Talk:Boxer Rebellion

• Talk:Boxer Rebellion/Archive1
• Talk:Boxer Rebellion/Archive2

Gods and ghosts

庚子国乱的反思 义和拳到底是什么？凤凰网历史专稿

如要理解百年前此等至为乖谬血腥之事，务必从义和拳的“神鬼”观念入手。在当时中国人的眼中，洋人的长相、行 为举止都古怪非常，他们就像马戏团里的小丑或者各种各样的木偶，是些可以用来吓唬小孩的鬼怪。在拳民的眼中，洋人和中国人不是同类，他们得罪了上天，是制 造旱灾的罪魁祸首，唯有扫除洋人，上苍才会降下甘霖。对于中国的教民，尽管拳民们也意识到他们是自己的同类，因而教民背教便可留下性命，如果违抗不遵，便 是异类，杀之无罪。义和拳的“降神附体”仪式更是加强了这种“神鬼”观念，大学士徐桐就说过，“拳民神也，夷人鬼也，以神击鬼，何勿胜之有？”由此，在群 体性的狂暴力量下，拳民们屠戮传教士和教民们非但没有负罪感，反有替天行道、为民除害的正义感。

Above Chinese text will be translated when have more time. See Gweilo, Racism in the People's Republic of China, Jade Emperor, Guan Yu#Worship of Guan Yu, zh:神打, Firewalking

义和拳被美化甚至被神化主要在文革时期，当时甚至提出，“对义和团采取甚么态度、如何评价其在中国历史上的地 位，成了衡量人们是否忠于革命、是否对祖国忠诚的标准”。这种以感性替代理性、政治宣传代替历史真相的思维方式走的是一条“爱国主义”的歪路，是极其荒诞 而有害的。事实上，在中国近现代史上，论愚昧、偏激和狂躁的程度，能与义和拳相提并论的，唯有文革。由此，义和拳被戴上了“反帝”、“人民运动”等光环也 就无甚稀奇了。 庚子国乱的反思 义和拳到底是什么？

Arilang ^talk 04:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Section to be moved

I think the "Conflicting depictions of the Boxers" section should be moved to the Righteous Harmony Society article (which needs a major rewrite/expansion, BTW). JJ Georges (talk) 08:50, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

The reader of this article needs to know the controversies, so it seems most useful to leave it here. In the meantime, the Righteous Harmony article does not seem to me to be needed at all. ch (talk) 19:01, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

It is needed : what is known as the Righteous Harmony society had a relatively complex history (it was not a "village sect", more an ensemble of village sects and secret societies), which is not developed at all in the current version of the article. I plan to do so when I have more time, as there is some available material to do so. Moreover, it is normal that the belligerents of the article should have their distinct article. JJ Georges (talk) 10:09, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

War reparations

I put the amount of war reparations paid by China in modern value, based on the data of the Wikipedia's article Tael, because for the readers it is easier to understand than when the amount are put in ancient values. Zimbres (talk) 04:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Dagu (Taku) Forts

Somebody posted a picture with a caption stating the the Chinese won the battle of the Taku Forts. That's incorrect. Also, what was "Taku" in 1900 is "Dagu" in modern day transliteration of Chinese.Smallchief 01:57, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Warning- this article is not a place to spew anti Manchu propaganda

Some users have succesfully derailed this article into an anti manchu rant, especially the section on the depictions of the boxers. It seems as though the user is trying to deliberately ignore the Westerner's war crimes, and make it seem as though the boxers and Manchus were evil incarnated, and that everything was the Manchu's fault, the opium war has absolutely nothing to do with this article..Дунгане (talk) 23:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think the recently added content has too much emphasis on the "heroic" nature of the Manchu Army, the Muslim Army, the Han Army. Let me put it this way, according to Professor Yuan Weishi, official Chinese school textbooks are not trustworthy. User:Дунгане, lets have a good discussion and try to turn this article into a more balance, and well structured article, in good faith. Arilang ^talk 23:11, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

http://vip.book.sina.com.cn/book/chapter_37281_20495.html

刘孟扬《天津拳匪变乱纪事》，载《义和团》。 --杀洋人，灭洋教。帝国的农民们认为自 己是"神" Deity，洋人和教民是"鬼" Gweilo ，这是一场"神鬼之战"--杀人的和被杀的双方都已经 被帝国的农民"非人化"了。 Arilang ^talk 23:23, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

• 刘孟扬(1877-1943)，字伯年，天津人，回族，是刘清扬(邓颖超战友、中国妇女运动领袖)之兄。他秀才出身，是清末争取“预备立宪”的著名地方人士。1902年《大公报》创立，他受聘为主笔，其间曾发起成立“公益天足社”，宣传废除缠足陋俗。1905年在天津创办《白话报》，曾发表文章抨击袁世凯，有《天津拳匪变乱纪事》等著作。

http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E6%8B%B3%E8%AE%8A%E9%A4%98%E8%81%9E

• 拳變餘聞

類讖語，奧莫能明也。及曹州匪起，今總統袁公方撫山東，獲匪首朱紅燈戮之，時謂應紅燈之讖。然津郡尚無擾也。庚子四五月間，忽傳有紅燈照者，皆十餘齡幼女，紅衣褲，挽雙丫髻，稍長者盤高髻，左手持紅燈，右手持紅巾，及朱色折叠扇，扇股皆朱髹。始老孀設壇授法，集閨女數十輩，環侍受法。四十九日，術成，稱太師姐。轉教他女，術成，持扇自扇，漸起漸高。上躡雲際，擲燈下，其從嫗拾繳壇內。女身植立空際，漸化為明星，較星差大，其光晶晶，或上或下，或近或遠，或攢聚如聯珠，或迤邐如貫魚。津民狂走聚觀，僉雲目睹。有終夜升屋而了者。女子自言，能於空中擲火焚西人之居，呼風助火，焚無餘。津民深信之。入夜，家家懸紅燈，迎紅燈照仙姑也。城內外列炬高懸，若萬星之齊耀，爭傳拳隊所至，紅燈隨之。每焚洋樓，皆言仙姑擲火也。又有沙鍋照者，以饗神團，人挾一鍋，遇拳民戰時，析薪淅米，炊飯饗之。沙鍋僅如巨鉢，自言飯百人不盡。

• 義和拳稱神拳，以降神召眾，號令皆神語。傳習時，令伏地焚符誦咒，令堅合上下齒，從鼻呼吸，俄而口吐白沫，呼曰神降矣，則躍起操刃而舞，力竭乃止。

其神則唐僧、悟空、八戒、沙僧、黃飛虎、黃三太。

• 陈独秀曾在《克林德碑》一文中说，“我国民要想除去现在及将来国耻的纪念碑，必须要叫义和拳不再发生；要想义和拳不再发生，非将制造义和拳的种种原因完全消灭不可。现在世上是有两条道路:一条是向共和的、科学的、无神的光明道路；一条是向专制的、迷信的、神权的、黑暗的道路。”

• 拳匪始於毓賢，成於載漪、剛毅，人所習聞。然最初實為李秉衡。光緒乙未，秉衡撫山東，仇視西人。山東有大刀會主仇西教，秉衡恒獎許之。丁酉十月，大刀會殺二教士，德人請褫秉衡職，不允，轉秉衡川督。德人憾不已，乃命開缺。

Original Boxer text

神助拳　義和團　只因鬼子鬧中原
勸奉教　自信天不信神　忘祖仙
男無倫 女行姦　鬼孩俱是子母產
如不信　仔細觀　鬼子眼珠俱發藍
天無雨　地焦旱 全是教堂止住天
神發怒　仙發怒　一同下山把道傳
非是邪　非白蓮　念咒語　法真言
升黃表　敬香烟 請下各洞諸神仙
仙出洞　神下山　附著人體把拳傳
兵法藝　都學全　要平鬼子不費難
拆鐵道　拔線桿 緊急毀壞大輪船
大法國　心膽寒　英美德俄盡消然
洋鬼子　盡除完　大清一統靖江山
http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/%E7%A5%9E%E5%8A%A9%E6%8B%B3_%E7%BE%A9%E5%92%8C%E5%9C%98_%E5%8F%AA%E5%9B%A0%E9%AC%BC%E5%AD%90%E9%AC%A7%E4%B8%AD%E5%8E%9F

I have not used a single textbook from mainland china, or any chinese source for that matter, while you reference Chinese websites (with .cn domain) and claim that i am the one who is copying PRC textbooks?

One Page 153 of Criitical Zone 3: A Forum of Chinese and Western Knowledge by Professor Douglas Kerr of the University of Hong Kong, it mentions that Dr. Sun Yatsen praised the Boxers for fighting western imperialists.

Also, i specifically mentioned how two Manchu princes, Yikuang, Prince Qing, and Ronglu sabotaged the Chinese army during the war to let the western imperialist powers seize beijing, this is covered extensively in the current article.

the fact is, that Chinese Christains were acting as spies and agents for the western militaries and this is why the Kansu Braves and the Boxers went house to house to eliminate them, because they were providing information to the western miliaries.

And, testimony directly from the westerners and western soldiers fighting in this war state on how the Chinese army was using modern artillery and weapons to systematically destroy and defeat them numerous times, from "Indiscreet Letters from Peking: Being the Notes of an Eye-witness" and " China in convulsion, Volume 2" are eyewitness accounts from westerners in the war that i reference, which stated repeatedly that the Chinese army outgunned, defeated, and used advanced tactics like sniping and hidden artillery to ravage eight nation alliance positions. And since these were primary source, i used "Some did it for civilisation, some did it for their country: a revised view of the boxer war", which is a secondary source by a scholor Jane E. Elliott, and it backs up everything in the primary sources.Дунгане (talk) 00:58, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Дунгане, thanks for your comment, and I shall try my best to put forward my POV, and hopefully we would reach some sort of consensus.

(1) "The Boxer Rebellion, also called The Boxer Uprising by some historians or the Righteous Harmony Society Movement in northern China, was ananti-colonialist, anti-Christianmovement by the "Righteous Harmony Society" (Yìhétuán),[1] or "Righteous Fists of Harmony" or "Society of Righteous and Harmonious Fists" (known as "Boxers" in English), in China between 1898 and 1901. The uprising took place in response to imperialist expansion (into China) involving European opium traders, political invasion, economic manipulation, and missionary evangelism. "

In my opinion, this lead section is straight out of the Propaganda Department of the Communist Party of China, and need to be rewritten. Notice the word "Uprising" (Chinese: 起义) being used, and The uprising took place in response to imperialist expansion (into China) involving European opium traders, political invasion, economic manipulation, and missionary evangelism. , which is full on and pure propaganda stuff, is not of encyclopedic standard.

(1)Now, what exactly was "Boxer" ? Let us look at 拳變餘聞, an article by 羅惇曧 1871年—1924年, who had also written 庚子國變記, and both articles can be found in Chinese wikisource.In 拳變餘聞, 義和拳稱神拳，以降神召眾，號令皆神語。傳習時，令伏地焚符誦咒，令堅合上下齒，從鼻呼吸，俄而口吐白沫，呼曰神降矣，則躍起操刃而舞，力竭乃止。 Now 神拳, is kind of zh:神打, a mix of hypnotic power, magic power, mystic power, Chinese poly-Gods power, in short, a kind of Chinese Kung Fu plus Firewalking show. Their then claims of flying in thin air, immune to bullet or knife assaults, and the ability to summon divine spirit soldiers, are just pure fantasy, the stuff where Hollywood movies were made of.
(2) Quoted from: 拳變餘聞 : 拳匪, 匪, bandits, so in Qing Dynasty time, Boxers were classified as bandits, were to be put down by the then government.
(3) Quoted from: 拳變餘聞 :拳匪始於毓賢，成於載漪、剛毅，人所習聞。Boxer bandits were supported by Manchu officials : 毓賢，載漪、剛毅.
(4) 毓賢命制鋼刃數百柄，分賜拳童，勉以殺洋人。大師兄出入撫署，若貴賓。五月，朝旨令保護教民，毓賢承端剛旨，仍置不問。六月，匪焚教堂，毓賢登高觀之曰：“天意也。”營官將施救，毓賢不許。英教士逃出，號於眾曰：“昔晋省大（旱），吾輸財五六萬，活數千人。今獨不能貸一死耶？”卒戕之。一英婦挾兒出，跪言吾施醫歲活數百人，今請貸吾母子。語未絕，一兵以挺擊之，僕，推置火中，復奮身出，仍推入，與其子同燼焉。毓賢以兵守城門，禁教士出入，復移教士老幼於鐵路公所，以兵守之。他日復驅入撫署，毓賢坐堂皇，命行刑，殺英教男女老幼三十餘人，服役二十餘人，梟首示城門，剖心弃屍，積如丘山。又驅法天主堂教女二百餘人，至桑棉局，迫令背教，皆不從。令斬為首二人，以盎承血，令諸女遍飲，有十六人爭飲盡之。毓賢令縛十六人懸高處，迫其餘背教，皆不從，求死益堅。
Well, Taiyuan Massacre has similar kind of content.

(5) 拳匪之入京師，剛毅實導之。剛毅識字不多，以清正自詡。由部曹外任巡撫，內召為尚書，入樞府，后眷甚隆。奉命江南查案，旋之廣東，斂浮賦，括四百萬，曆東南諸省，括千萬歸於京師。得梁啓超所撰《清議報》，進於孝欽后，后大怒，憤外國之庇康梁，必欲報此仇。益恨德宗，思廢之，立端王載漪之子溥俊為大阿哥，將於庚子正月行廢立，剛毅實主之。

From the above sentence, it is very clear that 剛毅(Manchu official) was the main player in the Boxer Rebellion. Ok, I think we should use the 拳變餘聞 as a source, once we translate it, what do you think? Arilang ^talk 10:42, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

The foreign casualty rate was beyond the 200% mark.

Fascinating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.227.129.233 (talk) 10:26, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Casualties can go beyond 200% because people can get wounded multiple times. This does not mean that the men were somehow ressurected from the dead and killed against if thats what you were thinking.Дунгане (talk) 00:47, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

The statistics kept by the Legation hospital indicate that the casualty rate of the 409 legation guards was 46.5 percent (55 dead and 135 wounded). However, the casualty rate of the 25 Japanese and 47 French guards were 104 and 102 percent respectively, reflecting that some men were wounded twice during the battle. By contrast, the casualty rate of 82 British guards was only 15.5 percent. The 56 American and 81 Russian Guards suffered casualty rates of about 30 percent each. I think it would be accurate to say that the legation guards as a whole suffered heavy casualties -- 46.5 percent. These casualty figures are repeated in nearly every book about the Boxer Rebellion so can be easily verified.

The references cited for the 200 percent casualty rate do not state that casualties were 200 percent. One of them says that casualties were approaching 200 men. Smallchief 01:38, 25 October 2010 (UTC)