Talk:Nizami Ganjavi

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The birthplace

The Question on the birthplace of the poet is not shined absolutely not in an article. I offer such section. In case within a week I shall not find the objections based on rules of Wikipedia, I insert it.

The birthplace of Nezami is disputed. Academics have named two Persian-speaking cities: Ganja (the basic version) or Qom in the central Iran, more precisely, small town Tafresh in region of Qom. Last version is based on verses itself Nezami in Iqbal-nameh. Verses approve, that he though " lost as a pearl in the sea of Ganja ", but occurs from mountain village near Tafresh. However, authenticity of these verses not all researchers recognize. Earlier the majority of researchers preferred a variant of Qom, nowadays - a variant of Ganja. There is an opinion, that from the Central Iran there was not itself Nezami, but his father.

Undoubtedly that Nezami has lived all or the most part of a life in the Ganja without quitting the place, there he has died and is buried.

Sfrandzi (talk) 14:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Sfrandzi, this sounds good to me. However, the English could be improved. Do you mind if I copyedit it? Khoikhoi 18:56, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

By the way, although non-English sources are still allowed, it is preferred at the English Wikipedia that if we have English sources that would basically say the same thing, we use them. Information here should be verifiable and since most people here cannot read Russian it is preferred to use English references when they are available. I think Minorsky, Meysami, and Bashiri will suffice anyways for the information that you are trying to add to the article. I'll copyedit the information soon. Khoikhoi 22:58, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, many of your references are Soviet-era sources. Perhaps it would be best if we stick to more modern references as well, as some of these appear to be controversial. Khoikhoi 04:24, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Bertels - the unique Soviet reference. Other Russian-speaking references - postSoviet Sfrandzi (talk) 11:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

• I've kept the modern English sources (Meysami and Minorsky).
• I've removed the old English sources for Britannica and put it in the "External links" section
• Most importantly, I didn't cite the USSR source, but used the info to explain the ambiguity of where Nezami was born. Regarding the ethnic background of the cities, it is unnecessary to state that they were "Persian-speaking" in this article. That info can go in the Ganja and Qom articles.

Khoikhoi 22:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Region

In section "region" many important facts for the characteristic of region and the poet are missed. I suggest to insert in the beginning of section:

The area in which there was Ganja, during that epoch named Arran; its urban population spoke mainly in the Persian language

References

Sfrandzi (talk) 23:04, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, and Thank you for your interest. I have been the most active person on this whole article and talkpage. Of course, what you said is correct in my opinion, and so I moved your sources (except the part about Nizami since this is the article devoted to it) to Ganjeh and Arran. Those sources were helpful for those two and of course the Oghuz Turkic nomads (their number not too large but they assimilated the local population) at the time had a nomadic lifestyle and were not really urban dwellers. Beside's Nizami's father-side ancestry would go back before the Seljuqs and either Qom/Ganja had an Iranian population before the Seljuqs. Culturally, we know his works are from Shahnameh(Iranian folklore) and not Turkic folklore. Of course I have no doubt he was Iranic but there will always be people who push for other theories, so best thing is to just simply leave it unmentioned. As you can see from the archives of the talkpage, it has been discussed. My summary is here: [1] , but I think eventually any lie will desist (it might take 100 years or whatever) and no one can separate Nizami from his works/culture/language. Afterall he considered himself the inheritor of Ferdowsi. Of course I made the concensus, since it is better to have something that everyone agrees. The current version is an okay concensus (not perfect) and so we decided to leave information about Nizami's father and etc. out of it (frankly I believe I made more concessions than due, since I can understand Persian and it is very easy to dismantle the very weird arguments I have heard). But anyhow, that is the current concensus. Thanks for understanding. I might be a way for a little bit, so I urge the users to keep the concensus version. Specially new users who just created account or who just edited the article for the first time. If not, we can just mention one sentence(no more since it is endless argument) :"Some claim his father was Iranic(Kurdish,Persian) while others claim he was Turkic, Jewish (read it somewhere recently!), Arabic(I think some Armenian author suggested it)" and then put one source/article for each, which I can put my article [2][3] and others can put their view. But just one line or so, since either way, we are discussing Nizami and also he was orphaned early and biographies are very limited on him. Thanks. --Nepaheshgar 23:21, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

That you write - not argument for the encyclopedia. You speak: there are people who think, that 2X2=7 and consequently leave unmentioned the multiplication table. Really, always be people who push for other theories. Not only in this area. One deny Darwin, others the Holocaust, the third speak, that Nezami were the Azeri poet. Human perversions are diverse. It, however, not an occasion to not mention historic facts (exclusively the facts!!!) which ascertain the academic sources. If "others" have so indisputable facts and so reliable sources - let they result them. The article from it only will win. If is not present - it is possible to create an article "Revisionist theories of ethnicity Nezami" and to send these people there. If I, within a week, shall not meet objections against my sources in essence - I insert a fragment. Sfrandzi (talk) 23:51, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi and thank you for your comments. I do not think the article says he was "Azeri poet". We know he wrote in Persian and the terminology "Azeri" would not have existed then (as an ethnic background or even language designation since the language was still unified Oghuz and not branched out to Azer), so to describe him as "Azeri poet" is not scientific (perhaps Azeri poet would be only due to the fact he is born in the country with that designation although Nizami uses Arran in his own poetry). But as you can see, the compromised version does not say he was "Azeri poet". The article simple leaves out speculations about Nizami's father, although Iranian background is much more likely on this. Anyhow I'll be off for a little bit, does anyone else have comments to make? --Nepaheshgar 12:01, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Unlike us, the reader can not know ethnic history of region in Middle Ages. It is not obliged its know. Moreover. It is not obliged to know and a modern ethnic situation in region. For the reader speaks, that Nezami was born in the Azerbaijan city, in region Azerbaijan and was reside under authority of princes of Azerbaijan. What should the reader think? The poet of 12 centuries who was born in Lyons and was reside under authority of kings of France - the Frenchman, even it wrote on-Latin. The poet who was born in Oxford and was reside under authority of English kings - an Englishman, even it wrote in French. Similarly: the Poet who was born in Ganja and was reside under authority of governors of Azerbaijan - Azeri Turk, even it wrote on-persian. Quite natural conclusion. The reader will specially not will investigate, that meant concepts of Azerbaijan, azeri language and azeri ethnos with reference to 12 century. Thus, article - simply tells lies. It named: "lie by means of preterition" Sfrandzi (talk) 16:09, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Looks like no one else gave you feedback. Well, as long as he is not Oghuzified, I have no problem with people of republic of Azerbaijan calling them one of their own. Since that would mean they also ackwoledge their Iranian heritage. As I said, I rather have the background of his father not be debated over. But if you insist on adding those sources, then to be fair, we should write one sentence giving the three different(Iranic, Turkic, Iranianized Arab) views (with external articles). The reason I say to be fair, is that others were involved in the past in the article and we decided not to mention this. But if we are to mention it, then it is fair I believe to mention one source for each view. So from an unbiased point of view, I guess we can mention all three views in one sentence and then let the reader judge. But it is better to simply just keep out. The current version where we mention nothing about father's background has been stable, so I rather we just keep it. --Nepaheshgar 00:03, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Origin of Nezami - a question not political, but scientific. It not a subject of political dispute between Persians and Turks. It at all a subject of dispute in a science. The Azerbaijan, turkish, Iranian scientists in this question are not reliable sources because reliable sources by rules should be impartial and are not connected with one party of the non-scientific conflict. I have resulted the neutral academic sources showing as the world science concerns to a question. have resulted the neutral sources showing as the world science concerns to a question. If opponents have same neutral sources, not Iranian, not turkish, not Armenian and not official Soviet (in official Soviet editions everything, concerning Azerbaijan, it was written in the Azerbaijan) - let they result them. If is not present - it is possible to create an article (or section) " Revisionist theories of origin of Nezami " or " dispute about origin of Nezami " and there to arrange a boxing ring. These are the general reasons. Particularly, I do not write: Nezami there was a Persian" or "Nezami there was a Turk ". I write, that in region the urban population spoke on-Persian. If opponents can oppose with statements of the same reliable sources - well. If is not present - I at all do not understand, in what a problem. We here result opinions of scientists or we are engaged political correctness? Really, if Germany denied the Holocaust, it too should leave unmentioned? Sfrandzi (talk) 22:37, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Eventually, as a last resort, nothing prevents to write: "in opinion of a world science so, however scientists of Azerbaijan consider so" Sfrandzi (talk) 22:46, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

P.P.S. Notice, I and have not met the objections based on rules of Wikipedia - and consequently I consider myself have the right to not accept your objections. If here there was a scientific problem - it should be not ignored, and on the contrary to shine from different directions. But you recognize, that the scientific problem is not present. And is - impudent and aggressive nationalist falsification. But presence of nationalist falsifications should not stir to that the facts admited by a world science were informed. Sfrandzi (talk) 23:13, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how any of the stuff you added is relevant to Nezami's life. It just appears to be information about the city of Ganja. Why can't we that info to Ganja, Azerbaijan instead? Sfrandzi, when you have the time, please check out the talk page archives. There has been much debate on whether to label Nezami a "Persian" or an "Azeri". The eventual compromise was to say that he is the "greatest romantic epic poet in Persian literature", see Britannica for example. This was at least the result of the long-standing compromise on this page. Khoikhoi 04:43, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

????

What is it and the reason? Rantik (talk) 09:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Read the Archives[4][5][6][7]. This is consensus version which we agreed to take out nationalists link and sites. Somehow strange that a user creates accounts and starts disrupting a two+ year old consensus version. The article you brought already has been discussed in the talkpage and lots of the sources where not correct(read archives), but mainly the link itself is not suited for Wikipedia as it brings out a battle ground mentality by is title. But anyhow, there are different views like this here: [8], but we have decided to leave the article free of the sort of links. --Nepaheshgar 12:41, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Ref regarding Shirin

I wanted to look up the source regaring the claim that some authors considered Shirin to be "Caucasian Albanian" but I couldn't find anything on M.Shaginyan, “Studies/sketches about Nizami”, 1955/1981. The editor who added the source has been banned so i'm wondering if anyone else can provide some information or an exact quote, page number etc.? I'm guessing it's a Soviet publication in Russian based on the date and the authors name.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 03:44, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Adil and I made a consensus on the article a while back, although that is a point I should have taken up more. Although at the time I was not aware that Encyclopedia of Islam, Britannica as well more than one article in Iranica[9] consider Shirin to be an Armenian. Anyhow, I'll try to contact him or another user (GM who was semi-involved) to see if they can provide page number and the pertaining info. Anyhow, just for the record on the talk page, I don't agree with Caucasian Albanian since Alisher Navai and Vahshi Bafqi (two poets imitating Nizami) also think of Shirin as Armenian and they were influenced by them. But this is wikipedia which no one owns and to keep the article calm, I agreed to incorporate the differing opinions. Although I consider Western sources superior as well as classical sources on Shirin (like Navai, Bafqi) better than USSR sources. I might bring the issue up in a few years, once hopefully there is peace. Till then, proper referencing is provided within a few months or sooner. --Nepaheshgar 13:39, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I got word that I will have the source sometimes next week. Thanks. --Nepaheshgar 13:39, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Nepaheshgar. I look forward to it.-- Ευπάτωρ ^Talk!! 17:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I received the sources and I also did some research. It seems the new research might show the historical Shirin was different than the mythical one of poetry [10] and might not be from the Caucus but from Khuzestan. Anyhow for Nizami it was from the Caucus, so perhaps if there is an article on Shirin in the future, this can be mentioned. --Nepaheshgar 14:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Nizami Gandjavi was an Azerbaijannian. He was born in Gandja (where I am fr.) and lived all his life there, some sources say that his mother was kurdish, but it is not real. both of his parents were Azerbaijanian. He wrote in persian language but thats coz in 11th centure the main language in litruature was persian language like before it was arabic or latin languages.

Azerbaijan is independent country and free natian. We r not persians or russians or any other nation. So Nizami Gandjavi who came fr Azerbaijanian family and lived all his life in Gandja bus me considered like Azerbaijanian write.

I think several countries can be proud of Nizami and someone who wrote about love should not a tool for fighting amongst people and countries. These were the wordings agreed upon and it is compromise version which has been stable for a year and half. Since then I have found Diakonov and many other sources and have done a detailed study on Nizami and I think the current version is the best. But there was no country by the name of Azerbaijan then. That is "Azerbaijanian" was not used as a ethnic term during the time of Nizami Ganjavi (it may be used as regional designation today) and so I assume you mean he was a Oghuz Turk writer (which he was not). I politely disagree and believe there is no evidence for this. Nizami uses Aran actually and he pronounced Azerbaijan like a Persian Adharabaadegaan. Nizami's mother was Kurdish and his father's ancestry goes back to the Shaddadid era. Some sources say Qom. For example a four hundred year source mentions his father being from Qom while Nizami was born in Ganja. That is actually not the same as the two verses in some verions Eskandarnama which he claims to be from Tafresh near Qom. That is a biography of him mentions Qom as his fathers and Nizami being born in Ganja which is not exactly the same as two verses which he claims to be from Qom. This might make some sense in my opinion based on the fact that after being orphaned early, Nizami Ganjavi was raised by his Kurdish uncle and not as traditionally by his father side. So his father might have very well be an immigrant from the area.

Either way his fathers ancestry pre-dates the Seljuq take-over of Ganja. And we can see the family is urban while he points to nomadic lifestyle amongst Turks. Anyhow Nizami was orphaned early and raised with his Kurdish uncle. That is he was raised in a Iranic environment. What is important is culture. And his stories are based on Shahnameh and Haft Paykar, Sekandarnama, Khusraw o Shirin all have to do with pre-Islamic and Islamic Persian folklore and not Oghuz folklore (like Dede Qorqud). Even Lili o Majnoon which is originally an Arab based story was already popular in Persian poetry (Rudaki mentions it and so does Kashf-al-Mahjub). He not only wrote in the Persian language but he voluntarily chose Persian folklore and stories. That is the Haft Paykar and Khusraw o Shirin, unlike Lili o Majnoon were chosen voluntarily by Nizami Ganjavi. These are Sassanid based stories and give much valuable information on pre-Islamic Iran. He even took hit from a friend for rekindling the stories of Zoroastrians. So culturally he was not a Turk and after-all he was raised by a Kurdish maternal uncle.

About Kurdish mother lineage (hence his maternal uncle who raised as well while he was orphaned early from his father), here are some sources. Valadimir Minorsky writes(V. Minorsky, Studies in Caucasian history, Cambridge University Press, 1957. pg 34):

“The author of the collection of documents relating to Arran Mas’ud b. Namdar (c. 1100) claims Kurdish nationality. The mother of the poet Nizami of Ganja was Kurdish (see autobiographical digression in the introduction of Layli wa Majnun). In the 16th century there wasa group of 24 septs of Kurds in Qarabagh, see Sharaf-nama, I, 323. Even now the Kurds of the USSR are chiefly grouped south of Ganja. Many place-names composed with Kurd are found on both banks of the Kur”

Also Vladimir Minorsky writes(C. H. Darab, Mlakhzanol Asrar, 1945, pp. 55-61 (reviewed by Minorsky, BSOAS., 1948, xii/2, 441-5)):

"Whether Nizami --as born in Qom or in Ganja is not quite clear. The verse (quoted on p. 14) : " I am lost as a pearl in the sea of Ganja, yet I am from the Qohestan of the city of Qom ", does not expressly mean that he was born in Qom. On the other hand, Nizami's mother was of Kurdish origin, and this might point to Ganja where the Kurdish dynasty of Shaddad ruled down to AH. 468 ; even now Kurds are found to the south of Ganja."

Professor Julie Scott Meysami also states the same: (Nizami Ganjavi, A. The Haft Paykar: A Medieval Persian Romance. Translated with introduction and notes by Julie Scott Meisami. Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press, 1995.)

“His father, who had migrated to Ganja from Qom in north central Iran, may have been a civil cervant; his mother was a daughter of a Kurdish chieftain; having lost both parents early in his life, Nizâmî was brought up by an uncle. He was married three times, and in his poems laments the death of each of his wives, as well as proffering advice to his son Muhammad.“

Jan Rypka (Rypka, Jan. ‘Poets and Prose Writers of the Late Saljuq and Mongol Periods’, in The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 5, The Saljuq and Mongol Periods, ed., Published January 1968. pg 578) :

“Little is known of his life, the only source being his own works, which in many cases provided no reliable information. We can only deduce that he was born between 535 and 540 (1140-46) and this his background was urban. Modern Azarbaijan is exceedingly proud of its world famous son and insists that he was not just a native of the region, but that he came from its own Turkic stock. At all events his mother was of Iranian origin, the poet himself calling her Ra’isa and describing her as Kurdish.”

Anyhow Nizami Ganjavi defines himself by his work, he says I am nothing but these verses. And in Wikipedia this is a compromise version (for example Persian language poet can be changed to Persian poet based on google book or based on Britannica we can say Nizami is widely enjoyed in Persian speaking countries). So I think a shared approach which this compromise version has and is stable is the best. --Nepaheshgar 14:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

minor change

Just a correction. Nizami uses the form : "Atabak" rather than "Atabeg" in his poetry. Example: اتابک را بگوید کای جهانگیر Although it is hard to tell since K and G are close. Also the etymology would generally be Turkic (the term being used from Syria all the way to Persian Gulf and etc) rather than Azerbaijani since Azerbaijani-Turkish was not separate from other Oghuz related dialects when the word actually developed (Beg actually being possibly Sogdian loanword). But there is no need to put etymologies of various words (Darband, Azerbaijan(Nizami uses Adharābādegān which is how it is writen in the Shahnameh and older Persian manuscripts), Khusraw, Mahin Banu, Parviz, Hormozd, Shirin, Bahram, Shirvanshah, Ganja, Bahram Gur, and Yazdegerd etc.) unless it is a title of one of his works or something. Titles are treated in their own related articles. --Nepaheshgar 14:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

removed

I removed the repeated statement: Often referred to by the honorific Hakim "the Sage", Nezami is both a learned poet and master of a lyrical and sensuous style. His poems show that not only was he fully acquainted with Arabic and Persian literature and with oral and written popular and local traditions, but was also familiar with such diverse fields as mathematics, geometry, astronomy and astrology, alchemy, medicine, Koranic exegesis, Islamic theology and law, history, ethnics, philosophy and esoteric thought, music and the visual arts.

Since it was repeated twice and it is under the Education section. --Nepaheshgar 14:39, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't get

I don't get it why nobody born from azerbaijan can not be considered an azeri.f.e Shah ismail khatai somebody wrote that he has armenian mother or kurdish background samething with Nizami POEPLE HE WAS AN AZERI with AZERI background not kurdish and not armenian i don't understand why all pople hate so much azeris and can't accept that azeris could do such beautiful works SHAME. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.132.102.42 (talk) 16:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

HI, I wouldn't take these things personally. These are discussions on history. And it is obvious that people of the same civilization when divided into separate countries will think of the relics of the old civilization they all had a share in as part of their own. Firstly whoever hates Azeris or any other group in the region is an idiot! Second the Azerbaijani Turkish language has produced beautiful works and masterpieces including Fizuli, Shahriyar and Nasimi. On the Safavids, they were turcophones since 1501 but their origin is murky. I consider them a classical Iranian dynasty who combined both Turkomen tribal elements and Iranic elements. I don't think anyone wrote they had Armenian background but Kurdish background for Safavids is mentioned by good deal of scholars and I believe they were not of Oghuz origin from their paternal line [11]. Anyhow Safavids culturally were classical Azeri and of course an Iranian dynasty since they called their land Iran. You can think of it this way. Shahriyar was an Iranian Azeri and an Azeri poet. But his ancestry is actually Seyyed going back to the prophet Muhammad. So culture and origin may differ. Nizami Ganjavi on the other hand belongs to Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kurdistan (areas which I consider part of the Iranian civilization). In my opinion Azeris have Iranian civilization as well and so they also share in the heritage of Nizami Ganjavi. His motherline was Kurdish for sure and about his father, I firmly believe it was Iranic while others might have a different opinion. Culturally though there is no doubt about the fact that he belongs to the civilization which encompasses the regions I mentioned. Recently, I even read someone proposed Arabic or whatever which I believe was way of the base. Anyhow, he was orphaned very early and lived with his maternal uncle. So his civilization that he belongs has to do with his own culture and language he created his masterpieces in. That is why the article is a compromised version: [12]. Outside of Wikipedia though, you are free to do your own research like I have [13][14] and that is why a compromised version works for Wikipedia. Also disagreeing about Nizami Ganjavi (I do not think his ancestors were Oghuz Turkomens but they were Iranian speaking) does not mean that he does not belong to Azerbaijan as well the countries I mentioned. Nizami in my opinion belongs to the greater Iranian civilization which the Azerbaijan republic was part of. Others may differ, so that is why this is a compromised version that has stuck. In the end he belongs to Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Kurdistan. Hopefully once the nationalistic fervor tones down in the republic of Azerbaijan (due to the recent war it is fairly high) and also there is change in the political climate of Iran, Iranian and Azerbaijani republic scholars will gather together and agree that Nizami Ganjavi is a shared regional heritage. Overall there is no doubt that Azerbaijani-Turkish language has also produced great poets like Fizuli, Shahriyar, Nasimi, Akhundzadeh and many others. --Nepaheshgar 14:02, 14 June 2008 (UTC) --Nepaheshgar 04:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

"I don't get it why nobody born from azerbaijan can not be considered an azeri"
As an Iranian Azeri , I think that is not good for Azerbaijan and Azeri people to consider themselves separate from the cultural entity that is named Iran.In broader sense almost any Iranian have an Azeri root somewhere in his ancestry or he/she is Azeri himself now. Then why we only consider someone like Shariyar as Azeri , and not some one like Iraj Mirza, Parvin E'tesami and many many others ?--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:57, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree. --Nepaheshgar 14:39, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Name changes

I've tried to standardize the names of his poems in this article. It was using different spellings and transliterations:

• Haft Peykar → Haft Paykar (73 vs. 478 on Google Books)
• Eskandarname → Eskandar Nama (18 vs. (13; this one was a toss-up)
• Khusraw o Shirin, Khosrow and Shirin → Chosroes and Shirin

I'm not totally sure if any of these were the correct changes, so please feel free to correct me. We should go based on which spelling is the most common The last one I was particularly unsure about, because one will note that Chosroes redirects to Khosrau. Perhaps we should rename the article to Khosrow and Shirin, as it gets the most hits on Google Books in comparison to Khusraw o Shirin and "Chosroes and Shirin." As for Eskandarname/Eskandar Nama, perhaps the former was actually the better title. Khoikhoi 06:08, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Two more:

• Makhzanol - Asrar (53) → Makhzan al-Asrar (264)
• Layli o Majnun (7), "Layli and Majnun" (61) → "Layla and Majnun" (481)

Khoikhoi 06:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Although usually I would go with the Iranica, Britannica and Enyclopedia of Islam transliteration, those are good. Britannica says[15]:"Makhzan al-asrār (The Treasury of Mysteries), the second the romantic epic Khosrow o-Shīrīn (“Khosrow and Shīrīn”). The third is his rendition of a well-known story in Islāmic folklore, Leyli o-Mejnūn (The Story of Leyla and Majnun). The fourth poem, Haft paykar (The Seven Beauties), is considered his masterwork. The final poem in the pentalogy is the Sikandar or Eskandar-nāmeh (“Book of Alexander the Great”; Eng. trans. of part I, The Sikander Nama), a philosophical portrait of Alexander." --Nepaheshgar 11:57, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

We can go with Britannica then. I just wanted to make sure that one spelling for his works are used throughout the article, instead of a variety of different spellings, as it gets confusing. As for Chosroes and Shirin, how about someone propose a move to Khosrow and Shirin on the talk page there, and if no one objects move the page? I don't think WP:RM would be necessary in this case anyways. Khoikhoi 20:16, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The spelling you chose are fine for the four other works. For Chosroes and Shirin, I guess Khosrow and Shirin is better. Just be WP:BOLD. --Nepaheshgar 20:48, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. My only other question is whether we should use pronunciation marks such as "Eskandar-nāmeh" instead of "Eskandar-nameh." But I think for now all the spellings of his poems have been standardized. Khoikhoi 22:20, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I put the picture of museum with that section .--Nepaheshgar (talk) 21:11, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

After Baku87's edit, I removed the musuem and created its own article per my comments here:[16]. Since calling Nezami's work anything other than Persian literature is wrong and he himself calls it Persial Pearl and Nazm-e-Dari (Persian Poetry), and only wrote in Persian. So any other label is simply nationalistic or usage of modern geography for 12th century Ganja of Arran. Another option is to write a sentence or two about the differing viewpoints on Nezami's father and then have external links giving the Iranian viewpoint and Turkic viewpoint (note Azerbaijani at the time of Nezami was not formed [thttp://gumilevica.kulichki.com/HE2/he2510.htm]. This will also mean minor changes about the sentence on Shirin, since she was Armenian for Nezami and other Persian poets, and Caucasian Albanian is unsound, although the historical Shirin of the Sassanids was Aramean. Britannica, Iranica, Encyclopedia of Islam also mention Persian literature, and 100% he was at least half Iranic and the other half has a lot of politicization but I believe a detail analysis also shows Iranic [17].--Nepaheshgar (talk) 22:29, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

a better picture for infobox

there is another picture in the wikimedia that i think is more suitable for infobox.

File:Nizomi Ganjavi.jpg

. Bbadree (talk) 21:29, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you just remove the inscription from the picture? The picture itself is good. Tājik (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

I think the portrait got changed already. Possibly someone should remove the Cyrilic/Latin inscription. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 16:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Nezami ye Ganjavi

The title of the article should be moved to the full name of the person that is Nezami ye Ganjavi or Nezami Ganjavi. Baku87 (talk) 22:21, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually his full name is Nezam al-Din Iyas. Ganjavi is his designation because he lived most if not all of his life in Ganja. But I don't have a problem with Nezami Ganjavi.

On Musuems, they have their own article in Wikipedia. Let me explain my rational and I hope you understand. This a compromise article, and nationalistic viewpoints are not allowed. Iranian and Azeri users do not have much conflict except a few articles like Safavids and Nezami Ganjavi and name of Azerbaijan, which I have been involved in and have found compromises in although some of them are somewhat shaky (like Safavids) and probably someone in the future will fix it.. See three pages of archives on Nezami. Musuem in Baku has nothing to do with the lifetime of Nezami Ganjavi or biography of him or etc at his own time. It is a 20th century development. Someone that wrote all of his work in Persian is naturally part of Persian literature. Unless you want criticism for the term "Azerbaijani literature" which did not exist at the time of Nezami, there is no reason to insert controversial stuff. Even Azerbaijani Turkic language and ethnicity was not yet formed at the time of Nezami (no insult intended) but this is a historical viewpoint[18]. For example: "The attempt to annex an important part of Persian literature and to transform it into Azerbaidzhani literature can be best exemplified by the way in which the memory of the great Persian poet Nizami (1141-1203) is exploited in the Soviet Union. " (Walter Kolarz., Russia and her Colonies. London: George Philip. I952.). Or "Indeed, the 1934 Congress of Soviet Writers, which in many ways inaugurated high Stalinism as a cultural paradigm, was a curiously solemn parade of old-fashioned romantic nationalisms. The Azerbaijani delegate insisted that the Persian poet Nizami was actually a classic of Azerbaijani literature because he was a “Turk from Giandzha”"(Slezkine, Yuri. “The Soviet Union as a Communal Apartment.”in Stalinism: New Directions. Ed. Sheila Fitzpatrick, Routledge, New York, 2000. pages 330-335). Or Victor A. Shnirelman: "In particular, in 1938, Nizami in connection with his 800-year anniversary was declared a genius(marvelous) Azerbaijani poet (History, 1939. Pp 88-91). In fact, he was a Persian poet, which is not surprising, because the urban population in those years was Persian (Dyakonov, 1995. page. 731). At one time it was recognized by all Encyclopedic Dictionaries of published in Russia, and only the Big Soviet Encyclopedia for the first time in 1939, announced Nizami as a "Great Azerbaijani poet (Sr. Brockhaus and Efron, 1897. page. 58; Garnet, 1917. page. 195 ; BSE, 1939. p. 94)."(Ср. Брокгауз и Ефрон, 1897. С. 58; Гранат, 1917. С. 195; БСЭ, 1939. С. 94). Three perfectly acceptable source meeting verifiable criterion of Wikipedia, specially Shnirlemans book has been quoted a lot by various users and the book is academic and quotes also academics such as a Diakonov. I rather not have such stuff, so I created its own article for Museum after you changed its name. We can say that there is a museum build in his name in Baku as an acceptable compromise and then you can link it to the article. He wrote in Persian and so is rightfully part of Persian literature. Any other title, is a politicization, trying to erase Persian heritage (which cannot be done of course in the case of Nezami since the poet is so tied to the language and translation of him can never do justice, specially Nezami, his genius is in the way he puts the verses together and is very tied to the language) and I rather not discuss politicization of Nezami in this article, although I have perfectly valid sources to discuss it. One of them Tamazshivili is 20 pages long and English translated and a Tajik friend translated it. Sure there are street names, statues and etc., in the name of Nezami in Iran and many in the republic of Azerbaijan but this is about the biography of the poet and the article follows Encyclopedia format (see Britannica or Encylopedia of Islam or etc). There are statues and streets after George Washington, but you do not find them in Encyclopedias. The Mausoleum is a different issue and I restored it. But if you revert again, I will have no choice to put valid sources such as these I mentioned. Although again I am not a person looking for confrontation, but the sources I have are all valid and I would fit them in one sentence or two at most. Still I would read the archive again. We took time not to discuss his father's background, but if you want to push a POV then okay I will have to discuss it with one or two sentences (keep it minimal) and mention at least there is a controversy and politicization in another sentence. And it is obvious USSR sources are politicized as I have many documents with this regard. Even the "Caucasian Albanian" with regards to Shirin will be removed and firmly changed to Armenian based on Iranica, Britannica, Encyclopedia of Islam and western sources, since a book by winner of lenin award from USSR from 1955 is not really weighty and she gives a mixed viewpoint (not a firm one). Thanks for understanding, but Nezami is universally acknowledged as Persian literature since he himself states that he is writing Persian verses, he is creating Persian pearls and all of his work is in Persian. Anything to challenge this is political attempt to erase Iranian heritage and this has been the case unfortunately with some individuals (note I do not blame the general public) of the republic of Azerbaijan trying to Turkify Babak, Medes, Javanshir, Nezami, Zoroaster and Iranian heritage, where-as all these figures were Iranic. --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:28, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Note that I have countless time r.v.'ed other users or pro-Iran users (Sfrandzi above whom I agree with but undid his effort due to a stable article) as well, in order to maintain a stable article, so don't think I am just reverting you. But actually if you insist to insert the name of the museum, then I will also insert facts about politicization of Nezami from variety of sources, because the name of the museum seems to suggest that Nezami Ganjavi belongs to non-Persian literature. Also note, we put Azerbaijan first in the list of countries, but alphabetically ordering would be Afghanistan as Britannica also states clearly Nezami is widely popular in Persian speaking lands and of course what I mentioned about the Armenian Shirin (to Nezami and countless other poets who follow him although in Sassanid era, she is considered Aramean). --Nepaheshgar (talk) 00:54, 23 February 2009 (UTC)