.. Alvin6226 talk 02:07, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


Three questions will the images be back on the episode lists or will they be deleted, or will they be on the separate episode page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yugigx60 (talk • contribs)

Probably deleted, and there won't be separate episode pages. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:48, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


"::::No, no, no! I don't want articles for those. Absolutely, positively, unequivically not. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:59, 28 September 2006 (UTC)"

    • How says that you have the authority on what we can and can not do (pages).. We as contributors can do want we want (expect vandalizing) so if we want to do episode pages that have the (badge, evolution of Pokémon, or a character (re)joins or leaves the group).

Hey if you'll want to work on (badge, evolution of Pokémon, or a character (re)joins or leaves the group) pages you can. (72.177.68.38 13:07, 29 September 2006 (UTC))



    • Please keep the images, all (most)of the other anime episode lists have images:

So if other animeepisode pages have images, why can't the Pokemon series??


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