User talk:Theodore7

A welcome from Sango123

Hello, Theodore7, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions; I hope you like the place and decide to stay. We're glad to have you in our community! Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Happy editing!

-- Sango123 (talk) 22:58, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Feel free to leave a message on my talk page if you need help with anything or simply wish to say hello. :)

I'm glad you liked the welcome! If you need anything, feel free to drop by. By the way, please type four tildes (~~~~) after your messages on talk pages. It generates a signature showing your username and a timestamp, which will look like this: Theodore7 10:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Cheers, Sango123 (talk) 20:33, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

No problem! Glad to be of service. :) Sango123 (talk) 21:25, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Astrology Types & Forecasting the Weather

Would like to know who is a professional astrologer, and interested in talking more about reaching consensus on this page rather than leaving the entries to those who present obvious negative POV that is not neutral, but clearly biased on the applied science. Theo 13:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Greetings. I have left a reply for you at the Talk:Validity of astrology page. I'm not an astrologer myself (more of a I Ching person), but I am not at all hostile to the practise. I have a lot of respect for scientists & the scientific method, but I also see that many make a new religion out of it and fail to see its inherent limitations, if that makes sense. Cheers, --Fire Star 17:59, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi FireStar, yes is does make sense. I also left a reply on that Talk Page. One of the major problems conventionalist scientists have is that they lack the intruments to weigh and measure the influences of the planets relative to the Earth. What they do not yet get is that judicial astrology - not "sun-sign astrology" - is the oldest science on earth and includes astronomy, which is the technical side of astrology. Astronomy is not meant to have a philosophy and yet they attempt to do so. Moreover, what is very interesting is that many do not believe in astrology, but I've been forecasting the weather for years using astro-meteorology and been very accurate - over 90 percent - and this perturbs some conventional scientists who do not study scientific astrology (openly) but see its amazing results. Many become cynics - which clouds judgement, and others who claim psuedo-science and laugh it away spend an awful amount of time on the subject. If its so funny then just chuckle and be on your way. But, you know, they seem to want to stick around and make sure no one else believes anything. That is suspect, don't you think? What on earth could conventional scientists be scared of? Theo 18:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The Chinese make a strong connexion between weather and astrology (far beyond the obvious "It is winter so it must be cold" type). Unfortunately, the vast majority of their stuff remains untranslated. Myself, I'm also an amateur astronomy buff with a nice 750mm f5 Newtonian reflector, so I watch the moon cycles and local weather closely for observing purposes. I have noticed a correlation to weather dramatically changing immediately upon the full moon or new moon. Nothing systematic, just a trend I've noticed since I've been using the telescope. Of course, our no original research policy prevents me from mentioning anything like that in an article! ;-) Cheers, --Fire Star 19:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes Fire Star, the weather changes accord to the gravitational cycles of the Moon relative to the Earth - known for centuries by judicial astrologers of nearly all cultures. The perigee cycle - from Full Moon to New Moon - brings the Moon closer within the Earth's orbit. These are also closely aligned with the northern and southern declinations of the Moon, in the tropical signs indicated, shows the type and strength of precipitation, among other effects, on the weather. For judicial astrologers, forecasting the weather is Astrology 101 - the first thing learned and the most easy function to perform using astrological principles - or, mathematics. Theo 19:11, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Biblical Magi

Hi, Theodore7. I was just wondering why you removed the info you did from the article on the Biblical Magi. It seems like the traditional names given to them would be useful, as that's pretty basic information and might be one of the more common things people would look up the article to learn, and second paragraph of section 1 does mention that they are not named in Matthew's account, so if that was the issue with that line, I think it's covered. Also, pointing to the Constantine disambig page doesn't seem any more helpful than the page for Emperor Constantine I - unless that's the wrong Constantine, in which case, which one should it be? Thanks! -- Vary 02:19, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Vary - actually, that was a mistake. I was working on that and then I couldn't get it reverted back because I was blocked at that time and no matter what I did, it just didn't go through. I thought no changes were made. I left the tradtional names, and didn't get to Constantine, but will take a look again at Matthew's account. I did not have any issue with that line whatsoever. Re/Constantine, you know, that is a very good question. Which one is it? I will take a look if you will too. I didn't spend much time at all on it and glad you sent me a message. Get back to me. I'm going to take a look but would prefer it if you would revert it back to where it was when you worked on it. Thanks.Theo 04:46, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Vary - I took a look and need your help on the section. Is it in your revert? Let me know. I will check out the right Constantine. I have a reference book on this particular era. Please remind me, ok? By the way, good references, and additions to the Magi history by you. That stuff is hard to find - on the Magi - and it looks like a lot of good work there has been done. My edits were minor - very - and were small additions. I'd like to know more about your knowledge here, because there isn't much on your talk page, I just added material on mine if you want to take a look. Theo 04:53, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

The link to the Constantine page was added very recently - it pointed to a disambig before. When I saw it had been removed, I figured it was because someone disagreed with said edit. But, I've looked at Powell's articles, and he always says simply 'Constantine', rather than Constantine I or II or whatever, and that usually means Constantine I (the great,) and anything after II would be too late, anyway, so I think that Adam Bishop's edit was right.

If the changes were unintentional, I'll go ahead and put them back. And you don't need to look at Matthew's account, that's fine - I've checked, and the article is correct on that. They aren't named, but the popular names given them are still important, I think.

I didn't add anything at all to the article myself, actually - it's been getting a fair bit of vandalism recently, so I've had to do a few reverts on it, and have it on my watchlist. -- Vary 05:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Vary, yes, me too. Especially on the references to astrology. Someone out there thinks they can undo thousands of years of history on this subject by using POV and vandalism on this subject matter. Just unbelievable. Thanks for the reverts on the material. Theo 23:44, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Astrology

"Astrology and astronomy were once the same discipline and many famous astronomers practiced as astrologers."

This is a myth Theo.

Response: I suggest you study your history - because it is FAR from a myth. There are plenty, and I mean PLENTY - of materials out there that proves that this is a fact. Try starting with reading the "Tetrabiblos" to see that of course astrology/astronomy were ONE - how can you as a serious student even suggest such a thing as it being a myth?

"Astrologers maintain that the cosmos of which the Earth is a part, runs in cycles and definite patterns that have been observed for thousands of years to have effects on the Earth. In fact, those practicing astrology learn at the start that astrology is a very serious study of cycles and mathematical patterns in time. They apply mathematical aspects such as the conjunction, sextile, square, trine, and opposition to form complex calculations between celestial objects in their movements amongst the constellations relative to the Earth's position and the regions of time and space where a person is born to forecast potential future events. Free will is a given in true astrological practice, but is within the principles of universal laws - not outside of it."

The vast majority of astrologers in the world today don't believe that the planets and stars literally "effect" anything per se. The general consensus seems to be that it is more of a matter of synchronicity, or that the planets are mysteriously reflecting circumstances without there being any direct causal influence. Also, not all traditions of astrology use the major 'Ptolemaic aspects' of cojunction, sextile, square, etc. In modern Indian astrology they only use the whole sign opposition and certain special aspects for Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. Then of course you have other traditions of astrology which don't use aspects at all, so its misleading to imply that all astrologers use aspects. Also, you talk about "their movements amongst the constellations" which is only applicable to sidereal astrology, and not to tropical western astrology since Ptolemy established the vernal point as the primary reference point in the 2nd century.

Response: Study the techniques of tropical and sidereal astrology. This is NOT an valid argument. It is just about the "seasons" and the "constellations" due to the precession of the equinoxes. That is all. Question: how the hell can you conduct astrology WITHOUT using the aspects? Are you a serious student? What is mathematics for - nothing? Give me a break.

Also I object to this rather subjective statement that "Free will is a given in true astrological practice" because this is an issue that is constantly debated within the astrological community itself, and to state that 'only true astrology' in not fatalistic is completely biased. Different astrologers have different opinions about the subject, and who are you to say that the only real astrology is that which is free-will oriented? This is what I am talking about when I say that this is not NPOV.

Response: Free will is a given in astrological practice as it is in real life. I practice astrology - professionally - and by experience know this to be TRUE. Free will within the laws of the universe is a given. Suggest you gain more years of practical astrological practice under your belt before writing on the subject seriously. Experience and the gained knowledge counts for much.

"Judicial Astrology, the oldest form of classical astrology is an applied science not to be confused with "sun-sign astrology" - the popularized entertainment form of astrology that spread in North America in the early 20th Century."

What does this mean? Judicial astrology is simply a demarcation to separate the specific interpretive art of astrology from what was termed "natural astrology" in the classical and Medieval period. Sun sign astrology would still fall under the heading of Judicial astrology though because it is an attempt to ascribe meaning to the position of a celestial body at a person's birth. While it is true that this is an extremely simplified form of tropical natal astrology and that it doesn't accurately represent horoscopic astrology, that does not mean that it does not have some basis in it to some degree.

Response: This statement by you indicates a serious lack of knowledge of the subject. Suggest you study extensively because of the copious materials out there. Try taking a visit to Europe where you can spend time actually reading some of the original materials on astrology - because then you will have more knowledge to add to your studies.

"True classical scientific astrologers, do not separate from the science of astronomy, the scientific study of outer space and the applied sciences of astrology."

I'm currently studying Hellenistic and Vedic astrology which originated in the 2nd century BCE and 2nd century CE respectively, and I can attest to the fact that this is not an accurate statement to make. I suspect that this notion originated with a misreading of Ptolemy by some modern astrologers, but even he separates his books on astronomy and astrology. Even within his major treatise on astrology he makes a distinction between the calculations that are needed in astrology and the actual interpretive part of the subject.

Response: Hellenistic and Vedic astrology is judicial astrology practiced by the Greeks and the Indian cultures. Try not to confused the cultural/religious prespective of those cultures with astrological techniques. These are "techniques" that vary according to the cultural era of practice. At your age, how can you even be qualified to state that there is a "misreading of Ptolemy?" You are not an astrologer yet - but a student of astrology. There is a difference.

"Known as "judges of the heavens" - judicial astrologers rank among the most well-known astronomers, mathematicians and medical doctors in human history..."

I have never once heard this term "judges of heaven" used by any astrologers either modern or ancient and I seriously doubt the applicability of that title to astrologers in general and to this article in particular.

Response: That is the meaning of "judicial astrology" - judicial, meaning a "judge" and astrology referring to the study of the "heavens." If you haven't heard of it means that you have not reached this level of study. Any serious astrologer with knowledge knows the history of judicial astrology.

"...and include such names as Hippocrates, Copernicus, Nostradamus, Brahe, Johann Kepler, Galileo, William Lilly and Isaac Newton..."

While it is true that Copernicus, Brahe, Kepler and Galileo were all astrologers in addition to being astronomers, and actually still have birth charts cast by them as well as some delineations, it is not an accurate statement to make that Newton was an astrologer.

Response: Really? Then you truly have much more to learn. Newton studied and practiced astrology as well as alchemy.

While he was clearly into alchemy and he would have had to of known a bit about astrology in order to carry out certain alchemical experiments, this does not mean that he was actually an astrologer and we have no evidence to substantiate that claim. It actually appears that he was quite hostile to natal astrology, although he appears to have believed in some quasi-astrological sort of things due to his Christian beliefs, such as comments being warnings from God. This is accepted by all historians of astrology at this point. For example, see Nick Campion's book Astrology, History and Apocalypse.

Response: he was hostile to "astrologers" who did not view the planets and stars with their own eyes. Of which there are quite a few who do not to this day. Moreover Chris, you seem to be picking gnat sh__ out of pepper here and you've got more to learn - MUCH MORE. I suggest you do that rather first before making changes on this subject. You are too young yet to make such absolute statements - particularly on astrology.

"Claudius Ptolemy, the Second Century A.D. judicial astrologer who is considered the father of western astrology"

This is just flat out inaccurate.

Response: How is THAT so? Ptolemy's work - even to this day - is required reading for most western students of astrology. Have you read, and studied the Almagest and the Tetrabiblos?

"declared that prediction of events was only possible through the union of two factors: first, correct mathematical calculations of the positions and motions of the Sun, Moon, planets, and stars. Second, a prophetic spirit derived from God by which their configurations can be correctly interpreted by certain inspired human beings known as judicial astrologers."

You appear to actually be drawing on material from Nostradamus, but attributing it to Ptolemy. I’ve read Ptolemy and from what I can tell he said nothing of the sort.

Response: Of course he did. I suggest you re-read Ptolemy and stop wasting my valuable time with your long statements based on your lack of knowledge. I am an experienced astrologer Chris, and a teacher and I do not enjoy being lectured by a student who obviously has a lot more to learn. You are only in your early 20s and you dare to say that you've already gained the knowledge to make such bold statements?

"Today, judicial astrologers are rare due to the false popularization of sun-sign astrology"

Actually, there is quite a large astrological community in the world today and it appears to be growing. In light of that, I find this to be a peculiar statement.

Response: Yes, I am one of those judicial astrologers - with over two decades of experience and going into my third decade. Still, considering the vast number of "astrologers" in the world today, there are few constellational;, classical judicial astrologers as opposed to the past.

"It is said that nothing forecasted by a judicial astrologer should ever be taken lightly due to the seriousness and many years of practice to become a judicial astrologer. The average span of learning and astrological practice is over 20 years to reach the qualification level of judicial astrologer."

Ahem...

Response: Ahem, what? You express a lack of serious astrological knowledge and should know better.

"Algebra, Geometry and Trigonometry - mathematical techniques invented by judicial astrologers."

I would like to see a source to back this up.

Response: If you do not know that these mathematical techniques were invented by astrologers Chris Brennan - then I suggest you back way, way up and start your astrological studies over. This clearly is a fact and the sources are out there easily for you to find. Jeez. Are you kidding me?

"Serious astrologers maintain that those who practice astrology without years of experience are not astrologers - but merely students."

I don’t buy this.

Response: as a "student" yourself - that is clearly obvious. There's nothing for you to "buy." But, if I catch you reading one chart as as "professional" Chris, when you clearly are not yet a professional astorloger - I will report you. This is a SERIOUS science and clients come to a professional with serious issues and you are not yet qualified - considering your statements here that show your lack of astrological knowledge - to be able to practice professionally. Put your time FIRST. Studying astrology is NOT the same as practicing in the real world. Understand? You are still a student. Don't go out there pretending to be a professional astrologer when you are not one yet. There's enough so-called "astrologers" out there who are not professional and give this science a bad name. These are the pseudo-scientists that I hate. They are lazy and don't want to work hard. it takes many years to become a professiona. And,I spent many, many years studying before actually reading professionally and you should do the same.

Conclusion: I really don't like psuedo-skeptics. The way I see it, a true skeptic is someone who is even skeptical of their own skepticism and thus they are more able to approach any subject from a truly neutral perspective. Psuedo-skeptics tend to just attack things right away due to prejudices and misconceptions about subjects. Its really annoying when someone is just attacking you all the time and making stupid assumptions because they haven't taken the time to research the subject that they despise so much. I think that this is even worse though, because this is essentially the exact same thing except that its focused in a more defensive manner. I think that this is even more destructive though. Although I can see that from your perspective you are trying to defend astrology, in actuality you are doing more harm than good because you are doing it in a way that is very hostile and inaccurate in places, and ultimately you are giving astrologers a bad rap because of this kind of aggressive behavior. I don't know if you are going through bad transits right now or what, but please, stop this madness and work with us here instead of trying to fight everyone.

Response: I am not fighting anyone. And, just who do you think you are to make such conclusionary statements on Astrology? You are a STUDENT Chris, and NOT a professional, experienced astrologer, or a teacher. You have a long way to go depending on the honesty and hard work you are willing to put into the subject. Moreover, I knew some people connected with Kepler, and some are very good instructors, but however, do not confuse your studies on Greek astrology with the entire knowledge of astrology. There is so much more to learn. Yet, you have the gall to write as if you are an experienced, professional astrologer. How dare you make such a statement that is rude, subjectly and clearly in error. The only "madness" here Chris is your assumption that you are professional in this science yet, when you are NOT. That is aggressive behavior my friend, and you have no right going around in your early 20s claiming that you are an experienced astrologer when you clearly have not reached the professional level as yet. As for going "through bad transits" - I suggest you read your OWN chart ONLY and not the charts of anyone else professionally until you have gained more astrological experience. Try astro-meteorology - forecasting the weather first - as this will sharpen your ability greatly by using an ephemeris right. It is the first thing learned by those studying judicial astrology and astrology in general and I started at the age of 10-years-old. I am now in my 40s. If you must make astrological assumptions Chris - while stating them as fact - please do so in your own studies and not on a Wikipedia subject page. You have much, much more to learn - especially on astrology in general. Forecast the weather to test your ability to read transits and to forecast for human beings. Do this and become expert at it before making predictions for real people in the real world. Theo 22:58, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Oh, hell no. Thats it. I was trying to be polite with you, but now you are going to try and talk down to me just because you are older and you think that you know more? That doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to the history of the subject, which you obviously haven't studied. You say that your "experience" and "knowledge counts for much", but you obviously haven't been studying too hard when you can make such blatantly inaccurate statements like "Ptolemy is the father of western astrology" and "Newton was a practicing astrologer". I know 14-year-old kids who know more about the history of astrology than you do, and that is pretty sad when you are trying to pretend that you are some great scholar of the subject.

Response: Again, experience and knowledge means quite a bit Chris. And, if you truly have been studying astrology as you say that you are then you would already know this. As for 14-year-old-kids who know more about the history of astrology than I do - I seriously doubt this. I am a scholar, great? I do not say so. I have taught and teach on the subject, and write on it as well. I have more than 21 years of experience Chris, and do quite well because I worked hard on this science. Theo 01:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

 It is charlatans like you who continue to give astrology a bad reputation because not only are you almost completely ignorant about the history of the subject, but you are overtly arrogant about your ignorance and you flaunt it around. 

Response: Supposition. Suggest you reduce your ego-level, because as a "student" of astrology you have lots more to learn. You do not know me at all to make such statements. If you are going to call a professional astrologer a "charlatan" then I suggest you back it up with evidence. Be careful here Chris, because now you are writing things that are libelous because it is now in writing. Theo 01:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

You keep talking about how you are a "professional" and a "teacher", but you aren't even aware of the simplest of historical facts about the subject.

Response: How would you deduce that? Prove it. Theo

You haven't written any books, and I doubt that you have any certification with any of the schools or organizations.

Response: That you are aware of. Supposition again and quite in error.

Basically, you are a 40-year-old nobody who knows less about the subject that you supposedly practice than some 21-year-old kid. 

Response: This statement proves that you will not become a professional astrologer. You show no respect, and think that your knowledge is equal to that of a practicing professional. Theo 01:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

How very sad for you.  If you would just stop talking trash and trying to force your opinions and your faulty articles down other people's throats for one minute, then you might learn something and you might be able to actually change things around here to some degree.  But of course you wont, and so eventually all of your contributions will amount to nothing.  Way to go Theo.    --Chris Brennan 01:16, 20 December 2005 (UTC)  

Response: Suggest you take that very poor attitude and put your energy into actually becoming a professional. No one is trying to change anything around here. You assume way too much Chris. You make subjective statements, have made factual errors in astrological history and practice, and then go on to state that articles written from knowledge and experience are faulty. I've written many times on astrology, have lectured, taught and have a thriving client practice. I suggest you back off and spend your time studying rather than being rude and assumptive - very bad thing for an astrologer to do. My contributions are my own and made by me on my own and will amount to nothing less and nothing more. The contributions on Wikipedia is to expand knowledge, not restrict it Chris, and before you go on being rude about someone more experienced than you - take a step back and realize that there is a long way to go before you can practice professionally with the statements you've made here. Theo 01:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

---

Theo, Astrology is nothing more than superstition, and vandalising a bunch of articles by sticking the words "astrologer and" before the subject's profession will not change that. I've backed out your changes on the hippocrates article, and will be watching for similar shennanigans on other articles.

Response: Using the word vandalism to support your POV is not enough for you to suggest that astrology is superstition - especially considering by your words here that you haven't studied the science to support your claims. I suggest on Hippocrates that you find out why then that he stated that a physician who does not practice astrology before treating a patient is a quack and not a doctor." I also suggest that you first study the science rather wasting time on opinions that are not supported by the historical facts. Theo 00:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Astrology is not, never was, and will never become a science, no matter how emphatically you insist otherwise. You have some need to promote it, apparently, but please refrain from damaging unrelated wikipedia articles to do so. If you want to talk about Hippocrates and astrology, then I suggest a section at the bottom, along the lines of, "although a great contributor to medicine, Hippocrates was nevertheless susceptible to many of the superstions of his day, such as the belief in and practice of Astrology".

Well then, I guess then if you say so - it must be so then, huh? Suggest you read Hippocrates own words on the subject before making decisions for him, ok? Theo 10:36, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

One thinks that rather than dredge up dead scientists and philosophers who used or believed in astrology, as well as a few living crackpots, it might be best to find a current professional astronomer, cosmolgist or astrophysicist who belies in or uses astrology. (And not that nut Hoagland, although precisely what discipline other than his own he thinks he follows is beyond me). Oh, yes, I forgot, I'm a cynic (actually, I'm a skeptic, but I'm sure that's just a simple matter of semantics). Jim62sch 20:14, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Astrology Page

If you are to make revisions on the Astrology Talk Page, then please at least source materials before entering POV on the page. This continues to be done and violates Wikipedia NPOV. The outline on the Astrology Page is for knowledge and expansion and is not a personal college paper, nor for those who have limited or no astrological knowledge to enter in the subject matter. Thanks.Theo 01:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Minor edits

You should read Wikipedia:Minor edit. Nobody would call [1] a minor edit, and many would consider it deceptive for it to be marked as such. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:23, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Bunchofgrapes. That was a free addition saved over a week ago. When sources are added to the that page, I add them. What do you suggest I do after additions, delete them?

I am afraid I am having trouble understanding you. The diff I showed you involved the addition of a great deal of text to the article, including new sections ==Introduction==, == Astrology & 20th Century Expansion==, and == Judicial Astrology: Astronomers, Mathematicians and Prophets ==, and == Mathematics and Core Principles ==.

I do not understand what you mean by "That was a free addition saved over a week ago." Are you saying you simply reverted to an old version? If so, I realize that, but that certainly doesn't make it a minor edit. I also cannot understand "When sources are added to the that page, I add them." That page? What page is that page?

Please enlighten me in a more clear manner. Thank you. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:03, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Bunchofgrapes, I'm not the only newbie who, when editing material on Wikipedia - is immediately "attacked" with assumptions, direct accusations, and whatever, rather than honest intentions. I added material, and continue to use the Talk Page. That's it. I take good advice, and read and learn more about Wikipedia and the copius advice on matters that arise throughout Wikipedia. As for the additions, yes, as you know, they are linked, and relate to the same subject, which as with Astrology, have many branches. Suggest you discover that Astrology is not one monolethic subject, and is directly connected to many subjects: such as astronomy, mathematics, etc.Theo 01:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Look, all I was trying to say is this: if your edits aren't minor (and "minor" means typos or things like that), don't mark them as minor. It's very simple. Now you know. Cheers! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:18, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

So, a typo is not a "minor edit?" What is a minor edit then? Theo 01:47, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, clarified my ambiguous sentence above. Fixing a typo is a perfect example of what makes a minor edit. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:51, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Was worried there for a minute.Theo 01:53, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Happy holidays!

File:CandyCane.JPG

A candy cane for you!

Hi, Theo! I hope you have an enjoyable and relaxing winter break as well. :) Take care, Sango123 (talk) 00:11, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

You too Sango123. Learning more to become a better Wikipedian. Thanks for your great advice and even-handed perspectives.Theo 01:59, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

benjamin franklin

Theo, I reverted your change because:

• you reverted WilliamKF's change
• you added something about astrology in a sentence which is mostly about science and technology. all I did was move your mention of astrology to the end of the paragraph.
• I moved your reference to "Poor Richard Improved" after "Poor Richard's Almanack", to which it is related.

Your comment in the history makes no sense. I know Franklin wrote Poor Richard's; that's why I added to reference to it. Did you even look at my change? I didn't take out any of your astrology stuff; I mostly just moved it around. I even added to it, to back up your assertion about astrology with a link to Poor Richard's. Pfalstad 03:23, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

I added that because Franklin practiced astrology as a science. He wrote on, predicted, and used astrology in weather forecasting. He used a scientific ephemeris to do this, and this is applied science. Astrology is also not "stuff" and Franklin himself would take you to task on the usage of the word in connection to applied astrology. my "assertion" is based on Franklin's own works; from him - a primary source.Theo 03:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Nostradamus

I couldn't be bothered getting involved in this dispute (I try to avoid one of the editors in the conflict, anyway) but I couldn't help but notice yourself and some others arguing that he is "considered by some" to be famous in the lead paragraph. Surely it's accepted fact, rather than POV, that he is famous - to say this isn't to take any sides, but to say some believe him to be famous just sounds odd. elvenscout742 23:00, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree Elvenscout. It reflects much of the narrow-POV in versions by PL. Clearly, most people have heard the name "Nostradamus" - yet, this person's particular brand of POV cannot even allow for that! It sounds more than just "odd" - it just indicates an inability by some to even get anywhere near neutral in their own personal biased views.Theo 00:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment style

Hi, I'm making the same request to you I did to PL: please don't break up other people's comments on talk pages (see wikipedia:talk page guidelines#formatting). It's a style familiar from Usenet and email, but it effectively turns what should be an open discussion into two-way conversation. (I'm looking at your exchanges with PL and it's hard to make head or tail of.) It is much more helpful to split replies to different points by numbering within a paragraph, or different paragraphs, or even subheadings. Thanks. Rd232 ^talk 13:06, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Advice

I reverted your edit on science and added an explanation to the talk page. From skimming your user page, I gather you have the right mind set to successfully work on Wikipedia, although your ideas are controversial. Your problem seems to be that you are doing things that you could easily get away with around here if you were pushing mainstream science. But you are not, so if you want to make an impact I advise you to be extra careful to actually do what everyone should be doing (but few people do), in particular:

• Use a clear and unambiguous writing style
• Never lump together no-brainers and potentially controversial edits into one
• Be rigorous in quoting sources, and use the best quality sources you can find (peer-reviewed history journals might help, for instance)
• Mark controversial edits clearly as such (your edit summary in science, for instance, should have contained the word "astrology")
• Avoid interpretation (like calling mainstream scientists "conventional thinkers") and focus on verifiable facts

I hope you will stick around. WP needs editors who challenge convential wisdom. Just play by the rules, even if others don't. Good luck. Algae 14:07, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Good advice. Thanks Algae.Theo 13:11, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Kepler

I've reverted your recent edits to Kepler. While I appreciate you point about the importance of astrology, this article was already clear about it being a significant part of Kepler's professional work. Many of the people in the article (Tycho, Galileo) were also astrologers, but in the context of this article "astronomer" or "astonomer/astrologer" are fine concise descriptions the way they are, and should not be simply replaced with "astrologer." Replacing "Lutheran mathematician, astrologer and astronomer" with simply "astrologer" is the kind of edit that requires discussion and consensus. I hope you will try to contribute something substantial (and sourced) to Kepler article, but please visit the talk page to argue your point before making any more such changes.--ragesoss 14:44, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the edit that was reverted is better since my last addition. Thanks.Theo 04:09, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Science

I've reverted your edits on Science. I appreciate your interest in this article, but you should cite your information from a reputable scientific source. Please do not simply add your information back into the article. Revert wars are unproductive and waste Wikipedia's resources. --huwr 05:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I have added sources. My interest in the article is the same as yours I hope - honest, direct, and without the conventional view posing as THE view. I disagree with this. There are more points on the circle than one. I would suggest that what you call "reputable scientific source" is POV subject to those who would cause revert wars - something I abhor, but which seems to be rampant on Wikipedia due to some who think re-writing history using POV and picking "sources" that fit into their own POV is reputable. I disagree. The history is there, and suggest it be added in a neutral manner, yes, but not when it is subject to one's POV and there's plenty of that going around on many topics. Thanks.Theo 10:48, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Reason for reverting Saturn

Reversion

Hexagon at Saturn's pole: I can't see it on Cassini images, and you haven't provided any sources for this observation. Even if this has been noted elsewhere, it is hardly striking.

I suggest you look harder. Cassini was not the only probe sent to Saturn, you do know this?Theo 10:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Galileo as Italian Astrologer: There's no need to note it in the Saturn article, and even then, he's considered an Astronomer.

By whom? Galileo was, foremost, an astrologer. It took the Vatican nearly 400 years to apologize to him for practicing it. Suggest you give the man a break too, ok? I also suggest you read his astrological works before going around stating what he is considered by, and by whom. Let history speak for itself and let's avoid the POV that wants to avoid astrology like it is a sickness. Read the history, and let the facts speak for themselves, ok?Theo 10:51, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Let's hope you're not headed for another 3RR.

Wikipedia has been having technical problems - suggest that it get fixed since one edit turns into more than one because of the Wikipedia is having Technical problem page coming up when an article is being edited.Theo 10:53, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

JamesHoadley 05:20, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me? Listen, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a game, ok. Suggest you find your images of Saturn's north pole. As for Galileo, other astrologers/astronomers are noted for their nationality/culture (see Copernicus, Brahe).Theo 05:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Theo, if you make the claim, it is up to you to provide the evidence. That after all is how science operates. As for Galileo being an astrologer, he was certainly more than that, so your wording is misleading. Assuming he was an astrologer - that needs to be hammered out in the Galileo article before being quoted elsewhere. kwami 06:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Assuming Galileo was an astrologer? Are you serious? Please, get real and study the history first. Obviously, you have a preconceived notion about how "science operates" and your statements here indicate a conventional view that is not the ONLY view of science. Jeez! Assuming Galileo was an astrologer! You get your own evidence on Galileo being an astrologer. How old are you?Theo 06:10, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

My dear Glaucon, he who asserts must prove. Do so. Jim62sch 20:17, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

That works both ways.Theo 03:36, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Seems to me you cannot discern who has asserted. Simply put, you did. In fact, you give the impression of being the Rush Limbaugh of astrology and other related pseudosciences - big on bluster, short on proof, full of venom and puerile insults. Moreover, this little habit of crowing "look it up yourself" is certainly not what one might expect from someone who claims to be a writer, my dear Glaucon. Jim62sch 10:37, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Your impression is in error Jim. My knowledge on these subjects is not "bluster" and I suggest you review your own comments for "puerile insults"... as you throw out these one-liners yourself. As for "the little habit of crowing look it up yourself" - I mean it - it is called research - try it. And the history is there. Suggest you replace your POV with checking facts, and opening your eyes, rather than asking someone to think for you. Think for yourself by allowing your mind to be open, and free, skeptical, by all means, but without the "puerile insults" you use yourself but see in everyone else who does not share your un-informed POV.Theo 10:43, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, now I have seen the light, any (alleged) POV that does not agree with yours is uninformed. Okey-dokey. As for the rest, I stand by what I said. Another aside, I'm well aware of what research is, but you don't seem to be aware that any true scientist will show his proofs, not merely spout off alleged factoids devoid of any reference. Once the scientist has done that, the process of research via a peer-review begins. Jim62sch 11:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

history of mathmatics

Sorry to doubt you but I was ignorant of the connection between astrology and the early history of mathmatics before now. David D. (Talk) 05:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

That's ok David, at least you are honest enough to say so. That's light years better than some who want to rewrite history to fit their own POV.Theo 05:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• You are aware that the light year is a measure of distance, right? One would hope that someone professing knowledge of the stars would know something about the distances between them. — ₀₉₁₈^BRIAN • 2006-01-8 05:56

Obviously Brian, you seem to know much about light years, but very little on good manners. Suggest you begin there first and remember that snobbishness, rude comments, and a poor overall attitude is not akin to being an honest writer, or scientist. If you must be rude, I suggest you not write to me because I am busy, and yes, light years away from your unprofessional, and immature comments. Try being a good Wikipedian.Theo 06:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

)

Algorithm

Your changes to algorithm have been reverted. While they are correct, the fact that al-Khwarizmi was a astrologer is already mentioned in his biography and not very relevant in the algorithm article. Cheers, —Ruud 12:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll agree with Ruud here. al-Khwarizmi's work as a mathematician is germane to the topic of Algorithm. His work as an astrologer is not. /* Pradeep Arya 14:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC) */

I suggest you read Boyers' History of Mathematics, and realize that al-Khwarizmi's main work was as an astrologer - which means that he was a mathematician. Suggest you study the facts of the history and not your POV.Theo 14:46, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure to which POV you are referring, please elucidate. That said, I seem to understand you saying "astrologer equals mathematician". Even if that were true in al-Khwarizmi's time, it certainly isn't true in our time. We need to write Wikipedia for people to understand it today with the way they use language today (not as language was used in al-Khwarizmi's time). /* Pradeep Arya 15:03, 9 January 2006 (UTC) */

I reverted your most recent changes to Algorithm, please see Talk:Algorithm. /* Pradeep Arya 15:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC) */

Look, up until the 19th century many if not most scientific and historical figures believed in astrology. Why? Because they were ignorant of the truth (no, this is not POV, this is simple fact); they were ignorant of cosmology, they were ignorant of astrophysics, genetics, biology, geology, chemistry, etc. (Yes, yes, Newton believed in astrology, but he was a man of his times and a little nuts toward the end). Al-Khwarizmi's astrological beliefs are irrelevant to his work as a mathematician. He is not remembered (by most) for his astrology, but for his mathematics.

Furthermore, what would be far more impressive would be if you were to find a living leading scientist in any field of real science who believed in astrology. The past is nice, and those who refuse to study it are doomed to repeat it, but the present is pretty damned important as well as, to use a trite saying, the present is the future's past. Jim62sch 22:11, 9 January 2006

(UTC)

Let me answer this way: people who have a "problem" with astrology - often, and I mean OFTEN do not know that astrology is a science. Many who are detractors have not studied it, nor practiced it, and when they "offer" their views, it is from a state of ignorance, not knowledge. Moreover, every time a bridge is passed, more so-called "qualifications" come - such as your statement aboce that says to find a "living leading scientist in any field" as if this is going to cover every scientist on the planet. Get real. I suggest you actual show some knowledge of scientific - not "sun-sign" - astrology to be able to hold an intelligent, informed conversation, or debate on the subject, rather than standing as a statue on your single point-of-view, making assumptions stated as fact on a subject you have not studied to be able to offer an intelligent opinion. Suggest you take your own advice about the past - you should study it, and what you will find about serious astrology will open your eyes, and perhaps your mind, that is, if you are honest enough as a scientist to put your preconceived views aside and practice "science" as a verb, rather than a dull noun. Explore, openly, and discover and perhaps the truth will set you free.Theo 11:01, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The truth has already set me free. Scientific astrology is an oxymoron. And one little note about me, I'm a skeptic in the true sense of the word. I look into an issue quite extensively before making a decision as to its level of validity. If you wish to believe in and practise astrology you are more than welcome to do so -- it's your right as a human. But don't try to sell me on it and don't assume that I know nothing about it.

Not trying to "sell" you anything. And, I can only assume what you know about astrology from your writings here. If you profess knowledge of it, then, by all means, say so, and let's talk about it. I am quite versed in it as well, and practice it professionally, and teach on the subject. So, please, offer your knowledge of astrology here. It is very welcome.Theo 11:25, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

You also obviously missed my point regarding finding a leading scientist who believes in astrology. Jim62sch 11:12, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

As for your other statement Jim, I would have to respectfully disagree. Quite a bold statement to say that these historical figures were ignorant of the truth. What truth are you referring to? Re/ Al-Khwarizmi - suggest you actually read his many books before making such loose statements as astrology being irrelevant to his work. How is that so? Mathematics is critical to astrology - not secondary to it - but primary in caluclations of the celestial bodies relative to the Earth. There are scientists who also practice astrology. Belief is not required. As for the "past" - in many other areas - it is called history - and it is relevant.Theo 04:16, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not that bold of a statement, really. There is a large gulf between what is known today and what was known even 100 years ago. Ignorant in this sense merely means that they did not have this information at their disposal, not that they were benighted.

Yes, mathematics is critical to determining the position of celestial bodies, and yes many Arab mathematicians used math primarily to assist them in determining the dates of specific events related to Islamic celebrations, but it is the math that has made its impact felt on the world not the why or how they developed it.

Well, that sure is one way of saying it. I disagree. The Islamic astrologers did much, much more than use math to assist them in determining dates of events related to their celebrations. They forecast the future using astrology, improved stellar calculations by applying Hindu astrological mathematical techniques, algebra, trig, and named many of the fixed stars we continue to use today. Algebra was applied as a shorthand by astrologers, to shorten the lengthy calculations they made in developing ephemerides. Many planetary calculations involved numerous variables, and algebra was a way to cut down on the mathematical work. These Hindu, and Arabic astrologers also wrote extensive, and I mean extensive, astrological treaties. These texts were written after the fall of the Roman empire, and during the Dark Ages of Europe. They were later translated into Latin, and disseminated throughout the western world. This led to the Renaissance, and the re-emergence of astrology in Europe, where leading lights such as Brahe, Copernicus, Kepler, etc., took the lead in postulating the nature of the cosmos, and defining universal laws. Remember, the Age of Reason, or "rationalization" of science is fairly recent, and led only to defining that which can be weighed and measured, but I do not state here that this is the only "proof" of anything. Love, for instance, cannot be measured, or weighed, but, it does exist, does it not? Or, when I ask you: do you love your wife, or your mother, or your children, and you answer, "yes" and then I say, "prove it" - well, this is the same kind of stance conventional science has taken with astrology, and many other subjects it claims are things that cannot be proved by them. I disagree with this view, since rationalization is only one form of investigation in science - not THE only form. Just because the last 100 years has shown a huge leap of technical advancement, via the use of machines, to weigh, and measure, and calculate, does not allow for a philosophy of it to dominate and determine what "science" is - or to use one philosophical form of "scientific evidence" to state conclusively what is real and what is not real. I reject that view. Remember what Shakesphere, (Francis Bacon) another astrologer, by the way, wrote, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Theo 11:33, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, speaking of bold statements, we have this: "There are scientists who also practice astrology". Who? Are there leading scientists along the lines of a Hawking, or a Shirakawa, or a Witten, or a Kohn, or a Rao, etc., who practice astrology (and yes, a belief in astrology is a prerequisite for practising it, just as a belief in a religion is a prereq for practicing the religion).

I purposefully did not use the word history, as an item from the past is not history until it is studied.

As for any influence that celestial bodies might have on us, I note that the computer you are sitting in front of has a greater gravitational effect on you than does Jupiter. Besides, I view astrology the way I view biorhythms and religion: one is free to believe whatever one wishes if it in some way provides them with a sense of fulfillment. Just don't try to claim that the basis for the belief is factual.

Well Jim, I suggest that perhaps you might want to take a look at what you think the defintion of "astrology" is. I am as hostile to those who practice astrology as a silly game, as I am to those who state such "facts" on scientific astrology without direct knowledge of the subject themselves. Both are in error. In fact, Jupiter's magnetic effect on the Earth is second only to that of the Sun, which is, as you know, a giant magnet with a plasma core. We see this from the space weather and how ions, protons, electrons, seriously impact the Earth's atmosphere. At least the U.S. Navy takes it seriously enough to monitor space weather. Moreover, as your must know, there is quite a stir going on about Jupiter & Saturn's north poles. The solar system, fixed stars, and planets have a direct influence on the Earth - and I suggest that just because conventional science does not have the tools and instruments yet to "prove" this - does NOT make these effects any less true. That is the problem with "science" as it is practice today. Moreover, I would like you to understand that the hexagon image on Saturn's north pole is REAL, and as well, the image on Jupiter's north pole - both emit powerful radio and X-ray emissions. Saturn's north pole contains a perfect hexagon. Are you aware of the Meson Octet? I suggest that science, as practiced now, conventionally, is seriously setting itself up for failure due to closed minds. On your view of astrology - suggest you actually monitor the daily transits of the planets and fixed stars relative to the Earth and make observations before believing ANYTHING. Remember, the Sun, Moon, etc., do not require anyone's belief to have an impact on the Earth. Belief is personal - first, add to your knowledge, observe from a neutal point of view, and gather as much information and knowledge as you can before setting your "beliefs" in stone - especially on the subject of serious astrology Jim.Theo 11:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I assume you've used Newton's laws on gravity to explain this, yes? Of course, as far as a reason the earth goes around the sun, poor old Newton has been discarded, but the rest of the theory, regarding the diminishing effect of gravity (the weakest by far of the four forces) based on its distance holds up pretty well.

As for the rest, sorry, but it's just too silly to take seriously. Even if the hexagonal shapes were real, what would they mean? As for the mysterious electro-magnetic emmisions, the sun does the same thing. So does the Earth. The point? As for monitoring the transits of the stars and planets, all that would do is to prove to me that the earth does indeed rotate, that's it. Jim62sch 00:58, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy

Please read up on WP:3RR, WP:NPOV and WP:V. —Ruud 09:42, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been temporarily blocked for violating the three revert rule on Algorithm and Astrology. Please feel free to return after the block expires, but also please make an effort to discuss your changes further in the future. --BorgQueen 10:07, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. It would be nice if some Wikpedians would actually use the Talk Pages rather than iniating revert wars. Also suggest BorgQueen, that you not play "favorites" concerning violations of 3RR. Sugget again, to you, that you check to see what technical issues may be happening before jumping the gun. Also, again, I request that Wikipedia's technical page problems be addressed during edits, as one edit turns into three when the save page button in activated. This is the second time this has happened; however, presumptions are made. Suggest that checking the technical issues precede blocks of users. Ask them what is happening, remind them of the 3RR policy, and email users about possible technical probles. This would cut down on the blocks, save time, and highlight technical problems such as the frequent Wikipedia Technical Problem page appearing after the save page button is pushed. This has happened several times already, and I request that it is addressed. Thanks.Theo 01:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Just like the last time you made this strange excuse, Theo, the facts do not back up your beliefs. (A pattern?) Go look at the history of the Algorithm page. You made four reverts, not in a matter of minutes or seconds, but over the course of 19 hours. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is surely on the cutting edge of Wiki technology here, a single button click allowing a user to violate 3RR in two different articles over the span of 19 hours. They should really patent this thing. Remember, "It's not a [technical problem], it's a feature!" /* Pradeep Arya 12:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC) */

"some Wikpedians would actually use the Talk Pages rather than iniating revert wars"

I placed the Mathematician / Astrologer section on the Algorithm talk page. Some Wikipedians were trying to use the talk page (i.e.: me and many others on Algorithm). No "revert war" took place; rather one Wikipedian violated the 3RR and was properly sanctioned by BorgQueen for doing so.

BorgQueen, that you not play "favorites" concerning violations of 3RR

There was only one Wikipedian who violated the 3RR. Kinda makes it hard not to play favorites, doesn't it? (In the way that my favorite brother is also my only brother.) BorgQueen handled with situation with speed, accuracy, and tact. You should thank your lucky stars such a considerate admin handled this, there are some others who would not be so forgiving.

Wikipedia's technical page problems ... one edit turns into three

Bologna (patent nonsense), for reasons given by Bunchofgrapes above. (In short: One edit turns into three spaced over 19 hours?)

remind them of the 3RR policy

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a babysitter, please take some responsibility for your own actions. Suggest you use astrology to predict when you might be in danger of violating the 3RR.

Theo, I had sympathy for you. That's why I put Mathematician / Astrologer on the Algorithm talk page and requested protection for Algorithm so you'd get your fair shake even though I disagreed with you. However, my sympathy has been exhausted; shirking your responsibility and blaming BorgQueen, blaming Wikipedia's technical problems, blaming the good faith editors at Algorithm, is too much for me. Suggest you take a good long look in the mirror. /* Pradeep Arya 12:08, 11 January 2006 (UTC) */

Suggestion seconded. There is more to be learned by looking inside than by looking outside. Jim62sch 00:45, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

More Wikipedia policy

Do not remove messages from your talk page (see WP:UP). —Ruud 13:29, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.Theo 01:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)