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Should the page "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" be moved to "Elizabeth II"? DrKiernan (talk) 08:44, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Previous discussions

Statement by DrKiernan

The page should be moved to "Elizabeth II".

Supporting arguments

Per policy at Wikipedia:Article titles#Common names: it is the commonest unambiguous name used in most english-language reliable sources.
In the case of Elizabeth II, disambiguation from other monarchs or articles by adding "of a Country" is unnecessary: Elizabeth II is the prime use of that term, and the suggested location is a redirect to the current title.
Uniquely, Elizabeth II has been Head of State of 32 independent countries. No other person in history has ever held the office in so many separate nations. The current article title chooses one of these in preference to the others. Some editors perceive this as non-neutral. Per Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Article titles where disputes arise over the neutrality of article titles, "the common English language name as found in verifiable reliable sources" should be used.
In 1953, separate titles were adopted for each of the Queen's realms, so she is "of Australia" in Australia, "of Canada" in Canada, etc. The article titles relating to British monarchs already reflect changes in the styles of the monarch. Prior to the Union of the Crowns, monarchs are "of Scotland" or "of England". After the Act of Union 1707, monarchs are "of Great Britain". After the Act of Union 1800, monarchs are "of the United Kingdom". There is no inconsistency if article titles also reflect changes in the styles of the monarch since 1953.
The main argument against the move is adherence to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Sovereigns guideline, but the guideline is advisory only and supports exclusions where necessary or appropriate, such as the List of rulers of Lithuania, List of Polish monarchs, and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Single name.

Supporting evidence

Survey of reliable sources

Media

Canada

Ireland

Irish Times: Elizabeth II 438, Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom 0

United Kingdom

United States

Encyclopaedias

International organisations

Users who endorse this statement

DrKiernan (talk) 08:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Kittybrewster ☎ 09:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
dramatic (talk) 09:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
—what a crazy random happenstance 09:29, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Darwinek (talk) 09:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's get this done then sort out a naming policy - D B D 09:55, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Let's get this over with. --~Knowzilla ^(Talk) 11:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Add disambiguation if necessary AJRG (talk) 11:57, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A sensible move. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:21, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Johnbod (talk) 12:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

I thought we had already been through this on the page and there was no consensus. Why are we polling again? Why is only one side being presented? What is going on? --Snowded ^TALK 10:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I assume anyone else can present their own proposals here. Peter jackson (talk) 10:23, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. DrKiernan (talk) 10:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We are polling on this again because

There has never been consensus to change this, as the number of discussions above show.
There is no consensus to change it now.
A handful of ideologues cannot stand (2). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When about two-thirds of participating editors support the move and the arguements are favour are much more than those against, the article should stay where the minority prefers it to be? --~Knowzilla ^(Talk) 11:10, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Without (yet) getting into the larger question, I want to dispute DrKiernan's point 3. It is untrue that the number of places of which Elizabeth II has been head of state is somehow unique. A number of early modern rulers have had comparable number of realms they ruled - Philip II of Spain, for instance, or Emperor Charles VI. Even beyond that, I'm not really clear on what the argument is here. It's okay to have Charles III of Spain because he "only" ruled two other kingdoms (Naples and Sicily) and a duchy (Parma & Piacenza) before inheriting Spain, but it's not okay to have Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom because she has been queen (in a much less meaningful way) of many more countries? What kind of argument is that? john k (talk) 12:32, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Septentrionalis

The reason for the present article title is threefold:

Most European monarchs have a most common name which is profoundly ambiguous. See Henry IV for a standard example: a King of England, a King of France, a Holy Roman Emperor, and a dozen lesser princes are all called Henry IV. None of them are primary usage, so they are disambiguated: Henry IV of England, Henry IV of France, Henry IV, Holy Roman Emperor....
The result of this is a de facto naming convention, which applies, and must apply, to 95% of Western European monarchs.
By WP:Article titles, one of major our objectives in titling articles is consistency: there is no reason for readers and editors to wonder why the monarchs since the Act of Union change from George I of the United Kingdom to Elizabeth II. Since this title is equally precise, equally recognizable (no one has ever contended that there is any doubt who the subject of this article is), and so on, we use it.

This is disruptive fulmination, by those who had no consensus last month, to have a discussion away from the regular channels of WP:RM. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 10:54, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

It was ArbCom that suggested moving to an RfC and away from RM.[1] DrKiernan (talk) 11:04, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That is a double falsehood, as that diff makes clear. An RfC is a proper proceedure; but it was suggested by Bobby Tables, not by ArbCom. Nobody, furthermore, suggested an RfC in a walled garden, where nobody but a preselected handful would find it.

If this is merged to Talk:Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom - and the assumption that WP:Common names is the whole of our title policy is dropped - I will consider this as though it had been proposed in good faith. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 11:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Click on "What links here". The page is extensively linked from elsewhere and is listed in all the appropriate locations. Your personal attack is unwarranted. DrKiernan (talk) 11:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Once more into the breach dear friends

I will reply to Dr Kiernan's point in turn:

1. "Common name" is not at all the same as "most common unambiguous name", there are numerous people where the two are not identical, e.g. Nelson, Marlborough, Montrose, Prince Andrew. I would be prepared to bet you money that her common name in UK media sources is "the Queen", and quite possibly "the present Queen" and "Queen Elizabeth" are more common than "Elizabeth II" or "Queen Elizabeth II".

2. The logic of that argument could be to remove the pre-emptive disambiguation "of Country" from all monarchs where this is unnecessary. Are you proposing this, if so this should be raised at WP:NCROY, and if not why not? Such a proposal is not unworkable, although on balance I would be against it, for reasons I could go into.

3. We have a well-established naming convention that in cases of monarchs of multiple countries they are named after the country which they are most closely associated with. This applies to several monarchs, there is nothing historically unique about the situation with the Commonwealth Realms at present, if you look at recent discussions at WP:NCROY Talk page you will see that this idea was basically shot down in flames, the number of countries is beside the point. Are you proposing a coherent alternative naming convention here, if so it should be raised at WP:NCROY, and what is it?

4. This begs the question of how you propose to refer to British monarchs between the Union of the Crowns in 1603 and the Union of the Parliaments in 1707, at present they are at "of England".

5. Lithuania is a special case because, as the naming convention makes clear, its monarchs have a different namestock from other European countries. In my view the naming of Polish monarchs is a mess, and most of these articles should be brought into line with the standard naming convention. PatGallacher (talk) 11:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1. Those alternatives are ambiguous, and hence unsuitable.

2–5. I think changes to other pages should be discussed at those pages. DrKiernan (talk) 12:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is the biggest argument against this proposal I think. I've been saying for a while now that I'd be up for a general proposal to changing the naming guidelines for all monarchs to remove pre-emptive disambiguation. I'm not up for carving out a special exception for Elizabeth II, and I'm particularly opposed to doing so based on a premise (that it is somehow POV to single out the UK) that I reject. john k (talk) 12:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 126: / Line 126: @@
 :1. Those alternatives are ambiguous, and hence unsuitable.
 :2–5. I think changes to other pages should be discussed at those pages. [[User:DrKiernan|DrKiernan]] ([[User talk:DrKiernan|talk]]) 12:08, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
+::This is the biggest argument against this proposal I think.  I've been saying for a while now that I'd be up for a general proposal to changing the naming guidelines for all monarchs to remove pre-emptive disambiguation.  I'm not up for carving out a special exception for Elizabeth II, and I'm particularly opposed to doing so based on a premise (that it is somehow POV to single out the UK) that I reject. [[User:John Kenney|john k]] ([[User talk:John Kenney|talk]]) 12:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)