Talk:Evangelos Zappas

Founder of the Olympic Games

As noted in Talk:Pierre de Coubertin, a few citations or references would be nice to have to back up the claim that Zappas founded the modern Olympic Games. Actually, there aren't any references. --Kimon 19:30, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Note: I'm not arguing the notability of the person, just the text in the article. --Kimon 19:31, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Cripes, I look away for a few months and the article gets infested with POV-pushing. [1] was one of the sources I used in creating the article (original text: [2]), along with a page at athens2004.net which is now offline. It's still a good source, and draws the distinction between the Zappian Olympic Games founded by Zappas and the current incarnation of the Olympics. The Games of Zappas pre-dated Coubertin's Games and were an inspiration for him, but the Zappian Games folded after 1875. The modern Olympic Games run by the IOC are a different set of Olympic Games. -- Jonel | Speak 23:15, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The older edit is a lot better and definitely NPOV. I propose reverting it to that version. If there are no objections, I'll do it. --Kimon 01:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually there are plenty of references to back up the fact that Zappas funded the first modern international Olympic Games. If you don't look you don't find. Nipsonanomhmata 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that the "Olympics through Time" source reference should be deleted. The information is second or third hand. It adds nothing that isn't already in the other sources which are original source references. Nipsonanomhmata 15:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It isn't right to say that the Zappas Olympic Games "folded". Zappas did not just sponsor Olympic Games and he left more than enough money in his legacy to keep the Games going for a very long time. Zappas provided an infrastructure that was used in 1870, 1875, 1896, 1906, and 2004. Nobody else has provided infrastructure for the Olympic Games with such longevity. Describing what Zappas did as having "folded" is short-sighted since the Panathenian stadium has not folded and neither has the Zappeion. In fact, the Olympic Games are still going and the IOC has used Zappas' infrastructure twice since 1896. The Zappeion was used as the Olympic media center in 2004. Clearly, if it "folded", it's been unfolded and reused. Nipsonanomhmata 15:48, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Greek ancestry? Or Albanian?

I asked a citation for his greek ancestry, but nothing is available online. The Zhapa family is Albanian according to some Albanian sources. I really want to believe that the Zhapa were greeks, but there are so many Zhapa family names in Albania and I really don't know any greeks with the Zappas last name, that I really don't know if we are saying the truth here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sulmues (talk • contribs) 18:00, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I've provided 5 'rs', saying that he was born Greek in a Greek village by Greek family. About the name, that's really interesting but still dont see the point on that here. I've checked also Zappas testament which is avaible online, he states clear that he is Greek without leaving doupts.Alexikoua (talk) 20:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Alexikoua are you kidding me? He had the choice of either stating:

1. - I am a Greek
2. - I am a Turk

As we both know that Albania did not exist at his time of death, hence he could not have the nationality of a country that did not exist yet. Anyways I'll have to bring some references that he is more likely to have been Albanian. I know pretty well Labova and there are no greeks there, that's for sureSulmues (talk--Sulmues 21:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The Greek/Turk dillema is irrelevant since he lived in Romania after the end of the Greek Revolution.Alexikoua (talk) 21:50, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

So you are proposing the Romanian/Greek dilemma? Solved by Evangelis as "Greek"? Again, he didn't have the option of giving himself the "Albanian" nationality, because such nationality did not exist at the time. Sulmues (talk --Sulmues 22:30, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest not to ignore 'rs' material. You are confusing nationality with ethnicity, and Albanian ethnicity, existed that time.Alexikoua (talk) 05:42, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I personally am very skeptical about his ethnicity. My impression is that the Labovits have been exclusively Albanians in 1800 (and still are), however they would speak Greek pretty well as a second language since (1) it was the language of the church (2) many of them had emigrated in Greece to conduct better business (3) it was the language of many business activities. In addition, people would usually go to Greek schools organized by the Church, so they knew Greek pretty well since it was taught since their childhood. Now saying that the labovits were Greeks is going the extralength: speaking Greek as a second language does not make you a Greek and I can assure you that I know Labova pretty well. It would be the equivalent of saying that half of the Albanians today are Italian because they watch the Italian television so much that they know Italian as a second language at an impressive quality! Dr. Fedhon Meksi, great, great, great, great nephew of Vangjel Meksi teaches us that the Zhapas were grecophiles, and the Meksi clan were Albanofiles, but none of them are greek (see here [3])! Another more scholarly source [4] simply tells us that Vangjel Zhapa was a rich Albanian. If we start confronting sources we'll be soon edit warring, so the talk page is where we should reach consensus. Simply put, the sources that are currently in the article are not giving sufficient information, actually they are not giving no information at all, because they are not verifiable. Since we're at it, I also disagree with you saying that he Zappa is from Northern Epirus. He was born in the what was called Pashalik of Yanina: Northern Epirus came into existance as a political region only in 1914 when he had already died, hence I disagree with your revert. Could we please discuss? You are saying that the sources say he was from Northern Epirus, but I don't see those sources. Could you please bring them to the talk page? Btw you deleted two sources in the Pashalik of Yanina article [5] because they were not verifyable, but your sources that are here about his origin are not verifiable either and you are relying on them to show that Zappa was from Northern Epirus. I have one more reference ([6], see page 9/19) that says:

Austrian travellers who visited Lunxhëri,most of them arriving from Ioannina, described the Lunxhots as Albanian-speaking Orthodox Christians, and had the feeling that, starting north of Delvinaki, they were entering another country, although the political border did not exist at the time. Greek was not spoken as it was further south; there was a change in the way of life and manners of the peasants. As one traveller reported Hobhouse 1813:

Every appearance announced to us that we were now in a more populous country. (...) the plain was every where cultivated, and not only on the side of Argyro-castro [Gjirokastër]… but also on the hills which we were traversing, many villages were to be seen. The dress of the peasants was now changed from the loose woollen brogues of the Greeks, to the cotton kamisa, or kilt of the Albanian, and in saluting Vasilly they no longer spoke Greek. Indeed you should be informed, that a notion prevails amongst the people of the country, that Albania, properly so called, or at least, the native country of the Albanians, begins from the town of Delvinaki; but never being able, as I have before hinted, to learn where the line of boundary is to be traced, I shall content myself with noticing the distinction in the above cursory manner. In this place [Qestorat, in Lunxhëri] everything was on a very different footing from what it had been in the Greek villages. We experienced a great deal of kindness and attention from our host; but saw nothing in his face (though he was a Christian) of the cringing, downcast, timid look of the Greek peasant. His cottage was neatly plastered, and white-washed, and contained a stable and small ware-room below, and two floored chambers above, quite in a different style from what we had seen in Lower Albania. It might certainly be called comfortable; and in it we passed a better night than any since our departure from Ioannina.

Still think that Vangjel Zhapa was a Greek? He was born around that time when the traveller was writing his memories. In addition, not only Labova has alwasy been Albanian, but also Qestorat that has historically been more filogreek and from where Georgios Christakis-Zografos was, seems to be 100% Albanian according to this impartial British traveller. Sulmues (talk --Sulmues 01:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

What I can conclude is that the entire english speaking bibliography, without any wp:synth exaggerations clearly says that he was ethnic Greek, no matter if the villages in his homeland were of mixed ethnicity. What I see is that Zappas was a Greek nationalist and partiot [[7]], (his testament [[8]]). I inform you that the source you brought talks about 'fluid' identities in southern Albania [[9]] and not of a racial purity

Moreover, read about wp:rs and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is in order to see how wiki operates..Alexikoua (talk) 07:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Hm, from the two references that you brought: Golden, the first one, is saying that Zappas was born in Greece, so he seems to be ill-informed as Greece did not exist at that time. We all agree that he spent all his life for Greece only, but we are discussing his ethnicity, which is still open to be proved. The testament: gotta download that rar thingie but now don't have the time. As soon as I do I'll submit it to google translator. Now, the Austrian traveller clearly says:

they no longer spoke Greek

which is no "fluid identity" to me. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 21:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Your quest to prove the region's racial purity reminds me on some tottalitarian practices and does not touch me. Alexikoua (talk) 06:15, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

I disagree and I will ask for a third opinion. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

The article has been already peer reviewed.Alexikoua (talk) 20:31, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

I am going to add to this article the Albanian taskforce project. Vangjel Zhapa is Albanian and I provided above lots of sources. And I could continue. One thing at a time. Sulmues (talk--Sulmues 22:06, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately you provided nothing, apart from two nationalistic sources that are pov by sight [[10]]([[11]] a Albanian 1960s one). This article has nothing to do with tf:Albania. Why dont you try your luck with Napoleon Bonaparte? You said you have several sources that confirm his Albanian origin [[12]]. You might be more lucky there.Alexikoua (talk) 22:27, 12 February 2010 (UTC)