Talk:Noah

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Refs needed

Can anyone provide references for these statements? "Some scholars to believe that Noah was originally the inventor of wine..." What scholars? "It has been suggested that the Flood story may originally have belonged to Enoch". Suggested by who? This comes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, but needs refs from the original sources (i.e., from whatever the authors of the encyclopedia were quoting from). PiCo 01:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Curse of Ham

I am not sure where I read this, so for any of you fanatics out there that have the time to research this, here it goes:

Ham was cursed not because he saw his father naked, but because he stole his garment, which was the same garment that was given to Adam (Genesis 3:21) when he was kicked out of the Garden of Eden. This garment also represented the beginning of animal sacrifice (because it was a coat of skin - which came from an animal) to represent the coming of a Savior to be sacrificed for the sins of all mankind (and although an alter is not mentioned, this is the first reference to an alter being used for sacrifice - this being the same type of sacrifice that was made by Abel, Noah, and many others including Moses - Genesis 4:4, Genesis 9:9, Exodus 20:24 as well as many others). The making of this coat would have been the first sacrifice of a living creature. This coat was also said to be a symbol to all creatures not to harm Adam, which is infered in Genesis 9:2 when God tells Noah that all animals will fear him.

It was also said in the book that I got this information from that Nimrod "a mighty hunter," who was a decendand of Ham (Genesis 10:8-9), may have used this garment to lure animals to him so that he could slay them. This idea also came from Genesis 9:2 when it says "into your hands are all [animals] delivered." If this were the case, it would also explain how Noah was able to get so many different animals in the ark.

Well, there it is. Obviously it is not word for word. Sorry I don't own the book where I read this anymore. I don't remember its title or anything. Despite that I don't own the book anymore, and am unsure who first gave rise to this idea, it is obvious that there is some consideration to be made in reference to the ideas presented here.

I mean, to even consider that such a hefty curse would be put upon someone for seeing a naked man (much less his own father) is somewhat naive.

Nammerama 17:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Let us know when you find the book :-). PiCo 04:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, if you go to google.com and use these words together in this order "noah ham garment hunter" without the quotation marks you can find plenty of references for ideas mentioned above. Again, I don't have time to go through and reference everything, but it is very fascinating, and if anyone has the time it should be added to this article or to the curse of ham article. Nammerama 06:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Section title?

The section title "In the Hebrew Torah" makes little sense. The Torah is by defintion in Hebrew. "In the Hebrew Bible" or "In the Torah" would make more sense. Thoughts? JoshuaZ 02:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Just "Summary" I think - that's what that section is, a summary of the story.PiCo 05:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Did the flood really happen?

Does anyone have any essays, tv documentaries or even any web pages that discuss if this great flood even actually happened? Or if some kind of flood did happen, did it happen world over, or just in the region Noah lived in? I came here interested in seeing what 200 years enlightened science had discovered about this mythical flood, but this web page just tells the story, it doesn't delve into wether it actually happened, or never really happened at all JayKeaton 06:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes the flood was a real flood, but it was a river flood about 2900 BC and affected only a few cities in southern Sumer (Iraq). See the Ziusudra page for more ancient versions of the flood myth. The Ziusudra page links to the Atrahasis page. The Atrahasis myth clearly describes the flood as a river flood. Greensburger 06:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes the flood was a real flood covering the entire earth. http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/flood.asp ^rossnixon 00:46, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Your mileage may vary :). PiCo 01:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC) The BBC made a TV documentary called Noah's Ark, which you might possibly be able to get hold of on DVD. It basically says that the bible story is based on the Ziasudra story, and tyhe flood was a once-in-a-thousand-years type event but localised to the Tigris/Euphrates valley. It also assumes that Ziasudra was a real person, which is a pretty big assumption. There's another theory to the effect that a meteor might have done it - exactly how the meteor is supposed to have caused the flood I don't recall, but it seems fitting, given the derivation of the word "meteorological", meaning concerning the weather. PiCo 05:05, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The word "flood" is not used in Genesis 8. Instead the word "waters" is used, the waters of the Persian Gulf. The Hebrew word "erets" which is usually translated "earth" did not mean the planet earth but rather the ground, the soil, the dirt that a farmer plows. To exaggerate 15 cubits of water on the ground in the Euphrates River valley to the planet earth is not supported by the Genesis text. All flesh died that moved upon the erets. Yes all the people and animals died in the flooded lowlands of southern Iraq. But the people who climbed to high hills above the 15 cubits of Genesis 7:20 did not die. They were not mentioned because they were beyond the scope of the story. The rest of the world outside southern Iraq was also not mentioned because it was beyond the scope of the story. Greensburger 04:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Popular Culture section

None of these things in the pop culture section are important to the subject of "Noah". None of them have any hope of being integrated into the article. I'm removing the section. SchmuckyTheCat 22:17, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

It is ridiculous to remove this section. The popular culture section is entirely relevant to this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Musicman88 (talk • contribs)

In what way? SchmuckyTheCat 00:12, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It serves absolutely no purpose to delete it. The popular culture section is relevant by taking a historical topic and demonstrating its impact and influence on contemporary culture. It certainly does not weaken the article in any way. On the contrary, it adds to its impact. Musicman88 02:08, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

None of the stuff in this section is relevant to the subject of Noah, because of this, it actually weakens the article to have a bunch of pop trivia on such a serious subject. There are times and places where such pop culture lists are appropriate and "demonstrate the impact on contemporary culture" but this one fails even that. SchmuckyTheCat 05:28, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

It is entirely relevant to the subject. Also, this information may be useful for others who are researching Noah and are looking for contemporary references. Just because you don't like it in the article does not mean that others would not benefit from the information. I disagree with your premise, but would gladly welcome some other opinions on this matter. Musicman88 12:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

You are talking about junk cast-off mentions from things like comic books, pop-fiction novels, and cartoons. We have guidelines that specifically say those kinds of irrelevant factoids should not be included. I've added many things to pop culture/trivia sections on Wikipedia, I've done re-organizations of several of them. This one crosses the line, as the reader is suddenly taken from the lofty discussion of how Noah is treated by three of the worlds major religions to his depiction in a comic book.

A suggestion for you, Musicman88, is to take this section and create a stub article called Treatment of Noah in culture. Then write some real paragraphs discussing the importance of Noah to popular culture as an intro. Add to the list; this is a 4000 year old story, don't limit yourself to the last 20 years as this cruft does. Then start integrating the disparate factoids into a cohesive article, of prose, not just a list, that supports the premise of the intro paragraph. Pop culture articles have been spun out like this and gotten recognition as Good Articles. Go for it, it's just not appropriate to dump this information into this article.

As an example, I created this, United Nations in popular culture, from a section in the UN article that now points to that article (see: United_Nations#The_UN_in_popular_culture). It's not a great example of how a good pop culture article can be written, but it's an example I know because I did it and many others have worked on it after its creation.

SchmuckyTheCat 16:29, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

PS, found you a better example than my UN article. Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc is a "featured list". SchmuckyTheCat 16:34, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Popular culture

• In the manga series D.Gray-man, living descendants of Noah assist the Millennium Earl by destroying Innocence.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• In genetic genealogy, Y-chromosomal Adam is the name given to the patrilineal human most recent common ancestor from whom all Y chromosomes in living men are descended. However, according to the story as told in Genesis, the most recent common ancestor of post-diluvial humanity would be Noah, not Adam.

Should be worked into the article

• In 1998 a made-for-TV movie entitled Noah depicted a carpenter who is visited by an angel and told to build another ark so he may survive another world flood.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• The Cradleland Chronicles trilogy's last two books focus on Noah's life, including training by God Himself in handling animals in Noah's childhood. The last book in the series takes place primarily while Noah is building the Ark, and during the Flood.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• Two books in the Doctor Dolittle series by Hugh Lofting feature Mudface, a giant turtle and acquaintance of the Doctor who lived through the Great Flood aboard Noah's Ark. The story portrays Noah as a grumpy curmudgeon and suppresses the religious aspects of the Flood, focusing mainly instead on the fates of the various animals involved in the aftermath.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• In Madeleine L'Engle's 1986 novel Many Waters Sandy and Dennys are accidentally transported to antediluvian Mesopotamia and meet Noah, Lamech, and Japheth

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• Shane Johnson's 2002 novel Ice portrays Noah in a manner consistent with the Christian tradition: as the head of a household consisting of the only kind-hearted persons on the planet, a man on a mission from God, and a leader who sometimes had to make hard, not-quite-pleasant decisions. In one memorable scene, Noah--or a simulacrum of him--orders a man left behind, not because he didn't deserve to be taken aboard the Ark, but because God's orders were that only eight people--Noah, his wife, his three sons, and their wives--board the Ark.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• American composer and recording artist Daniel Decker has achieved critical acclaim for his song “Noah’s Prayer” , which is a collaboration with Armenian composer Ara Gevorgian. "Noah's Prayer" chronicles Noah’s journey on the ark to Mount Ararat. In the shadow of Ararat, the song was debuted in 2002 in Sardarpat, Armenia to celebrate Armenian Independence day. In attendance were Armenian President Robert Kocharian, His Holiness Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians (head of the Armenian Apostolic Church), as well as ambassadors from countries around the world. The concert, which was broadcast live on Armenian television, and via satellite to over 30 nations, has catapulted Decker to celebrity status in Armenia. "Noah's Prayer" is featured on the recording "My Offering" by Daniel Decker.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• Stephen Schwartz's musical Children of Eden's second act focused on the story of Noah and his family, but used artistic license to add onto the story.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• Blameless in Abaddon by James Morrow presents a Noah (inside the "sensorium" of God himself) who despairs of the task that was put before him, making note of the fact that his ark has no rudder (as per specifications for construction received from God), and presents the protagonist with the very axe he used to make the ark, which plays a very significant part in the closing chapters of the book.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• In Disney's Fantasia 2000, Donald Duck was asked by Noah to help him get the animals on board of the ship.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• In one episode of Pokemon, When Ash, Misty, and Brock were stranded out in the ocean, Brock told Ash about the story of Noah. So Ash took out his pokemon Pigeotto to find land.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

• In one episode of Animaniacs, Noah is portrayed by Richard Lewis and he builds the boat to put the animals on.

Nothing to do with Noah, the subject. Adds nothing to the readers knowledge of Noah. Distracts from any academic treatment of the subject.

It seems to me that these all do have something to do with Noah, with the possible exception of the very first one ("descendants of Noah"? What's so notable about that?) They are all about Noah's treatment in popular culture. There is more than enough for a subarticle, I think. ፈቃደ (ውይይት) 16:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)