Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Major depressive disorder/restart

Major depressive disorder

Nominator(s): Casliber (talk · contribs)

• Featured article candidates/Major depressive disorder
• Featured article candidates/Major depressive disorder/restart

This can be considered a group nomination, although where to draw the line can be hazy. For some months, three editors (me, Cosmic Latte and Paul Gene) have been in a concerted effort to get this here, along with EverSince and others along the way. delldot gave a very thorough review, and orangemarlin, Tony and many others have chipped in with advice, including negotiating a way through alternative therapies and so forth. Do I think it is perfect? No, but I do honestly feel it is one of Wikipedia's best articles and stands up well with others I have been involved with. We didn't send it to GAN mainly as delldot did such a thorough workthrough and the size was such I sorta felt it was a big ask for one editor to read and judge. One final thing, the article stands at 51 kb readable prose, 1 kb more than the upper limit for FAC. However, I have been unable to figure out what the last little bit to lose, or whether folks felt ignoring the rules WRT article size was okay. I figured this may be the best venue for consensus on this, in the coal-face as it were. Anyway, lemme know how we can make it betterer. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:57, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Images

• Image:Albert Ellis 2003 emocionalmente sentado.jpg is concerning; "Received from Martine Mallary of the Albert Ellis Institute on 5/10/2005 in response to my request for a copyright-free photo." — ideally we'd have an OTRS ticket or some other form of evidence. Jay Slupesky doesn't have email enabled but you may wish to try pinging his talk page.

I note Jay has not edited in over a year. I will try to fire off an email to the Institute directly. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Lavater1.jpg needs a specific source (which 18th century text by Johann Kaspar Lavater?). Once that's done I'll move it to Commons.

It comes from Physiognomische Fragmente zur Beförderung der Menschenkenntnis und Menschenliebe (1775-1778). So transfer away...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Emil Kraepelin.png needs a source; there's no evidence that it's PD-US at the moment.
• Same for Image:Wm james.jpg.

Giggy (talk) 13:06, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment: Isn't it PD-US if it's more than 70 years past the date of publication? Both Kraepelin and James died more than 70 years ago, so I'm assuming that criterion would apply here. Cosmic Latte (talk) 03:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• I thought it was 70 years after the death of the author, but I could be wrong. delldot ∇. 04:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Hmm, according to this, it's PD-US if it A) was published before 1978, but is now more than 95 years after the first publication; or B) was published after 1978, but is now more than 70 years after the author's death. James died 98 years ago, Kraepelin 82, so I'm thinking it's safe to assume that at least the James picture meets criterion A? Cosmic Latte (talk) 06:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Status on the image issues? I asked Elcobbola (talk · contribs) to look in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:26, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Not my forte - I thought we were good WRT age of older pix, but feel free to remove any/all which elcobbola thinks do not qualify. None are absolutely crucial though all help punctuate what would otherwise be an ocean of text. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:50, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Elcobbola hasn't been on for five days; maybe you can entice Awadewit (talk · contribs) to have a look? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:18, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Further comments on images: (per the FAC talk page - blame Sandy)

• Image:Synapse Illustration2 tweaked.svg - needs a reliable source about where the information in the image came from. Though it was created by the uploader, Nrets had to get the information from somewhere. If you have an image in your sources that is similar, or a source that sufficiently describes what is happening in the image, use that by placing it in the Source line in parentheses.
• If you don't have a response about the Albert Ellis image, you might try hiding it until you do.
• There seems to be good reason to use the image of Emil Kraepelin. You might even download another one. Just a Google Search for images of him shows quite a few. Since he died in 1926, it's reasonably safe to say the images of him were taken before that. This image, for example, was taken in 1900. I don't read German, but "circa" cross-translates.
• The same goes for the image of William James, although a source summary template should be included in the image. Let me know if you have questions. --Moni3 (talk) 13:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments -

• You've mixed using the Template:Citation with the templates that start with Cite such as Template:Cite journal or Template:Cite news. They shouldn't be mixed per WP:CITE#Citation templates.
• Current ref 28 (Warman, et. al.) is lacking a last access date (done)
• Current ref 74 (Beck Depression ..) is lacking a last access date (done)
• Current ref 83 (World Health Organization) is lacking a last access date (done and formatted)
• Looks like current ref 176 (WHO) has a formatting glitch of some sort (done and formatted)
• Current ref 209 (gutenburg.org) is just a bare url (done and formatted)
• Current ref 235 (Geoghegan) is lacking a last access date (done)
• Current ref 242 (Pita) is lacking a publisher. Also what makes this a reliable source? (the link shows it having been published in a newspaper's magazine supplement. Not great I know, I didn't put it there and will see what consensus here decides, and read the RS bit elsewhere)

• Comment: The publisher appears to be a major Spanish newspaper; the article is a translation of this. Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:42, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• http://nccam.nih.gov/health/stjohnswort/sjwataglance.htm+ deadlinks (fixed, it was the erratn '+' on the end which glitched it)

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• WRT cite templates, I use cite book/journal etc, but I thought the generic citation was necessary for Harvard referencing, which I tried to do with the cited texts which have several inline references scattered through the list. I can change the harvard ones to cite book but would hte harvard still work? Will get to work on the others when I wake up, but I need to sleep now. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Check with Mav (talk · contribs) or one of his latest FARs ... he has a way of doing it (using cite xxx templates with Harvnbs) that I haven't figured out or bookmarked yet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Found it (although I don't understand it): see Death Valley National Park. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:58, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

• To use the code that's in the templates directly without using the templates themselves, you would put (e.g.) [[#Smith99|Smith AB (1999)]] for the harv and <cite style="font-style:normal" id="Smith99">{{cite book|author=Smith AB |...}}</cite> for citation. I'm sure there's some more elegant way of doing this though. delldot ∇. 04:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC) (Actually you could keep using {{harv}} as long as you format the cite tag with id="CITEREFLastnameYear" to correspond with how the harv template sets it.) delldot ∇. 06:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm unwatching this FAC, since it's just the Harv thing that's waiting, and Sandy'll keep that on her radar. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:38, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Aha, done it - delldot's note worked - all citations now cite books. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:35, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Not quite there yet ... there are still citation templates mixed with the cite xxx templates. The way to tell is to go into edit mode, scroll to the bottom of the page, and you'll see all the transcluded templates. Then do a ctrl-f to find the citation templates and fix them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:29, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, all citations should be gone now (used ctrl-F). Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:55, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment about the world map why are low sucide rates in red? and high rates in yellow & orange? I suggest switching to something more obvious such as green/blue, then yelow, then orange and red/black for worst. Nergaal (talk) 23:01, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

:Good idea. I will ask on the commons page. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:03, 20 October 2008 (UTC) Done, now a ghoulish green. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:36, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Wording seems misleading in places. Examples:

• (from lead) - "However, the relief of symptoms usually occurs several weeks or more after changes in neurotransmitter levels, which suggests that the precise role of neurotransmitter levels in depressive illness is still not fully understood." - That symptom relief may occur weeks after neurotransmitter levels change is not the only evidence "that the precise role of neurotransmitter levels in depressive illness is still not fully understood." - It is only one example. Perhaps rewording could generalize for a statement in the lead.

OK, good point - regarding detail in the lead, do you think just noting tehre are several factors is enough, or shall I add the facts that depletion in some people does not cause or worsen depression, and drugs which don't work on the pathway. How much detail you think we need there? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems like it would be complex to detail factors in the lead as it is a complex issue, as you note (depletion in some people does not cause or worsen depression, some antidepressant drugs don't work on the pathway, some drugs work on pathway but don't relieve depression, effective drugs vary as to neurotransmitter(s) or neurotransmitter combination primarily affected). And you might have to explain "how" the mechanism might work (blocking reuptake receptors rather than increasing release, etc.). So, one suggestion would be to remove the specific example, so to read something like: "The neurotransmitters serotonin and norepinephrine have been implicated, and most antidepressants work to increase their active levels in the brain. However, the precise role of neurotransmitter levels in depressive illness is still not fully understood." —Mattisse (Talk) 14:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

I like it; done. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:23, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Psychological factors include the complex development of personality and how a person has learned to cope with external environmental factors, such as stress." Perhaps you could reword it. The last part is just a specific example of the first part. The reference given for the sentence does not say anything about "personality development" or "stress" but rather describes a study in which 78 subjects received 20 sessions of cognitive-behavioral therapy for treatment of depression and gives specific examples of behaviors associated with subsequent relapse derived from questionnaire data. —Mattisse (Talk) 04:11, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

yeah, need to fix that one. Will check some refs tonight. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, reworded and combined with following para, so there is general intro sentence followed by several more specific sentences. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:16, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, the referencing seems off base, perhaps the result of so many people editing the article.

• "The impact on functioning and well-being has been equated to that of congestive heart failure." - This type of referencing just makes me wonder about the relationship of information in the article to the references. The article abstract says, "Cross-sectional studies have found that depression is uniquely associated with limitations in well-being and functioning that were equal to or greater than those of chronic general medical conditions such as diabetes and arthritis. ... [We conducted a study of] 1790 adult outpatients with depression, diabetes, hypertension, recent myocardial infarction, and/or congestive heart failure. ... RESULTS: Over 2 years of follow-up, limitations in functioning and well-being improved somewhat for depressed patients; even so, at the end of 2 years, these limitations were similar to or worse than those attributed to chronic medical illnesses."

So what is the rationale for picking congestive heart failure specifically and singling it out?

• I can only speculate about the original rationale, although it certainly gets across the point that depression can be bad news. Anyway, I've modified it with this diff. Cosmic Latte (talk) 07:14, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• The original article uses CCF as a particularly dramatic example WRT impact on functioning, for some reason not mentioned in the abstract. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:26, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Kent, Deborah (2003), Snake Pits, Talking Cures & Magic Bullets: A History of Mental Illness, Twenty-First Century Books, ISBN 0761327045

What makes this book an appropriate source for this article? Surely you could have found a recognized historian of medicine/psychology/psychiatry reference in place of this one to source The Anatomy of Melancholy as the "seminal scholarly work of the 17th century".

Agree, not hugely fussed as it is historical, but I will look into it and see what I can find. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• "Norepinephrine may be related to alertness and energy as well as anxiety, attention, and interest in life; [lack of] serotonin to anxiety, obsessions, and compulsions; and dopamine to attention, motivation, pleasure, and reward, as well as interest in life." - Is this direct quote from the reference at the end of the paragraph?

Yes Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• (picked at random): "General population studies indicate around half those who have a major depressive episode (whether treated or not) will have at least one more and a minority experience chronic recurrence." - The reference to this is one prospective study of subjects in East Baltimore, Maryland, an urban setting, a very specific subject group, and so does not support the sentence re "General population studies". Such a general statement, in my opinion, should be referenced by a minimum of one general review article covering multiple studies that comes to this conclusion.

Prognosis varies according to population drawn from (eg data vary between general community, outpatient and inpatient populations etc.), and this is part of a larger paragraph with other sources. I can see your point and have been looking around. Agree an extra review article would be handy Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:59, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Reference 190 This link for the article title appears to be dead:http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/48/9/851 You have a PMID reference to it, so you might just take the link out of the article title.

—Mattisse (Talk) 14:32, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

done Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:30, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Support.(--Garrondo (talk) 11:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)) Comments. VERY IMPRESSIVE ARTICLE. It has great prose and explains everything in a very neat and undestandable way. Clearly one of the best articles recently seen in the medicine category for FAC. Congratulations to each one of the editors. If I had to vote right now I would clearly support it. However I have a few minor (very, very minor) issues. I only had time to read though half of the article. I will add some more tomorrow.

Signs and symptoms

• this is a typical presentation in developing countries: Is there any reason to think that there is a different presentation in developing countries and alredy developed? What are the differences? (I think there is not; so I would symply eliminate the sentence and leave the ref).

• I'd prefer to leave as is - presenting with somatic symptoms is more common in developing countries, and is hence a specific feature to look for. This was a late addition to the article as I gathered material to make the article less first world-centric. It actually rings true as I find in practice that many people from non-english cultures offer up somatic symptoms prominently. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:17, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

• Older people with major depression are more likely than younger people to show cognitive symptoms such as forgetfulness, and also tend to show a more noticeable slowing of movements.: The ref has no abstract and it is from 1961. It would be great if a newer ref with abstract was provided since it would be easier to access it. (Not mandatory anyway) (I have added a readable online book reference from consensus guidelines produced by the RANZCP)

• In severe cases, depressed people may experience psychotic symptoms such as delusions or, less commonly, hallucinations: I would provide a succinct definition of delusions and hallucinations inside brackets after each of the words for clarity.

I am not so sure - delusion is a pretty common word, I can add (fixed false beliefs) after it if a consensus think it will help. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:37, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Similarly, a hallucination is a "false sensory perception without a real external stimulus" - I feel this would be cumbersome to include and see the value of a bluelink in linking to a detailed explanation. However, I can include if folks think it is necessary. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:42, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to add it or not. I tend to explain more words in medical articles that what it is done in this article, but that is only a custom, and as the length of this article is at its maximum I would understand you kept it as condensed as possible. --Garrondo (talk) 09:13, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Those older than 12 years may also begin abusing drugs or alcohol, or exhibit disruptive behavior. Diagnosis may be delayed or missed as symptoms may be interpreted as normal moodiness. Thoughts or attempts of suicide are rare in children with major depression under 12 years of age.: Unreferenced (reffed two bits and removed third, as that bit involves speculation about suicides after the event - epidemiological figures for children I am not too familiar with, but what I have found would be more general. I was debating a general statement about suicide in children under 14 being rare, but is that going off-topic if not specifically attached to major depression? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Causes

• "Norepinephrine may be related to alertness and energy as well as anxiety, attention, and interest in life; [lack of] serotonin to anxiety, obsessions, and compulsions; and dopamine to attention, motivation, pleasure, and reward, as well as interest in life." Why does it have this sentence "? Is it a quotation?

• Yes, that's a direct quotation being used to elucidate the Monoamine Hypothesis. Cosmic Latte (talk) 07:00, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Antidepressants that do not act through the monoamine system, such as tianeptine and opipramol, have been known about for a long time.: it is not clear which is its ref

Diagnosis

• This one is very important: An EEG may be ordered to rule out the early dementia that can present with depressive symptoms in older patients: Most common dementias (Alzheimer, Parkinson and Lewy Bodies) can not ruled out with an EEG. Would not be more useful to search for a reference on cognitive screening; which is the most common way of searching for dementia? There are probably a good buch of refs on the use of mini-mental and depression-dementia. In most cases patients feel that they have cognitive impairment (mainly memory problems) but they are depressed so a mini-mental or other more complete neuropsychological tests would rule out cognitive impairment. However depression can also precced or cooccur with dementia and there are also some indications that depression does cause mild cognitive deficits in executive functions.

Garrondo (talk •

Aha, good pickup. what I had meant was that EEGs will sometimes have characteristic slow waves in delirium or dementia - this was for the investigations section, and you are right, it is less important than cognitive testing (to rule out dementia) in older people. I just note we haven't got anything on cognitive testing in older people in the article (d'oh!). Will try to rectify later tonight. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I have been bold and changed completely the sentence and left it as follows (with appropiate refs): Subjective cognitive complaints appear in older depressed people, but they can also be indicative of the onset of a dementing disorder, such as Alzheimer's disease. Depression is also a common initial symtom of dementia. Conducted in older depressed people, screening tests such as the mini-mental state examination, or a more complete neuropsychological evaluation, can discard cognitive impairment. --Garrondo (talk) 10:17, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice one, thanks for that, I was pondering how general or specific to be and you've summed it up well. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:00, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm a neuropsychologist, so cognitive impairment it is really the only thing I know about. :-). With this one all my comments have been addressed.--Garrondo (talk) 11:20, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Some more comments:--Garrondo (talk) 07:44, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Treatment

• Exercise has shown to have moderate, but not statistically significant, effects in reducing the symptoms of depression: If something is not statistically significant it means there was no effect. There are not non-statistically significant effects.

reworded to "Exercise has not been shown to reduce the symptoms of depression". Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Some more comments: With this ones I finish my review. I want to say again the impressive work made in this article.--Garrondo (talk) 10:28, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Epidemiology

• Depression is a major cause of morbidity the world over: Is not over the world?

changed it to "worldwide" (the world over is a quaint english idiom anyway) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• In the year 2030, it is predicted to be the second leading cause of disease burden worldwide (after HIV), according to the World Health Organization: Are the brackets really needed? (I would eliminate them)

parentheses duly removed Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:39, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Comments by delldot ∇.

Wow, very much improved since the peer review I gave it, it's a really great read now, very well organized and informative. Most of these are very minor points about wording.
Lead *However, the relief of symptoms usually occurs several weeks or more after changes in neurotransmitter levels, which suggests that the precise role of neurotransmitter levels in depressive illness is still not fully understood. - Sounds a little repetitive with two uses of 'neurotransmitter levels'. Also use of 'suggests' seems a little weird there; wouldn't we know for sure whether it's fully understood?

Has been changed in the course of this FAC, and you are right BTW Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:56, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

*Is there a reason why 'percent' is used in the lead and % is used elsewhere? ::No idea...will check MOS, if nothing there then a symbol it shall be... Cheers, Casliber (talk · Wikipedia:MOS#Percentages - erm, not sure. Having read this, ee could go either way I guess. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:59, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I would make it consistent one way or the other. I think more scientific articles tend to use %. delldot ∇. 03:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

agree on thinking about it; done Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 15:01, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Signs and symptoms

• Could you shorten this without losing meaning? in the typical pattern, a person reports waking very early and being unable to get back to sleep → in the typical pattern, a person wakes very early and is unable to get back to sleep (done) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:41, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
• Those older than 12 years may also begin abusing drugs or alcohol, or exhibit disruptive behavior. -- This kind of makes it sound like kids under 12 never do this, I imagine it's supposed to mean something more like kids over 12 are more likely to, but it's not impossible in younger kids either. Also, just mentioning drugs and alcohol in the peds para makes it sound like that's not a symptom in adults; I thought it was.

(forgot this one) - ok, although substance use does occur in adults with depression, these people are usually (a) more able to articulate their feelings and (b) more likely to have a low mood - teenagers are less likely and also often have an irritable mood, hence it is more in what else is seen around it so to be more mindful of it in this age group (as it is less obvious), or something like it :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:48, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I think I see what you're saying, it's not as much of a symptom in adults, more of a comorbidity? delldot ∇. 05:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Causes

• ...the idea that some components of depression are adaptations. This is a surprising assertion, could we have an example? What could possibly be adaptive about depression?

• The elaboration currently comes toward the end of the article, in Sociocultural aspects--i.e., depression can elicit social support, or it can work in a way analogous to physical pain by preventing hasty actions. Maybe something about this should be said earlier? Cosmic Latte (talk) 07:07, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Maybe allude to that then (e.g. "see below", although I don't know if that per se is accepted practice). delldot ∇. 06:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• Most antidepressants increase synaptic levels of the monoamine neurotransmitter serotonin. - this is the first use of 'monoamine', maybe give a bit of an explanation of what it means?
• tianeptine and opipramol, have been known about for a long time. -- 'been known about' sounds weird.
• A depressive episode may also be triggered by a loss of religious faith. - non-sequitur there, maybe would fit in with a list of events that can precipitate it (e.g. Vulnerability factors—namely early maternal loss...).
• an external locus of control, a tendency to attribute outcomes to external events perceived to be uncontrollable. - it's better to avoid reusing a word from the term you're trying to define in the definition (e.g. 'external is external').
• What's going on with the two different sets of quotation marks here: "In mourning 'it is the world that has become poor and empty; in [depression] it is the ego itself.'" Who's saying what?

• The article authors are quoting Freud, but the initial "In mourning" comes from the article authors themselves. Cosmic Latte (talk) 07:09, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Maybe reword to avoid having to quote the article writers then--two sets of quotes is confusing. delldot ∇. 06:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

• parents have problems with alcoholism -- this strikes me as redundant, maybe because it seems like alcoholism would always be problematic. Maybe parents are alcoholic or have problems with alcohol.

yep, good tautological pickup, changed to "..a parent with alcoholism" Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:48, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Diagnosis

• If you're looking for material to cut down for length, you could remove the para starting Specialist mental health services are rare in rural areas... this is not remarkable for depression probably, it would be the case for everything. (Or cut it down).

I have mixed feelings about this. Tony noted a first-world bias about the article and wondered if/how it could be addressed. I actually feel it is important to briefly touch on the contrast between urban first-world services and developing countries (and even rural Australia for that matter!). It is important WRT MDD as it is often thought a disorder of developed countries only, yet data shows it worldwide. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, no problem then. delldot ∇. 06:36, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Prognosis

• I think it should be 40–70% rather than 40% to 70% per WP:MOSNUM# Percentages. (done)Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:38, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Refs

• Some journal titles are abbreviated, some aren't. Some abbreviations have periods, some don't. I don't mind helping to go through and make these consistent if you let me know which style you prefer for all of them.

• Aargh, thought I got 'em all. Go for it! Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Which style? delldot ∇. 03:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Isn't the first letter after a colon in an article title supposed to be capitalized? Again I don't mind doing it myself as long as I know I'm supposed to. Either way it should be made consistent.

Ditto. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:37, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Caps after the colon, right? delldot ∇. 03:11, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Great work overall! More comments to follow. delldot ∇. 06:43, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support—although I must disclose that I copy-edited the lead and first one or two sections last month. I hope that this is the first of a run of articles in a woefully undertreated part of WP (psychiatry and psychology) in which Casliber puts his considerable expertise to great public benefit. I'd like to return and make a few detailed comments. Here's one: " A depressive episode may also be triggered by a loss of religious faith." I think this is oddly prominent in the rather short lead para to the section "Psychological", and the Journal of Religion and Health, although published by Springer, is hardly a mainstream source in the field. The article is from 36 years ago; is it relevant nowadays? BTW, can you insert "causes" after the solely adjectival subtitles in the "Causes" section? They look strange, and I think MoS says titles should usually be nominal groups. Tony (talk) 08:28, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I was trying to keep subheadings as succinct as possible, but agree above improvement sounds good. An opinion on whether a bracketed explanation of delusions and hallucinations (i.e. whether we should have them or not) would be appreciated, as I am torn/on the fence with this one. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:55, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support as contributor. Cosmic Latte (talk) 09:31, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Support as a minor contributor. I think it was well-written, and this process is great. I must have read the article 5 times, and I didn't see half the points that have been pointed out. I'm embarrassed that I missed the Alzheimer's EEG issue, since I helped write the Alzheimer's with Garrondo. I'm kicking myself. Anyways, excellent article. OrangeMarlin ^{Talk• Contributions} 14:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment on prose - The prose is rather dull and repetitious. For example, the overuse of "may", which is a weak, vague word, in the Biological causes section:

They may also enhance the levels of two other neurotransmitters, norepinephrine and dopamine.

Norepinephrine may be related to alertness and energy as well as anxiety, attention, and interest in life;

Serotonin may help regulate other neurotransmitter systems,

and decreased serotonin activity may allow these systems to act in unusual and erratic ways

Facets of depression may be emergent properties of this dysregulation

There may be a link between depression and neurogenesis of the hippocampus

Drugs may increase serotonin levels in the brain

This increase may help to restore mood and memor

Depression may also be caused in part by an overactive hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis

Depression may be affected by variations in the circadian rhythm.

Can this be worded better? There is one paragraph in this section that does not contain the word "may", starting with "In the past two decades, research has uncovered multiple limitations of the monoamine theory, and its inadequacy has been criticized within the psychiatric community..." and this paragraph is by far the clearest, most straightforward one in the section. And it does not use the passive voice which improves it. In general, so much use of the passive voice in this section makes for less interesting reading. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:56, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

delldot noted lots of "may"s a while ago and I did a big sweep through; I ddid notice some more but you have pointed out a fair few. The issue is alot of the ideas in the paragraph are not definite but conjectural. Nevertheless, I will do a sweep-through and see if we can "mix up" the prose a little. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:15, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

You can do better that "conjectural", can't you? "The evidence of .... indicates..."; The majority of recent literature supports the theory that..."; "There is evidence to support..."; Studies, including those of so-and-so, support the hypothesis that..." etc. Too tired now but I hope I am conveying the idea. —Mattisse (Talk) 05:57, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Erm, I should have clarified - I wasn't going to use the word as such in the paragraph. Paul Gene added alot of those sources and he seems to be having a (hopefully temporary) wikibreak. Have to be wary of general "There is evidence.." type statements too, still mixing it up ain't a bad idea. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:51, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

More from delldot ∇.

Some more minor points about the writing:
Diagnosis

• "Postpartum depression, which has incidence rate of 10–15%," among who? Probably among new mothers, but it should be specified. (done)

Treatment

• Too many 'patients' in this sentence: Patients are usually assessed and managed as outpatients, and only admitted to an inpatient mental health unit if they are considered to pose a risk to themselves or others. (dammit, this is a hard one. I have been musing about it for a bit now)

• Maybe "care is usually given on an outpatient basis, but... when there is significant risk..."? Two 'patients' is OK IMO, I just thought three was too much. It's really not a big deal anyway. delldot ∇. 05:02, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

• their overall effect is low-to-moderate. I think this would be low to moderate when you're not using it as an adjective before the noun. (yeah, done)
• If you're looking for material to cut to shorten the article, you could move the discussion on the meta-analyses to another article, e.g. depression research or something. This is probably more detail than the average reader is looking for, is quite technical, and as has been mentioned the article's long. Besides, were these two studies so much more important than the tons of others that have been done that they deserve this prominent mention? I would get rid of the first para under 'Efficacy of medication and psychotherapy' (or leave one sentence of summary) and merge the second into the medication section. (no-one has actually jumped up and down about length this FAC, so right now I am not so fussed, however let's see if I mention it what happens)
• Awkward sentence: Short-term memory loss, disorientation, headache and other adverse effects are common, as are long-term memory[157] and other cognitive deficits, which may persist. changed to "Common initial adverse effects include short-term memory loss, disorientation, headache; long-term memory and other cognitive deficits may persist."

Prognosis

• Do the refs at the end of the para cover the sentence beginning Recurrence occurs in 40–70% ? (they can do, but I didn't enter much of this and I am wondering if a reference was lost or mixed up here. There is no review article for some reason. I will see what I can do) (Actually, that statement duplicated material elsewhere, so I removed it and buffed the sentence two before it.)

Epidemiology

• Researchers who compared epidemiological factors in Canada and the US found the rate of major depression to be twice as high for Americans... Could you just say The rate of major depression is twice as high for Americans... or is the 'researchers' part necessary info? (Upon reading it, yeah, I think it needs a bit of context as it is an interesting stat and maybe kept as qualified - I changed it to " A 2007 study...")
• The epidemiology section could use better organization, it kind of skips around. e.g. Depressive episodes following a heart attack might even correspond with an increased risk of further cardiac complications, including death. and Depressed people also have a higher rate of dying from other causes. could be grouped together as similar concepts. First and third paras both mention gender, and the first and last paras discuss morbidity and disease burden respectively. (reorganised so first para is more prevalence and incidence/age etc, second is more social, 3rd is suicide related. Much of this section was moved from elsewhere late in the peace)

Refs

• There are (were) several links to articles you have to pay to get--I think the consensus is to remove these and link only the abstracts (if there's no PMID, you can link to the abstract like this: "Melancholia: A Historical Review" (abstract). I took out the ones I saw, but can you check the links to make sure the rest are accessible? I didn't take this one out because a lot of people might be able to access it. (NYtimes is free to register I think) (I have checked up to ref 131 but I need to sleep now, more later all good now, removed a couple more. There are some duplicate abstracts still)

Keep up the good work. delldot ∇. 05:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Support. A tough subject, thoroughly handled. It is not an easy read, partly due to the subject matter, but also the prose is quite demanding of the general reader. I couldn't get past the Causes section the first time I tried to read this. A few points:

• "In such cases, clients may be especially unaffected by therapeutic intervention" The word "clients" is inappropriate here. (yep; changed to "patients")
• The quotation beginning "a profoundly painful dejection" isn't verbatim. The quotation beginning "In mourning 'it is the world..." contains single quotes that aren't in the source.
• Lithium isn't wikilinked. (wikilinked now to Lithium#Medical_use)
• The Efficacy subsection has a number of problems.

• The "Two recent meta-analyses" suffers from WP:DATED and should state it looked at SSRIs. It can then be noted that this compares against the older tricyclic imipramine.
• The "Despite obtaining similar results, the authors argued about their interpretation. One author concluded that.. The other author agreed that..He pointed out that" has problems because both meta analyses are multi-author papers and the comments attributed to the second "author" came from a later editorial by two of the five authors of the second meta-analysis. The reader wouldn't be interested in the opinion of (apparently) just two people here. It looks like the statement (which you quote) about "seems little evidence to support" has provoked discussion and is worth citing and attributing to the authors of the first study. My guess is the editorial was just one example of the debate that followed and so that debate should probably be described differently to how it is here. In particular, the glass half empty quote is pretty meaningless and remains so even when you know why glasses are mentioned.
• What isn't clear to the reader (until they get to Prognosis) is what is meant by "improvement" wrt treating depression. With most diseases, folk want to be cured, and might regard treatment as making someone no longer depressed. But it looks like improvment can be regarded as being just a little bit less depressed, and the editorial focussed on how much less depressed is needed in order to judge clinical significance.
• The terms "clinically significant" and "effect size" aren't defined wrt these treatments.
• I'm not sure "their overall effect is low to moderate" is justified by the sources. I may be wrong but it looks more like "non-existent to low".
• It is quite disconcernting to read the Psychotherapy and Medication sections and the discussion of X is "effective" and Y is "effective" and then discover the effect is minimal when you get to the "Efficacy" section. The spat between the two "authors" seems like "A: Drugs are a bit rubbish. B: Depends what you mean by rubbish. Oh and psychotherapy isn't any better."

Colin°^Talk 23:51, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The more I look at the section - Major_depressive_disorder#Efficacy_of_medication_and_psychotherapy - the more I am unsure if its presence actually benefits the article. There are a whole heap of issues regarding antidepressants used in studies - higher effects due to nonpublication of negative results, and lower effects due to differing populations used (eg nonsuicidal patients in trials, whereas a large number do in clinical practice do (which suggests the population we treat are more severe anyway, and many have been depressed alot longer than those entering trials. Looking at it, it needs more material on studies of depressed people etc. to help the reader understand the results, and as it is, it may be too much depth for this general article, and better placed in Treatment for depression, where it can be done justice, with the section reduced to a couple of lines and added to Treatment section (at bottom). What do you reckon, or do you reckon the studies were too important not to be at least discussed here. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:22, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Whoa! Thanks for the support vote, I will see what I can do. You are welcome to substitute any plainer english word for more technical one without loss of meaning. I do sometimes forget which words are more jargony than others, being 'in the field' and all... :) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:42, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Image review - There are serious problems with the images in this article:

• Image concerns have now been resolved. Awadewit (talk) 20:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Synapse Illustration2 tweaked.svg - The image description needs to list the source for the information contained in the image itself.

• I don't know where the image's creator got the info, although it's fairly common knowledge--anyway I added a source that contains the information. Cosmic Latte (talk) 15:46, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Sigmund Freud-loc.jpg - "No known restrictions" is not the same as the public domain. You must establish that this image is in the public domain in some way. I am thinking that "copyright not renewed" might be the only way, but that is difficult.

• image is not absolutely central, we only got it as we thought it was PD, so removed

• Image:Albert Ellis 2003 emocionalmente sentado.jpg - We need proof that the copyright owner released this image - I am thinking an OTRS ticket might be required.

• I have commented out ellis image for the moment until OTRS can be done. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Lavater1.jpg - We need the full publication information for the book from which this image came - who published it and where? Were there multiple editions? Also, was the image scanned directly from the book or is this from a website? The commons bot has erased the source information, sadly.

Now I have looked at Public Domain - it is an old drawing from a book published 1775-1778 (Physiognomische Fragmente zur Beförderung der Menschenkenntnis und Menschenliebe), and I can pretty well guarantee the orginal uploader must have had a newer reproduction of the image, but even if newer, isn't it clear that it was first published 330 years ago? I guess I should brush up on these, as I am not so crash hot as we always get free images for bird articles. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Image:LavaterHollowayFaces.png - I have uploaded a copy from the English translation with all of the appropriate information. Clearly this is not as good as the original version, but until we can obtain all of the information for the German version, etc., will this suffice? Awadewit (talk) 15:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic, thankyou very much. I was/am quite fond of the illustration (audible sigh of relief) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Emil Kraepelin.png - There is no source, date, or photographer for this image. The license cannot be verified.

• removed, we'll find some free images, wasn't absolutely central anyway. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Image:Wm james.jpg - There is no source, date, or photographer for this image. The license cannot be verified.

• removed, we'll find some free images, wasn't absolutely central anyway. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:06, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings! Awadewit (talk) 13:39, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, you gotta do what you gotta do. The synapse one I can find a source for the information (and is probably the most important of those listed). Others are not so, but will see what I can do. I am a little bit tied up till November 1 but will have a look around. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:41, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

As much as I hated to do it, I've removed the unsourced James and Kreapelin images. The caption for the James image contained information that wasn't in the text, so I rephrased it slightly and added it to the text. I suppose that, in the future, one or more of us could add properly sourced images of these folks to the Commons. Cosmic Latte (talk) 09:03, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Please let me strike my own comments per WP:TALK - thanks! It helps me keep things organized! Awadewit (talk) 12:07, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, sorry about that. I will look for some images I can guarantee are in the public domain or otherwise get permission from copyright holder. I am not too fussed though. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment - I have been making multiple changes in parts I found a little inaccurate. I hope you don't mind. One suggestion I have is changing the paragraph order in Diagnosis > Clinical assessment. In the U.S., the first point of patient contact could be a general practitioner, psychologist, or other mental health professional who would conduct an assessment. A general pracitioner might prescribe antidepressants without referral to a psychiatrist. A psychiatrist would typically prescribe medication without a medical assessment as described a doctor would do. A psychologist, in those states where psychologists do not have prescribing privileges, would refer to a psychiatrist if a need for a medication assessment were deemed necessary. Without getting into all of this, I would suggest switching the first two paragraphs in the Clinical assessment section, as the complete assessment by a doctor is usually not the first step, in the U.S. at least. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:33, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I have kept an eye on the changes and have been happy thus far - the two paragraphs currently underneath Clinical assessment to me are interchangeable - there is a valid case for either of them coming first. The more I think about it, Oz and the UK are not too different, as we can be alerted by social workers, etc. as well as GPs. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:14, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Question - I am wondering about the accuracy of this statement: "The Beck Depression Inventory, is one of the most widely used tools in the diagnosis of depression,". Are you saying in the U.S. or where? —Mattisse (Talk) 01:43, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

• WP:ITALICS check, why are any of those tools in italics?

• The Beck Depression Inventory is one of the most widely used tools in the diagnosis of depression, although its main purpose is not diagnosis, but determining the presence and severity of symptoms. ... Other scales commonly used include the Geriatric Depression Scale in older populations, which is also valid in patients with mild to moderate dementia; the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (HRSD-21) designed by psychiatrist Max Hamilton in 1960; and the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS).

• SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:48, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think naming all these rating scales, many of which I have never heard of, adds to the article, especially since the Rating scales section starts out by saying that evidence indicates rating scales are ineffective as diagnostic instruments for depression anyway. —Mattisse (Talk) 01:57, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, the Beck and Hamilton (and to a lesser extent the other two) are highly notable and often-quoted. I even saw the Beck (BDI) parodied as 'beady-eye' in a comic skit by English comedian Jo Brand. The Hamilton has been the most widely used for about 30 years but I don't have a ref for it (got a ref saying it was the most widley used in the 80s and not been able to find a more recent one). I wasn't sure about italics or not, I guess I saw them as a "work" of some sort, and used the italics for emphasis mor than anything else as well. I think rewording Beck to "widely used" is better. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:04, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

PS: They are the four most notable (by far) out of a large number of raiting scales, so my feeling was/is providing a note on them is good. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

O.K. The Beck of course for historical reasons and because it is frequently used in research and because Beck is an important figure in depression research. And perhaps one or two others. But I question the statement for the rating scale "which is also valid in patients with mild to moderate dementia"; it has only a 1988 journal reference. I would like to see more than that one journal article. And two of the references in that section have invalid pmid numbers. Not to be hard on you. Sorry to freak out over rating scales! —Mattisse (Talk) 02:26, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The PMIDs are good, there is something wrong with PubMed right now (or our template, I'm not sure yet). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:30, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

This ref is probably very interesting: review article by Katz on the diagnosis of depression in dementia: it specifically talks about the GDS and the Hamilton scales and their good realiability. I have only read the abstract, but it may be enouth to address Mattisse doubts. Diagnosis and treatment of depression in patients with Alzheimer's disease and other dementias. PMID: 9720486.--Garrondo (talk) 08:59, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Back to my original Question: I am wondering about the accuracy of this statement: "The Beck Depression Inventory, is one of the most widely used tools in the diagnosis of depression". The reference at the end of the sentence does not address the use of how widely it is used. Are you saying in the U.S. or where? There are so many general statements in this article that do not specify what country you are talking about. Regarding the rating scales, are you saying worldwide "The Beck Depression Inventory, is one of the most widely used tools in the diagnosis of depression"? What about the other scales? I think you should specify where these instruments are being used. One reference you gave stated the U.K. decided not to use them as they were not cost effective. What are the dates of these sources on rating scales? Many of the references to rating scales go back to the 1960s. The latest for the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale seems to be 1980. —Mattisse (Talk) 14:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The reason why they are so old is becouse the ref provided is for the original publication of the questionnaire, as it is common to cite in medical journals; which does not mean that an additional review article on them could be of use.--Garrondo (talk) 15:21, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:V, primary sources should be used sparingly. When you want to refer to seminal primary sources or original publications, they can be worked into the text by referring both to the original source and a secondary review of that source, as in this sample sentence from Tourette syndrome: A 1998 study published by Leckman et al of the Yale Child Study Center showed that the ages of highest tic severity are eight to twelve (average ten), with tics steadily declining for most patients as they pass through adolescence. The statement is sourced to a secondary source review, but refers back to the primary source. In this case, the primary source is included only because it was seminal research that altered the landscape of TS research and understanding. See WP:MEDRS and Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-30/Dispatches. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:01, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I have finally added the Katz review to the article; I have also found this article, which says that 3 of the most common questionnaries are those of Hamilton, Beck and Montgomery: Measuring depression: comparison and integration of three scales in the GENDEP study. PMID: 17922940 .--Garrondo (talk) 15:48, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

• Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS) needs a better reference than a 1979 study on a sample of British and Swedish subjects. —Mattisse (Talk) 16:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

That is the original article, the very first primary source, where the questionnaire is explained. What else do you need? (My question is not ironic, I really want to know what other kind of ref are you looking for; since for any scientific journal that ref would be enough)--Garrondo (talk) 16:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

See WP:MEDRS per SandyGeorgia's comment above. —Mattisse (Talk) 19:10, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Would these one be enough?:A review of studies of the Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale in controls: implications for the definition of remission in treatment studies of depression PMID: 15101563. I quote The Montgomery-Asberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS) is one of the most commonly used symptom severity scales to evaluate the efficacy of antidepressant treatment. Similarly for the Hamilton scale: Rating scales in depression: limitations and pitfalls PMID: 16889106. Quote: Since the introduction of antidepressants to psychopharmacology in the 1960s, the Hamilton Depression Rating Scale (HAM-D) has been the most frequently used rating scale for depression. I could post both of them, and even look for similar articles for the others questionnaires, but I really think they are not really needed. What do you think Mattisse? --Garrondo (talk) 16:36, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes. A huge improvement over the 1979 study currently referenced.[1] However, the statement in the article should clarify its use in research and not only as a "screening tool", as it is under the section "Diagnosis" and so may be misleading to the general reader. The reference you propose is to a research study where it is used as an outcome measure.

This Major depression article does not explain that in the typical research methodology for drug efficacy studies, these rating scales are used as a primary outcome measure. Also, the article abstract cautions, "A limitation of the review is that none of the studies was based on a randomly selected sample from the general population. In addition, the rigor of the screening used to exclude individuals with psychopathology in most studies is unknown; thus, some of the controls may have had diagnosable depression, thereby elevating the mean scores in the presumptively healthy control group." So is this appropriate in the "Diagnosis" section? —Mattisse (Talk) 17:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Their aim is to look for cut-off points for the questionnaire: defining the healthy controls answers to the questionnaire a cut-off point to diagnose an abnormal response can be found, so of course it should be in diagnosis.As I said I believe that wikipedia is asking here more than any peer-revied journal, and the ref provided should be more than enough to point out that the quesionnaire is widely used.--Garrondo (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

If you are referring to 15101563, their "aim" was not to look for cut-off points for the questionnaire by defining a cut-off point in the healthy controls' answers to the questionnaire to diagnose an abnormal response. That was one of their methods in the study: to determine the normal range of values on the scale so they could evaluate the efficacy of antidepressant treatment. The purpose was never to "diagnosis". The only time diagnose is mentioned in the abstract is in referring to the methodological problems in the study: "In addition, the rigor of the screening used to exclude individuals with psychopathology in most studies is unknown; thus, some of the controls may have had diagnosable depression, thereby elevating the mean scores in the presumptively healthy control group."

In addition, see the MoS guideline in Manual of Style (medicine-related article) - Citing medical sources and the content guideline in Reliable sources (medicine-related article) Definitions. In the latter it states: "In general, Wikipedia's medical articles should be based upon published, reliable secondary sources whenever possible. Reliable primary sources can add greatly to a medical article, but must be used with care because of the potential for misuse. For that reason, edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge. Where primary sources are cited, they should be presented in a manner which hews closely to the interpretation given by the authors or by published, reliable secondary sources. Primary sources should not be cited in support of a conclusion which is not clearly adduced by the authors or by reliable secondary sources..." —Mattisse (Talk) 18:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Thaks for the non-asked for little speech...I have been writting medicine articles for two years, and I almost know MEDMOS word by word...Nevertheless Casliber has added a few refs that should fullfill your requirements regarding the questionnaires.--Garrondo (talk) 18:46, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment Tony noted above his concerns about this statement: "A depressive episode may also be triggered by a loss of religious faith." Tony specifies his concerns: "I think this is oddly prominent in the rather short lead para to the section 'Psychological', and the Journal of Religion and Health, although published by Springer, is hardly a mainstream source in the field. The article is from 36 years ago; is it relevant nowadays?"

This statement noted by Tony as being from a questionable source is still in the article. I am concerned also that many of the sources in this article similarly are very old and/or reference a single study. I am trying to correct some of them, where the sources are accessible, to clarify the meaning in the article in the context of the reference. —Mattisse (Talk) 14:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why a loss of religious faith would be any less depressing now than it was 36 years ago, at least in individuals for whom faith had been their primary source of meaning. I do wonder which is more often the cause and which more often the effect (e.g., I can picture something like, X --> MDD --> blame/doubt God --> lose religious faith), but if "lose religious faith --> MDD" is sourced, then it at least jives with what I'd call common sense or intuition. Cosmic Latte (talk) 15:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

The point is not what you or I think now, but rather that the reference to a statement given prominence in the section is from one questionable source, the Journal of Religion and Health, and is 36 years old. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like the journal is still taken reasonably seriously, e.g., [2], [3], [4]. In any event, my point was that there is no reason to assume that the veracity of the referenced finding has changed in the past 36 years. Questioning the finding on account of its age raises the question, "why?"--and I, for one, don't see a reason why the finding would be dated. And as it's worded now, "A depressive episode may also be related to a loss of religious faith," without implying cause or effect, and placed after other components of MDD and directly before a statement that cause and effect are unclear, I certainly don't think it's being given any undue prominence. Cosmic Latte (talk) 15:34, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I refer you to Tony's comment that the source is not mainstream in the field. The links you give are not reliable sources as to the mainstream importance of the journal. Further, the text in one of your links says: "The Journal of Religion and Health explores the most contemporary modes of religious thought with particular emphasis on their relevance to current medical and psychological research." Current medical and psychological research is not 36 years ago. In medically-related field, recency counts. References to such statements should be to recent review articles (within the last few years). Further discussion of this should move to the talk page. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:56, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

'Tis where I've moved it (Talk:Major_depressive_disorder#Religious_faith). Cosmic Latte (talk) 16:41, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

• Comment on sources - Primary sources should be used only with caution. See: the MoS guideline in Manual of Style (medicine-related article) - Citing medical sources and the content guideline in Reliable sources (medicine-related article) Definitions. —Mattisse (Talk) 18:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I generally try to use reviews etc., if ones are used, I do so with caution. I am not fussed if we remove the religion bit. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:27, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

O.K. Just in the Rating scales section:

"The Beck Depression Inventory is a widely used tool in the diagnosis of depression" - there is no source for this except Beck's original description of the 2nd edition: http://www.cps.nova.edu/~cpphelp/BDI2.html

This reference to the Hamilton Scale is probably a primary source, since its date is 1960: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14399272

This reference for the Montgomery-Åsberg Depression Rating Scale (MADRS) is a primary source (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/444788).

This reference to the PHQ-2 is a primary source ( and its for an alternative self-administration of it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10568646

I believe I have these straight, as the references are confusing. —Mattisse (Talk) 00:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, got extra refs for Beck, Hamilton and MADRS, working on others. There is quite a bit online. I just have to hop off the keyboard for a bit as things are busy where I am.Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:33, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I did a whole lot of WP:ITALICS corrections; unclear why italics were used throughout in ways that aren't set out at MoS. Also, the pp parameter on Harvnb's gives a pp. on page ranges (vs p on single pages). And, Diberri doesn't use a p. on journal citations, which are formatted as Volume(number):pages. I standardized it to the Diberri format on journals, and a p. or pp. on books. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:46, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Many were in hte context of Wikipedia:ITALICS#Words_as_words, where a word or combination of words was introduced and defined for the first time, so I thought it fell under the auspices of that eg when introducing cognitive beaviour therapy for first time. Again, I have not done this sort of article before here so am not too experienced and if you reckon it doesn't go under this then that is fine with me. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:20, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I left the "words as words" that conform with Wikipedia:ITALICS#Words_as_words; see the examples there. Introducing a term for the first time isn't the same as describing a term, as in: * Deuce means "two". The term panning is derived from panorama, which was coined in 1787. The most common letter in English is e. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:25, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment - The religion statement, which you said was O.K. to remove, has been added back with a primary source reference.[5] On the talk page, a review article on the subject was suggested: [6] This review article abstract states its findings: "The majority of well-conducted studies found that higher levels of religious involvement are positively associated with indicators of psychological well-being ... Usually the positive impact of religious involvement on mental health is more robust among people under stressful circumstances (the elderly, and those with disability and medical illness)."

I suggest using this review article as a source, and changing the wording of the statement to be in accord with what the source actually says. The abstract does not mention depression nor the effects of a loss of religious faith. —Mattisse (Talk) 15:54, 31 October 2008 (UTC)