Talk:Homeopathy

Please read before starting First of all, welcome to Wikipedia's homeopathy article. This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Wikipedia and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. A common objection made by newly arriving editors is that this article presents homeopathy from a non-neutral point of view, and that the extensive criticism of homeopathy violates Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Pseudoscience NPOV: Undue weight NPOV: Making necessary assumptions NPOV: Giving "equal validity" The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the Content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Some common points of argument are addressed at Wikipedia's Homeopathy FAQ. Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Wikipedia's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of homeopathy. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of homeopathy or promote homeopathy please do so at google groups or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.

neutrality of tone

mention of scientific opinion could be much more concise, limited to a few well-phrased sentences.

bias is not merely a matter of whether statements can be backed with references - it is also a question of tone, rhetorical structure, and emphasis.

--Jethrobrice (talk) 16:28, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, and i have made the necesary modificaitons to the text to reflect the consensus that we and I have reached. Smith Jones (talk) 17:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

For the future, Smith Jones, you would be well-advised not to claim a 'consensus' has been established based on your agreement with one other editor's half-hour-old comment. That said, the very minor changes that you've made under the banner of that 'consensus' seems innocuous: [1]. ('Contend' and 'maintain' both implicitly acknowledge that homeopathic principles are not universally accepted.)

I hope that you don't choose to strip out the detailed scientific discussion of homeopathy from the article as Jethrobrice suggests. There is ample discussion – dare I say 'consensus'? – in the archives of this talk page to see that such a change is unsupportable. Homeopathy wishes to be recognized as a legitimate science and genuine branch of medicine—it is both fair and appropriate that Wikipedia include a reasonable discussion about what science medicine have to say of homeopathy. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:38, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with TenOfAllTrades, and would refer the reader to my answer in the thread above. Verbal chat 17:46, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey hold on ther e Sindney. I never asaid that I wanted to strip off the scienfitific discussion; I agre that it should remian in place as an integral part of the Homoapthy article. I only said that the word "contend" was used too often. I counted SEVEN uses in the lead and the opening paragrapsh alone, and I find that it WP:MOS was getting repetitive. I changed it to maintain not to alter the meaning (I know that the mean rouglhyl the same thing) but to create variety and to make this article more interesting to read.

The way it was was good, and I am not criticizing all of the hard work that people who hav eplaced into this article have done, but that in our effort to avoid any even minor disagreement we have made this article a bit dry and boring to read. By creating verbal variety, it might be making this article a little bit more engaging and less repetitive.

If you want to revert my edit and vangate our consensus, then go ahead; I will not object or change it bakc. I was only attempting to make a few cosmetic changes and I am sorry if i cause d offense. Smith Jones (talk) 18:04, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Er, 'vangate'? In any event, you seemed to be agreeing with Jethrobrice's statements in two separate sections on this talk page (albeit with the same comment in both). This thread deals with a proposal to reduce the section on scientific consensus to "a few well-phrased sentences"; the thread above this one deals with a change of word (from 'contend' to 'maintain'). Did you inadvertently copy your comment into both sections? That may be where the confusion arises.... TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:12, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

that is improbable but I will conceed that it might have occured in the fashion that you described. if the story that you are telling me turns out to be true, I will of course oppose any such move. Paring down the scientific consensus serves only to create bias and will delegitimize homepathy by making it seem as if scientific controversy does not exceed regarding this subject.

I oppose any such manoevers on the part of any article editor since all it does is reduce the weight that scientific discussion re: Homeopathy exists on the scientific literature, wihch is a debate that we have gone through literally thousands of times if you will look at this archive. This seems obvious and I am surprised that i have to go through this twice.

In regards to consensus; i was not aware that it was okay to break consensus and make sweeping edits like the one being proposed. I have read all the rules but it doesnt work. Smith Jones (talk) 18:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(← unindenting) Smith Jones, I don't think I understand what you're saying. If you scroll up to the top of this section (just under where it says neutrality of tone) you'll see a comment by Jethrobrice where he says that discussion of science in relation to homeopathy should be pared down to "a few well-phrased sentences".

Immediately below that, you'll find the comment that you wrote and signed (diff) where you apparently agreed with Jethrobrice's position, and you indicated an intention to go ahead an edit the article based on the two-person 'consensus' so established.

It seems from your more recent remarks here that you don't agree with that comment by Jethrobrice, and that you only inadvertently made your comment here in this thread. (Either way, you should be more cautious in claiming a 'consensus' in this way—two people and a half-hour of discussion don't generally serve to establish a consensus, particularly on a high-traffic, high-controversy article.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict with ToAT) Smith Jones, I think you've got a bit muddled here. Maybe you want to strike out your first comment in this section if you disagree now with it, and added it by accident. I also don't follow your logic above, but I think I agree with you. Obviously, changing the article against consensus isn't allowed except (one hopes) in extreme cases. Per my comment in the thread above, I'm against any removal of the scientific analysis without good reason. "Neutrality of tone" seems to be a new method to try to change the balance to favour a particular bias, neutral or not. Verbal chat 18:33, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe youre right. I will WP:AGF and trust your judgment re: this matter, but personally I dont feel that this article reamins as volatile and dangerous as it once was, and the fact of the matter is that the other edit that I made was only an extremely minor comsetic edit that I am not that attached to you said it was. You are right that I might have misposted the comment twice, in that case you can disregard this descussion and I will go back and strike through the inappropriately placed comment. I DO NOT agree with Jechothmann's second comment, only his first on re: contend v. maintain. That are all. Smith Jones (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2008 (UTC) (fixed by Verbal chat)

• I agree with Jethrobrice's point which has been also been made previously by many other editors. The article still has a tendenditious tone which is inappropriate here and is not NPOV. I have reverted removal of the POV tag accordingly. Colonel Warden (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Start a new section with documenting your concerns, with specificity. The issues brought up here have not reached a consensus. I will ask you to revert he placing of the tag until you have done so. Please place any new comments in a new topic as this one has strayed very far off topic. Note that disruption includes the constant tagging of articles and stonewalling of progress. There has been plenty of time to develop points, and since the article is now stable the tag should be removed unless you or others give reasons, with specificity, why it should remain. Otherwise the points can never be addressed. Verbal chat 14:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• We had at least one previous section of this sort which has scrolled off into the archives without being resolved. Now we have another section here of a similar sort. I have briefly reviewed the article to see if adequate improvements have been made and they have not. Since multiple editors object to the article's tone, the tag stays until resolved. I shall perhaps add further tags to indicate specific areas of concern but dislike excessive tagging. More anon. Colonel Warden (talk) 14:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Homeopathy article in the Journal of Head Trauma Rehabilitation

Veterans with mild traumatic brain injury may benefit from homeopathy per the article in the Journal of Head Trauma Rehabilitation, December 1999, page 521, on the randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled NIH Pilot study performed at Spaulding Rehabilitation Hospital in Boston.

Scientific explanations may relate to the non-linear effects being discovered and now labeled "low-dose toxicity". Previously, scientists believed that effects decreased as concentrations decline, but that is no longer the case. A recent symposium recently took place featuring several eminent scientists at Villanova Law School, Villanova, Pennsylvania due to the emerging legal implications of this discovery.

Another recent developement is the discovery of stable water clusters at room temperature and normal pressure referenced in Lo et al, Modern Physics Letters B, 10, 909 (1996) and in paperback as "Proceedings of the First International Symposium on Physical, Chemical and Biological Properties of Stable Water [Ie trademark] Clusters", editors S.Y.Lo & B. Bonivida, 1997, World Scientific. These clusters are being investigated as of 1997 for industrial applications. Their preparation parallels the discovery by Dr. Samuel Hahnemann of the special effects of low doses formed through serial dilutions with intervening succussion.Aude4Sapere (talk) 00:39, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

What part of "pilot study" are you not familiar with? The rest is just "this science sounds a little bit like homeopathy - let's run with it." - much like all homeopathy apologetics. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 01:09, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia publishes established science. There was a Lancet review on 2005 that discounted the effects of homeopathy. If this study was really relevant and if it proved any effect, it would have been noted at that review. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:11, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Something that was published in 1996 hardly counts as a "recent development". Dr. Lo seems to have been developing a "quantum theory of acupuncture", BTW. Brunton (talk) 13:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

more scientific approach

I would like to suggest that a more scientific approach is used for this topic.

This subject is so contenscious with so much at stake, including the credibility, the integrity and livelihoods of individuals and companies on both sides of the spectrum.

The subject matter should first be written by experts in that field.

It can then be open to peer review on the actual science behind the subject matter. This is the methodology that all scientific papers go through in academia, so why not use the same methodology here?

The current page is so obviously written by an unqualified experts attempting to write about subject matter which they have little or no knowledge about or drawing on some articles read and disputed papers which are in themselves questionable. Frictionfree (talk) 10:18, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I think that you are looking for Citizendium, the wiki where experts are given more rank that non-expert editors. This is wikipedia, the encyclopedia that anyone can edit (third pillar). You can look at the homeopathy article on Citizendium.

If you want to discuss the general issue about experts editing wikipedia, or about wikipedia articles should be written mostly or only by experts, then please don't use this talk page, as article talk pages are for discussing changes to the articles. Use instead Raymond's page on expert withdrawal, the talk page of Wikipedia:Expert retention, or Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) --Enric Naval (talk) 13:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

If you could tell us which parts you have problems with specifically, and why, maybe we could address those concerns. Verbal chat 14:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

The problem with having the article written by "experts in the field" rather than, as you describe them "unqualified experts" is that the only people likely to have actual qualifications in homoeopathy are practitioners, who are obviously going to have a conflict of interest. There are plenty of editors here who, while they lack formal qualifications in the subject, are quite capable of evaluating the evidence for the efficacy of homoeopathy. Many of them have also read extensively about homoeopathy. It is not necessary, for example, to have detailed knowledge of the homoeopathic materia medica to write an article of this type.

Looking at the Citizendum page, which is written by "experts in the field", I only managed to get as far as the first sentence of the introduction before spotting an inaccuracy: "Homeopathic medicines treat an illness with an infinitesimally small dose of a substance that, at larger doses, can cause symptoms that are like those of the illness". This ignores the fact that provings are in fact carried out using potentised remedies, not "larger doses", and usually at the 30C potency (as recommended by Hahnemann himself in The Organon - see § 128, 5th and 6th eds.), which has no molecules from the mother tincture present. Brunton (talk) 15:29, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, User:DanaUllman is an editor there. It shows some of the problems with Citizedium. Jumping through those hoops is something that people with an axe to grind will waste their time on. Let's stick to detailing and fixing any specific problems with this article. Verbal chat 20:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Important study missing?

I wonder why there is no mention in the article to the well documented Madeleine Ennis' study about water memory and its possible relation with homeopathy. Guillep2k (talk) 17:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

See the water memory page, and the page on Dana Ullman. If you think it should be included, please give a reason. Thanks. Verbal chat 17:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

NPOV tag

As most issues have been addressed or reached stability, I think it is time to remove the neutrality tag. If anyone has objections please document them briefly but with specificity below, so that they can be dealt with. Permanent tagging of the article is not an option. Verbal chat 14:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

We already have a section above and have had sections before. Proliferation of such sections dilutes the criticism rather than concentrating it and so is not helpful. I might comb the archives and assemble all the unresolved issues here but this will take time. Colonel Warden (talk) 15:03, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Other sections have had large discussions and changes were made to the article in response. Unless there are new issues, or issues you'd like to bring up again, then I would think this matter is closed. Why not remove the tag, and bring one issue at a time as you find it. We can then ask for input on various noticeboards/projects to try and get each one dealt with. I want to move the article forward, not get it stuck in NPOV-tagged hell. For example, how we dealt with the Naturopathy split and removal - one topic given a brief bit of focus and quickly resolved to the agreement of all (I think!). Verbal chat 15:14, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

The matter is not closed and the long history of this article indicates that it is unlikely to be resolved easily. See WP:EDCO for a related proposal to resolve protracted disputes of this sort. Colonel Warden (talk) 15:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

No reason not to try. So if you don't mind I'll start the ball rolling in a moment, after checking something. Verbal chat 15:39, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Quackery in the lead

Several people, mostly homeopaths, have commented that they don't like the word quackery appearing in the lead. Now I agree that it should be included in the article, as it's verifiable, a common opinion, and from a reliable source. However, for the lead I feel that the term pseudoscience is enough. I would suggest keeping the sentence in the lead up to the semicolon (replaced with a full stop), and integrating the remainder into the body of the article. Perhaps into the "Research on medical effectiveness" section or the 20th century section. This is something I've suggested before but which has been overtaken (usually) by discussions as to whether homeopathy works, so please lets keep his on topic: quackery removed from the lead, put somewhere else. Verbal chat 15:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Quackery means charlatanism etc. as opposed to well meaning but (in all probability) misguided practices in the name of medicine. Both fall under the topic of the article, but to get into that distinction so high up seems less than ideal. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 16:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Wikipedia also defines quackery as "unscientific medical practices," according to the lead in Quackery. Hiding this significant point down the page because some people don't like it -- some with vested interests -- would not be in keeping with policy which says the lead is "..... a short, independent summary of the important aspects of the article's topic." An important aspect of homeopathy is that it is widely considered to be quackery. Even Verbal, who started this section, says homeopathy being quackery is "verifiable, a common opinion, and from a reliable source". Consider the following. Would you drop the words "would violate the first and/or second laws of thermodynamics" from the lead of Water-fuelled car, or (it) "is a scientifically refuted speculation" from the lead of Water memory, or (it) "directly contradicts many principles of modern physics, chemistry, and biology" from the lead of Therapeutic touch ? . Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 01:57, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

My point isn't to hide it, but currently quackery isn't mentioned elsewhere in the article - I should have said this in my summary above. Pseudoscience seems to be enough of a summary for the lead. I wouldn't support dropping those terms from the other articles. Establishing consensus on whether it should be in the lead or "just" the article body is the goal here. Maybe this should be an RFC. Verbal chat 06:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

You seem intent on trying to bypass Wikipedia policy. You give two reasons, because homeopaths don't like an accurate description appearing in the lead, and you think the word pseudoscience seems to be enough of a summary. You totally ignored what I just wrote above, that one Wikipedia definition of quackery is "unscientific medical practices." By substituting pseudoscience for quackery the article would no longer be informing readers that homeopathy is an unscientific medical practice. Censorship. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 09:42, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I think there is a bit of confusion here - I've tried to explain myself on your talk page. I really do not condone censorship in any form. Verbal chat 10:25, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The term unscientific is more NPOV than either pseudoscience or quackery since it is less pejorative while communicating the point. See WP:AVOID: Such terms often convey to readers an implied viewpoint—that of the "outsider looking in and labelling as they see it". The fact that a term is accepted "outside" but not "inside" is a good indicator that it is pejorative or inflammatory in nature.. Colonel Warden (talk) 09:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Removing the term pseudoscience is not the topic of this section, and consensus on pseudoscience appearing in the lead has been clearly established and is in line with wikipedia policies as mentioned above by Kaiwhakahaere. Verbal chat 10:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

The general problem here is the use of polemical language. This is not good NPOV style. User:Kaiwhakahaere wishes to communicate that homeopathy is thought to be an unscientific medical practice. I find these words to be acceptable and preferable to other terms which are known to be pejorative. We should not seek to use derogatory language when more NPOV alternatives are available - this is the clear guidance of WP:AVOID. Colonel Warden (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

If they article said "homeopathy is quackery", then you would be correct. However, the article words it as "...regarded as..." which is perfectly true and neutral, with appropriate cites to reference which demonstrably regard homeopathy as such. Jefffire (talk) 12:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jefffire - there is nothing wrong (against policy) with any of these terms appearing in the lead. Pseudoscience should definitely stay. Verbal chat 12:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

(Undent)As an outsider just watching, my opinion from reading the lead is that it is appropriate in the lead for both terms to be there as written. I do think that the terms should be followed up into the main article. This is just an outsiders opinion of the comments being made. --CrohnieGal^Talk 12:40, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with saying "pseudoscience or quackery" in the lead as long as both terms are duly referenced. This doesn't prejudice whether most practicioners are fraudulent or just ignorant (as in Hanlon's razor), it simply means that the treatments have no verifiable effect. --dab (𒁳) 13:09, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I support Verbal's suggestion to chop the sentence at the semicolon. Besides the tendentiousness of "quackery", there is another issue, the phrase "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst". Homeopathy is placebo therapy; how could it be worse? Looie496 (talk) 16:49, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

There are some homeopaths who encourage their patients to avoid evidence-based treatments in favor of their homeopathic treatments. This is worse than placebo therapy in some ways. At least, that's what I gather from the source. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:52, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I can think of quite a few who are anti-vaccination, for example. Brunton (talk) 17:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Looie, according to your logic, there is no quackery, since all quackery (provided it doesn't outright poison you) will qualify as "placebo therapy" automatically. I really don't see the problem. Yes, "quackery" is "tendentious" -- but since it happens to be the actual tendency of academic mainstream, Wikipedia is positively required to follow suit. Failure to be tendentious in cases such as this would in fact violate the NPOV policy. --dab (𒁳) 09:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

So would someone like to add the quackery term and references to a suitable place in the text, as I don't want to edit regarding this as the originator of the thread. Note: I think at the current time that it should be mentioned in the body, and teh lead left as it is until further input is made for a good consensus. Verbal chat 09:41, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Presumably it should go near the start of the "Medical and scientific analysis" section. Brunton (talk) 15:55, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Please go ahead. Verbal chat 09:44, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've added it (basically just copied and pasted from the lead - references may need tidying up). Now that it's included in the body of the article, perhaps it would be appropriate to remove the passage "or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst."" from the lead? Brunton (talk) 12:09, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks. Verbal chat 14:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I may be ariving late for the dance, but can not help addding my two cents. In the absence of notable, verifiable sources stating that "homeopathy is quackery", or "homeopathy is pseudoscience", then the article would have to avoid these pejoritive terms and go with more neutral terminology to describe the lack of scientific validation. If notable, verifiable sources that use pejoritive language are to be used, the authorship of these sources should always be included in the main text of the article to avoid the appearance that the article itself if calling homeopathy "quackery" or pseudoscience". Writing that "homeopathy has been labeled as pseudoscience" is not the best form. It is better to write : "Acording to Dr So-and-so of the instituite of such-and-such, homeopathy is a pseudoscience". This accomplishes three things: it lets Dr So-and-so take the fall for using the pejorative term. It also lets the reader of the article judge the notability for herself. Finally, it also makes it clear that this is the opinion or assesment of Dr So-and-so and maintains neutrality in the article itself.

Verbal is accurately trying to portray the magnitude of the opposition to homeopathy. If there are notables out there who say that 'homeopathy is unimpresive or unscientific' then that is one thing. If there are notables out there who say that 'homeopathy is outrageous, dangerous quackery' then the article needs to share that with the reader. The facts are that homeopathy has been met with such a hostile tone. It is the duty of the article to report this hostile tone in a neutral way. The most neutral way to do this is to clearly attribute such comments to their original authors. Naturstud (talk) 17:38, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

:Naturstud has a good point. Phrasing and wording can be tricky, but it can be done. Rather than using perjorative terms (unless there are good papers to support their use and the context is similar) then wording such as 'homeopathy currently does not enjoy the support of mainstream science or medicine' or 'Homeopathy is still considered experimental with a lack of evidence to support it's efficacy in treating X or Y". If there's studies investigating it then the end could suggest "studies are ongoing to determine the benefits, if any, of X for Y". Soyuz113 (talk) 18:18, 6 September 2008 (UTC) ^{(Edits of indef blocked user stricken.)}

User:Soyuz113 above is a probable sock of indef-blocked User:CorticoSpinal, see sockpuppet case --Enric Naval (talk) 17:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Soyuz113 has "been blocked indefinitely from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for sockpuppetry, edit warring, disruption and block evasion." I have stricken his remarks, as striking or removal is customary in such situations. -- Fyslee / talk 06:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not make future predictions, per WP:CRYSTAL. Try some other formulation. BTW, it's spelled p-e-j-o-r-a-t-i-v-e. Skinwalker (talk) 19:17, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The article says that homoeopathy is regarded as pseudoscience or quackery, and cites RS supporting that. Brunton (talk) 00:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

• Actually my point was that it is not enough for the article to vaguely assert that "homeopathy is regarded as quackery" with a footnote but rather that a direct quote should be employed "Dr K. Joy describes homeopathy as 'quackery of the worst kind'". Direct quotes from notables are the best way of delivering pejorative characterizations. The best criticism on wiki, as in life, is specific criticism. Naturstud (talk) 14:19, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

That's particular attribution - an attempt to lessen the impact of a majority view by treating it as if it was held by only one proponent. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:27, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Notes & references

This should be the last section. If you notice a new section below, please "fix it" by moving this section back to the bottom of the page. Thank you.