Talk:Gjirokastër

NPOV nomination

How is the following sentence the second most important fact about the city of Gjirokaster? "It is considered the centre of the Greek[1] community of Albania."

Have you ever visited? Have you spent time there? There are myriad other facts about this place that rank more important that this. Enough with the sectarian nationalism. Have some common sense. Actually visit the city -- and see how many more facts are important (obviously, the fact that it is a UNESCO World Heritage site should be cited higher) or that it is the birthplace of Enver Hoxha, Albania's brutal dictator. Give me a break...

It is my opinion that User:Tsourkpk has not displayed proper decorum and objectivity on many ethnically charged articles involved greece. Please consider his history on Wikipedia and this article when considering the NPOV nomination.

The article is sourced.Megistias (talk) 17:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Pretty hypocritical of you to talk about decorum, when your very first contribution to Wikipedia consisted of a vicious personal attack against me. You are the last person on earth who has a right to talk about neutrality, considering your behavior. You have no arguments and no sources to back up what you are saying, so you are just content to make personal attacks against me. This shows the weakness of your position as well as a police state mentality. Wikipedia relies on sources, something you do not seem to be aware of. Now, keep up the personal attacks and I will personally see to it that you are banned from wikipedia. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Slow down Tsourkok. I did not viciously attack you. I only said that reviewing your history of edits on Wikipedia indicates that many people are taking issue with your contributions which relate to ethinically charged articles, such as this one. According to your user profile, you have never visited Albania, so it is safe to assume you've never been to Gjirokaster. I do not take issue necessarily with the fact that there are some Greek speaking people in the region. My greatest concern is that the second sentence of this article refers to Gjirokaster as the center of Greek community in Albania. Any one who has even been there and spent some time can tell you that there is no way this is the most important "fact" (disputable or not) regarding this city and it should not be the second sentence in this article - PERIOD!

Regarding the source quoted above which supposedly proves your point, I just read it and it in no way references Gjirokaster as the "centre of the Greek[1] community of Albania." Not only that, but in fact the quote you cite is only half the actual quote. If you read the entire paragraph, you see that this quote references Greeks life in the past tense - talking about pre-WW1 settlements. Here it is in its entirety.

In the modern period, as the struggle for Albanian independence developed under the disintegrating Ottoman empire, many parts of southern Albania were subject to violent inter-communal conflict, as Greek irredentists attempted to integrate parts of what is now southern Albania into a “Greater Greece”. Given its large Greekspeaking population, the city of Gjirokastra (in Greek, Agyrocastro), in the Vjosa (Aoos) River valley, only twenty miles from the Greek border, was a particularly active centre of irredentist ambition. Outbreaks of ethnic violence in the area were particularly serious immediately after Albanian independence was declared and during the Second Balkan War, as some Albanian-speaking villages in Epirus fought on the side of the Turks against the Greek-speaking villages. In February 1914, a Pan-Epirote Association was founded in Gjirokastra, and the town and its vicinity were proclaimed a part of Greece. In May 1914, the Great Powers signed the Protocol of Corfu, which recognized the area as Greek, after which it was occupied by the Greek army from October 1914 until October 1915. Greece’s administration under the Protocol was short-lived, however, and collapsed after the Italian invasion in 1915.

The opening paragraph has to be changed.

In spite of your incivility (calling me a propagandist and whatnot, and then hypocritically pretending you didn't), I'm going to do you a favor and try explain how Wikipedia works. It works with sources. Please read WP:RS. So far, you have offered nothing but your own opinion, not a single source. I'm going to guess you're the guy that had posted that link to that photoblog a while back, and that this is not your field. Unfortunately for you, "I have been there" is not a source. As you can see here [[1]], Gjirokaster sits squarely in the middle of a zone of Greek majority. Thus, it is the center of the Greek community in Albania. This is from Le Monde Diplomatique, a highly reputable French newspaper and an impeccable source. As for the quote you mention above, it clearly states "large Greek speaking population" and "centre" in the same sentence. Why would Gjirokaster not be the center of the irredentist movement if it were not the center of the community? Come on, put and two and two together. Concerning your comments on the order with which things appear, well, that is a matter of opinion. But the fact that is is the center of the Greek minority in Albania is important no matter hoe look at it. --Tsourkpk (talk) 02:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Please Tsourkpk, no one wants this to be personal. The source you are using refers to the makeup of Gjirokaster nearly 100 years ago -- not today. This issue was up for discussion for a full week. Reading the source you have, it only makes it clear that there was once a sizable population in the region of Gjirokaster. There is no sourcing that says the same holds true today. I am reverting the article but will put the NPOV back on. Hopefully you can get a new source...but even so, how is this the most relevant fact about the city? The revision kept the reference to the Greek population but I believe it placed it in a more balanced light (notwithstanding the current lack of sourcing). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.161.124.19 (talk) 23:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This source [[2]] is from 1999 and shows Gjirokaster in the center of "region of Greek majority). It is most current and reliable. Taken together with the older source, this means that Gjirokaster was a center of the Greek community at least 100 years ago as well as in 1999. So I.m the one with the source and you are not. As for the order in which things appear, I might be willing to accept having the part about being a UNESCO World Heritage site come first, but a sentence on it being the center of the Greek community in Albania should follow that, as that is also pretty important. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the source at Le Monde diplomatique: The map which you are suggesting "shows Gjirokaster in the center of "region of Greek majority)" has a significant problem. If you see the map, you see that there is a primary sources where the map is supposed to come from "Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995." Here is a copy of the original text - [3]. I've read the entire thing -- and there is absolutely no reference to ethnic Greeks living within the border of modern day Albania. I think the map is highly suspect, considering the primary source it is claiming the map is derived from. Do you have any other sources we can consider? I don't think this one holds up to Wikipedia's standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.22.126 (talk) 01:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The map has that source regarding Albanian presences the newspaper is not Wikipedia .Email the newspaper if there is an issue.The map is fine.There are sources in the article itself and that show the map is correct and that Greeks are there.Megistias (talk) 08:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Thats regarding the Albanians and not the whole map."The Albanian population is dispersed among three different states: Albania, Macedonia and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.Sources : Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995.Megistias (talk) 08:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

"Megistias (talk) 08:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Megistias - please read the Le Monde Diplomatique link again. At the bottom, the website cites the source of the map as "Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995." I have read this essay in its entirety and I can assure there is no reference to borders or percentages of ethnic Albanians or Greeks living within the borders of the country. I am asking you to find a different source that shows that in Southern Albania today there is a majority Greek ethnic population. Please do not rip the NPOV label off until it is agreed upon by the people discussing the issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.86.19 (talk) 23:40, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Is also mentions "Macedonians" the source is for the Albanians and the map is fine.You are the one who should read it again .Megistias (talk) 07:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

To the anonymous Albanophile: Le Monde Diplomatique is unassailable as a source. You just don't like its implication, so you are trying to undermine it. This is all the more ridiculous, as you are the one who doesn't have a single source to support what you are saying. I have provided a modern, reliable and secondary source that satisfies WP:RS, and you have not. Wikipedia works with sources, not your personal testimony. I consider this discussion closed. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no room for language such as "Albanophile" in this discussion. I only seek an accurate representation (do not make this a tribal/political issue -- it certainly is not). That said, you are repeating the same mistake -- "Le Monde Diplomatique" is not the "unassailable" source of this map in question. Again, I repeat, the source cited is "Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise," which makes no mention of ethnic populations within Albania, rendering the map suspect. I've searched for different source we can use as evidence of your assertion, but have yet to now been unable to find anything concrete.

The CIA World Fact Book estimates 3% of Albania's population is ethnically Greek. [4]. Other reports I've read have Greek population estimates ranging from less than 1% to 10% Greek. This 1990 (communist -era) map [5] from Britannica shows southern Albania to have a minority of Greeks, but a population between 25 and 49%. It would be good to see a modern census, as the country was still very-much closed to the outside world in 1990. I'll keep looking. In the meantime, the NPOV must stay attached to this article and the discussion will continue. Users Tsourkpk and Megistias are not the final arbiters of this topic - but they are invited to participate in a respectable, non-politically partisan manner.

There are clear references on the article and the source did not site the particular work for this but for albanians.Megistias (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The estimates I've seen for the size of the Greek minority in Albania range from as low as 60,000 (1989 census, of dubious reliability) to as high as 400,000 (from a Greek organization, also dubious). But that is irrelevant to this discussion. This is the article on the city of Gjirokaster, not the size of the Greek minority in albania. As for your argument about "Le monde diplomatique", I think it seems like a just a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Like Megistias keeps telling you, the "Le monde diplomatique" only uses that particular reference for the Albanian population, not the Greek one. The map IS drawn by Le Monde Diplomatique, not the Qosja reference. That newspaper is one of the most prestigious publications out there, with a reputation for accuracy and fact checking, and they wouldn't put their name on any suspect maps. It meets all the requirements of WP:RS, and then some more. Do you speak French by the way? --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

NPOV Suggested Opening Section

Gjirokastër (Greek: Αργυρόκαστρον Argyrókastron, Aromanian: Ljurocastru, Italian: Argirocastro, Turkish: Ergiri) is a city in southern Albania at [show location on an interactive map] 40°04′N, 20°08′E with a population of around 34,000. It is also the capital of both the Gjirokastër District and the larger Gjirokastër County. Its old town is inscribed on the World Heritage List as "a rare example of a well-preserved Ottoman town, built by farmers of large estate". Located in the south of the country, at 300 meters above sea level, Gjirokastër has a beautiful and dramatic situation in a lush valley between the high Gjerë mountains and the rushing river Drin or Drinos.

Gjirokastër is one of the most venerable towns of Albania. Following the archeological site of Butrint (Buthrotum), located on the Ionian coast south of the city of Saranda, Gjirokastër was the second site in Albania to be recognized as a UNESCO World Heritage site. The city is overlooked by a large castle (Kalaja e Gjirokastres) with walls that date to the 3rd of 4th century BC.

Gjirokaster and the surrounding region formerly was home to a significant Greek population (Pre-WW1)[1]. Its name in Greek, Argyrokastron, means Silver Fortress, which refers to the castle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.86.19 (talk) 22:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

--Unless there is any objection, I am going to bring this live by April 4, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.224.15.105 (talk) 04:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

SUBSTANTIAL GREEK COMMUNITY

Could the one who added this text elaborate on it? How could you claim something when you have no proof that it even exists. And why even put substanital - it just doesn't sound too NPOV.- KAÇAK

The Greek community in Gjirokaster is only MINOR

Nationality map of east central and Southeast Europe 1989-1992

It shows the concentration of Greeks were in Gjirokaster and Sarande, but its only minor. 24.90.102.133 00:20, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Permission

Photo by Marc Morell

I am from Gjirokaster. I lived in Zagoria. Many speak Greek in the region, but very few actually identify themselves as being "Greek."

Page Targeted by Albanian Nationalists

It appears someone, probably an albanian nationalist, has systematically erased everything Greek-related from the article. The fact that this individual targeted only Greek-related sections leads me to believe these were politically motivated edits and I have consequently reverted them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsourkpk (talk • contribs) 00:20, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

What does nationalist means to you ?? Other than some Greek language left in use from the time of Byzantine Empire and kept alive by the Orthodox church and Greek priest who still give mass in Greek to Albanian people. There is nothing Greek about the Albanian cities.

Something that I would say about some of the regions in Greece.

if I'm being a nationalist... what are you?.. claiming my land.

I have documented 9 generations of my family and know where I come from and my history.

That, makes me nationalist, which I am.

Can you say the same? --jon (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Jon —Preceding unsigned comment added by DetiJon (talk • contribs) 17:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Invitation to discuss everything in this article in a constructive way

Why do you call old town Gjirokaster an Ottoman city??

Why state that is center of Hellenism ??

Why is the article written with intent to portray Gjirokaster as a use to be Greek town?

Proofs only and logic argument please, any other will be dissregarded.

Jon--jon (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleting Ottoman comment

Why do you call old town Gjirokaster an Ottoman city?? Based on what facts is made such a statement. If nobody gives impartial references I shall deleted.

Jon--79.97.11.216 (talk) 18:26, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Since no one has brought up any arguments or references the Ottoman comment is deleted. Jon--jon (talk) 11:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Deleting Gjirocastra center of the Greek culture

Somebody please give some meaning to this statements based on what logic or reference. Please refer to something that backs up this.

If not it will be deleted as unfounded.

Jon--jon (talk) 11:29, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It's referenced. It stays. Simple as that. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

About this "center of Greek culture"

I would like to know what exactly makes this city a "center of Greek culture". The university is named after Ekrem Cabej, an Albanologist, its main square is named after Cerciz Topulli, a nationalist born in the city. The city itself is almost entirely Albanian populated with the Greek minority living in the adjacent villages(namely Dropul, Droviani etc.). The city itself gave birth to a number of Albanian nationalists, artists and politicians(most notorious being Enver Hoxha). The city itself was built under the Ottoman period and shows architecture typical of the Ottoman Empire and formed part of what was unofficially recognized as Arnavutluk. Before then it was nothing more than a fortress that from the 14th century onwards passed from one Albanian tribal lord to another. If not all this, we should also consider the fact that the city is mostly Muslim(largely Bektashi) and has more mosques than churches.

So I would kindly ask just what exactly makes it a center of Greek culture? 128.226.209.45 (talk) 18:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

"Given its large Greek-

speaking population, the city of Gjirokastra (in Greek, Agyrocastro)"[6]Megistias (talk) 18:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

But just as I mentioned, the "large Greek community" is not present within the city itself but in its "rreth"(region). If you notice, the city never had a "Greek quarter". It was largely a Muslim Ottoman(with the exception of a few merchants) city with the wealthy members of it holding the nearby lands, many of which were inhabited by Greek peasants. And there is no area of "Greek culture" in Albania since there is no particular community center for the Greeks. Gjirokaster does not have a Greek university there; nor any particular cultural society or anything for that matter. The rrethi of Gjirokaster has Greeks, not Gjirokaster itself. In fact, no city in Albania, barring Korca -- because it rose in the later 1800's -- had a significant Christian community since only the Muslims had the social mobility to move up. Only later did the Christians begin to move, but mostly in cities such as Elbasan, Vlora, Durres, Shkoder and eventually(though only very late) Tirana. 128.226.209.45 (talk) 18:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The source states that it has Greeks in and out of the city in high concentration.Megistias (talk) 18:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Im not going to bother arguing that. Anyway, my point of contention is the claim that it is a "center of Greek culture", which there is no basis for. As I mentioned, the city lacks any Greek organization, society, college, etc. etc. 128.226.209.45 (talk) 19:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think its on the article now.The word culture occures 3 times .2 in titles and one in a ref title.Megistias (talk) 19:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Megistias !

Could you tell me how many Greeks are in the cities you claim the center of Hellenism ?? Do you know that a major part of the true Greek community in Albania came after the first and second world war for economic reasons! You write a lot of things which you are not bothered to discuss that in your world only or someone like you, are the need to be truth. You are one of a few that the word culture or truth and history does not occur.

So please stop spreading lies, would like to be, day dreaming so called information.

Jon --jon (talk) 17:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DetiJon (talk • contribs) 17:33, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

After the second world war? LOL! After the second world war, Greeks migrated to DEVELOPED countries, like the US, Canada, Australia, and Germany, not the poorest, least developed country in Europe! According to the CIA World Factbook, there are at least 120,000 Greeks in southern Albania [7]. Also, as you can see here [8], Greeks are majority (orange lines) in the southern border region of Albania. So who's the one "spreading lies" and "day dreaming"? --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I know a hole Family tree about 6 Families that are true Greeks that came after the second world war living in Vlora city, which I personally know. My grandfather housed a Greek family after the second world war.

1. Not everybody could afford to travel to far away land. 2. They left their homes because everything was scars and as the last resort they moved. 3. The vicinity of the country made a lot of them to try Albania without a plan. 4. Albania is one of the poorest countries in Europe today but Greece was a lot worst than Albania after the second world war.

There are only 3% Greeks in Albania and a few of wanna bee ones. These last ones are Gift of the Greek policy towards Albanians.

Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian, Bulgarian) (1989 est.) note: in 1989, other estimates of the Greek population ranged from 1% (official Albanian statistics) to 12% (from a Greek organization)

That is what this website says about the population ethnicities in Albania. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/al.html

Based on what has this website is giving this info? Who wrote the article? Who drew the map? It's all unofficial. http://mondediplo.com/maps/albanianmdv1999

I can bring references like this but you dismiss them as Albanian propaganda. LOL

Think ... if all region that is shown in that phony map was Greek majority how come there is so little members in their organizations. There are less than 3% Greeks in Albania. Narta & Dropulli are villages with a true Greek majority population known officially by the Albanian government and respected by all.

So LOL right back at you! Spreading lies and day dreaming is still you and your friends.

Jon--79.97.11.216 (talk) 18:14, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid you don't understand how Wikipedia works. I suggest you read and familiarize WP:RS, which should make this discussion easier. You provide anecdotal evidence ("I know a family tree of 6, bla bla"), which is not acceptable in Wikipedia. That's just your own hearsay. Even so, so what if some Greeks migrated after WW2? That's not the point here, is it? The point is, I give sources, namely two of them: 1) The CIA World Factbook, and 2) the French newspaper "Le Monde Diplomatique". Both are of a high standard, with a reputation for fact checking, and satisfy WP:RS. The fact that they are unofficial has no bearing on their reliability (and probably is a good thing, since we know how "reliable" official Albanian statistics from 1989 can be). --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:03, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe I don't understand how wikipedia works, but I understand one thing that it allows for people to create and spread lies in mass without even the Hearsay let alone truth.

About my Hearsay it was an answer to your sarcastic and ignorant comment only, not a contribution. As for the info. you call a hearsay above I can give you names and addresses of the family I mention even pictures and the history they tell how they came to Albania. Will that be prof enough? At least I'm writing TRUTH.

CIA Factbook /which I'm not disputing/ at least it's referring to a sours no matter reliable to you or not. "Le Monde Diplomatique" is getting the info from what/who??

Jon--jon (talk) 17:20, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

My god, you still just don't get it. Wikipedia is about verifiability, not "TRUTH". Of course every nationalist thinks they speak the truth, but that's not the point. The point is, if you want to be taken seriously, you have to use reliable sources and only reliable sources (such as CIA World Factbook and Le Monde Diplomatique). Providing names and addresses of some families is definitely NOT the way to go. --Tsourkpk (talk) 20:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I do get it . Read well and you will understand.

I accept the CIA Factbook as a reliable source based on their sources of info. Since there is a dispute between the two ethnicities. They bring their sources in and do not make any conclusions. For the simple fact that no one can other than the parties involved.

My dispute is with "Le Monde Diplomatique" is laughable their source of info., is unfounded.

If I bring you more sources that say that the Greek minority in Albania is 3% would you agree to change it??

My proposal would be the to revised to what the CIA Factbook says it is more impartial.

Albanian 95%, Greek 3%, other 2% (Vlach, Roma (Gypsy), Serb, Macedonian, Bulgarian) (1989 est.) note: in 1989, other estimates of the Greek population ranged from 1% (official Albanian statistics) to 12% (from a Greek organization)

It states the two sources of info., that could possibly know the percentage.

Jon--jon (talk) 19:48, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

No, Albanian sources and Greek are both biased though Albanian sources are biased to the extreme by "the area studied was confined to the southern border fringes, and there is good reason to believe that this estimate was very low"."Under this definition, minority status was limited to those who lived in 99 villages in the southern border areas, thereby excluding important concentrations of Greek settlement in Vlora (perhaps 8000 people in 1994) and in adjoining areas along the coast, ancestral Greek towns such as Himara, and ethnic Greeks living elsewhere throughout the country. Mixed villages outside this designated zone, even those with a clear majority of ethnic Greeks, were not considered minority areas and therefore were denied any Greek-language cultural or educational provisions. In addition, many Greeks were forcibly removed from the minority zones to other parts of the country as a product of communist population policy, an important and constant element of which was to pre-empt ethnic sources of political dissent. Greek place-names were changed to Albanian names, while use of the Greek language, prohibited everywhere outside the minority zones, was prohibited for many official purposes within them as well."Megistias (talk) 19:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Megistias have you ever lived in Albania ?? And please stop man with all you theories.

Coming back to the point... There are a lot people and organizations declaring absurdities. So my suggestion is that we can be impartial by stating what CIA Factbook has, which is both the parties involved figures.

All I can say after that is that time will tell who is right. This site as I learned, is not about the truth but has to be at least impartial.

Jon--jon (talk) 17:40, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Your opinions are irrelevant.Sources exist.Megistias (talk) 18:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on those sources I'm moving for an impartial statement. You are not stating your sources, but taking the part that you want to read only. That is the argument I'm making.

Look again at the sources they bring.

That's what I want to state the sources and what they say rather then the part that suits you the most.

Jon--jon (talk) 11:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I live in Albania and my mother is from Gjirokastra, in fact the Greek population inside the city is very small and the Greeks live in the villages near the border with Greece such as Dropull...apart this Gjirokastra is the birthplace of numerous Albanian figures , including the dictator, Enver Hoxha...Although one thing is sure the south of Albania is not the center of Hellenism, I don't understand all these Nationalist and primitive countries we border, for e.g. even the Serbs say, Kosovo is the center of Serbian History...What is this sick politic? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.24.250.130 (talk) 08:18, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

We can't all be as advanced as the Albanians, I'm afraid. ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· 09:01, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

POV

Some admin needs to help in here by cleaning the POV.This article sounds like a Greek city rather than an Albanian city.--Taulant23 (talk) 01:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That is its history it was a Creek & byzantine city and Albanians that came in the middle ages at 11th century ad and later on in the general region much later moved to the south.Its name was Greek and now the name is still Greek.And Greek population is still there along with Albanians despite the fact that now its in Albania.Megistias (talk) 10:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Albanians that came in the middle ages at 11th century ad and later on in the general region much later moved to the south????? That's what I mean by POV,just proved my point.--Taulant23 (talk) 19:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thats what origin of Albanians proposes actually.Illyrians-Thracians-Dacians were not in These regions only Greeks and later on only Greeks as well.Albanians appear much later.Megistias (talk) 19:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nationalists will always scream "POV" when confronted with a view different from their own. --Tsourkpk (talk) 04:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter when the Albanians settled around the area of Gjirokaster. "North Epirus" can be seen as 'irredentist', perhaps. Since the Greek pop. etc. etc. feature(s) prominently, what's the big deal? 3rdAlcove (talk) 06:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's not so much what I have a problem with, but rather the attempts to eradicate the word "Greek" from the article, of which there have been quite a few (just look at the talk history). I'm fine with removing "North Epirus", but I will not allow the "virtual eradication" of the Greek minority. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Eradicating the word Greek is highly extreme of course but so is it's superfluous use.Someone reading this article might think this city is situated in Greece and not Albania.Amenifus (talk) 10:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern, but for example, the word "Greek" appears twice in the second paragraph, while the word "Albania" appears four times. Also the infoboxes for both the city and the UNESCO world heritage site state quite clearly that the city is in Albania, and the map on the infobox puts it beyond any doubt. In any case, the article is fine now, so let's leave it at that. --Tsourkpk (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:WHS Assessment

Looking through this article, I've found some things that you can improve in order to bring it up to B standards, in addition to the list in the WHS assessment box.

The list of "famous" Gjirokastrites should probably be renamed. The criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia is 'verifiability' and 'notability', 'not' fame. Each perseon in that list should also have a citation froma reliable, third-party source which states why they are notable (e.g., former minister, royalty, etc). Similar inclusion criteria should be applied to the List of villages - a list is not necessary, if the villages are not notable.

Some of the specific claims, such as that about the initial nomination for inclusion in the World Heritage Site, should be cited. If there are no sources for said claim, then it should not be in Wikipedia.

In general, more citing and a general NPOV skim would be helpful. No-one should take any of these suggestions personally, these are just some ideas, and tips which I believe would make the article better. The history and culture sections are sound, it is really just the lists which are an immediate concern — cut them down. If you cannot source them, cut them. _Jame§^ugrono 04:00, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Unholy Aliance

I see that a group of wiki users, greeks I presume, are undoing my edits repeatedly. I fear these greeks have clearly a megali idea ultranationalist agenda which they are pursueing thoroughly and roughlessly. My experience is limited since I am new to wikipedia, hence I would like to invite the admins to take the necessary counter-measures. Back to the article, the Greek or Vlach toponym are totally superfluos, since neither of these languages is official in Albania, nor there is any indigeneous greek or vlach speaking community in the city. So far not a single source has been brought to attest the countrary. Let alone the sentence of being centre of greekness is at least ridicuous. As une user has written precedntly "The city itself is almost entirely Albanian populated with the Greek minority living in the adjacent villages(namely Dropul, Droviani etc.). The city itself gave birth to a number of Albanian nationalists, artists and politicians(most notorious being Enver Hoxha). The city itself was built under the Ottoman period and shows architecture typical of the Ottoman Empire and formed part of what was unofficially recognized as Arnavutluk. Before then it was nothing more than a fortress that from the 14th century onwards passed from one Albanian tribal lord to another." As it is seen here [9] in the diary of John Cam Hobhouse of his travels with Lord Byron in 1810s Gjirokastra is refered as a city inhabited by Turks e.i. moslems. But seems to me that no one here is interested on the truth but only on their fascist ultranationalist agendas. Asdreni (talk) 00:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

If it was indeed the center of the Greek community, we could expect the list of Famous Gjirokastrites to include at least one Greek name -- yet it curiously does not. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr#Famous_Gjirokastrites . I am appalled at the level of organized nationalist activity on Wikipedia (the disease is so far beyond this single article). There is not one article on Wikipedia where ethnic nationalistic interests are involved that can be fully trusted today.

In this article's instance, anyone who has lived in Gjirokaster knows full well that there are a handful of Greek speaking villages surrounding the city, but not a single pocket within. Regardless, it is commendable that Wikipedia is attempting to source articles. In this instance, the two sources cited are quite funny.

Source 1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr#cite_note-0) literally describes the region nearly 100 years ago, yet the person who cites the source misleads the reader to make it appear the source is speaking about the present day (read the source link through and you will see).

Source 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr#cite_note-1, http://mondediplo.com/maps/albanianmdv1999) clearly cites the source of the map. "Sources : Rexhep Qosja, La question albanaise, Fayard, Paris, 1995." Anyone who has read the Albanian Question by Rexhep Qosja (read it here: http://www.albanianhistory.net/en/texts20_2/AH1994.html) knows that no such map is included in that essay. Nor are any statistics of ethnic populations listed. The map is unfortunately wrong (or wrongly sources) and the source listing should be removed until further clarification. Do note that Le Monde diplomatique has complete editorial autonomy from Le Monde, the mainstream French newspaper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Monde_diplomatique#Le_Monde_diplomatique_SA) and can not be described as such.

--216.254.86.19 (talk) 18:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Famous Gjirokastrits

Re this dispute. Firstly, easiest thing is to alphabeticize the list, which avoids all the subjective issues over who's most famous. Secondly, the sole criteria for inclusion are notability and being from Gjirokastër; ethnicity is not an issue. I suggest letting this be decided by editors who don't have any partisan stake in this. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 14:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, notability is one thing that the 2 vlachs(now called greeks) dont have --Sarandioti (talk) 14:24, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Either way, I have no problem with your edit. --Sarandioti (talk) 14:26, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, I've just looked more closely, and I agree with your doubts about the notability of Dimitrios Hatzipolyzoy; at least in English language sources, all that can be found about him is that he acquired a fortune in Wallachia and gave a "large endowment" to a high school. If that's all, he doesn't look worth including. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 14:45, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Clear pov approach by a suspected meatmuppet (e.g. Vlachs, no Greeks? suppose u need source for that claim). I agree off course with the alphabetical order. On the other hand, Sara's comments are entirely unencyclopedic (no wonder beeing blocked twice in a 3 day period). Also, what about the unsourced personalities that need a source since 2008? (are they more notable than the sourced ones?) Suppose they need a cleanup if something in English isnt found about them.Alexikoua (talk) 14:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Its Sarandioti, not Sara. So use it correctly greko. You forget that my block was initially for a month and then reduced to 3 days. And no im not suspected for recruiting others or anything else. About the vlachs presented as greeks. What exactly makes them notable? They are unknown even to 99,99999999% of even greeks --Sarandioti (talk) 15:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

cleanup

I cleaned up this article, particularly the notable inhabitants section which seemed inflated with non-notable individuals for the well-known reasons. Some of them citation tags had been there for over a month now. --Athenean (talk) 06:00, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Bajo and Çerçiz Topulli

Both brothers are famous leaders and Albanian Independence fighters they are buried in Gjirokastër and a statue of Çerçiz is laying in the middle of main square of Gjirokastër.

some of sources mentioning them:

• Aux origines du nationalisme albanais: la naissance d'une nation majoritairement musulmane en Europe Author Nathalie Clayer Publisher KARTHALA Editions, 2007 ISBN 2845868162, 9782845868168 page 567
• History of the Balkans: Twentieth century Author Barbara Jelavich Edition illustrated, reprint Publisher Cambridge University Press, 1983 ISBN 0521274591, 9780521274593 page 87
• The crescent and the eagle: Ottoman rule, Islam and the Albanians, 1874-1913 Author George Walter Gawrych Edition illustrated Publisher I.B.Tauris, 2006 ISBN 1845112873, 9781845112875 page 91
• Preparation for a revolution: the Young Turks, 1902-1908 Author M. Şükrü Hanioğlu Publisher Oxford University Press US, 2001 ISBN 019513463X, 9780195134636 page 257
• Late Ottoman society: the intellectual legacy Author Elisabeth Özdalga Editor Elisabeth Özdalga Edition illustrated Publisher Routledge, 2005 ISBN 0415341647, 9780415341646 page 302
• The Sufi Journey of Baba Rexheb By Frances Trix Edition illustrated Publisher University of Pennsylvania Press, 2009 ISBN 1934536121, 9781934536124 page 58
• Zwischen Feudalismus und Stalinismus: albanische Geschichte des 19. und 20. Jahrhunderts Author Thomas Kacza Publisher Trafo, 2007 Original from the University of Michigan ISBN 389626611X, 9783896266118 page 32-33-34
• Die albanische Nationalbewegung Author Johannes Faensen Publisher Harrassowitz [in Komm.], 1980 Original from the University of Michigan page 69
• Études balkaniques Author Institut za balkanistika (Bŭlgarska akademii︠a︡ na naukite) Publisher Edition de lA̕cadémie bulgare des sciences, 1986 Original from the University of Michigan page 56
• 1912-1925 Publisher Oldenbourg Wissenschaftsverlag, 1973 ISBN 3486475711, 9783486475715 page 97