Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Country of birth

For the past few days, there has been a discussion occurring at the WikiProject Football talk page regarding how to define country of birth for those born in states that no longer exist, and how to include this in infoboxes. This was kickstarted by edits by User:Maracana to articles on footballers, changing the infoboxes of footballers to change country of birth to how it was known at the time. Examples of the changes made by this user include changing Mart Poom's infobox from Estonia to Soviet Union, changing Gabriel Zakuani's from DR Congo to Zaire, and changing Luka Modrić's from Croatia to Yugoslavia. Because of this, I started the discussion linked above, though in retrospect it is something that will reasonably affect all biographies on Wikipedia, hence this page to gain wider discussion, and to prevent any future edit wars that may arise around this issue, not just on football articles, such as the edit war from 2007 on Andriy Shevchenko, discussed here, and the numerous reverts of Maracana's edits.
So far, there have been numerous points raised in the discussion:

• Early responses in the thread were agreeing with the changes made, that the infobox should state the countryofbirth as it existed at the time. Comparisons were raised to Jan Kaplický, whose infobox has always said "Prague, Czechoslovakia", and to Graeme Hick, an English cricketer who was born in Rhodesia, as stated by his infobox, though as a piped link to Zimbabwe. User:Dweller took the point to the extreme by pointing out that saying Trajan was born in Spain would be wrong, as the concept of Spain didn't exist at the time.
• Around this time, as an early consensus appeared to have been established, Number 57 pointed out that this was how he had handled the issue when working on Israeli politician articles, and then elaborating in the article's prose along the lines of "born in Tallinn, Soviet Union (today in Estonia)" for the Mart Poom example earlier. This can be compared with User:Jacklee's earlier proposal of using the form "Tallinn, Estonia, Soviet Union" in the infobox itself. I also reverted my only rv of Maracana's edits.
• Soon afterwards, User:Daemonic Kangaroo disagreed with the consensus, suggesting that Latvia didn't cease to exist while it was part of the Soviet Union, and that while someone born in Riga in the 1970s was born in the Soviet Union, they were also born in Latvia, and that it is equally correct, even, to say Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic. He also suggests we are in danger of trying to be too politically correct, while User:Woody thinks things are the other way around.
• As another possible solution to how to write countryofbirth, User:MTC suggest using "Riga, Latvia, Soviet Union", to use the above Riga example, while User:Jacklee suggests using "[[Riga]], [[Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic|Latvia]], [[Soviet Union]] (now the [[Latvia|Republic of Latvia]])" for the article, and either "Riga, Latvia" (note the piped link), or "Riga, Soviet Union" for the infobox, if space is considered an issue, with Number 57 preferring the latter for historical accuracy - that whatever it would have said on their passport should be used. Responding to one of Jacklee's points, User:Necronudist points out that long infoboxes aren't an issue, as <br> can be used, citing Aron Winter as an example.
• JHONY echoes an earlier point that reaching a consensus and including it in a policy would be good, to avoid edit wars such as the one on the Andriy Shevchenko article linked above.
• At this point, User:Oth suggests that the Occupation of Baltic States was illegal, and not generally recognised, and therefore changing country of birth to Soviet Union is "both confusing and political", and asks that if a person was born in Estonia between 1941 and 1944, would their country of birth be Reichskommissariat Ostland? Oth also admits to making a few reverts before realising the scale, similar to how I made one revert before checking contributions. Jacklee admits that the perceived legality of certain occupations and the like adds an additional complication, comparing the situation with that of Taiwan, which some countries consider part of the People's Republic of China, rather than an independent nation. He suggests that WT:WPF is probably not the best place for this discussion (which was my mistake, as the original user's edits were all to footballer articles). JHONY suggests Centralized discussion, and also points out that while changing country of birth to Soviet Union is confusing and political for some, reverting is confusing and political for others, and that controversial cases should probably be handled on an individual basis.
• User:Dkua mentions that this discussion resurfaces regularly, again pointing to the Shevchenko talk page from above, which he participated in, adding that his viewpoint is unchanged from that discussion. That it is "important to put useful and relevant information, not just stick to a legal definition", and that "for someone born in an empire it is clearly important and relevant to include the constituent country/nation/republic rather than the empire", particularly if a person's legacy is associated with the constituent entity rather than the empire. Subsequent discussion is largely on how we determine what is useful and relevant to the reader, the definition of empire and the like. It can be found at WT:WPF#Defining country of birth, from Dkua's first post onwards, but is possibly a bit too tangential and hard to summarise here.
• Jacklee agree's with JHONY's earlier point about creating a Centralized discussion page, I agree, and Jacklee suggests I start a page. I admit I'm not always the best person when it comes to summarising something concisely (probably self-apparent by this point), but I would go ahead if noone else volunteered, as I felt it was important to have a wider audience on the issue. JHONY suggests that I, or someone else who can't be accused of having a conflict of interest, should do it.
• User:Martintg suggests that a comparison can be made with David Beckham, who we say was born in "London, England", rather than "London, European Union", or "London, United Kingdom". He contends that for the Mart Poom example, "Tallin Estonia" would suffice, as Soviet Union is too large like the EU, and Estonian SSR is too formal, like the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. JHONY suggests this is a false analogy, as England, Scotland, Wales e.t.c are considered independent nations in football, with their own national teams and national leagues (for those not familiar with this, see Football in the United Kingdom). He suggests that on the contrary, the best Estonian footballers played for the Soviet Union national team, and that the best Estonian teams competed in the Soviet League System. Martintg contends that countryofbirth refers to the geographic location, rather than the political entity, and therefore it would be clearer for our readers if we use the current name of a location, rather than the name of a former political entity. JHONY suggests the wording should be along the lines of "Dvirkivschyna, present Ukraine", rather than just "Dvirkivschyna, Ukraine". Going back to an earlier example, Peanut4 says that Gabriel Zakuani was born in Kinshasa, and less specifically was born in Zaire, not in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, so his place of birth should be Kinshasa, Zaire.
• JHONY points to Centralized discussion again, but Martintg suggests that as this is a football issue, it should be kept here. JHONY says it is not directly related to football, and and Peanut4 agrees, citing his Graeme Hick example from the top of the discussion.
• Martintg suggests that if we are going to put someone's place of birth as "Kiev, Soviet Union", then we must be consistent and use "London, European Union". User:PeeJay2K3 states that this makes no sense, as the Soviet Union was a recognised country, while the European Union is not.

Much of the discussion from this point on is retreading old ground I think, and if required can always be found on the original talk page linked above. I fear I'm already on the wrong side of the concise/comprehensive line, so I'll leave it at this.
I think to summarise, we need to reach a consensus on how to write the place of birth for people (not just footballers) who were born in places that no longer exist, or go by a new name, e.t.c. Once a consensus is reached, it would probably be a plan to put it in policy somewhere, to link to in future discussions on the issue, or if there are edit wars or the like.
To the users that took part in that original discussion, if I've misrepresented your views or left out important ones, feel free to say so below. I have a slight suspicion that I've not done this "right", as well. I found Wikipedia:Centralized discussion#Usage rather confusing, and I'm not familiar with this process, so apologies again if I've done everything wrong. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 07:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

• Is it too simplistic to suggest that we simply say that the individual was born in Kinshasa, or Kiev, or London, and let the reader who is interested in further detail or uncertain as to where it is follow the link? Kevin McE (talk) 21:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Nationality is a quite important trait, so I wouldn't like it left out of a bio's introduction. пﮟოьεԻ 57 21:41, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
    • We can introduce "citizenship"("nationality") in the infobox and then remove country of birth at all in controversial cases. I would support that.  Jhony   22:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
      • I don't agree with that. The only people making it a controversial issue are POV pushers who want to rewrite history. If someone was born in Baku in 1960, they were born in the Soviet Union, like it or not. Likewise, someone born in Bulawayo in 1955 was born in Southern Rhodesia. пﮟოьεԻ 57 23:10, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
        • With regard to countries that were former Soviet Republics, why not just (for example) born in Riga, Latvia where Latvia is a wikilink to Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic as that would then cover all those interested to find out the historical context of the players country of birth as it would lead them to the specific Soviet Republic, and as has been said Latvia and all the other countries within the Soviet Union did not cease to exist.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 00:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
          • To Number57: I just have tried to assume good faith. Surely I will support wording like Riga, Soviet Union too.  Jhony   00:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
• Piping as in [[Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic|Latvia]] is by far the best solution. AnteaterZot (talk) 00:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I've just noticed that articles about American footballers have the following conventions for country of birth: cityofbirth = [[City name]], [[State name]] | countryofbirth = [[United States]]. For example, North Brunswick, NJ, U.S. (Tim Howard). So shouldn't we stick to Riga, Latvia, USSR?  Jhony   02:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
    • That's the one, AnteaterZot, "piping" is what I meant (sorry I did't know the term), that though would surely cover everything as it shows they were born in the Latvian Soviet Socialist Republic and anyone who wishes to check further can do so.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 04:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Most western countries never recognised the incorporation of Latvia or Estonia into the Soviet Union and Soviet rule was seen as illegal. The pre-war states continued to exist de-jure, hence strictly speaking players like Poom were born in the Republic of Estonia, not the illegal puppet state of the Estonian SSR. Martintg (talk) 04:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Putting the issue of illegality to one side, the Estonian and Latvian SSR were political entities, while Estonia and Latvia are nations. When we talk of French players, do we say players born before 1958 are born in the French Fourth Republic and those born after 1958 are born in the French Fifth Republic? No, we simply say they were born in France. So in the same way we should say Latvian/Estonian players were born in Latvia or Estonia without any piping. Martintg (talk) 05:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
        • Regardless, they had Soviet citizenship. Why are some editors so keen to cover up the fact that people were born in the USSR? пﮟოьεԻ 57 08:22, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
          • Equally some french players had citizenship of the French Fourth Republic. Why are some editors intent on highlighting the fact that some players were born in a defunct totalitarian regime? Martintg (talk) 09:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
            • Completely different situations. The country was France and still is France. The Soviet Union was a country but doesn't exist anymore. The fact that it was a totalitarian regime is irrelevant. Do we hide the fact that people born in Pyongyang are from North Korea? пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
              • Estonia is still Estonia, just because the Soviet Union set up an illegal puppet state on the territory of Estonia, does not mean Estonian citizenry ceased to exist. The Soviets may have attempted to impose Soviet citizenship, but also citizenship of the de jure Estonian state continued to exist. Martintg (talk) 09:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
                • So did no-one recognise Soviet passports held by people from Tallinn, Riga etc? пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:44, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
                  • Most did, but most also recognized the passports issued by the existing foreign legations of the de-jure states. Martintg (talk) 19:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
                    • It is unfortunate that people think that we need to refight the battles over the Cold War annexation of the Baltic States here. Why not include a link on every Lithuanian footballer's page about how huge numbers of ethnic Lithuanians enthusiastically participated in killing their Jewish neighbors in WWII? AnteaterZot (talk) 20:06, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
• Firstly I would say this just illustrates the reasons why infoboxes should be kept to a minimum - they always encourage inaccurate oversimplification. In text one can say "Riga, Latvia (then part of the Soviet Union..." or some such formula. Secondly, before drafting new rules, the complexities of pre-national periods need to be considered. Germany and Italy were not states until the late 1800s. Other countries, like Lorraine and Flanders were nations and states but stopped being so hundreds of years ago. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I agree. Wales, Scotland and England ceased to exist as independent states long ago, but in the context of sport they continue to be noted as "country of birth". The histories of all countries are too varied and complex to enable some general "one-size-fits-all" rule. We must look at each on a case by case basis. Martintg (talk) 19:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

we should also not necessarily make general rules based on the particular situation of the baltic republics, any more than on the basis of PRC and Taiwan. There should be some way of handling this on a basis that does not involve resolving the political status of the area at the time. When we need simple wording as in an infobox, I think the best rule in general for contemporary figures is to use the nationality they ascribe to themselves, and to historical figures, the nationality used at the time they were active, and explain more fully in the text. The main principal is not to waste time in reverting established articles. DGG (talk) 03:44, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• We must take particular care where the place has changed names and/or hands since the birth. Trajan is a bit of an extreme, but take George Habash, rightfully describing his place of birth as Lydda, British Mandate of Palestine, rather than Lod, Israel; there have been lots of places where borders have shifted, states coalesced or collapsed, but we should record the state of affairs at the time of the event (here a birth), so Jesus was born in Judea, not in the West Bank; Imanuel Kant born at Königsberg, Kingdom of Prussia, not Kaliningrad, Russian Federation, etc. I think due to piped links, if anyone really followed to find out about the city where someone was from, they'd realize that the long dead would hardly recognize the place. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:55, 7 February 2008 (UTC)