Talk:David Miscavige

New source of info to add to article

Cook, John (March 17, 2008). "Scientology - Cult Friction: After an embarrassing string of high-profile defection and leaked videos, Scientology is under attack from a faceless cabal of online activists. Has America's most controversial religion finally met its match?". Radar Online. Radar Magazine. Retrieved 2008-03-20. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

See in particular page 3 of 4. Cirt (talk) 11:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Primary sources

It would be best to avoid usage of primary sources and self-referential sources, in describing the history of an organization specifically from those sources. Better to rely on secondary, WP:RS/WP:V sources. Cirt (talk) 21:05, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

First Celebrity Defector Reveals Church Secrets

• Ortega, Tony (April 8, 2008). "Scientology's First Celebrity Defector Reveals Church Secrets: 'I was Miscavige's favorite boy,' says veteran TV actor Jason Beghe". Village Voice. www.villagevoice.com. Retrieved 2008-04-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Friedman, Roger (April 16, 2008). "Actor: Scientology Is 'Brainwashing'". FOX News. www.foxnews.com. Retrieved 2008-04-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

Good sources for some interesting info on David Miscavige, as revealed by celebrity actor and (former) Scientologist, Jason Beghe. Cirt (talk) 08:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Source, interview discussion about David Miscavige

• Olsen, Dawn. "Church of Scientology, David Miscavige, Marc Headley, Tom Cruise". BlogTalkRadio. www.blogtalkradio.com. Retrieved 2008-04-26.

Haven't had a chance to check this out yet, could be interesting. Cirt (talk) 09:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

• Sorry, not an adequate source by a long shot for an accusation of that nature in a WP:BLP article. Please let's not try to have the tail wag the dog. --Justallofthem (talk) 05:42, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
  • This was a senior official within the organization, talking on record about his experiences in recorded audio. Doesn't get more of an adequate source than that, IMO. Would be interesting to see what others think though. Cirt (talk) 11:28, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Request for Comment

Template:RFCbio Is an audio interview hosted on BlogTalkRadio a sufficient source for controversial claims made about the subject of this article? 11:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Cirt

• Olsen, Dawn. "Church of Scientology, David Miscavige, Marc Headley, Tom Cruise". BlogTalkRadio. www.blogtalkradio.com. Retrieved 2008-08-30.

Since the above interview is not simply text but an actual recorded audio file with the interviewee, this satisfies WP:V and should be able to be used as a source in the article. I am interested to hear comments from others on this and so opening it up to the community for discussion. Cirt (talk) 11:51, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Justallofthem

• What we have here is a non-notable person making claims to a blogger. No-one is arguing that the person did not make the claims. That is irrelevant. The claims do not go in here until they have appeared in reliable secondary sources. It does not matter if the claims are made in blog "radio" or blog "print" - either way, not a reliable source and far far below the threshold for including such claims of physical abuse in a WP:BLP article. --Justallofthem (talk) 21:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

What Is BlogTalkRadio?

"BlogTalkRadio is the social radio network that allows users to connect quickly and directly with their audience. Using an ordinary telephone and computer hosts can create free, live, call-in talk shows with unlimited participants that are automatically archived and made available as podcasts. No software download is required. Listeners can subscribe to shows via RSS into iTunes and other feed readers. Our network has produced tens of thousands of episodes since it launched in August of 2006."[1]

In other words, this is about as much a discerning "reliable source" as YouTube or MySpace. --Justallofthem (talk) 02:17, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

That is quite a stretch to equate blogtalkradio with YouTube or MySpace, the former being a community of media contributions and the latter being nothing more than a social networking website. I cannot blame Justallofthem/Justanother for not knowing this living in an environment where information is highly controlled with restrictions and duress.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 22:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Your silly personal slur notwithstanding, how about you do a bit of research. You might see this:

"Our streaming and archived shows are produced by anyone that wants to be an internet radio host." (emphasis added)

Anyone, repeat, anyone. Now how does that make BTR more of a reliable source than YouTube?? --Justallofthem (talk) 00:00, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Not silly and not a slur, Justanother/Justallofthem. You seem to a have fixed view on any of my statements. I wonder why.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I think BlogTalkRadio falls under WP:SPS. This is just as reliable a source as 'self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, knols, forum postings, and similar sources' Felixmeister (talk) 05:07, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough. Good call. --Justallofthem (talk) 13:02, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

You say that because it conforms with your POV. I am very familiar with talk radio and there is no way ANY interviewer can control the statements of those who are interviewed. The hosts of Blogtalkradio programs do not have commercial interests sponsoring them. Anyone person with some interview and broadcast skills can do a talk radio program. It is naive to believe otherwise. --Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Fahrenheit451

• It is irrelevant that Headley is non-notable as we are not discussing an article about him.

Blogtalkradio is just a name, perhaps a misnomer, but it is not a weblog, or blog for short. It is a reliable source. The interview meets verifiability and it like a television interview or newspaper article. It is unfortunate that corporate scientology wants to conceal David Miscavige's criminal actions and influence Wikipedia in an attempt to do so.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• There is an important difference and that difference speaks to why this is not acceptable in this project: Anyone can stand on a street corner and say anything about anyone. That such non-notable and non-reliable material is then "published" in a blog makes the material neither notable nor reliable. What make a reliable source "reliable" is that they fact-check their material or put themselves at substantial legal risk; they do not publish unsupported allegations of this sort. What is also unfortunate is that experienced editors that should know better are willing, nay eager, to throw out the basic protection of Wikipedia that careful sourcing on WP:BLP articles provides. Makes me wonder where their priorities lie. --Justallofthem (talk) 05:39, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Please remember to WP:AGF Felixmeister (talk) 22:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• I think this comes down to whether "Glosslip.com"--an online "celebrity gossip" site--satisfies the Reliable Source requirements, including the slightly stricter interpretation of those requirements called for w/r/t potentially inflammatory claims in bios of the living. If Glosslip is judged a "questionable" source, it can't be used. Unless there's a good case that Glosslip meets the journalistic standards for reliability--comparable to "mainstream" TV stations or newspapers--I'd say it belongs in the questionable category in this context, and shouldn't be cited. --BTfromLA (talk) 07:15, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Please keep things civil, chaps. 'Unspoken' accusations are still accusations. For what it's worth, I think we shouldn't be making this claim. However, perhaps a line that 'Critics have accused him of unscrupulous activites, and in some cases physical assault, however no-one has pressed charges, and the claims remain unproven'. Perhaps? And no offence, Justallofthem, but you're bound to oppose any inclusion of this site - the last thing you want is your organisation's leader being accused of things! Chase me ladies, I'm the Cavalry (talk) 20:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No offense taken. However, inclusion of unsupported claims by a non-notable individual and reported only in blog are far from the standard of inclusion required of any article here, let alone BLP. I could really care less what goes in the articles here provided that it is consistent with reliable sourcing and complies with our policies. This does not and that is my only point. --Justallofthem (talk) 02:07, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Good Suggestion Mr RN, and a I agree, until this is in newspapers etc it shouldn't be included 'verbatim', but given the ammount of first hand accounts your suggested line makes a lot of sense. Felixmeister (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

• It doesn't seem that this interview could be considered a reliable source for information about third parties such as Miscavige. It looks like BlogTalkRadio does not exercise editorial control over the podcast that hosted this interview, so just being on BTR cannot make a program a reliable source. Furthermore, it does not appear that the host is generally known as a reliable journalist (she may in fact be one, but I don't know how that could be established), nor has the interviewee been established as a reliable source on the topic of Miscavige. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 09:33, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

• There is no way "editorial control" can be exercised over a person being interviewed. That person makes statements on record. That is true with ANY interview of ANY kind, ANY where. Notability has NOTHING to do with the credibility of a person being interviewed. Statements do not necessarily have to be "supported" by police reports or civil suits. A court of law or a jounalist cares not if a person is notable or not. Supporting evidence does lend greater credibility to statements, but in any interview, a person statements are just that. Editorial control is not feasible.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 00:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Recap

It has been over a week since I started this RFC. (7) users have commented, and it appears that consensus is leaning towards not utilizing the above-listed source as a reference in this article, or either treating it as a WP:SPS, or perhaps an inclusion in the external links section. What do others think? Cirt (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Hostages?

I read that this guy has the board of Scientology as hostages at some compound, what's the story behind that and why is it all over news websites but not on his page on Wiki? I'd say it's notable? And I'd like to know more. 122.107.56.47 (talk) 03:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh? Which news websites? If they are reliable sources they could be used as cites. Without cites, editors can't just drop in unreferenced text, especially in biographies of living persons. AndroidCat (talk) 06:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Until a court of law finds Miscavige guilty of this, I would be highly hesitant to put anything that could be interpreted as libelous in a biography. Charges of kidnapping would definitely count, and should definitely not be in this article. --GoodDamon 16:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Until we can see what these "news websites" are, and exactly what they say, it's all pretty moot. AndroidCat (talk) 18:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)