Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

See also: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria exemptions

RFC: Soundtrack covers in articles about other media (films, video games, etc.)

Under what conditions can non-free soundtrack covers be used in articles about films, video games, or other media where non-free cover art has already been presented (as per WP:NFCI#1)?

This has come up in a few places so I'd like to affirm what I believe is practice by an RFC.

This is to specifically the address articles on films, video games, and any other media where there will be a published soundtrack. Arguably this can also be applied to where an article on a specific published medium has a tie-in work of a different form that is discussed in the article but otherwise does not have a separate standalone article (due to notability or editor decision); eg like a film with a novelization or the like. --MASEM (t) 18:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Background

In most cases where this occurs, there is the main infobox use of the "cover" of the published work, which per NFCI#1 and past consensus can be used without specific discussion of the image. When the soundtrack is then mentioned (regardless of how much can be said about the soundtrack), most will use an infobox here as well. The question is specifically on the image used in that infobox or otherwise a standalone image in conjunction with this secondary media. There are two primary issues at play here:

• First, most often, there is little discussed about these soundtracks - the infobox has primary data (data of release, publisher, etc.) and the soundtrack list will be included, and that's fine as content for the article, but the problem comes in when a non-free cover is used. Our use of NFCI#1 would suggest that the cover art would not be appropriate if there is no significant discussion of the soundtrack. That is, if it would otherwise be impossible to have a standalone article on the soundtrack due to lack of notability, we don't have enough info to support an NFCI#1 use of the album cover image. This would make them decorative images and fail WP:NFCC#8.

• Second, even if the soundtrack album is discussed, many times the cover of the soundtrack album is nearly or exactly similar to that of the film. (An example would be File:The_Breakfast_Club.jpg (film poster) and File:Breakfast Club Soundtack.png (soundtrack) both presently used in The Breakfast Club.) Even if the soundtrack can be discussed in a notable manner (as shown in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Megamind&oldid=525104541 this earlier version) of the Megamind article, but after which the soundtrack has been split off into a notable soundtrack article.) but the soundtrack cover is nearly exact to the movie poster, the soundtrack cover is a problem. Nearly exact covers would fail WP:NFCC#3a since the two images duplicate each other.

Note that this assumes there is no discussion of the soundtrack cover art at all; if the cover art can be discussed (and as separate discussion from main cover art), then NFCC#8 likely applies and the image can be kept (barring other considerations).

Again, I believe this has been the norm, but its unstated directly in any NFC policy. It's implied by NFCI#1, but when I've pointed editors to this and NFCC#8, some editors don't understand the history of these and complain that the soundtrack cover should be used.

I would like to make sure there is (or remains) consensus on these points and add language either to WP:NFCI#1, or as a new clause for WP:NFC#UUI. Further, I would want to encourage the appropriate wikiprojects to look to removing offending images, assuming this is found to remain true.

Discussion

• We have guidelines on this for films. At MOS:FILM#Soundtrack:

The template {{Infobox album}} can be used for the score or the collection, although WikiProject Film consensus is against having cover images in the album infoboxes in the film article. The poster image in the film infobox is sufficient for identification of the topic, and cover images in the film article's album infoboxes is considered extraneous. If an album is notable enough for a stand-alone article (see WP:NALBUMS), one should be created, and an album infobox with a cover image can exist in the new article.

I think these guidelines correlate with the above arguments about the soundtrack cover being a secondary image and usually similar to the film poster to boot. Erik (talk | contribs) 23:02, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

• I think that unless the cover art's artwork is discussed in the main article then it does not pass NFCC#8 and should be removed. I think we should add another WP:NFC#UUI to make this explicit, similar to the discography one. Also, your discussion doesn't cover notable soundtracks discussed on the main article. --Odie5533 (talk) 01:29, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

• • That is a good separate point to continue, and one that is not as easy or with assured information. If the soundtrack is clearly notable and could support a separate article, and sport a different soundtrack cover image than the film, but editors have agreed to keep the soundtrack coverage in the film article (perhaps for better comprehension of the overall article of avoid duplication), and work on the assumption that there's no discussion of the soundtrack cover. I would argue that in such cases, as long as the soundtrack image is unique from the film poster, that we would allow its inclusion, as if the soundtrack details was put to a separate article, it would certainly have the soundtrack image. Near or exact-matches of the soundtrack images to the film poster (like Megamind) would not qualify here. --MASEM (t) 18:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

• Soundtracks meet NFCI#1, its note, and NFCI#8 if they also meet the 'Non-free image use in list articles' as each video game article meets this criteria because they "consist of several small sections of information for a series of elements common to a topic".

1. The image represents multiple elements of the game, the vocal acting, audio and cues, sound effects, music, and soundtrack. A sample of the music such as 'New Age Retro Hippie' suggested would only represent one of these features while the soundtrack represents all these features in one image.
2. The cover art, and it's contents are discussed within the article, with references.
3. An image that provides a representative visual reference for other elements in the article.
4. If it doesn't duplicate another image.
5. It doesn't represents a living person.
6. Minimal usage of the image, shouldn't appear in more then one article, or be a duplicate of the box art. (Floppydog66 (talk) 11:06, 7 December 2012 (UTC))

If "The cover art, and its contents are discussed within the article, with references." then I think no one would contest that it meets WP:NFCC#8. The problem is that most of the time the cover art's contents (i.e. artwork) are not discussed. Additionally, I feel you are misrepresenting some things in your argument. For example, images can not possibly be representative of voice acting as they are different mediums (one is visual and the other is auditory). And our policy on minimal usage is not satisfied by using an image on only one article (see WP:NFCC#3). --Odie5533 (talk) 12:13, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

I want to stress that NFCI#1's allowance is assuming you have a published work that would meet our notability guidelines in that we can certainly write more about the work than just its existance and basic primary information (this being soundtrack list for albums, plot and cast for films, etc.); we're excepting a work where some of the creation, development, critical reception, and legacy factors are included. What the image then does is provide, per the consensus argument, implicit branding and marketing information about the work, even if the cover image is not discussed directly. Technically that allowance could go to any published work, but because it harms non-free, we restrict it to notable works, which falls in line with the Foundation's resolution on non-free: "or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works". Hence if you have a non-notable soundtrack as part of a film article, the consensus as it seems would be that there's no immediate allowance to use the cover as an identifying work. That's not to say that it could meet NFCC with additional commentary on the cover art itself, but this is rather rare where the soundtrack isn't notable but its cover art is. --MASEM (t) 18:45, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

And to provide an example, I found Dexter's Laboratory to have such a case. The "Hip Hop Experiment" soundtrack has sources that I would consider it notable and could have had a separate article, but it is much better in context about the show itself. But the soundtrack image is far different from the show image (TV show title card). I'm not saying this is the best example, but it is a practical example to consider. There is also a second soundtrack mentioned ("The Musical Time Machine") but itself is not a notable soundtrack , and as given, is lacking an image (which fits in with my description of what I believe consensus is). --MASEM (t) 22:25, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

• No. I always remove these if I find them. They almost always fail WP:NFCC#8 ("Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic") because the topic is the film, not the soundtrack. If the soundtrack is independently notable it should have its own article; if not, it doesn't pass the criteria. Black Kite (talk) 11:50, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The presumption that everything notable will have a separate article is incorrect; there's a recent RfC here describing cases where editors can decide to cover notable topics as part of larger articles (for example, as a list of notable soundtracks). In such case it makes sense to keep the image; even if it's not relevant to the article's "main" topic, it's relevant to the secondary topic that was merged into it, so it can pass WP:NFCC#8. Diego (talk) 18:14, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• RfC format: FYI: the RfC bot copies the topmost part of this section's text, up until it finds a signature. There was no signature, so it was placing a large block of text in the RfC summary pages. I've tried to remedy that by placing Masem's signature after the first 2 paragraphs. Masem: if you are not the originator, please let me know so I can change the signature. Also, the time stamp may be incorrect. Apologies in advance if this causes any problems. --Noleander (talk) 19:21, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
• I'm with Black Kite here. There is no need to have the soundtrack cover in the film article, unless for some reason it (the cover) is particular noteworthy and subject of sourced commentary. This stands regardless of the notability of the album/the existence of another article. Nowhere in the NFCC does it say anything about the use/non-use of the image in question elsewhere; we must judge the uses in articles on their own merits. For that reason, I have no time for the "album is notable but does not have its own article"-type arguments. J Milburn (talk) 23:24, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

If we had a notable soundtrack article with a cover image and editors decide to merge it with another article for concerns of layout and context, your argument would cause the image to be removed. This is placing a style guideline in front of the notability policy; I can't agree with that line of reasoning. Diego (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• The problem isn't the policy but the references of the articles. The problem is the references and the significance of the subject of the image, as mentioned above and on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games#Secondary box arts/soundtrack covers talk page. For audio, if there is vocal audio on a album then the album also represents that audio, such as if a song is sung, that vocal arrangement or spoken audio is as much of the audio and the music. For images of soundtrack albums, Featured articles, A-Class and Good articles do have these features and do work better as a whole because they don't break the subject into two separate articles. Here are just two example of the featured articles.

Final Fantasy Tactics

The Mummy (1999 film)

People going to other articles and then deleting images that they don't like or feel don't meet their idea of 'significant' and 'notability', and such, and then claiming that it's a policy issue doesn't address the issue. Other times, like the examples already mentioned, the information could be moved to it's own page for just the album. If not then it is a 'notability' and ect., issue. If there is a consensus that soundtrack images not be used for games, television, movies, novels (yes even novels have soundtracks). Then that consensus needs to be meet, then pointed to, and not people randomly claiming unfair image use, and policies that don't address the problem. That only leads to repeatedly trying to change policy to stamp out what some people don't think is relevant and other people do. The policy could be rewritten a thousand times and and would probably meet the same fate, more footnotes, and arguments about what should and 'shouldn't be allowed'. (Floppydog66 (talk) 11:20, 8 December 2012 (UTC))

The Mummy's article is a good example of the problem. A scan of the text shows no outright discussion of either poster or soundtrack; for those poster, that's okay, as it is the representation of the film, and per NFCI#1 and past discussions, meets NFCC as implicit understanding of the brand marketing. Including the text on the soundtrack (despite being notable) on the same page is also completely acceptable, but now lets look to the image. This would fall into the case of being nearly like the poster. As such , there is no new marketing/branding information that can be learned from it. It duplicates the film poster, and thus fails NFCC (specifically on minimal use). --MASEM (t) 14:58, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

(Also, for reference, the Mummy was promoted in April 2008, predating the more stringent FAC image requirements following the resolution) --MASEM (t) 15:00, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Floppy, this was The Mummy when it was promoted to Featured status. The soundtrack cover image was added afterward. I doubt that the editor who improved the article to Featured status would have endorsed including this image. I'll be removing it. Erik (talk | contribs) 17:30, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

The image for the soundtrack is completely different to the film poster, so its branding and marketing values are not the same as those of the poster; so I can't see why it's a problem to keep both - the image is adding new branding and marketing information. It's the same case as with Dexter's Laboratory above. Diego (talk) 18:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

• This seems pretty straightforward. If the soundtrack is (a) notable enough for its own section within the film, (b) for some reason does not have its own article, and (c) has recognizable cover art substantially different than the film poster or other image used to identify the main article, then it should be permissible to use within the film article to identify the album. If any of these conditions fail, then the image is unnecessary fails in one or more categories from NFCC, e.g. being necessary to inform the reader. - Wikidemon (talk) 12:20, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
• I agree with Wikidemon and also some of the points Floppydog made. I think the view that a soundtrack can only be notable if it has its own article is bogus. Where things are naturally closely associated, it can make very good sense to treat them together. The view that a soundtrack album cannot have an image because it doesn't have its own article seems to me inappropriately formalistic. The question we should be asking is: does seeing how the album was presented and marketed add something of value to reader knowledge and understanding in the general context of the subject. The answer to that, to me, shouldn't depend on whether we have split the material into two articles, or whether we have treated it all together in one location.

Obviously, if the album cover basically just recapitulates the main poster or dvd design, then there's little added by its presence and it could be expected to fail NFCC#3. That is probably the situation for the clear majority of such covers. But if we have quite a section about the album, including eg a full track-listing, and its cover is not just a re-iteration of other marketing material, then it seems to me that we would do our readers a service by showing it, and it's justified for the same reasons which justify NFCI#1. Jheald (talk) 15:03, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

See, the problem is, if all we have about the soundtrack in the film article that is only primary details (which include dates of release, publisher, and soundtrack) and states absolutely nothing else about the sond track, then the statement "how the album was presented and marketed add something of value to reader knowledge and understanding in the general context of the subject" has no relavance, because there's nothing to go on. I'm not saying that the data about the soundtrack shouldn't be included, but our reasoning of NFCI#1 is based on the fact that the work itself was the subjection of discussion and thus by association the marketing/branding of the cover art works along with this , even if there's zero discussion of the art or marketing to start. You simply don't have that if the soundtrack is listed but not expanded upon in the article. NFCI#1 is already a tenacious application of NFCC#8 (though affirmed by RFCs), but in this type of case, it flat out fails. --MASEM (t) 18:15, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

• Partial Consensus There seem to be four different cases which are being discussed: 1) the soundtrack is not notable on its own and its cover is similar to the film's 2) the soundtrack is not notable on its own and its cover is different than the film's 3) the soundtrack is notable and its cover is similar to the film's 4) the soundtrack is notable and its cover is different than the film's. Aside from these four is the case where the soundtrack's artwork is discussed in the article which is clearly covered by the WP:NFCC#8, but might not pass #3 if it is similar to the film's cover. There appears to be consensus that the cover art should not be shown for cases 1 and 2, where the soundtrack is not notable. --Odie5533 (talk) 18:10, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure where the line of reasoning that "non-notable soundtrack" comes from? I haven't seen where that consensus emerged; policy only talks about "significant" content. My position for case 2) is that if the soundtrack is discussed in detail (i.e. with "critical commentary") and it's image is substantially different from the film, it can have its own image to illustrate its branding. Unless someone can point me where in the guidelines the consensus for notability was developed, I think we should discussing about significancy, not notability. I agree with Masem that images without any significant coverage don't need an image, and with Wikidemon and Jheald in everything else. Diego (talk) 18:37, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Then I guess there is no consensus on anything. Regarding case 2, I do not agree with you because it violates WP:NFCC#8. WP:NFCI#1 branding exception is for the main image in the top right of the article and does not extend to other images. I do not think the addition of a cover "would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic". One can understand a topic without seeing the cover. If the fact that the soundtrack had a cover is important then the readers can simply be told that the soundtrack had a cover without needing to see it. --Odie5533 (talk) 14:01, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

None of situations we have is currently described anywhere in policy, it is extrapolations to get there. The reason I bring in notability is that this would imply a separate standalone page for the soundtrack , and ergo by NFCI#1, the allowance for an image; however, if an editor chooses to keep the notable soundtrack within the article on the film, then there is no reason that NFCI#1 should not still apply except if the soundtrack image is not fundamentally different from the movie poster. --MASEM (t) 14:25, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

• One reason that a consensus probably wasn't reach, and that others seem to want to change the polices repeatedly, seems to be that they want to delete that content from the up and coming articles and ignore the already reviewed articles with such content, which wasn't an issue at the time. The newer articles check the Featured, A-Class and other such to see what is missing from their article to meet the same standards. This leads to having soundtracks covers on older Featured, Good articles then, when the new articles are being made they are told that isn't allowed, not because it doesn't have enough references, but because one line in a policy. While other pages with the same reference system are Featured articles. If a consensus is reached it should be retroactive as well as just knocking down newer articles. As with the Mummy my argument from the beginning still applies, the album is referenced the image is of the same as the movie cover, so what, be polite and change it, or ask them to, most soundtracks have alternate covers that aren't the same as the image that is at the top of the page, The Mummy has at least 4 other soundtrack album covers. Presumable they choose that one to match the lead image making for a firmer connection between the two, if that it isn't 'acceptably' by a consensus then they should be told and asked to provide another. Hardly any entertainment media is released solely in one country, and even in the USA there are almost always different covers and posters. But instead of thinking about that, there is argument even between the people that don't want the image there, as to what policy the 'current' image is violating. Having people go to articles they haven't contributed to, then deleting content, and point vaguely to a policy without mentioning what part of that policy was disputed, is just rude. (Floppydog66 (talk) 08:55, 9 December 2012 (UTC))
  • A fallacious argument because it implies that policies, guidelines, and article quality standards shouldn't evolve. The reason why you see content now deemed inappropriate on older Featured and Good articles is because the removal of content from Featured and Good articles is far more difficult a task than it is for up and coming articles. Soundtrack covers should only be included if the soundtrack itself is notable as a separate product, not notable by association to the primary product. It does not need to have its own article to be notable. However, at the same time, if that notable soundtrack's cover art is a duplicate of the cover art for the primary product, then it simply doesn't need to be there. That it is similar to the image presented in the lead tells readers all they need to know about how to identify it. To use a contentious article as a case, Paper Mario switched from a duplicated cover art to an original; however, while it is not a duplicate, it is not particularly noteworthy. It is simply Japanese text and the Japanese game logo, neither of which are particularly identifiable or difficult to discuss in the article's body. Good image selection for an article needs to consider more than the status quo or including images because old FAs have similar images, or because you see it happen in other articles; we have to ask ourselves how much harm comes to the article without a particular image. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 11:07, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
    • Unfortunately, I beg to differ. When I read Paper Mario, I ultimately understood the soundtrack by looking at the orange image. I wouldn't identify the soundtrack by text alone; it still needs an image. By the way, I've changed the rationale. --George Ho (talk) 16:35, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
    • I think this is getting a bit too specific; 99% of soundtrack cover artworks are never discussed in reliable sources. I think the decision for Paper Mario is best left for its talk page. As I outlined above, there are four generic cases which I think are most important to consider. --Odie5533 (talk) 17:19, 9 December 2012 (UTC)
• Saying that those type of images are against policy, and it doesn't matter that Features, A-Class, and others articles have them is hypocritical. If they are against policy they no longer meet the Wikipedia standards for the content they now have. It's just lazy editing to make a policy/consensus that is only half enforced, to then go to other pages and try make changes to them and ignore the sources of the problem. As for 3), and 4) the soundtrack is audio within the media. Just like a screenshot shows the art, structure of the game, or movie set, whether they built the landscape of cubes, and game play, shading, and such things as the player riding a horse, while shooting an arrow. The only feature the screenshot doesn't represent is the audio. When the audio is discussed with proper references, my suggestion is with at least five references, it has become a main topic within the game and there should be a representation of that feature. The only other suggestion for this has been a audio clip of one song. Which might work, but my concern is that it doesn't represent the entire audio as a whole. It seems that this is why the images of the soundtracks were originally used to represent this audio as a key feature of the entertainment, with the audio featured being properly referenced. As 'New Age Retro Hippie' pointed out in the WikiProject Video games discussion, the soundtrack is significant due to its audio. Which is what most reviewers discuss about the game. As in "soundtrack is excellent", or "a game’s soundtrack can enrich the experience like nothing else and make a game" [1] and then go and discribe the game's audio, whether they are describing the album or just the audio, it is these contents that are being discussed, and the image is an overall depiction of the audio as a whole. Something the text alone does not do, and a audio clip would do only in part. (Floppydog66 (talk) 10:36, 10 December 2012 (UTC))
  • One, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not a valid argument, we look at what happens now not in the past. Second, the only mark that is of any use for image evaluation is FA, as that requires a high degree of consensus for inclusion. Third, and more important, is that FA underwent a significant re-evaluation of its image use evaluation after the Foundation's resolution on non-free media came into play, roughly mid-2008. FA's passed before them were reviewed for images but far from the rigor that we use now to evaluate images, so you will likely encounter old FAs with images that would not past muster today. We don't penalize those old FAs, though recognize that in time the offending images would likely be removed. This is why you may argue it's half-enforced, it's just an artefact of how the processes have developed.
  • There is no requirement how many sources discuss the soundtrack, as the number can easily be less than one. All we are looking for is the same type of coverage that would equate to notability - significant coverage in secondary sources - typically talking about critical reception and perhaps composition. Most soundtracks - film, game, whatever - just don't get this; sources aknowledge it exists but more often than not it is the scored background music that sets the work apart that isn't on the soundtrack. But even if the soundtrack is discussions, the image of the soundtrack cover rarely provides any other understanding of the work itself; if the images is not discussed at all, it has a high chance of violating NFCC#8. Remember, our goal here is to minimin non-free work and encourage free media additions. Just because we can use a cover image for a secondary work attached to a film or video game doesn't mean it is appropriate to do so. --MASEM (t) 14:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

It's nice to see that 'WikiProject Film' actually, made a policy/consensus first and then enforced it even on the 'Featured' Mummy article, and their project as a whole. With their 'Manual of Style' they actually try to change things when it no longer meet those conditions. Instead of discussing about what policies may or may not be broken, what the procedure should be and how to represent such a feature, should be. These things don't seem to have ever be addressed on the,

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Article guidelines

If we consider the MOS:FILM section about soundtrack images, and apply it to 'WikiProject Video game' then besides the image of the soundtrack, there are several other ways that it and its content can be represent within a game's article such as;

• To represent the game's music, a short excerpt from the game can be included as a .ogg file. A good example of a properly referenced audio clip would be for a song or theme mentioned within the text, as in;

• • the composer Yuka Tsujiyoko, described the music as "basic point of the music was making [it] without interrupting the original "Mario" music." or
• a reviewer stating that it is, "mostly uplifting... bunch of remakes of older Mario songs."

With an sample of the music that incorporates this feature, such as a new remake of a classic Mario Bros. theme.

• Another way to represent this is with a audio trailer, of the soundtrack. Similar to the one provided for Aquaria (video game).

• The audio can also also be represented in a video format showing the special features of the game and it's sound effects/music as in Pac-Man_(Atari_2600). Where the flicking of the characters, minimal use of music, sound effects, and general gameplay as different then the arcade game.

So far there seems to have only been two partial consensus'. 'Ok we'll use the soundtracks cover art to represent the music/soundtrack', then another partial one made without changing the MOS, or Policies decided that 'Nah that was a bad idea, then try delete them in some of the articles, and do nothing about it in others'. As with a 'picture can tell a thousand words' the game's audio described by text alone doesn't always encapsulate the essence of what the music is, or how best it can be presented. How it is represented is just as important as, how it shouldn't be featured, until both issues are dealt with the problem isn't resolved, only pushed off till later.(Floppydog66 (talk) 13:31, 11 December 2012 (UTC))

But the key is, non-free media is only included for topics where there is sourced discussion to support the inclusion. A film or video game may have a great soundtrack (by personal standards) but if nary a word is stated in sources critically commenting about it, a sound clip nor the soundtrack cover is going to help the reader. We can state it exists, but our non-free content policy required more than just verification for image inclusion - everything requires that the topic or media be the subject of sourced discussion to merit the use of non-free media. This is long-standing policy. That's why when a soundtrack is part of a film/video game article and only included because it is known to exist but without comment, cover art for it is never appropriate. --MASEM (t) 15:12, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

That's why the examples above have the words 'properly referenced'. If you object to the examples and their references now is the time to do it, but not to vaguely say 'well what if there aren't any references'. (Floppydog66 (talk) 07:52, 12 December 2012 (UTC))

Well to built of Masem's comment, we include non-free content only if its absence significantly harms the article as well. A comment that the soundtrack was good doesn't merit a sound clip inclusion. Something about "Reviewers stated the soundtrack was Y; the song "X" and its unique musical properties were nominated for Z award" has a much stronger case for requiring a non-free clip as a frame of reference. It's still a case-by-case basis. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:13, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

To point out something, I see zero problems with the inclusion of the soundtrack album cover for Final Fantasy Tactics. The text on that page about the album is sufficient to make it a notable standalone article (there's development and critical reception), but clearly its better covered in the game for better cohension of text between game and the soundtrack. (so point one: the soundtrack is notable, is passed). The cover art is also far different from the game's cover, so point two is passed. This would thus be a case I could justify the inclusion of the album cover.

I do see that someone recently split off the Mummy's soundtrack to a separate article, which is just barely notable enough to justify the separate page (eg no need to AFD), and thus "validating" the use of the soundtrack image. I'd love to say something about trying to merge when it makes sense in efforts to reduce non-free content, but that's far from a point to even try to establish here. --MASEM (t) 18:47, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

InfamousPrince (talk · contribs) has uploaded many soundtrack cover images that he makes an effort to keep. He created the soundtrack article for The Mummy to keep the soundtrack cover image. At Disturbia (film), there were two unnecessary soundtrack cover images before that I removed, and he created Disturbia: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack and Disturbia: Original Motion Picture Score. I think it's an odd modus operandi, to add value when the images are threatened with removal. As far as I can tell, it seems to be an okay way to proceed. What do others think? Erik (talk | contribs) 13:16, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

There is something questionable about doing that (creating a new article just to use/retain use of non-free media), but I would strongly recommend that not be part of this discussion, as it is a much more contentious issues (read: at what point does our NFC policy outweigh our notability guidelines where, if one notable article can reasonably be merged w/o loss of information into a second while reducing non-free image use, should that be done? I can tell that would be a lively discussion.) Of course, if the soundtrack articles being created are barely or not notable at all, that's a different issue but again outside the bounds of this discussion. I'd rather focus on the existing cases of soundtracks embedded in film/video games and equivalent cases. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masem (talk • contribs) 16:10, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Since the 'Mummy' soundtrack section was re-installed to the main movie page, and that it was moved to the new article was to save a album cover. I uploaded one of the other cover images to it and placed it back in the infobox on the movie page, where the original was. As the album itself is discussed within the article and shows it's 1) 2) notability. And as MASEM shows with his comment about 'Final Fantasy Tactics' there doesn't seem to be a consensus of if the album cover art needs to be mentioned as long as the album itself is notable. While when re-installing the infobox Odie5533 also left a empty { |Cover =} section. The discussion seems to still be about if the album's image is needed even when notability has been shown, if policy should be changed, and if so would that supersede the consensus made at the MOS:FILM#Soundtrack. Until those things are decided the images shouldn't be removed so contributor's to this discussion can see what the differences of opinion are, and how they work or don't work to the various articles. Also to keep the original uploaders desire for a album to be present within the article, until it has been proven by consensus that it should or shouldn't be there.(Floppydog66 (talk) 07:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC))

For the Mummy, the biggest thing, irregardless of notability of the soundtrack, is that the movie poster and the soundtrack poster are "identical" in terms of branding and marketing. If the soundtrack is discussed on the movie page, irregardless of how notable it is, it is duplicating the poster and needs to be removed per NFCC#3a (minimum use). The FFT article is different in that the game cover and the soundtrack cover are very different and, with the soundtrack (as a published soundtrack, mindyou) being notable, the cover inclusion is appropriate there. --MASEM (t) 19:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Does locating a soundtrack cover that is not identical to the film poster count as a loophole? --Odie5533 (talk) 21:24, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

I would argue, yes. --MASEM (t) 21:32, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

It would seem to admittedly fail WP:NFCC#8 and #3a. If a cover is so decorative that it could be easily replaced with another, then clearly neither are needed. --Odie5533 (talk) 23:04, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

The flaw with that is, that it is a referenced subject of discussion within an article. Just like if it were a image of a screenshot being used, there are many screenshots that could be used. What matters is what the image/screenshot is of, and that it is mentioned within the article. And it has references to support its being mentioned within the article. It is an image of what is being discussed at that point in the article. (Floppydog66 (talk) 12:17, 17 December 2012 (UTC))

The artwork of the soundtrack cover is not mentioned in the article, whereas the content of the screenshot is. Your argument does not satisfy WP:NFCC#8. --Odie5533 (talk) 12:59, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

By that reasoning the 'artwork' of the screenshot should be the only reason a screenshot should be used. Mario's stylized hat, enemies in the shape of a mushroom, industrial pipes sticking out of the ground. The error in that is, the 'contents'. Like the contents of a screenshot, the 'contents' of the album are discussed. From the image 'Licensing' tag; "The image is of an audio recording", thus being a representation of its contents as a whole. That is something that, even a screenshot doesn't always do, because one level of a game can look completely different then another level, and it's artwork change from place to place. It meets #8 by being a significant topic within the article, and having references to back up that claim. If it wasn't, there would be no need for the soundtrack to be mentioned, and there would be no references for it. Just like a screenshot, its contents are discussed whichever artwork is used, because the album, like a screenshot represents it's contents. (Floppydog66 (talk) 09:36, 18 December 2012 (UTC))

A screenshot is used to help readers understand something said in the article about the subject. The screenshot is not something that must be there, it's simply there because readers need it to understand certain elements, such as the HUD, graphics, perspective, abilities, etc. The screenshot's purpose is not to show a level, so it's irrelevant that there are a number of differences between each level. As for meeting #8, it is only as significant as everything else said in the article. The cover art of the game represents the game's contents. The cover art for the soundtrack represents the game's contents, not the contents of the soundtrack. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 11:18, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Picture of an audio recording

Floppydog: Contents refers to artwork (Mario's hat, etc.) The contents of the soundtrack cover is its artwork. In your rebuttal you have removed the word cover. At right is a picture of an audio recording. A soundtrack cover is not a picture of an audio recording. --Odie5533 (talk) 14:09, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

To step back, most cover/film art used in the main infobox on the page about the work is never discussed in the article, but per an RFC, the allowance for this is an implicit, unstated method of showing how the notable work was branded and marketed that otherwise meets NFCC#8. But you only get one image that gets this "free ride", to speak. Any subsequent alternate cover art for the same published no longer gets an implicit allowance to be there. This doesn't prevent alternate art from being used but in those cases the art or cover has to be discussed - they just have to show meeting NFCC#8 (and all other NFCC) explicitly. (cases I know are Okami where the Wii cover got f'd up, and Ico where the NA cover got shafted - both pointed accompanied by sourced text in their articles). When we extend this to soundtracks of films or games on the same page as their film/video game, and the soundtrack isn't notable, there's no free allowance to talk about it's branding or marketing, so the only case where we would allow the image is 1) if it was very different from the film poster/cover, and 2) the art or presentation of the soundtrack cover art was the subject of sourced discussion in the article (but if the soundtrack's not notable, this is also likely not going to be the case).

Note that screenshots of video games have no free passes: they have to be able to show NFCC#8 like any other image. As others pointed out above, this is usually used in discussion of gameplay elements so this is typically easy to, but again not a free allowance. --MASEM (t) 15:20, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Odie5533's comment doesn't hold up when you read the rest of the 'Licensing tag'. He claims 'soundtrack cover is not a picture of an audio recording' misunderstanding what a cover is. As that tag states the image is "solely to illustrate the audio recording in question". And with Final Fantasy Tactics, the album's cover isn't mentioned, but as MASEM said earlier 'soundtrack (as a published soundtrack, mindyou) being notable, the cover inclusion is appropriate there.' So the question doesn't come down to policy but references and how notable the soundtrack is, and not on it's artwork, nowhere on the 'Licensing' or Policy pages are there any requirements for artwork. (Floppydog66 (talk) 09:28, 19 December 2012 (UTC))

Clarification

As there is some confusion above, I want to clarify how I'm seeing this.

There are four cases, in which information about a distributed soundtrack is included in an article about the associated film/video game. (This can apply to other similar case, such as a novelization of a film; I'm using film + its soundtrack as the most obvious example). All these assume that there's no direct discussion of the soundtrack cover art in the article.

Case 1

The soundtrack's significance is not discussed. This means that the only things mentioned about the soundtrack are primary details like the music distributor, publication date, track listing, etc. In such cases, we would never include the soundtrack image.

Case 2

The soundtrack lacks notability. I want to clarify this being different from the significance factor, even though the result is the same. There may be one or two lines from a source or two that describe how the soundtrack was constructed or perhaps even some critical reception (eg we have some significance), but it would be clear that if this was put out as a separate article, its notability would be thrown into question and likely deleted if no further sourcing could be found. In such cases we also should not have an image of the soundtrack. The reason to separate this from significance (which as pointed out is the normal standard for image inclusion) is because someone's going to game this and game this hard if we only left it as significance: they will include one non-primary fact and claim that an album cover is thus needed for the soundtrack. Notability is a stronger measure that assures that, per NFCI#1, gives us "critical commentary of that item" so that the cover art can be justified without having to have the image itself be of significant discussion.

Case 3

The soundtrack is notable (could be spun out to a separate stand-alone article) but the cover art is nearly the same as the film poster. While NFCI#1 is met by notability, NFCC#3a demands that only one of the images is necessary, and ergo in this case the soundtrack cover would not be included.

Case 4

The soundtrack is notable and the cover art is significantly different from the film poster. In this case, the soundtrack cover can be included, since NFCI#1 and NFCC#3a are both satisfied. (It is not required if the author so chooses to not include it, of course).

Of course, if the soundtrack cover art itself is given significance by sources, irregardless of the soundtrack, that's reason enough to include it per NFCC#8. However, I can't imaging the case where this would happen without the soundtrack being notable, and where if the art of the soundtrack was similar to the film poster, where the soundtrack's art would be singled out from the poster. --MASEM (t) 17:46, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

The problem with that is the references are still the problem and not the policy. And it assumes the soundtrack is mentioned and not referenced. If there isn't any references for the soundtrack, just like any other information on the page the information shouldn't be there regardless of an image. #2 says it 'lacks notability', and then a few lines later says, that even with 'critical reception' of the album, it isn't a 'significance factor'. While you said earlier, for sources that 'number can easily be less than one', but both those comments aren't correct. The Significance factor is judged by it's references that discuss the album, and, or, critical reception about the album. In that case there is only two things; (1.) It doesn't have references, or (2a.) It has references, and if it does, (2b.) one of the album's covers can be used as long as it isn't a duplicate of another image on the same page. With (2b.) Being the only real disagreement. Everything else is a referencing issue, and not a policy issue. (Floppydog66 (talk) 11:40, 20 December 2012 (UTC))

If it's not referenced, we shouldn't have the information, that's right. But you can reference it without significant discussion of the soundtrack - a link to a vendor page that showed the fundamental details of the soundtrack works fine, but falls into #1. In case #2, I'm talking about when there may only be one source providing critical reception, where notability requires "significant coverage". Adding the source with critical reception shows significance of the soundtrack, but not notability. --MASEM (t) 14:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

• I agree with Masem on cases 1 through 3, per your policy-based arguments re NFCC #8 in cases 1 and 2 and #3a in case 3. I think we should try to form a consensus at least regarding some of these cases. --Odie5533 (talk) 12:50, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

• I think C1 and C2 are nearly the same but with a reference something like this [2] which is basically the album's catalog number and publisher info. Which fills in some of the basic infobox for a soundtrack. Such things usualy show the number of CD's, length, track listing and infobox stuff, for C2 that information is properly sourced and it can stay. It is basically like the movie profile of Internet Movie Database. Without any commentary on the album itself. There are a number of sites that offer such information. Usually it takes two references to fill up the infobox with 'style', 'publication date' and things like that.

Then up to C4 there are already usually about two references about the album. From here onward there are the sites, and publications that give ratings for the soundtracks, and, or reviews, and interviews. Most stand alone soundtrack Wikipedia articles, and album article use these as their main sources, including the Aggregate/Reception scores. Then after listing at least one or two of these there are 3 or more references on one album. Then like the overview of the game or movie itself, the soundtrack information gives a overall view of the music before the music itself is discussed, how many musical pieces were recorded and so on. Giving details of the most popular songs or themes of the game/movie ect., then reviews too. Showing if reviewers of the game, or its soundtrack thought the music was too slow, and so on. (Floppydog66 (talk) 08:27, 22 December 2012 (UTC))

• I also agree with Masem on cases C1, C3 and C4. On Case 2 (non-notable soundtrack with significant commentary) there are two sub-cases:
  • 2a) the soundtrack image is similar to the film poster and
  • 2b) the sountrack is essentially different from the poster.

I agree that case 2a) should not have an image because it's against WP:NFC#3a (repeated images for equivalent purpose) but not for case 2b). In that case, having critical commentary should be enough to have an image provided it's not too similar to the poster; I don't see as a problem the situation you described as undesirable (finding third-party sources that show significance beyond a mere listing of content); on the contrary, this is allowed by the wording of NFC and thus not "gaming the system". The strongest requirement for notability of the soundtrack is placing limits beyond the very strict NFC policy limits, as NFC#8 is worded around significance. To show significant coverage we should have more than mere verifiability (i.e. not only primary sources, and not only album tracks and statistics) but not as much as notability.

I think we should encode in a guideline the consensus we have for some of the cases you listed; and let the others be decided one by one according to the differences between images and quality of references. Diego (talk) 14:27, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

Notability is significant coverage, and the logic for your case would allow more images than appropriate. Again, if the soundtrack could never have gotten its own standalone article, the allowance for cover art fails WP:NFCI#1. This is unacceptable. --MASEM (t) 15:18, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem isn't the image, but what the users want on the article such as;

Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope#Soundtrack and the article Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope (soundtrack) which basically has it's ratings, track listings referenced and all the other stuff was mainly on the movie page, and some references are used for both. No reviews of the music on it, or what style type of music it has or what people thought of it because some users thought it was more needed on the movie page instead of on the album's.

Another good example is The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time#Audio and The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (original soundtrack). Instead of talking about the album and it's music and how the game's music and album were received the subject is broken up into three separate sections in two articles that list the same information, and are about the same thing the music and album of the game. It only leads to people not wanting to contribute to the soundtrack page because that information will be taken and brought to the game page, or the other way around. The basic this page, that page argument.

If it's a score of a film or game, I think Final Fantasy Tactics#Audio did it better then Zelda and Star Wars. It'd be better with the score tracks listed as one collapsed sortable table of all tracks, discs, and disc versions. As the reader is about to, or has already read about the music of the game, movie, and album. Zelda has 'Requiem of Spirit' listed three times but no way to compare the titles of track order, the different versions aren't compared, and the reader is left to guess and search if one musical piece is on the other releases, or discs, when one sortable table makes the information more accessible. While if they were actual songs then it should be listed as the Soundtrack's numbered listings. (Floppydog66 (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2013 (UTC))

Discussion - Arbitrary break uno

In response to this thread, I filed ‎File:TheFullMonty Soundtrack.jpg for deletion. You may go to that discussion to improve consensus. --George Ho (talk) 15:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)

This image is deleted by consensus, so another image (File:Serendipity (sountrack).jpg) is nominated for deletion. --George Ho (talk) 23:46, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

I've been leaving a friendly note on the article's pages, about those images as follows, hopefully that will help the articles:

There has been a request for the the deletion of the soundtrack cover here Wikipedia:Files_for_deletion#File:--- As the discussion stands so far you'd need the Soundtrack cover to be different then the lead film infobox, it could be a new lead image, or you might get here a different soundtrack cover from a differant region or alternate cover.

But the information about the soundtrack would still need to be referenced more. With interviews, and, or reviews, and reference like music aggregate scores. Here are some of the websites that might help; But it's up to you if you want to do the work and it still might get removed, but whether the information is here or in a article of it's own that information being referenced would help create a better article over all.

• http://www.scorereviews.com
• http://www.tracksounds.com
• http://www.filmtracks.com
• http://www.movie-wave.net
• http://www.allmusic.com
• http://www.discogs.com
• http://www.filmscoremonthly.com
• http://www.soundtrack.net
• http://www.soundtrackguide.net

Magazines, secializing in just the soundtracks;

• http://www.filmscoremonthly.com

Applicability of fair use to specific images

Hi all! I am not very familiar with the fair use policy, and I thought to inquire here if use of specific images on the English Wiki is possible under that policy. The images are contained in "The Storm" (Croatian: Oluja) a book by Davor Marijan, published by the Croatian Memorial-Documentation Center of the Homeland War (Croatian: Hrvatski memorijalno – dokumentacijski centar Domovinskog rata) (their catalogue of publications is here). The centre was established by the Parliament of Croatia ([3]). The book is available online here. Specifically, the photos on the following pages are of interest to me:

• Page 6 - photo by Alem Hadžigerić - taken during the first visit of Croatian President Tuđman to Knin fortress, a day after it was captured by Croatian Army (HV) in the Operation Storm
• Page 54 - uncredited photo - signing of the Split Agreement (military alliance of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina) in Split, Croatia on 22 July 1995
• Page 66 - photo by Damir Čobanov - taken shortly after capture of Knin by the HV in the Operation Storm on 5 August 1995, during a ceremony set up by the two guards brigades that captured the town
• Page 113 - uncredited photo - signing of surrender of the last major RSK army corps to the HV on 8 August 1995
• Page 123 - uncredited photo (lower right photo) - taken during link-up ceremony between the HV and the Bosnia-Herzegovina Army on 6 August 1995, marking the end of the siege of Bihać
• Page 232 - uncredited photo - HV Chief of General Staff Janko Bobetko and HV General Ćosić meting Chief of Staff of the US Army Gordon R. Sullivan in Washington DC, November 1994
• Page 240 - uncredited photo - HV General Ćosić meeting the US General Wesley Clark on 29 November 1994. The discussions at the time included the situation regarding the siege of Bihać (a map is visible in the background).

The last two images are likely to have been taken by US military personnel during performance of their official duties, but since the photos are uncredited in the book, I cannot offer any means of substantiating that.

I would like to use the images in the Operation Storm articles, as images of events that cannot be recreated. Could anyone please offer any comment and/or advice? Thanks.--Tomobe03 (talk) 16:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

I've been invited to comment, so here are my thoughts. I feel the above images would, generally speaking, fall within WP:NFCC criteria. Also - again, generally speaking - WP:NFCI #8 applies ("Images with iconic status or historical importance"). My concern here is potentially excessive use of free media. For example, 10 fair use photographs of a non-living person in his or her biography would certainly be excessive (1 or 2 should be enough). This is, however, a slightly different case because each photograph shows different people and different aspects of the topic. I suppose a judicious narrowing down of the list would be in order, governed perhaps by a more strict reading of WP:NFCI #8. For example, the photo in page 6 could definitely be described as "iconic", while e.g. the one in page 66 is less so. GregorB (talk) 14:08, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

One possible criterion for selection is WP:CAPTION potential: the better the image is in providing context, as explained in its caption, the better it fits its fair use purpose. GregorB (talk) 14:15, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Non-free upload procedure

I don't know who has re-written all the image upload dialogues for en-wiki, but I am hugely impressed.

I just uploaded a fair-use image of the famous UK political poster File:Labour Isnt Working.jpg, having seen a new article on it listed in DYK, and IMO this output, generated automatically by WP:File Upload Wizard from prompted inputs is a huge step in the right direction. I don't know who's been active in bringing this to fruition, but they deserve all the barnstars going. Jheald (talk) 15:50, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

I believe User:Future Perfect at Sunrise was the big driver behind that, though you can check that upload form page and check the other contributors (and even make further suggestions at its talk) --MASEM (t) 14:45, 12 January 2013 (UTC)