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Supreme Deliciousness[edit]

Supreme Deliciousness has been caught using meatpuppetry to edit this page as confirmed on this page in violation of his topic ban. Users are cautioned to not edit on Supreme Deliciousness's behalf. Nefer Tweety (talk) 22:19, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

No, I talked with the drafter of the arbitration case Wizardman, I explained to him that when I previously got blocked was because of a misunderstanding. He has now told me that I am allowed to ask a neutral person to take a look at points of correction I have posted at the talkpage.--Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:56, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
It is not editing on his behalf. nableezy - 22:27, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Let's please focus on the subject and stop accusations of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry. A very recent CU revealed no single sign of sockpuppetry from anyone (Medjool's case excluded). Also, there's no apparent "editing on anyone's behalf" although I could notice a problematic persistence on the ethnicity/nationality of a couple of singers. Those are signs of wp:SPA. At least, if you wish to continue working as a SPA, capitalize on the strengths of that role, particularly as regards sources and stop accusations.

So please, why not discuss your sources, arguments and everything you have here and let other experienced contributors such as Nishidani, Nableezy and others help with advising and editing? -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 01:59, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Am I acceptable as an honest broker?[edit]

Supreme Deliciousness has asked me to have a look at some of the issues raised above. I'm aware that Nefer Tweety has had issues with the fact that I was contacted by SD and in turn contacted Nishidani. This isn't a topic area of which I am previously aware. (In fact I had assumed that the subject was a place until today.) Having not looked at the details of the dispute, I don't know whether I will agree with SD, NF or neither of you. I am willing to look at things as an honest broker. But, I want to make sure that NF will accept anything I say as a good faith comment. If everything I say that (s)he doesn't like is going to be put down as my being a meatpuppet of SD, then I can live without the aggravation. Of course, the powers that be may take their own view of any such assumption of bad faith.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:11, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Peter, I have already asked the drafter of the arbitration case Wizardman, and he told me that I am allowed to invite a neutral editor to take a look at points of corrections I have presented at the talkpage. Another arb Shell Kinney has said the same thing [1], and a third arb, Faysal, has said the same thing here above, that other experienced editors can review the issues, and also to stop accusations of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry.[2] Those accusations are also violations of the cases decorum. You know that you are a honest and neutral editor and thats all that matters. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 01:17, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
Peter, thank you for your message on my talk page. SD has for the last 9 months made every effort to be the sole editor of Asmahan and other pages in the Asmahan arbitration case. Other editors are either banned from contributing or are completely disgusted by SD's ways that they are staying away for the time being. You cannot achieve consensus under these circumstances. Any input from you on behalf of SD will be one-sided and far from agreement and is therefore not neutral and will reflect only SD's input and will be subject a lot of more disputes. While you may be an unbiased editor, you cannot be a neutral broker while SD has harassed all other opinion to the point where they are no longer contributing. Your innocent "mediation" will be only a powder keg waiting to explode. I, personally, have no time for more endless arguments on the talk pages, however, I will revert any statements that have not received consensus with all parties prior to the arbitration.SD is subject to a topic ban specifically related to Asmahan due to his extremely disruptive behavior, while I am not under any restriction. While I am busy to be a regular contributor, I cannot allow SD's continued pushing of a Syrian agenda. -- Nefer Tweety (talk) 07:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Several of the points of corrections I presented at the talkpage there has already been repeated mediation and consensus over, and the consensus was edit warred away. AC has also already replied to the points at the talkpage so his position is clear: [3] --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 22:30, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Continuing disruption[edit]

I presented the corrections at the talkpage and got a neutral editor to take a look, look at nr 4 in corrections: [4] I presented my suggestion and linked to the source in the book and Nishidani came with a suggestion following the source and added it to the article, now the Newer Tweety account has changed that sentence to "stopped in" against what we talked about, and against what the source say, [5] Nefer Tweety has done this without participating at the talkpage, he just changed what me and Nishhdiani talked about typing "corrections" in the edit summary. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 10:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Per your request on my talk page, I took a look at the minor change of "relocated" to "stopped in" made by Nefer Tweety. I find that NT's correction better reflects the cited source. Here is the text is from Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan's secrets: woman, war, and song, University of Texas Press (Mar 2001), pg.39

She drove south with the children all the way to Haifa, but was afraid the British in Palestine could force them to return to French territory. Fu'ad advised his mother to sell the car, which she accomplished, and they boarded the train for Egypt."

There is no other mention about Haifa there. The stop there was obviously brief.
Furthermore, the other part of the sentence which you mention in Number 4 of the corrections above, after discovering that the French were searching for them there is also not confirmed by your source. Here is the text from Sherifa Zuhur, Asmahan's secrets: woman, war, and song, University of Texas Press (Mar 2001), pg.39

"She fled the Jabal during aerial bombardments, incidents which can be confirmed. Labib's account embellishes, adding that the little family (without Fahd) was in danger even in Beirut; that the French might have taken action against them, for the Druze were holding French hostages down in the Jabal. The veracity of this threat is impossible to verify one way or another."

Zuhur specifically states that it is unverified and she treated it as an "embellishment". Being unverified, it should not be placed as a fact in the article. CactusWriter | needles 17:05, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
On p38 she did not treat it as an "embellishment": "Alia went on to Beirut, to her family's home. But once there, she was informed that the French had learned of her presence in Beirut and, furious with the Turshan, intended to arrest her and the children so as to force an armistice upon the Druze." --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 18:54, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
On Pages 38-39, Zuhur relates the story as written by Labib, at the end of which she refers to it as an embellishment which could not be verified. It is not a fact. The best that could be said is "According to some family accounts,...". Given its insignificance to the bio, it is not worth adding more conjecture. It can be left out. CactusWriter | needles 19:33, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Birth date[edit]

I've had a look through the available references on the page and there are some conflicting pieces of information. The following references all show different birth dates:

Does anyone have any more information about this? It seems as though we don't actually know her birth date. – Quoth (talk) 19:13, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Printed sources including some written by her family members and Syrian official sources put the date at 1918-10-25. Which makes sense because she was born on the journey back from Turkey after her father fled to Syria, following the fall of Damascus to the Allies on 30-9-1918.
This only underlines what I have said before: take everything written about Asmahan with a grain of salt. Especially if the source is the Egyptian tabloids, Muhammad at-tabe'i, or is drawing its information form them. There's a severe lack of reliable sources on her life. -- Orionisttalk 14:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Awesome; thank you for the elaboration. Could you provide the reference information for two of those authoritative sources you just mentioned so that we can use them in the article? – Quoth (talk) 04:04, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, I have one I could readily find:
  • Majed al-Atrash, "أسمهان، أميرة الطرب والسيف والكرم" (English: "Asmahan, The Princess of Tarab, Sword and Generosity"). Al-'Adiyat Magazine, issue: summer 2005. p 75 (in Arabic).
I still have some other magazines but these need to be dug out. Most of the rest are news and stories in the Syrian official newspapers, some of them about the new museum. I'm sure most of these can be found on the newspapers' website, especially Al-Thawra newspaper. All of them put the date at 1918. here is one story I kept on record.
There was also a big fuss in the media about the factual errors of the "Asmahan" series, one of them was the date of birth which the series put at 1917. So maybe you can find something about this in various arabic publications.
Unfortunately I quit working on this article or keeping record of sources long ago, when it turned into a battle zone. I hope you find these helpful, and I'll keep digging for the others. Best regards. -- Orionisttalk 20:20, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

overt plagiarism, misunderstanding of sources, is Wikipedia really just a form of plagiarism?[edit]

I am the author of Asmahan: Woman, War and Song (which is referred to here and there in the content and editing commentary under the correct and wrong titles) I collected materials on Asmahan for about 15 years, interviewed living family members, reviewed official files including previously closed UK and French documents, reviewed her musical contribution, etc. I am a scholar. I understand that the standards I used are NOT followed by those who are writing and editing Wikipedia, i.e. I cite everything and where it may appear to you to be "opinion," I have carefully reviewed supporting documentation. Thus when one of your writers draws straight from my book, w/o citation as to Asmahan's missing her career in Egypt - this is actually a true statement based on her personal correspondance which the Wiki writer has not read, but I have. I'm posting because I see multiple violations of copyright laws. Moreover, how can the editors rule on "disputes" or venture opinions as to facts they don't know (and the posters clearly don't know? The issue about Asmahan's citizenship is just one point. She was born a citizen of the Ottoman empire in the province of Syria (the varying dates of birth are offered because the journalist, Muhammad al-Taba'i claimed that she had falsified her passport; and here I took into account what we know about her family, her siblings, events of the period). She was not a "naturalized" Egyptian in the same way that one can be naturalized in the U.S.A. or get a work permit in the UK. For some reason, she did not acquire Egyptian citizenship in 1927, when it would have been possible for her to do so, but her brother did. This does not make her an Egyptian, but rather an Arab Druze of shami (Levantine) origins who lived in Egypt. She "sang patriotic songs" because one was included in the score of the film she starred in! Other actors and actresses did likewise. Here, there isn't any evidence to suggest how she felt about that ... Sherifa Zuhur```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:25, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I attempted to edit the article today. I am not familiar with Wikipedia's process, but I received a message saying you removed everything I wrote as it is unverified, even though I have been working on the details of Asmahan's life for 20 years, and am the author of the book that the other writers and written sources keep citing. Then when I logged in, I saw some edits appeared to "take" and some didn't. Some I made because the grammar and language is unclear, but there were also claims made that I know to be false and misunderstandings. For example, Alia al-Mundhir and her three children chose to flee the Jabal (Druze, now Jabal Arab). The children had no voice in the matter. An earlier reference was to the three children coming from Dmarji; however, there was another child alive at that time. Asmahan's "mentors" is not really the right word to describe the composers of her songs. By the time, her career blossomed, Hosni was out of the picture. Qasabji and Ahmad were great composers who sought singers to make their work famous. Qasabji was not Asmahan's mentor, but he admired her, and he lost work with Umm Kulthum because of his association with Asmahan. The description of Asmahan's voice was written in poor English, but also compared her to singers who were not a part of her musical era or tradition (Fairuz and Sabah) and claim she used a "western technique" with no proof offered. it was the composers who chose to include coloratura sections in their songs, and she had the technique to execute these, but it would be a mistake to identify her with the Western-sounding section of Ya Tuyur exclusively. Singing in lawn tarab is quite hard to describe, but also, what a truly "Arab sound" was in 1939 or 1940 wasn't the same as it was in 1929, or in 1953; some of the nasality became less admired, the Turkish-style ornamentation of Asmahan's predecessors went out of style. etc. I could go on and on about why I edited as I did, too bad if you removed it, Sherifa ZuhurZuhur (talk) 01:15, 5 December 2010 (UTC)