Talk:Muhammad ibn al-Qasim

Please remove picture, pure fantasy, not historical. 132.230.118.123 15:24, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I second that, please remove this picture as it is not historical whatsoever.

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References to my edit:

The reason why I listed the sources here is, for the reason that the article has been edited many times and biased information has been inserted into it and I see this as a major problem especially when the information is Anti-Semitic and Islamaphobic in nature.

My REFERENCES: 1. The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham 2. The peoples of Pakistan, By Yu. V. Gankovsky 3. Arab-o-Hind ke Talluqat, By Sulaiman Nadvi. 4. The Gazetteer of Pakistan: The Province of Sind, edited by T.H. Sorly 5. Gazetteer of the Province of Sind, compiled by E.H. Aitkin 6. Ancient Trade in Pakistan, By Sir Mortimer Wheeler, Pakistan Quarterly, Vol VII #1957 7. Sindhj Culture, By U.T. Thakkur. 8. Tareekh-Sind, By Manlana Syed Abu Zafar Nadvi. 9. An Advanced History of India, Part II, By R.C. Majumdar, H.C. Roychandra and Kalikinkar Ditta 10. The Land of five rivers and Sind, By David Ross 11. Arab~o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Suiaiman Nadvi; 12. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part I, By Ijaaul Haq Quddusi. 13. Dr. Mohammad Ishaque in Journal of Pakistan Historical Society Vol 3 Part1 14. A Study of History, Vol VII, By Arnold Toynbee. 15. Ibid. 16. Sind: A General Introduction, By M.T. Lambrick. 17. A greater portion of the area now called Baluchistan was then known as Makran. The word Baluchistan came into vogue much later. 18. Journal of Pakistan, Historical Society, Vol.111, Part 1 19. Tauzeehat-e-Tareekh-e-Masoomi. 20. Muslim Community of the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent, by Dr. I.H Qureshi 21. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, by Aijazul Haq Quddusi 22. The Making of India, By Dr. Abdulla Yusuf Ali. 23. Jaunat-us-Sind, By Maulai Shaidai. 24. Imperial Gazetteer of India. 25. Ibid. 26. Indian Muslims, By Prof. M. Mujeeb. 27. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, By Aijazul Haq Quddusi. 28. The preaching of Islam by Sir Thomas Arnold 29. Shias of India, By John Norman Hollister. 30. Ibid. 31. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulaiman Nadvi 32. Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakut. 33. Tareekh-e-Sind, By Maulana Abu Zafar Nadvi. 34. The Peoples of Pakistan, By. Yu. V. Gankovsky. 35. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulairnan Nadvi.

--Street Scholar 12:40, 13 October 2005 (UTC)

Going to agree with 128.xxx.xxx

You did conveniently left out information on the massacres of Hindus and non-Muslims alike in this article, all due to your pro-Islam bias. --Dangerous-Boy 06:14, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm going to jump in and agree that the article needs some big-time work and revision as it shows too much reverence of a historical figure. Words like "great" are a matter of opinion. With that said, the emphasis upon the Hindu ruling class seems troubling as the majority were still Buddhist at that time. That would be the non-Muslims. And for the record I'm an atheist. I think massacres should be mentioned and possibly mentioned in every article that discusses conquest and empire. Conversely, holding articles that deal with Islamic figures to a higher standard than say the Mauryans who killed plenty of people to forge an empire isn't exactly my idea of parity either. Tombseye 09:58, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

At least it's acknowledge that Asoka killed a crapload of people. The Bin Qasim article was denying this. --Dangerous-Boy 20:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Here's the thing though, the section on Ashoka explains the CONTEXT of the massacre of Kalinga for example. Bin Qasim's main resistance came from the Hindu ruling class, while his main support came from the Buddhist masses. He did come there as a conqueror and the context is important as we need to realize that he isn't killing them just for not being Muslim, but for being part of the main threat to his objectives. In addition, there are accounts of golden statues being melted down as well of their ENEMIES. Let's keep this in mind before promoting the false view that Muslims forced conversion as that rarely happened. By rarely I don't mean to say it was a freak occurence, but most of the time Muslim Arabs were not keen upon sharing power and if you were a Muslim you were supposed to be technically an equal. This is why some Hindu rulers at various times in India convert to Islam. Not because there was a sword aimed at their heads, but because they want to remain in the upper echelons of power. With context, Bin Qasim's actions aren't that different from the various conquerors of the past and even the present. Tombseye 22:36, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

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Not going to agree with you

There was no massacre which bit of that don't you guys understand. Look at my sources, where I got the information from I challenge anyone from wiki to bring non-biased information about massacres committed by bin-qasim. This is so illogical its not even worth discussion, Bin Qasim had non Muslim the Jatt of the time join forces with him to over throw their oppressor leaders and the Jatt at the time were yes you guessed it non-Muslim. So how can the Hindu claim of Bin Qasim of a mass murderer be correct, Hindus relay of mythological texts, look at the Vedas they are based on mythological text to. I can tell you this no that there was no massacre of non Muslim, the only killing that had taken place was on the battle field, and then he was fighting against an army. He only had 6,000 Syrian tribes men. It was the non Muslims who helped him conquer the region. So please get your facts straight before you make ludicrous claims that there was a genocide going on.

--Street Scholar 11:45, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, I'm not agreeing with you. There's a link to the claims. --Dangerous-Boy 17:24, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure why everyone cares so much about a pretty obscure historical figure. It seems like the issue is Islam is being put on trial here. I suggest first going through the article and adding

Big problem with those links you provided. They are all from Indian sites and their goals seem to be include doing something about "alien cultures" permeating India. You need something that is written by academic and neutral scholars (and they can be Indian as that is not an issue unless they wear their nationalism on their sleeves) who aren't writing with an agenda that seems to be clearly about demonizing invaders they don't like (Muslims), while the Indo-Aryans are okay by them. The criticism of Bin Qasim seems to lack any context other than making him seem worse than his adversaries. For example, is it any worse that the jizya prompted many people to convert than the persecution Buddhists faced in India following Ashoka? It's all one-sided and within the context of this Indic civilization thing that is frankly something from the 20th century. Tombseye 23:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Section headings

and then adding some

Sub-headings

I can't even finish the article cause it's one long string of nonsense. Then if there's a dispute about something historical, provide as many book references as possible, quoting the book is best. Web references are not great, because I can make a website right now that says Bin Qasim was a transvestite who dressed up monkeys in pink dresses.

Another point, if Islam is on trial, is that the Umayyad dynasty is considered by modern Muslims to be a corrupt empire that stole the caliphate and killed the last of the four rightly guided caliphs. They seiged Mecca and damaged the Kaaba. They are not considered good Muslim rulers by hardly anybody, so if they do have a bad record then it doesn't reflect on the teachings of Islamic warfare, which resembles the Geneva Convention. Cuñado - Talk 17:38, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Source to this claim:

" Qasim demolished many temples, shattered "idolatorous" artwork and killed many people in his battles. After the violence, he attempted to establish law and order in the newly-conquered territory through the imposition of Islamic Shariah laws. He also sought control through systematic persecution of Hindus. Qasim wrote an account of such experiences:

O my cousin; I received your life inspiring letter. I was much pleased and overjoyed when it reached me. The events were recounted in an excellent and beautiful style, and I learnt that the ways and rules you follow are conformable to the Law. Except that you give protection to all, great and small alike, and make no difference between enemy and friend. God says, 'Give no quarter to Infidels, but cut their throats." "Then know that this is the command of the great God. You should not be too ready to grant protection, because it will prolong your work. After this, give no quarter to any enemy except to those who are of rank. This is a worthy resolve, and want of dignity will not be imputed to you. Peace be with you. [1] "

Until I see some historical records of references from books, I am removing this quote as it seems like bullshit. Firstly lets look at this in context who was Bin-Qasim writing this letter to? which cousin? there are no documents or suggestions that this was actually said. Also about Hindu temples being 'shattered' also has no reference. Not even in India today, many people have been an killed and died a result of this. Hindu terrorists had attacked Muslims/Sikhs and other minorities many times on such false claims. There is not even one shred of evidence to suggest Hindu temples were destroyed. Dangerous-boy, is clearly putting false information into the article. Like this quote, the article is about bin qasim not so random Hindu mythological massacre.

--Street Scholar 18:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The Chachnamah (Chachnama) is the source of this quotation. English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg. Delhi Reprint, 1979. --Kefalonia 12:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Comes straight from the Islamic conquest of South Asia. Don't understand why you worship these Arab conquers so much. They raped your grandmothers and killed your grandfathers. --Dangerous-Boy 01:13, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Oh please stop it, their was no such thing going on. Although I don't deny there may have been some secluded incidents I couldn't say. However, on the whole everyone was treated pretty fairly. If it wasn't for the Arabs and Muslims India wouldn't be what it is today. It's funny how the ones that messed up India hardly ever get a mention i.e the British. By the way dude, most Pakistanis are direct decenints of these Arabs. Most Punjabi Pakistans are Aryan, and Ottoman decentens, and other majorites are Pashtuns.

--Street Scholar 13:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Looking at your nose, you sure might be but you're an exception. --Dangerous-Boy 11:08, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I see you like looking at guys, so are you the local Hindu gay around your block?

side note: Well Hindu girls seem to like my nose as seen as though I've humped a few an I am dating one now.

--Street Scholar 11:29, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Well, your nose looks jewish and you claim arab descent. Just stating the obvious. Very of mature of you to make such comments.

side note: you could be humping pigs for all I know. I couldn't care what you do with your life.

--Dangerous-Boy 23:48, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

I see you're not only racist you're also anti-Semitic and xenophobic - Anything else I missed out?

--Street Scholar 20:11, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I like Jews. They're cool. --Dangerous-Boy 01:16, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, just to clarify a few things here for both Street Scholar and Dangerous Boy. The Arabs actually didn't go past Sind. Turks, Afghans, and Iranians (of various types including Tajiks) were responsible for the conquest of South Asia. Next, it's clear that you guys are both coming from an overly nationalist point of view regarding religion. Muslim conquests sometimes involved rape and pillage, but this also happened during all of the Indian civilizations and various invaders such as the Huns, Scythians, Aryans etc. In fact, the Arabs did this to each other as did the Mongols, Romans, etc. It's how things were back then and even how things are today at times (such as the recent conflicts in Rwanda, Sudan, Yugoslavia etc.). Most Pakistanis are not descendents of Arabs Street Scholar. Go to the Pashtun page for example and you'll see 3 sources on genetic testing done in Pakistan that shows the two main contributions are South Asian (of various types) and West Asian of the Iranian type, not Semitic Arab. Granted Indians and Iranians are somewhat divergent, but the Iranians aren't Arabs either. The Arab connection is mostly one of claims as religious people seek to be closer to the founders and this goes for Arabic-speakers most of whom are probably not related to Muhammad as they might believe. Arabs are a linguistic group at any rate and even people such as Egyptians are largely of native Egyptian ancestry. Genetic tests don't lie. Pakistanis are part-Aryan of both the Indo-Aryan and Iranian branches who merged with indigenous peoples and thus the country is a crossroads between the Iranic and Indic worlds. Pashtuns, who are mostly not Indian as they are Afghans, are (including Afghan refugees) 20% of the population at the most, while there are some Punjabis and Sindhis who claim descent from them which may be quite accurate. Also, 1/5 of Sindhis show traces of Baloch ancestry. Lastly, Muhammad bin Qasim was a pretty minor figure historically. He's been made into a demon in India and a saint in Pakistan when in reality he was neither. He was part of the early Arab expansionism that was conducted to keep the warlike Arabs from fighting each other. It had little to do with religion and a lot to do with social conditions and tribal behavior. Bin Qasim is seen by Muslims in Pakistan as the catalyst for change and he was without knowing it as he sowed the seeds for what would become Pakistan as the region he conquered converted slowly over the centuries. He didn't venture into Hind or India proper as the Arabs viewed it as the real Muslim conquerors of India were not Arabs, not even close. I think this article needs more of an academic and neutral rendition that doesn't that provides context into him as a figure and possibly a section on modern revisionism as in retrospect people want to write him up as a hero or a bloodthirsty marauder. I say he was neither. If you want hero worship talk about him on some website that isn't an encyclopedia. This article should be informative and that can include both his military prowess and the people who were killed during the conquest. Information on Bin Qasim is pretty limited obviously as primary sources are difficult to attain. Record-keeping and historians were still emerging at the time and the likes Ibn-Khaldun would not show up for a while. Al-Tabari's the most respected historian and his massive volumes on early Islamic expansion are, in my opinion and that of most academics, the most incisive as he's something of a professional historian ahead of his time. Let's all try to discuss things with more direct primary sources (or the closest to them) and avoid partisan bickering, shall we? Tombseye 04:20, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Deleted information

Some information in this article was deleted by Street Scholar (talk · contribs), who has also done pov-warring/deletions in other articles. The information in this article should if possible be sourced with primary sources (i.e. especially the medieval muslim chronicles). The source of the bin Qasim quotation is The Chachnamah (Chachnama). English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg. Delhi Reprint, 1979. This originally arab work was translated into Persian, and later into English.

Information deleted: After the violence Qasim attempted to establish law and order in the newly-conquered territory by allowing a degree of religious tolerance. He was countermanded by Hajjaj who insisted on a more hardline policy. As a whole, populations of conquered territories were treated as people of the book and granted religious toleration of Hindu religion in return for payment of the poll tax (jizya). Brahmin caste system was tolerated and no conversion of conquered populations was attempted. [1] Qasim demolished many temples, shattered "idolatorous" artwork and killed many people in his battles. After the violence, he attempted to establish law and order in the newly-conquered territory through the imposition of Islamic Shariah laws. He also sought control through systematic persecution of Hindus. Qasim wrote an account of such experiences:

O my cousin; I received your life inspiring letter. I was much pleased and overjoyed when it reached me. The events were recounted in an excellent and beautiful style, and I learnt that the ways and rules you follow are conformable to the Law. Except that you give protection to all, great and small alike, and make no difference between enemy and friend. God says, 'Give no quarter to Infidels, but cut their throats." "Then know that this is the command of the great God. You should not be too ready to grant protection, because it will prolong your work. After this, give no quarter to any enemy except to those who are of rank. This is a worthy resolve, and want of dignity will not be imputed to you. Peace be with you. [2] (Source: The Chachnamah (Chachnama). English translation by Mirza Kalichbeg Fredunbeg. Delhi Reprint, 1979.)

Culturally native populations of conquered territories under Qasim underwent a great deal of hardship and struggle for their refusal to convert to Islam. Heavy taxes known as Jizya were imposed upon the non-muslims, and the conversion of conquered populations occurred on a large scale. Bin Qasim was successful, rapidly taking all of Sindh and moving into southern Punjab up to Multan. The forces of Muhammad bin Qasim defeated Raja Dahar, and took his daughters captive (they were sent to Damascus). On his arrival at the town of Brahminabad between 6,000 and 16,000 men died in the battle that ensued. --Kefalonia 12:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Pure bullshit, is your job devoted to spreading ignorance on the net?

Anyway, hardly anyone takes Wikipedia seriously. And now I know why, because of Idiots like you, who try to rewrite history, you nothing but an Internet warrior. Dude seriously next time type something useful rather then just randomly dancing your finger over the keyboard. The Greeks used to do this back in the day talk shit all day to people who didn't have a clue, trying to make themselves look smart. Your stuff is played out dude.

You make me laugh>

INFINITY FOUNDATION Owned by a Hindu Called Anjani Gharpure.

So dude, don't try to pull a fast one here. He is anti-Muslim, and you are getting information from his website and claiming it to be factual looooooooooool.

Oh and here are my sources and I'm going to edit the article back to what it was based on hindu and Muslim sources:

1. The Wonder that was India, By A.L. Bhasham 2. The peoples of Pakistan, By Yu. V. Gankovsky 3. Arab-o-Hind ke Talluqat, By Sulaiman Nadvi. 4. The Gazetteer of Pakistan: The Province of Sind, edited by T.H. Sorly 5. Gazetteer of the Province of Sind, compiled by E.H. Aitkin 6. Ancient Trade in Pakistan, By Sir Mortimer Wheeler, Pakistan Quarterly, Vol VII #1957 7. Sindhj Culture, By U.T. Thakkur. 8. Tareekh-Sind, By Manlana Syed Abu Zafar Nadvi. 9. An Advanced History of India, Part II, By R.C. Majumdar, H.C. Roychandra and Kalikinkar Ditta 10. The Land of five rivers and Sind, By David Ross 11. Arab~o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Suiaiman Nadvi; 12. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part I, By Ijaaul Haq Quddusi. 13. Dr. Mohammad Ishaque in Journal of Pakistan Historical Society Vol 3 Part1 14. A Study of History, Vol VII, By Arnold Toynbee. 15. Ibid. 16. Sind: A General Introduction, By M.T. Lambrick. 17. A greater portion of the area now called Baluchistan was then known as Makran. The word Baluchistan came into vogue much later. 18. Journal of Pakistan, Historical Society, Vol.111, Part 1 19. Tauzeehat-e-Tareekh-e-Masoomi. 20. Muslim Community of the Indo-Pakistan subcontinent, by Dr. I.H Qureshi 21. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, by Aijazul Haq Quddusi 22. The Making of India, By Dr. Abdulla Yusuf Ali. 23. Jaunat-us-Sind, By Maulai Shaidai. 24. Imperial Gazetteer of India. 25. Ibid. 26. Indian Muslims, By Prof. M. Mujeeb. 27. Tareekh-e-Sind, Part 1, By Aijazul Haq Quddusi. 28. The preaching of Islam by Sir Thomas Arnold 29. Shias of India, By John Norman Hollister. 30. Ibid. 31. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulaiman Nadvi 32. Sindhi Culture, By U.T. Thakut. 33. Tareekh-e-Sind, By Maulana Abu Zafar Nadvi. 34. The Peoples of Pakistan, By. Yu. V. Gankovsky. 35. Arab-o-Hind ke Tallukat, By Syed Sulairnan Nadvi.

--Street Scholar 19:59, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

We disagree with you and you biased pak sources. You must learn to live with this shame if you intend to find peace in life. --Dangerous-Boy 06:49, 17 November 2005 (UTC)