Talk:2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh

Article created

Created this article in the midst of reports by Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Defense starting a "anti-terrorist military operation"

This has just been launched a few minutes ago, and there is no credible and substantial information as of now aside from the Ministry of Defense. U2You Too (talk) 09:52, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

"Third" Nagorno-Karabakh War? Nemoralis (talk) 09:55, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Feel free to move the article if there is enough evidence that this will be another clash instead of an all-out war like 2020. Although from the statement published by the Azerbaijan MOD, this doesn't look like just another series of clashes, thus the name of the article U2You Too (talk) 09:57, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Azerbaijan MOD said it is "local anti-terrorist activities". I think we can move it for now: 2023 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes Nemoralis (talk) 10:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Its officially a war now

https://www.politico.eu/article/azerbaijan-launch-anti-terror-operation-nagorno-karabakh-armenia/ Gorgonopsi (talk) 10:33, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

With your logic, we should call all the clashes listed in {{Campaignbox Nagorno-Karabakh conflict}} war Nemoralis (talk) 10:43, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

A literal offensive is more than a war, use your brains Nemoralis, no offence 92.40.218.187 (talk) 11:48, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

It's a war. there is no way that you could argue its a tensy tiny little clash. Scu ba (talk) 17:08, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: Good work on the article!

Tails Wx 13:03, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 19 September 2023

September 2023 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes → 2023 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes – There is no page called 2023 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes, "September" is redundant. Beshogur (talk) 13:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

• Comment This can be closed as the word "clashes" has been restored as the name of the page. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 15:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Article title

Current title is misleading, it should be changed to "2023 Nagorno-Karabakh offensive" or "2023 Nagorno-Karabakh attack" per sources:

• Azerbaijan launches military action in Karabakh 'to disarm' Armenians
• Nagorno-Karabakh live: Azerbaijan launches attack on Armenian positions
• Azerbaijan launches operation against Armenian forces in Nagorno-Karabakh
• Azerbaijan launches operation against Nagorno-Karabakh
• Azerbaijan launches attack in Nagorno-Karabakh, announces ‘evacuation’ of Armenian population
• Azerbaijan opens fire on Armenian positions in Nagorno-Karabakh, and 2 people are reported killed
• Blasts rock Nagorno-Karabakh as Azerbaijan launches military operation
• Azerbaijan Launches Offensive In Breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh, Children Among Casualties
• Nagorno-Karabakh: Azerbaijan sends troops into enclave
• Azerbaijan Says Military Operation Underway in Nagorno-Karabakh

• BREAKING: At least 2 dead as Azerbaijan launches major attack on Karabakh
• Stepanakert is under attack
• At approximately 1 p.m., Azerbaijani Armed Forces launched a wide-scale attack against Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh)

- Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 14:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Governor Sheng (talk) 14:48, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree strongly, the Azeris have declared an operation. This ain't just some misunderstanding or accident. 111.92.27.66 (talk) 14:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Where does the "offensive" part come from? Beshogur (talk) 15:15, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Probably since they fired first. Borgenland (talk) 17:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I agree, at the very least it should be called offensive. As they have taken territory already. I also support moving this to use the "War" terminology as Azerbaijan has demanded total surrender. Craig VG (talk) 17:28, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Several areas, all at once, all perpetrated by one side? Offensive is the proper term. Jebiguess (talk) 17:43, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. 'Clashes', in my opinion, signifies an accidental attack. This was not an accident. Sardon1 (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Kevo327: please make an official request following Wikipedia's procedures, so the proposal can be enacted, as all the users support it. --Governor Sheng (talk) 19:39, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

@Governor Sheng, @Borgenland, @Jebiguess @Sardon1 @Craig VG ping for those who commented here - I already made a Move request, see discussion. A bot keeps changing the move link though to the one that is already the article name, if someone could fix this permanently it'll be appreciated. - Kevo³²⁷ (talk) 19:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

I think you'll need to wait for a bot to automatically list your request at the bottom of today's requests. The one you're trying to change was already carried out. Governor Sheng (talk) 19:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

War?

If this escalates, should we change the title to "Third Nagorno Karabakh war"? Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 16:27, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 19 September 2023

2023 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes → Third Nagorno-Karabakh War – This is no longer a small string of clashes, nor was it ever a small string of clashes. I have no idea why this article is titled "clashes." It is blatantly obvious this is a full scale invasion of Nagorno-Karabakh, and as such we should have a name that reflects reality. Scu ba (talk) 17:06, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Depends. It's too early to call it. Beshogur (talk) 17:10, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Seeing that Azerbaijan has announced this will continue until "surrender" and they will fight to "the end", this is clearly more than clashes.

BBC Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66851975 Craig VG (talk) 17:23, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Indeed:

"it was clear from the Azerbaijani ultimatum that Baku's aim was to complete its conquest of the mountainous enclave."

Unfortunately, this is a war. Craig VG (talk) 17:25, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Support: At this point the clashes are intense to te point that we can call it a war, it will be a matter of time until sources call this a war Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 17:32, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTALBALLing here. At the moment, it's an offensive per sources in the discussion above, but if Artsakh or Armenia launches counter-operations and sources call it a war, then it can be called one. Jebiguess (talk) 17:44, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: It is still too early to refer to it as a war. However, I would support renaming the article if the circumstances would justify such a move (example: 1,000+ deaths etc.). --Governor Sheng (talk) 17:46, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Support: It's obvious this is a invasion of nagorno-karabakh, although its in its infancy right now, its only been a few hours, its 100% gonna evolve into a full scale war --ManU9827 (talk) 18:35, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Support: Unfortunately it seems we're getting there... Chaotic Enby (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move, 19 September 2023 - declined

Only one move request at a time on any given talk page

2023 Nagorno-Karabakh clashes → 2023 Azerbaijani offensive of Nagorno-Karabakh – Per majority WP:RS and commonality, see comment for multiple sources + more. A number of reliable sources describe Azerbaijan's military operations as a premeditated "launched" "operation", and/or use the words "offensive" or "attack." To be consistent with this, I propose we rename the article to "2023 Azerbaijani offensive of Nagorno-Karabakh" - Kevo327 (talk) 18:12, 19 September 2023 (UTC) Support as nominator. - Kevo327 (talk) 18:46, 19 September 2023 (UTC) It is already mentioned that it's an offensive. However I don't think those titles are proper names. I think it's best to wait the outcome. Beshogur (talk) 18:17, 19 September 2023 (UTC) The current title isn't even close to common. What I'm suggesting is what's being reported by majority sources currently, Azerbaijani offensive or attack. We can change the title later if it changes in WP:RS, but now, we should use what is being reported by majority sources. - Kevo327 (talk) 18:35, 19 September 2023 (UTC) It's not about comonname. 2023 x clashes is what we generally use in wikipedia. It shouldn't have comonname for now. We don't even know if this will end tomorrow or will continue as full scale war. Beshogur (talk) 19:14, 19 September 2023 (UTC) Id say "of" should be "in" because proper grammar. Lukt64 (talk) 19:02, 19 September 2023 (UTC) "Against" could also be a possibility, but yes. Chaotic Enby (talk) 19:45, 19 September 2023 (UTC) Weak agree: I like the above proposal "2023 Nagorno Karabakh offensive" more. --Governor Sheng (talk) 19:41, 19 September 2023 (UTC) Oppose, pedantic, should be classified as "Third Nagorno-Karabakh War" Scu ba (talk) 19:47, 19 September 2023 (UTC)