Talk:Asmahan

Real Concerns

Ameer: It seems to me that you are not checking the article before responding to SD's repeated complaints. He's removing reliably sourced paragraphs and even bringing back spelling errors, so it is he who is blanket reverting. I had taken care of some of the words that were too close to the source in my own edits. He should do the same with his own edits, not mine, and point out where I have missed any in mine, not blanket revert. This is not acceptable. The Role in WWII section has now been significantly expanded. He cannot just blanket revert it for no reason. Zuhur states, in Images of Enchantment, about Asmahan's marriage, "She relocated to the Jabal", which according to SD's own definition of the word, means that she had not lived there before. I have accepted a compromise and used the neutral words "moved to" and "residence in". If SD will not accept the compromise, I will insist on using "relocated" in both instances. Please pardon my tough stance, but this is beyond ridiculous. Regards, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 17:43, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

It's ok AC, I know this is getting on everyone's nerves. I just took a look at the most recent change. Now SD, what's wrong with AC's changes? Which edits in particular? One that I personally found that might be of a concern is the removal of "allegedly" and the reinstatement of "handsome". Handsome because it's a POV, and "allegedly" because SD had told me that the source says that. Also, this should be kept: "decision to try and terminate her pregnancy". it maintains the meaning of what the source says in a rewritten form. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:02, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, the source does not use the word "allegedly" and I quoted that source as "one source states, while other sources state"... etc. with reliable references. Again, please do not believe SD; he's misleading you. I know I had copied the word "handsome" from some source, but it is ok to remove it in the meantime. I reworded "decision to try and terminate her pregnancy" to stop all the nagging about plagiarism. Which way does he want it? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, This is my problems with ACs edits:

1.He removed the "return" and "moved back" on several areas, you said it was okey to keep when I did that list yesterday, also notice that he said that Sherifa Zuhur used "relocated" but in Asmahans Secrets she used "returned" so hes claims that it was not a "return" is false because the same author uses this word, and therefore is deletion of it is not acceptable, especially since I have not agreed to this.

This is the compromise, that Ameer has called for, between "relocated" (from Zuhur's Images of Enchantment) and your "returned". I used "moved to" and "residence in" as neutral words. If you do not accept the compromise, I will use "relocated". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

You do not decide this, this is not your article and you do not own it. Sherif Zuhur used "returned" in Asmahans Secretes and that was what Asmahan did. You have no right to delete this when there was no agreement. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

And Zuhur used "relocated" in Images of Enchantment, hence the compromise. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit war is not compromise, and Ameer was not told that the word "returned" was used in Asmhans Secrets "Her family fled her homeland, Syria, and she grew so accustomed to Cairo that she longed for it after her marriage and return to Syria." http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Again, go with the compromise. I said "went to", but "moved to" is actually better so use the latter for a compromise. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, this is an important word and AC demanded its deletion on false claims, why should this so called compromise be when the same author uses it for her return to Syria? "she longed for it after her marriage and return to Syria." You said before if I remember correctly, that he should ask for a third opinion, he did not and just removed it, he forced it his way. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought she also uses "relocated" in the other book? Because of this, I suggested that instead of using either word, we compromise. Now, whoever disagrees with this compromise could go to another admin (with virtually no editing history on this subject) for guidance completely on par with Wikipedia policy. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:08, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

She says relocate in one book, and she says return to Syria in Asmahns Secrets,, Ameer right now it says in the article "During two bouts of marriage to her cousin and residence in Syria, Asmahan's musical career would come to a complete halt" this imply that she only lived in Syria twice, since Zuhur used "return to Syria" this goes against what the author has said.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:14, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

This, I okay'd, right? The compromise I suggested was confined only to this sentence where it now says "So, she moved to Syria, at which time she was nineteen." It's not a big deal to me whatever you guys use, but I suggest compromise to prevent edit wars in this article, maintain its stability. If either of you continue to have any concerns about the usage of those words, there's really not much more I could say about it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:27, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

AC changed other sections from "During two bouts of marriage to her cousin and moving back to Syria" to "residence in Syria" and then to "relocation in Syria" .. not only goes this against the mediation as you said to only change that sentence when she was 19, but it also goes against what is written in Asmahans Secrets, quote "The family had a servant to help with the children, who were allowed to play pretty much where they willed. A large stone house blended in with the local surroundings, dominated as they were by the gray and stony landscape." .. a large stone house.. so her residence in Syria was more then those two times she was married --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 06:31, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

No, this was changed from my original "relocation in", according to Zuhur, to "residence in" as a compromise. If you do not like it, we can also say "move to". --Arab Cowboy (talk) 06:57, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, refers to all instances about Asmahan's marriage in Syria. SD, please stop cluttering the conversation and misleading Ameer with your continuous nagging. You're welcome to accept the compromise of neutral word (move to, residence in, etc.) in these instances or continue to ask for another admin's judgment if you do not agree. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

2. "told Muhammad al-Tabaʿi" .. its not appropriate to say this because no one has any idea who this guy is. Original sentence that Diaa had added was "Later in life, when Asmahan spoke about her childhood "

This is copied from the source. al-Taba'i was Asmahan's biographist. Do not truncate to suit your agenda. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The reader of the article have no idea who he is. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:52, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

He can be defined, but the context of the statement must be maintained. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

This is not a problem, just say in the article "Biographer Muhammad al-Taba'i...". --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, AC changed it so it can now be counted as plagiarism, he changed it to "Later in life, Asmahan told her friend Muhammad al-Tabaʿi about her childhood in the Jabal." and also added "family's" to the section which is also in the source, this resembles the book so much that it is plagiarism, compare this to the book which says: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut." Therese a reason why Diaa changed it to "Later in life, when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in the Jabal, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period. Although she did not spend much time in the Jabal and remembered only visits in the early 1920s, the Jabal was what she saw as her "home" rather than her residences in Lebanon and Turkey" please go into the article and compare. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

SD, regarding plagiarism, please concern yourself with the text that you added only, not what I did. You've copied straight from the source and insisted that words I added matched the source exactly on many occasions. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

3.In the Egypt influence section the sentence expanded in the source, he removed it. "But that loyalty is difficult to measure, since the dependence on the Egyptian elite...." In the source this is right after "the other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt." part.

This is clearly Zuhur's opinion, not fact. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Authors opinions must be put higher then your own views and the context of the statement must be maintained. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, no need for the author's opinion. Just state it plainly. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, in the book it says "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt. That loyalty is hard to measure"... so if the "That loyalty is hard to measure" is authors opinion.. isn't also "the other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt." also authors opinion? This is in the article right now. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

4. The role in WW2 section, the only source anyone can read says this "Some claimed that she was rewarded with 40,000 pounds (roughly US$72,000) for her service to the Allies, but there is no evidence in any of the sources on her life, or the British documents on the period, to show that she actually received money for the mission" the links AC brought can not be viewable and he has written this section in a very unprofessional way.

You do NOT have to be able to read the sources online. However, some of the sources I used are indeed online and you can go see them. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Since some of the sources dispute it, put "allegedly" (like we do in tons of articles on Wikipedia, nothing new). --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

AC has changed that whole section to the extent with his obscure sources (That no one can read) that it have to be rewritten, could you please read that section and come up with a solution? The source I brought is viewable: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JI20Ak04.html --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Again, you do not have to be able to read the sources online. However, here are quotations from what you call "obscure sources". From al-Raida, p. 42: "She received a great deal of money for this mission, 40000 pounds according to one source. The British and the French were much less interested in Asmahan ...", and from Mardam Bey's book: "Collet mentioned British inteference in the Jabal Druze, how they used the wife of Hasan al-Atrash, the famous singer and actress, best known by the name of Asmahan, he said that they gave her money and sent her to the Jabal before the invasion to enlist the support of the Druse. He also recounted the occasion when the British had paid cash to several men (in his presence) to advance their interests." What else do you need to stop your nagging? --Arab Cowboy (talk) 16:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

5. And I had re written two sections and removed plagiarism that he reverted:

"The Allies expelled the Vichy forces from Syria, however, during her stay at a Damascus hotel, Asmahan got death threats from what was believed to be pro-Vichy Druze. She managed to flee on horseback, in disguise as a cavalier and rode to the Palestinian border. After the Allies secured Syria during the Syria-Lebanon Campaign, she went back to Damascus where she participated in the parades, and when General Charles de Gaulle visited Syria, she sat behind him during the celebrations. "

"The Allies failed to carry out their promise for Syrian independence and Asmahan, displeased, headed for Ankara, where she wanted to meet Nazi Germanys ambassador to Turkey. But she was stopped at the border by the British and was deported to Lebanon. " --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:20, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Those were my sentences. I reworded some to stop your nagging. If you have concerns about specific phrases or statements, list them here. I do not see plagiarism in them as I wrote them. They are properly sourced. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:40, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

No those were sentences copied almost straight from the source, and I re wrote them.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

It was I who had introduced those statements into the article. I do not see any plagiarism in them. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, check the source, they are almost exact copy to what AC had written--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 19:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I will read the source in a minute, but let me just state right off the back that it's best to rewrite text as much as possible to avoid plagiarism while keeping the source's intended interpretation so as not to drift in original research. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

so? if you have not read it yet you can compare them with the source here: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JI20Ak04.html The quotes here are mine, and the quotes in the article now is his. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggestions

After reading all of this, I've become a little dizzy. So I decided not to answer underneath each statement. To reply to concern #1, I'm sticking with my original response; compromise with that one instance, leave the rest alone. It's really not a big deal at all whichever word(s) is used. For #2, I thought al-Taba'i was her biographer. In any case just put "her friend Muhammad al-Taba'i ..." For concern #3, either use no opinion at all, or keep both but attribute them to the author i.e. "According to biographer Sherifa Zuhur..." For #4, as a personal policy, any time one source is contradicting the other I use "allegedly". This won't be necessary if we use attribution instead i.e. "According to such-and-such, Asmahan loved hummus-wa-ful, however, such-and-such2 claims she only liked it because she was trying to befriend the cook." Sorry if that sounds goofy, but you guys get the picture. As for #5, I support rewriting (that's the norm on Wikipedia) especially to word it differently than the source. AC, if the text in question is indeed your original work, apparently it is very close to the source. Therefore, I suggest you make some rewording adjustments. Be patient SD, and just let AC rewrite that bit. If he doesn't, kindly remind him to do it.

Brothers, I will not continue to mediate between you on this article (and probably won't participate in the discussions on other Arab singers). I hope I've done more good than bad and if you are not willing to adhere to what I suggested above, the only other alternative I see left would be filing a request for comment. Salam, --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:42, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Ameer. Yes, you've done more good than bad. I will rewrite my sections in the weekend to word more differently than the source. I am busy till the weekend, so no pressing me on this till then. Salam, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 18:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks and no problem AC. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:48, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Ameer, I meant to say that you've done no bad at all... As for the specific suggestions: 1. The second sentence that you would like to leave alone also refers to Asmahan's marriage to Hassan and relocation to Syria. One Zuhur source said "relocated" and another said "return". I compromised by saying "residence in" Syria. It's your call. 2. al-Taba'i was Asmahan's friend, admirer and biographer. In the specific instance where that quotation was made, Zuhur used "friend and admirer". But he also wrote a biography (book) on Asmahan. 3. I do not care much about that one. 4. I used your preferred method: one source said such and such and the other said so and so. All is reliably sourced, so I think no change is warranted. 5. I will re-rewrite as much as possible, but then SD will come back and say these are not the words used in the sources... It's a dilemma. But please all be patient on this one as my time is limited. Salam, --Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Number 3. SD has just removed the wrong sentence. I restored it. The sentence in reference was "whether her patriotism was hard to measure or otherwise", to which I commented was Zuhur's opinion. If SD will stop being so smart, we can bring this matter to an end. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 19:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

N3 3, Old: Actually, no need for the author's opinion. Just state it plainly. --Al Ameer son (talk) 04:06, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Ameer, in the book it says "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt. That loyalty is hard to measure"... so if the "That loyalty is hard to measure" is authors opinion.. isn't also "the other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt." also authors opinion? This is in the article right now. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 12:13, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

'Ameer' New:For concern #3, either use no opinion at all, or keep both but attribute them to the author i.e. "According to biographer Sherifa Zuhur..." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 20:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Stop messing with the sentence about her patriotism to Egypt. The sentence in reference was whether her patriotism was difficult to measure. Ameer's statement was to state it plainly. I prefer removing it altogether. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 20:38, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism issues

This article was listed at WP:CV for copyright violations in the "Role in World War II" section. A quick review reveals the text is a direct plagiarism of this source. The entire section is a close paraphrasing of the original newspaper article. For example:

The article text reads: The Allies reneged on their promises for Syrian independence and Asmahan, disgruntled, shifted allegiance to the Nazis.

The source states: The Free French reneged on their promise of independence and a disgruntled Asmahan shifted her allegiance to the Nazis in revenge.

The next sentence in the article reads: Asmahan embarked on a train journey to Ankara, where she wanted to meet Hitler's ambassador to Turkey and master of Nazi espionage in the Middle East.

The next sentence in the source reads: She boarded a train and headed to Ankara, where she wanted to meet Franz von Papen, Hitler's ambassador to Turkey and master of Nazi espionage in the Middle East.

It should be noted that simply altering sentence structure or using synonyms does not relieve text of plagiarism. A finding of plagiarism doesn't require exact wording, but takes into account the structure, format and content of the presentation of an idea -- as well as the quantity of similarities. Please read WP:Close paraphrasing for further information. I have currently blanked the section to avoid the problem of copyright violation and recommend that it be rewritten, from scratch, using only original language, without the direct benefit of the source text. I have not yet checked to see whether other portions of this article have the same problem and will need to be resolved in the same way. — CactusWriter | ^needles 14:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

More plagarism in Asmahan article

Original line in article mediator had written was: "Later in life when Asmahan spoke about her childhood in Suwayda, she remembered it as a happy and carefree period, although she did not spend much time in the Jabal, it was what she saw as her "home" rather then Lebanon or Turkey"

Although this is close to what the source is, user Arab Cowboy changed it so it resembled the source even more : "Later in life, Asmahan told Muhammad al-Tabaʿi about her childhood in the Jabal. She remembered it as a happy and carefree period. Although she did not spend much time in the Jabal and she might have recalled visits in the early 1920s, it was what she saw as her "home" rather than her residences in Lebanon and Turkey."

Source: Asmahans Secrets p 36: "In her late twenties, Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze. She remembered a happy and carfree period. She did not actually spend much time in the Jabal itself and probably remembered visits in early 1920s. Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness, rather than her family's residences in Turkey and in Beirut.

http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=Adham%20Khanjar%20Incident&f=false

Also in the Egypt influence section in a quote it says "(although she was in reality a third cousin, twice removed)" in the source it says "although she was actually a third cousin twice removed" http://books.google.se/books?id=Eca2pXOX-F8C&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Adham+Khanjar+Incident&source=bl&ots=A8mYmpk5VC&sig=0AUqXfiPIaM7VndOFkIsJIcYnD8&hl=sv&ei=4spRStfPOKWKmwPQy6ioBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#v=onepage&q=Adham%20Khanjar%20Incident&f=false

and also the sentence "The other side of her patriotism belonged to Egypt." in the source it says "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt" Third section under "Syrian or Egyptian?" part http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exzuhasp.html --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:37, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The first example you list is plagiarism. The mediator's sentence, unfortunately, also alters the original meaning of the source, because the commas in the sentence attribute thoughts to Asmahan that are actually made by the author. By returning the periods, the revision by AC actually returns the sentence more closely to the source's meaning but it is obviously still plagiarism. The problem here is attempting to paraphrase the source -- rather than simply stating the important fact. The sentence should read: Asmahan later recalled her childhood years in the Jabal as "untouched by anything truly bad". Everything else is either trivial or the author's speculation. WP only provides factual information -- and should allow the reader to draw their own conclusions.

The second example is not plagiarism. It is a quote. However, it is sloppy writing on the part of the source's author. Parenthetical insertions into quotes should be avoided whenever possible. In this article, that quote should be paraphrased.

The third example is plagiarism. Especially because it is then followed by Egypt was a planetary distance from the small villages of the Druze. which is a direct copy from this text. In fact, as I look through the article, it appears most everything sourced to this text might be plagiarized. Unfortunately, it is possible that I will need to blank most of this article as a copyright violation and that the article will need to be rewritten from scratch. I will need to look further. — CactusWriter | ^needles 15:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Cactus please edit the article into the changes you suggest, but only remove the parts you know are plagarism. Concerning the first line " Still, it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness" is how Asmahan felt. And isnt "The other side of her patriotism was to her adopted country, Egypt" author's speculation? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I do not have the time to edit this article for you - too many other CV problems to attend, I'm afraid. The contributing editors must take responsibility for revising the copyrighted text. (Note: if you are suggesting to use the line about "her consciousness", than that would be wrong. No one knows what was in her consciousness. The line about her patriotism is also an awkward POV statement -- which is fine for the author's book but not an encyclopedia. You should stick with the facts of exactly what she did or said. Nothing more. No interpretations. It appears from the lengthy discussion on this talk page that is the crux of the disagreement on this article. Two editors who are attempting to interpret actions from different POVs. If the text simply stuck to the facts, then I believe there would be very little bickering about all these tiny issues.) — CactusWriter | ^needles 09:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

But this was what she said: "Asmahan told her friend and admirer al-Tab`i about her childhood in the mountains of the Druze"... "it was the Jabal Druze that had imprinted itself as "home" on her consciousness" will you blank the plagiarized sections so I will know witch ones to rewrite?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 09:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something from the source you list above, that is clearly not a quote from Asmahan. It is not something she said. That is an interpretation by the author. The only quote there is "I felt untouched by anything truly bad". Yes, I inform about the sections, but because the text is intertwined, it is most likely that the entire sections will need to be rewritten -- not individual sentences. — CactusWriter | ^needles 09:35, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I have changed some things as you said, replaced the consciousness sentence, I don't think the early life section (excluding emigration to Egypt) have any more plagiarism issues, please say if they do. I removed the "awkward POV statement" about her patriotism and removed the parenthetical insertion in the quote, and some other fixes, but I still believe there are a lot of plagiarism in that section and also elsewhere. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:43, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

• (outdent) I received this following question on my talk page and am moving it here for the sake of open discussion:

The issue is that the whole article is written in the same way. SD had alerted you only to sentences that do not suit his agenda, but if you apply the same standards to the whole article, then it should all be tagged or deleted. Tagging just the one section and removing statements that SD does not like is selective. So, what do you suggest. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:06, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Arab Cowboy, please read my initial statement. The CV report encapsulated the one section titled World War II. I determined the entire section was plagiarized and stated it would need to be rewritten from scratch. I also said "I have not yet checked to see whether other portions of this article have the same problem and will need to be resolved in the same way." However, I do note that the large copy-paste into the Role in World War II was created by you with this edit. I suspect that there have been other copy-pastes as well. If it appears that the copy-pasting has come from one editor, than it is common practice to try and save an article by restoring to a point before that editor's involvement. If others editors are involved, and a point prior to the addition of plagiarized text cannot be found, than the article is stubbed and rewritten from start. — CactusWriter | ^needles 11:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Cactus, the Role in WWII section had changed significantly since the 11 July edit to which you refer. All sentences had been paraphrased and a lot of other information had been added. There are many more sentences in the article that are significantly closer to the sources than in this particular section. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 11:57, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Please read the entire discussion above so it isn't necessary to keep repeating the same statements. As I explained above, simply altering sentence structure or using synonyms does not relieve text of plagiarism. A finding of plagiarism doesn't require exact wording, but takes into account the structure, format and content of the presentation of an idea -- as well as the quantity of similarities. Please read WP:Close paraphrasing for further information. The examples I gave above are from August 18 and are clear plagiarism -- despite any subsequent editing since you added the text. It appears that entire section is a copyright violation created by your edit July 11. Let's be clear, adding copyrighted text at anytime is violation of Wikipedia copyright policy. — CactusWriter | ^needles 13:06, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not disputing your standards about plagiarism, but by the same token, the whole article is plagiarized. Then we should not be selective in tagging just one section of it. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:44, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Only the sections "written" by AC is plagiarism, as he have copied the texts. The first part of the early life (excluding Immigration to Egypt) section is written by me and partly I think by Ameer , that part is not plagiarism.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:47, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a lie. I demand a review of the whole article. Same standards should apply to all or none at all. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 13:50, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Further review

At this time, the earliest addition of copyrighted material that I find is this dif made by User:Al Ameer son on 5 July 2009. The excerpt Fahd suggested naming her "Bahriyya" (meaning "of the sea" in Arabic), but her mother objected and decided to name her "Amal", meaning "hope". is taken directly from this source. Unfortunately, because of subsequent additions of copyrighted text throughout the article, and further edits on top of those, it will be almost impossible to weed out the plagiarism in the current version. To save as much of the original article as possible, it will need to be reverted to this dif from July 3. The text from the current version will still be in the history for some days before being purged. In this way, if some sections are certain to be free of plagiarized text, they can be copied and returned. However, any editor who restores copyrighted text or plagiarized text to the article will be held responsible for violating Wikipedia copyright policy. I am sorry to see the hard work of so many editors undone, but it appears the only solution. — CactusWriter | ^needles 15:06, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok cactus, thanks, Ameer is an administrator so im surprised at that.

Everyone makes the occasional error. — CactusWriter | ^needles 09:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Im pretty sure this is not plagarism: "Asmahan was born to Fahd al-Atrash, a Syrian Druze from Suwayda, and 'Alia al-Mundhir, a Lebanese Druze from Hasbaya.[7] Her father—who came from the Druze al-Atrash clan, well-known in Syria for its role in fighting against the French occupation["

And this one may have some similarities but I don't think its plagiarism, could you check so I can be sure?: "Following the 1922 Adham Khanjar incident, fighting between French and Syrian forces erupted in the Jabal al-Druze. During the hostilities, the French shelled the al-Atrash home in the town of al-Qrayya, near Suwayda. Due to the conflict 'Alia fled with her children for Damascus and refused to return. Fahd sent his cousin Salim al-Atrash to return her and their children to the Jabal, but 'Alia refused to come back, stating Fahd would be cursed for the deaths of their children, who might be killed in the fighting there.[15] Asmahan later recalled her childhood years in the Jabal as "untouched by anything truly bad"." source: [[1]] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 15:20, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

From what I can see, neither of those is a copyright violation from that source. — CactusWriter | ^needles 15:48, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

First line have this as source p 81: [[2]]

For the second part, small correction, it is the page under this, p38 source: [[3]]--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

According to the sourced page, your second statement is false. The source does not say that Alia cursed Fahd. She cursed Salim saying that Salim's children would die. It is all very trivial anyway. The passage could simply state: Following the Adham Khanjar incident in 1922, the al-Atrash home in al-Qrayya was bombed by French forces. 'Alia fled with her children to Damascus. Despite orders from Fahd, 'Alia refused to return. Asmahan later recalled her childhood years in Jabal al-Druze as "untouched by anything truly bad". — CactusWriter | ^needles 09:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Temp

I suggest working on Asmahan/temp, rephrasing and changing structures to remove the copyvios, instead of just starting over.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 08:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Diaa abdelmoneim. Wikipedia does not permit the recreation of any page which has been determined to contain copyright violations -- this includes any userspace as well as the the page you just created. I am required to delete it. Sorry.

As I said above, our copyright violations policy suggests that in cases where there have been multiple infringements over many edits, try to restore the article to the last version in which there were no violations. That is what was done. Additionally, I returned some obviously original writing like the recent consensus version of the intro, infobox, refs, etc. Again, I find it sad that so much hard work during that past month must be reverted. However, Wikipedia takes copyright violation very seriously and this was the necessary solution.

I suggest looking into the history at recent versions, and work on sections one at a time. After rewriting to remove plagiarism, copy it into the new article. (A word of caution: editors can be held responsible for re-adding any text which still has copyrighted or plagiarized text) I suggest reading WP:Close paraphrasing to understand that rephrasing and altering sentence structure does not relieve text of plagiarism. A finding of plagiarism doesn't require exact wording, but takes into account the structure, format and content of the presentation of an idea -- as well as the quantity of similarities. I hope you and the other editors will be able jump in and restore the article. — CactusWriter | ^needles 09:44, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

some issues

Hey cactus, I have added some texts, but there are problems with sources nr 7, there is some kind of error.

Also there are two things I would like to ad, they both resemble the source very much and I cant figure out how to rewrite them any better so I wanted to check with you first and maybe you can come with your own suggestion. My example: "The dependence on the Egyptian elite forced Asmahan and other singers to sing praising songs for the king and of national themes."

Source: Asmahans Secrets p 13: quote "she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes."

my example "She always mentioned her father and Sultan al-Atrash to clarify her ancestry—once saying to a friend: "Don't you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al Atrash and cousin to the Amir al Atrash and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash."

Source: Asmahans Secrets p 37: "Later in her life, Asmahan always refereed to her relative, Sultan al-Atrash, along with her father, to assert her lineage and status, and to substantiate her ability to act for the British. She told a friend, "Dont you know who I am? Why I am the daughter of Fahd al-Atrash and cousin (although she was actually a third cousin twice removed) to the Amir al-Atrash (Hassan) and the Druze revolutionary hero Sultan al-Atrash""

Is this ok? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:07, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you work on rebuilding the early life section first. After that is complete, then move forward to the next section, proceeding in a linear fashion. The reference error is caused by a broken link. I changed them to Harv style. — CactusWriter | ^needles 14:19, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I think I'm done with the early life section. Can you answer at my suggestions? --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

The first passage is plagiarism. It is a close construct of the original sentence and idea. More problematic, the word "forced" alters the meaning and creates a negative connotation that is not in the original source. Most importantly, you should stop picking random sentences from a source, altering their structure and adding them to the text. Why do you want to include that single sentence? It was part of an entire chapter explaining the author's idea. You should to read the entire chapter, understand what the source is saying, and then summarize it in one or two sentences using your own words. It s best to ask yourself, "what was the author's conclusion?", and that write that.

I am surprised that the early life is done already. I recall there was a lot about the immigration to Egypt and the family's early life there. Isn't the early life incomplete without that? — CactusWriter | ^needles 19:55, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I saw you deleted the page Diaa had created, here is something else. I don't know if this is the same page or something else and you maybe missed it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Asmahan/temp

That sentence about her "being required" to sing fits in the "Asmahan and her debut" section about her singing. You said that the author's idea in that chapter was awkward pov and did not belong in an encyclopedia so why should I summarize it? But she "being required" to sing is a fact, and fits in anywhere about her signing, so that's why I would like to ad it. Do you have any rewritten suggestions for it?

I have already added that they emigrated to Palestine and then to Egypt. Something should indeed be added about they're early life there but I did not ad that text from the beginning and I am not able to rewrite texts in a good way. (I am not a native speaker of english) --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:10, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

The problem with emphasizing only a single sentence is that it misses the overall point the author was making in the chapter. The way I understand it the point of the entire chapter entitled "Syrian or Egyptian?" is that Asmahan was proud of her Syrian heritage, but it was the freedom of being Egyptian which allowed her to flourish as a singer and actress. Of course, I have only read a few chapters and am not an well-versed on her life. I am moving this entire conversation to Talk:Asmahan so that more knowledgeable editors can help you. — CactusWriter | ^needles 19:41, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

Understand the source

The following sentence is out-of-context and a misunderstanding of the source material:

To get the support from Egypts highest class, Asmahan was obligated to sing tribute songs about Egypt and the rulers of Egypt (p 13 Zuhur 2000 )

It appears on page 13 of Zuhur's book. That is the introduction in which Zuhur is making generalized statements about the author's own difficulties in trying to assess the life of Asmahan. It is not the author's intent to describe Asmahan but rather a generalized statement about Egyptian culture. The biography of Asmahan doesn't actually begin until Chapter 1 on page 24. The inclusion of that sentence makes as much sense as including the following sentence which also appears in Zuhur's introduction:

Biographies of Asmahan suggest she was happier being an Egyptian than a Syrian. p. 19 Zuhur 2000

Please read and understand the entire book before summarizing the source. Simply cherry picking sentences is inappropriate. — CactusWriter | ^needles 11:29, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Its a factual statement that was made on page 13, the rest of that section is zuhurs own opinions and not facts. : quote: "she and other singers were dependent upon the Egyptian elites, as were the recording studios. They were required to sing songs of praise for the king and his line and other songs with republican themes." The second sentence you mention is the author Zuhurs own interpretation of texts and can not be compared with the fact that she was "required to sing songs of praise" --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 17:41, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Understand that the entire book is an opinion. It has the author's POV as do all biographies. It is a secondary source -- an analysis and interpretation by the author. Summarizing that analysis requires understanding the entire context -- that is fair to the author as well as the subject -- and, unfortunately, requires more work than simply cherry-picking single sentences, paraphrasing them and sliding them into a article. Because the principles of fact and tone of writing work hand-in-hand, not all facts are equal. The sentence you cite is a throw-away line in the introduction. Do panegyrics play an important role in her career? If so, then the author will certainly have expanded on this in greater depth in the actual biography. — CactusWriter | ^needles 12:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

How is "They were required" a POV from the author? You want it removed?--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 13:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

At the moment, it seems to pop out to me as a generalized negative bias towards an old Egyptian custom without imparting anything significant about Asmahan. So I'm trying to get a grip on how the idea of panegyrics was important specifically for her. It isn't as if we are talking about the singers and actors who collaborated with the nationalism instituted by Nasser. I would think that Farouk's 1930s push for preservation of traditional Arab music and the westernization of Egyptian music in 1930s would be of far more significant impact on her career than the ancient institution of panegyrics. It seems Asmahan's dislike of singing to public audiences and her willingness only to accept payment for singing on film were much greater factors as well. — CactusWriter | ^needles 13:55, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not know why he removed Beirut and Palestine, they were both referenced. Relocated or returned - either way -- because the reader will already understand that she lived there as a child. The "required to sing" was still being discussed, but as you know, I found it fairly meaningless anyway. And if you are talking about the "princely family" paragraph, not only is that meaningless to the biography, it appears to be an extreme fringe viewpoint. The Al-Taba'i book (which was written in 1965, only republished in 2009) was mostly discredited by Zuhur. Any other source lists Al-Atrash as Amir, Prince, Druze leader, etc. — CactusWriter | ^needles 20:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I removed Beirut and Palestine because 'Alia did not "move to" them. They were merely stops on her way to Egypt. She passed through Haifa to board the train. These were not immigrations, so how are they of any significance? Moreover, my understanding of multiple sources is that Asmahan did not live in Syria as a child, but only went there for visits. I think that the comment about the Atrashes not being a princely family is extremely important and corrects a lot of misconceptions. Most people think that they were. Al-Taba'i affirms that they were not, and their "Ameer" title was a manipulation of the word "Le Maire". I give much more weight to Al-Taba'i's biography than Zuhur's. He was Asmahan's best friend and one-time fiance. She relied on him on an almost daily basis and in her most difficult times. He wrote from first hand account. I have read his book and I find it factual and very credible, unlike Zuhur's which is mostly POV. On the contrary Zuhur was herself quetsioned as an academic. --Arab Cowboy (talk) 09:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)