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Red panda

Featured article candidates/Red panda/archive1

Nominator(s): LittleJerry (talk) and BhagyaMani (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In time for the release of the new Disney/Pixar film Turning Red. This article was at GA for some years and the user who brought it there appears to be inactive. We've re-written and revise it, got a peer review, a copyedit and source cleanup. The time has come for FAC. LittleJerry (talk) 14:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Image review:

Sources are cited for the panda distribution on File:RedPanda distribution.png, but not the source of the underlying topographic map. Is it freely licensed?

BhagyaMani? LittleJerry (talk) 20:00, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the underlying topo map is freely licensed. – BhagyaMani (talk) 20:27, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other licensing, and image placement, looks ok (t · c) buidhe 19:53, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sdkb

As background, I have no particular expertise in biology or animal articles on Wikipedia, so I'll be reviewing this from a lay perspective. Looking forward to it! {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

The unbolding of the scientific name threw me off for a minute, but on checking it appears to conform to our recommended style. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I question whether there's a need to wikilink million years ago—everyone knows what years are, and multiplying that by a million is a pretty straightforward calculation. The wikilink to the toolforge page very much caught me off guard, but I assume that's our normal way of handling links like that? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This link is automatically generated by the {{mya}}. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There were others at the template talk page with the same concern, so I've gone ahead and updated it to remove the overlink. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:38, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps wikilink coniferous forests, as some readers may be unfamiliar with what they are. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is threatened by poaching, destruction and fragmentation of habitat due to deforestation. This isn't grammatically correct, since it's a list of only two items (the second being a compound item) separated only by a comma. I'd suggest changing to It is threatened by poaching, as well as destruction and fragmentation of habitat due to deforestation. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 21:04, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should [Ee]ndangered be capitalized? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think so, because it is also capitalised by default in the taxobox. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:01, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The taxobox is part of the infobox, and we begin each line in the infobox in sentence case, so I think that's likely why it's capitalized there. But we don't capitalize it at the endangered species article, and it doesn't look like a word typically capitalized in normal usage. Is it a formal term or just a word? We could look at MOS:LINK, ask at that talk, or look to examples of other featured animals to get more clarity on this. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:42, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I consider it as a formal term when used in the context of Red List classification, like the other terms as well, e.g. Least Concern, Near Threatened that are capitalised in taxoboxes. – BhagyaMani (talk) 08:02, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's been some recent discussion on whether to wikilink lesser-known countries that found a consensus that articles about less recognizable countries...can and should be wikilinked if doing so would benefit the reader. Bhutan seems likely to be in that category, and perhaps Nepal as well. This is an editorial discretion thing, so I'm fine with whatever you decide, but just something to consider. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I linked them all. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:09, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, I definitely wouldn't link China, though; that's a clear MOS:OVERLINK. Sorry it's such a blurry line haha, but it's somewhere in the middle. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:21, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unlinked China. LittleJerry (talk) 23:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

International Red Panda Day is italicized in the lead but not the body; which is correct? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What guidance does MOS:ITAL have on italicizing this or not? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 23:14, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is now italicized in the lead but not the body. Please address. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Overall impressions so far are good! The lead photo is fantastically cute {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sdkb any more? LittleJerry (talk) 19:48, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't yet change the sentence in the lead .. by poaching, as well as .. suggested by Sdkb. LittleJerry: if you also think that this is necessary, please amend. – BhagyaMani (talk) 20:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:04, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The [Ee]ndangered capitalization question and the holiday italicization question are the two other things I'd still like to see resolved a little more thoroughly, but happy to move on while those are being addressed. (I also may return to the lead at the end for any lead-body integrity stuff.) Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 21:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology

I'm surprised {{transl}} doesn't have a |lit= parameter for "claw" or "paw", but seems not, and that's outside the scope here (just noting in case anyone's interested in taking it on). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I made this tweak. Deciding when to write out the full term vs. just use "it" is always a tricky balance. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Some editors might object to wikilinking Latin and Ancient Greek per MOS:OVERLINK, which advises against linking major languages, but IAR I don't have an issue with it, and Nepali language is certainly linkable. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Taxonomy

Species description should probably be wikilinked (and also in lead). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@BhagyaMani: Per @AryKun below, it appears you did not actually add this. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 07:17, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's inconsistent Oxford comma usage, given no comma after "jawbones" but one after "comic books" in lead. MOS:OXFORD merely requires consistency, but as a dedicated Oxford comma partisan, I'm afraid I'll have to instafail this if you decide to leave it out 😛 {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Also after "less white face". You may wish to go through the article to check for other consistencies. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London should be italicized, right? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed as not important. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sichuan should probably be wikilinked. More generally, I'd suggest reviewing the geographic wikilinking decisions throughout the article, as having Northeast India linked but this not is inconsistent no matter where one falls on the overlink-underlink continuum. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The introductory portion of this section cites a lot of people by name, but then the 2020 phylogenetic analysis doesn't give any name(s). Is this deliberate? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the linked people are authorities for scientific names. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A 1982 study examined the dental and cranial similarities and differences between the red panda and the giant panda, other bears and procyonids would lead to the species being placed in its own family Ailuridae. Do you mean 1982 study that examined? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:37, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following cladogram is based on This seems like a WP:SELFREF; is there any way to avoid it, or is this typical for articles of this type? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a selfref, but not uncommon to explain the basis of a cladogram. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Could you point to any recently promoted animal articles that have something similar? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:19, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Turtle. LittleJerry (talk) 18:21, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dentition is a potentially unfamiliar term and should probably be wikilinked. More generally, as a lay reader, I'm finding all the taxonomy section rather jargony and hard to follow, but that may be unavoidable. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed some jargon. LittleJerry (talk) 00:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks better! {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:20, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Alopecoyon not linked? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

the phylogeny section begins with "The placement of the red panda on the evolutionary tree has been debated." re-emphasised in the lead as "The red panda's place on the evolutionary tree has been debated, but modern genetic evidence places it … " is this an extraordinary fact? ~ cygnis insignis 13:54, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

When we started to overhaul this page, there was a similar sentence in this section. I suppose, ↑ sentence is a kind of residue of this old version. LittleJerry? – BhagyaMani (talk) 16:28, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the question. The red panda's taxonomy was historically debated but DNA evidence has clarified it. LittleJerry (talk) 20:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Characteristics

The red panda's coat has a striking colour pattern Is it our place to say what's striking vs. not? Seems a little questionable on neutrality grounds. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changed. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article appears to use British English (or some non-American variant), so it might be a good idea to put {{Use British English}} at the top to aid editors or bots in knowing this. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Colon (anatomy) is another example of underlinking. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added. – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sdkb: what do you think of the sequence of paragraphs in this section? – BhagyaMani (talk) 22:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I care all that much. Putting size first is definitely good, but beyond that I don't see a clear order among coat, thumb, and skull. I might have done size, skull, coat, thumb, trying to put the most important aspects first. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:23, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I moved coat up to first. The size section is really meant to be an "overall body description" section and the skull section is about its adaptations to its bamboo diet. LittleJerry (talk) 12:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for moving. I like this sequence much better. – BhagyaMani (talk) 16:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Distribution and habitat

The image captions seem a little inconsistent, in that some say a red panda whereas others just say red panda. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You've got another clear overlink with India. Could you go through the article overall to refine the linking so I don't have to keep pointing out specific instances? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A trickier linking situation: Gongshan Mountains. I can't find any article on them here or (using Google Translate) on zh-WP, but I'd think a mountain range would be notable. Should they be a redlink? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Same with Liangshan Mountains. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Linked both. LittleJerry (talk) 13:06, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rhododendron looks to be a scientific name italicized at its article; should it be here, too? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why is slope linked to wiktionary? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The % symbols go against MOS:PERCENT, I think, but IAR I don't mind them (perhaps that guideline should be revised?). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 13:29, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Fengtongzhai and Yele nature reserves seem like the sort of topic that would 100% have articles if they were in a western country; for here, that means redlinks or ILLs. I found Fēngtǒngzhài (Q22329689), which has an article in one language, which is of course...Ukrainian... Not sure about Yele, but if you don't speak Chinese, probably worth asking someone who does. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added redlinks. LittleJerry (talk) 13:25, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Should the habitat map appear in this section, not just the lead? (Also, it probably needs a reference, as I'm not sure it's enough just to have the reference on Commons, as that's external.) {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:45, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is typical for animal and mammal articles. LittleJerry (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Behaviour and ecology

The majority of studies between 1827 and 2020 have been based in captivity. I think you mean based on animals in captivity—the studies themselves are not captive haha. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's some plurality inconsistency—compare singular It typically rests to plural Their lifespan in captivity. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I assume it likes to hang out in trees due to predators at ground level, but I haven't found any discussion of predators yet. Could that be added? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing is known about potential predators. I thought we made clear that it hangs around in trees because that's were it finds the majority of its food?– BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I feel like it's rather unusual for a small animal like that not to have predators. Could a note about that be added somewhere? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:28, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I searched for info on predators multiple times, but found only two mentioned in grey literature without any reference. Several potential ones come to mind, but nobody published anything about a single red panda having been killed by a cat or a raptor. But to state this on the page itself would be WP:OR. – BhagyaMani (talk) 06:26, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I found the Smithsonian saying leopards and jackals. Could you look further? An animal's predators are a key fact about it, and although I grant that competition isn't as fierce in the mountains as in e.g. a jungle, I still think we need discussion here to meet WP:FACRIT 1b. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:52, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If scientific papers and academic books don't mention predators then it is not that important. I don't see the need to dig up a Smithsonian website. Predators are not always necessary for animal articles. Certainly not as important as diet. LittleJerry (talk) 23:39, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If a simple fact sheet lists the predators, I'd be surprised if none of the more academic treatments discuss them. I don't think we need a whole section on predators, but something that eats them and that they've evolved to avoid certainly seems relevant enough for a sentence to me. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 01:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it really lists them. It states "Red pandas will climb trees and rocks to escape predators, such as leopards and jackals." It seems to be mentioning these offhandedly as potential predators. There doesn't seem to any documentation of red pandas being preyed on. Believe me, BM and I would have put them there if they were mentioned in the literature. LittleJerry (talk) 01:25, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Note the absence of an explicit statement on this website that any of the 2 carnivores actually preyed on a red panda. Or that hair, teeth, claws, paws were ever found in their scat. This is an arbitrary selection. – BhagyaMani (talk) 06:25, 2 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any estimates of average lifespan in the wild? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. To figure this out, somebody would have needed to identify and observe individuals from birth to death. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be possible to use "stem" or "stalk" instead of "culm", or would that be inaccurate? It's jargon, and although it's linked on first mention in the previous section, readers who jump around (which is many/most of them) may be thrown off by it. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Culm is the term used in several sources. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changed, Culm is a type of stem. LittleJerry (talk) 12:50, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The red panda is a poor digester of bamboo, which passes through its gut in two to four hours. I'm curious why this would be—aren't most animals adapted to be good digesters of their primary food? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:46, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How is : shoots are *easier* digestable than ... ?? – BhagyaMani (talk) 13:07, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

shoots are better digestible than leaves This sounds a little weird; maybe more digestible instead? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:46, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Bleating is recorded after scent-marking and sniffing and males may bleat during courtship, particularly before mounting, while twittering is made by mating females. I feel like this could be worded better. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Split up. LittleJerry (talk) 12:46, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

adopt a bipedal posture "Bipedal" is unlinked jargon. Linking it would help, but I think it'd probably be even better to just use plain language, e.g. "stand up on their hind legs". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

the couple may groom each other between mounting bouts I'd wikilink only over the word "groom". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence about lordosis pose might be better placed in the reproduction section. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moved. LittleJerry (talk) 12:38, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

builds a nest using material from nearby This is a little vague—are there typical materials? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 12:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's inconsistency between "faeces" and "feces"; choose one and stick with it. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed one of them has to be chosen, but keep in mind that changing to "feces" will require the whole article to be changed to American English, which in its current state is in British English. Wretchskull (talk) 09:41, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your note! Changed this again. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:52, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The "health" subsection might be more specifically titled "diseases". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 06:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Revised. – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Langtang National Park is not linked on first reference. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Threats

The primary threats to the red panda are destruction and fragmentation of habitat caused by multiple circumstances such as increasing human population, deforestation, illegal collection of non-timber forest products and poaching, disturbances by herders and livestock, lack of law enforcement and funding. We need to decide which level we're listing on. Having both poaching and "lack of law enforcement and funding" doesn't make sense, as presumably the poaching is just a consequence of the lack of law enforcement. I'd suggest removing that last item, as it's not particularly clear. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 03:31, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that lack of funding is not a threat : removed. – BhagyaMani (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What about lack of law enforcement? And increasing human population. Neither of those things directly lead to red panda deaths in the way that e.g. poaching does. Instead, lack of law enforcement presumably leads to poaching, and increasing population presumably leads to habitat destruction. We shouldn't be mixing direct causes and root causes together in the same sentence. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:03, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

3,597.9 km² (1,389.2 sq mi) of red panda habitat were logged between the mid 1970s and late 1990s. I highly doubt they were able to measure that precisely. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 20:40, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

since roads to the border with China were built starting in the early 2000s, red panda skins and live animals are traded and smuggled across the border. Tense mismatch between "since" and "are". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 17:51, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Describing the uses of the fur in Chinese culture in the "threats" section rather than the "cultural significance" section is a highly loaded choice, and one I don't think we can justify as neutral. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Moved. LittleJerry (talk) 17:58, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is a lot of overlinking in this section. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 20:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Trimmed. LittleJerry (talk) 21:08, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The cut lumber stock in Sichuan alone reached 2,661,000 m³ (94,000,000 cu ft) in 1958–1960 This is an extremely old statistic. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Conservation

The International Red Panda Studbook is the only italicized link in this section that makes clear sense to me. Can you justify the others under MOS:ITALIC, or do they need correction? (I made a query on this same question in the lead.) {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

To preserve the link to studbook, how about In 1978, a breed registry, the International Red Panda Studbook, was set up, followed...? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:16, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Nepal government ratified I think we want Nepali government here, since it would sound odd if it were e.g. The France government ratified rather than French government. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cubs that were born later were sent to other zoos so that about 250 red pandas had been exhibited in zoos by 1969. Needs rephrasing for grammar; I'd suggest Cubs that were born later were sent to other zoos; by 1969, about 250 red pandas had been exhibited in zoos. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For the protected areas, we should either just give the numbers or we should list them out; we shouldn't mix the formats by listing those out in other countries but not in China. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

BhagyaMani? Perhaps we should remove the table? LittleJerry (talk) 17:47, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, protected areas form the core of nature conservation, so would be missing if we now omitted such details, in particular in view of so many details in all the other sections. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll check whether the Chinese authors provided their names. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:49, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How about just giving the number of parks for each country? LittleJerry (talk) 18:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wei et al. (2021) did not provide their full names, hence it is complicated to figure them out. E.g. they list "Qomolangma" in Tibet, but unclear is whether they refer to this huge Qomolangma National Nature Preserve or Qomolangma Feng National Nature Reserve : I did not find anything about records in either one. Nor did I find records in most of the others listed by Wei et al. (2021). Re Sichuan : acc. to Dong et al. (2021), Giant Panda National Park was established in 2017 + encompasses several nature reserves where it has been recorded. Therefore, I propose to list ONLY those with published records in the table. That way we can keep the table but without having to redlink some 30+ reserves. – BhagyaMani (talk) 15:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You've revised the conservation table to list ONLY those with published records, but it's not clear to me what "published records" means, and there is nothing in the article itself saying that it's only a partial list. It seems like a rather hard thing to establish—how do you know there aren't "published records" in Chinese that list out the reserves? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:15, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yarlung Tsangpo Grand Canyon Nature Reserve is a MOS:PARTIALNAMELINK violation. I'd suggest creating a redirect from Yarlung Tsangpo Grand Canyon Nature Reserve and linking to that. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I would presume that all national parks are notable, so Imawbum National Park should be redlinked or {{ill}} linked if it exists in Burmese (which I'd hope it would). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:09, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This section feels a little like it's just listing out individual conservation programs rather than giving a broader overview. Without subject-area knowledge, it's hard for me to tell whether the listed examples were carefully curated or are just a mix with geographic or other biases, but I'd encourage other reviewers to scrutinize. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Another MOS:PARTIALNAMELINK issue with studbook. Oh, and later in that sentence, too. Both of these links are valuable, but we should rephrase so that they can be kept without this issue. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why is the 2015 Japan sentence after the 2019 Europe sentence and 2016 Padmaja sentence? If this section is chronological, stick to it. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cultural significance

an ethnic group is vague. Specify. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Arunachal Pradesh is linked twice above in the article, but not again here. Why? I'm quite lenient on MOS:REPEATLINK, given that most readers skip around, but it needs to be done deliberately. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tribal people in Arunachal Pradesh Is it several groups or just one? If just one, same concern as above. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Clarified. LittleJerry (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

an Indian artist Any reason not to name them? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thomas Hardwicke commissioned several Indian artists to paint animals, but their names are not known. – BhagyaMani (talk) 08:33, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay; maybe write an unknown Indian artist, then? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:07, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changed. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The 1820 painting is presumably in the public domain; it (or another cultural depiction of the red panda) should be included as a visual for this section. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did not find this watercolour painting in Commons. Likely that not all the paintings of Hardwicke's large collection of some 4500 paintings were made available. This painting is not part of the small selection published by John Edward Gray in 2 volumes in 1830–1835. – BhagyaMani (talk) 08:50, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per Hardwicke's article, The collection was bequeathed to the British Museum in 1835 which was later partly moved to the Natural History Museum. So reach out to the museums if you have to, but it should be possible to obtain. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:03, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a bit much for a Wikipedian to have to track down an image not available on the web or commons. The best I got was a reproduced copy in the sourced article. I don't know if we can use remade copies of PD works. LittleJerry (talk) 20:54, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree! Lowther explicitly stated that the painting has not been published, hence is not license-free. – BhagyaMani (talk) 21:28, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Work from 1820 is in the public domain, no matter if it's been published before or not. See the Hirtle chart. The good news: sourcing from a reproduced copy from the article is fine, so long as it's of sufficient quality—a PD work is still a PD work, even if it appears (unmodified) in a licensed work. It's a similar situation to commons:Commons:Reuse of PD-Art photographs. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 04:06, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That may be true for a large number of art pieces. But not for all : some drawings by Hemprich & Ehrenberg from the 1830s are worth so much money that collectors did not make them public. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:10, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added drawing, but it is more fitting for the taxonomy section. There are hardly any available red panda art in commons that count as "culture" but are more for education/science. LittleJerry (talk) 15:29, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

hardly any available red panda art? What about File:Tobu Zoo Park Shuttle Bus lesser panda.jpg, or (just imported from Flickr) File:Flower red panda.jpg / File:Ruby the red panda, mascot of the 2018 IAAF World Indoor Championships.jpg / File:International Red Panda Day sign at the San Francisco Zoo.jpg? File:Firefox logo, 2019.svg is free, too. We have enough for an entire gallery if we wanted. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:54, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Added firefox logo. LittleJerry (talk) 22:16, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you consider the firefox logo relevant here, and not e.g. the 19th century painting that used to be in the section *Taxonomy*? – BhagyaMani (talk) 09:10, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I explained above. The 19th century painting is scientific/education. LittleJerry (talk) 13:25, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Per MOS:SPECIFICLINK, List of Indian state animals might be a better wikilink than state animal (although if you don't want to change which words are linked over, there's an MOS:EGG concern, so I'll defer to your preference; this is a recurring issue that I wish the community would discuss further). {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:31, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The red panda is the namesake of the Firefox browser, and it has been used as the namesake of companies and music bands. This should be rephrased, as Firefox is a company, whereas this holds it in a separate category. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. LittleJerry (talk) 23:31, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cultural significance sections quite often become listcruft, so I'm glad to see that avoided here, and I'd suggest adding a hidden comment with some strongly worded language as an WP:ENDURE precaution. However, overall, this section feels rather anemic compared to the quite detailed coverage above of e.g. conservation, so I'd like to see more. I clicked through to doi:10.1016/B978-0-12-823753-3.00002-8, which seems like an excellent source, but it doesn't appear fully mined, as even just in the abstract, things like do not seem to constitute a substantial part of the culture or folklore of their range states and particularly popular on the social media seem highly relevant but are not included. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:23, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Expanded. LittleJerry (talk) 14:41, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks better. I wonder, should we give in-text attribution for Glatson/Gebauer? And sorry to be picky on this after I asked you to expand, but the local brewery thing is the type of listcruft I'd like us to avoid—I can't see any way that'd be due. {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Removed. LittleJerry (talk) 19:53, 5 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And about the WP:INTEXT comment for the first two sentences of this section? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:16, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

External links

Dedicated to always irks me as promotional language (see WP:MISSIONSTATEMENT); could that be changed? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 07:02, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Changed. LittleJerry (talk) 12:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is perhaps a hot take, but I have to question the presence of {{Wikispecies}}. The external links guideline recommends against including Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article. Looking at Wikispecies' rather pitiful entry on the red panda, I'm not seeing anything of value there that we don't also have here. (Or am I missing something?) For neutrality reasons, we shouldn't give preference to other sites just because they're WMF-affiliated, as past precedent with {{Wikinews}} has affirmed. So is there really any reason to include it? Note that even if it's removed here, it'll still be present in the left sidebar under "in other projects". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 07:02, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is a fairly standard wikispecies entry, afaik, I don't see it as comparable to linking wikinews ~ cygnis insignis 10:59, 26 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I realize it's been used elsewhere, but that's other stuff; is there any justification under the external links guideline for including it? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 05:32, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not presenting an argument either way, it was a response to the description as a "rather pitiful entry". ~ cygnis insignis 06:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Could this be addressed? {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 22:17, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sdkb, I think we fixed everything. LittleJerry (talk) 21:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from AryKun

Will do soon. AryKun (talk) 06:21, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Link described in the Taxonomy section.

Done. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"his paper was published only six years later" → "his paper was only published six years after Cuvier's"

Revised and added ta ref to this article. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"For a long time" → Kind of ambiguous, any exact-ish dates?

I removed this sentence, as knowledge about the red panda's behaviour is anyway not relevant in this section. – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"(sensu stricto)" Sensu stricto should be italicized, and perhaps consider using a less technical phrase.

Revised + removed the int link – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"lineage of the modern panda" → Presumably you mean red panda, but just panda is usually used to refer to the giant panda.

Revised + removed the int link – BhagyaMani (talk) 07:38, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Many of the images lack alt text.

Added. LittleJerry (talk) 14:45, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

More to come. AryKun (talk) 06:53, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 :*Done. – [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 21:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
 :*:What guidance does [[MOS:ITAL]] have on italicizing this or not? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 23:14, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
+:*::This is now italicized in the lead but not the body. Please address. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 Overall impressions so far are good! The lead photo is fantastically cute {{smiley}} <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 19:54, 23 February 2022 (UTC)
@@ Line 170: / Line 171: @@
 *There is a lot of overlinking in this section. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 20:19, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 ::Trimmed. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 21:08, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
+*{{tq|The cut lumber stock in Sichuan alone reached 2,661,000 m<sup>3</sup> (94,000,000 cu ft) in 1958–1960}} This is an extremely old statistic. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:14, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 =====Conservation=====
 *The ''International Red Panda Studbook'' is the only italicized link in this section that makes clear sense to me. Can you justify the others under [[MOS:ITALIC]], or do they need correction? (I made a query on this same question in the lead.) <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 ::Fixed. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
+:::To preserve the link to [[studbook]], how about {{tq|In 1978, a [[breed registry]], the ''International Red Panda Studbook'', was set up, followed...}}? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:16, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 *{{tq|The Nepal government ratified}} I think we want {{tq|Nepali government}} here, since it would sound odd if it were e.g. {{tq|The France government ratified}} rather than {{tq|French government}}. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 ::Fixed. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
@@ Line 184: / Line 187: @@
 :::How about just giving the number of parks for each country? [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 18:18, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
 ::Wei et al. (2021) did not provide their full names, hence it is complicated to figure them out. E.g. they list "Qomolangma" in Tibet, but unclear is whether they refer to this huge [[Qomolangma National Nature Preserve]] or [[Qomolangma Feng National Nature Reserve]] : I did not find anything about records in either one. Nor did I find records in most of the others listed by Wei et al. (2021). Re Sichuan : acc. to Dong et al. (2021), [[Giant Panda National Park]] was established in 2017 + encompasses several nature reserves where it has been recorded. Therefore, I propose to list ONLY those with published records in the table. That way we can keep the table but without having to redlink some 30+ reserves. – [[User:BhagyaMani|BhagyaMani]] ([[User talk:BhagyaMani|talk]]) 15:31, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
+:::You've revised the conservation table to {{tq|list ONLY those with published records}}, but it's not clear to me what "published records" means, and there is nothing in the article itself saying that it's only a partial list. It seems like a rather hard thing to establish—how do you know there aren't "published records" in Chinese that list out the reserves? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:15, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 *{{tq|[[Yarlung Tsangpo Grand Canyon]] Nature Reserve}} is a [[MOS:PARTIALNAMELINK]] violation. I'd suggest creating a redirect from [[Yarlung Tsangpo Grand Canyon Nature Reserve]] and linking to that. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:03, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 ::Fixed. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 23:06, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
@@ Line 225: / Line 229: @@
 :::Looks better. I wonder, should we give [[WP:INTEXT|in-text]] attribution for Glatson/Gebauer? And sorry to be picky on this after I asked you to expand, but the local brewery thing is the type of listcruft I'd like us to avoid—I can't see any way that'd be [[WP:DUE|due]]. <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 19:09, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 ::::Removed. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 19:53, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
+:::::And about the [[WP:INTEXT]] comment for the first two sentences of this section? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:16, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 =====External links=====
@@ Line 234: / Line 239: @@
 *::Yeah, I realize it's been used elsewhere, but that's [[WP:OTHERSTUFF|other stuff]]; is there any justification under the external links guideline for including it? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 05:32, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
 *:::I'm not presenting an argument either way, it was a response to the description as a "rather pitiful entry". ~ [[User talk:Cygnis insignis|cygnis insignis]] 06:43, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
+*:Could this be addressed? <span style="color:#AAA"><small>&#123;{u&#124;</small><span style="border-radius:9em;padding:0 5px;background:#088">[[User:Sdkb|<span style="color:#FFF">'''Sdkb'''</span>]]</span><small>}&#125;</small></span> <sup>[[User talk:Sdkb|'''talk''']]</sup> 22:17, 7 March 2022 (UTC)
 {{u|Sdkb}}, I think we fixed everything. [[User:LittleJerry|LittleJerry]] ([[User talk:LittleJerry|talk]]) 21:28, 7 March 2022 (UTC)