Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish American entertainers

List of Jewish American entertainers

List of Jewish American entertainers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log) • Afd statistics

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Non-notable intersection, unlike Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Jewish Nobel laureates, where the intersection is addressed by many reliable secondary sources. By its very nature, this list is a never-ending WP:BLP, WP:NOR and WP:V-violation magnet. I'm also trying to address the larger, systemic issue here; Wikipedia is littered with dozens of these lists, most of which suffer from the same issues; so why do the least problematic of them create such angst, while the most problematic are not seen as a concern? This needs to be addressed in a broad, not narrow, way. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:46, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. —Jayjg ^(talk) 02:04, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Not that I disagree with this nomination but... aren't we cherry-picking here? These pages are not unlike the Nobel Prize list at all. You can probably find more external reading about Jewish American entertainers than Jewish Nobel Prize laureates by a mile. I don't understand why you're using it as an example of a "good list" when all these lists have the same inherent problem -- they synthesize relationships where there are none. It's passive original research. Unless everybody on this list is somehow related to Yiddish theatre or Jewish comedy... their Judaism has no bearing on their careers as entertainers (though conspiracy theorists will have us believe otherwise). Simply because "Look Who's Jewish!" cites somebody as a Jew, doesn't mean we are encyclopedically BOUND to report that, and that applies equally to the Nobel Prize list. Bulldog123 02:29, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm confused; if this list is "not unlike the Nobel Prize list at all", then why aren't you !voting to delete here, but are there? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:35, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
    • I am here, but I'm just stressing that I don't agree with your particular nomination rationale for this one. A "lack of secondary sources" is not the problem if this list were actually about Jewish forms of entertainment (i.e., Yiddish theatre). I say Delete for the reasons listed above, and because this list (as well as List of Jewish actors) ends up being little more than a WP:BATTLEGROUND. Bulldog123 02:40, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Speedy close Violation WP:POINT "When one becomes frustrated with the way a policy or guideline is being applied, it may be tempting to try to discredit the rule or interpretation thereof by, in one's view, enforcing it consistently... Such tactics are highly disruptive and can lead to a block (possibly indefinite) or ban. Wikipedia is not perfectly consistent, and its rules are not a code of law. Issues with rules or practices should be addressed through plain discussion, not through irony or making a game of it." There is no serious suggestion here that WP editors should debate the article mentioned, the nominator is merely trying to make a point about a different AfD he does not like.betsythedevine (talk) 03:25, 26 November 2010 (UTC) As Jayiq asserts that this is a sincere nomination, I am redacting what was my original belief, that he created it to make a WP:POINT.betsythedevine (talk) 04:53, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to have to say that that's utter nonsense. This AfD is in perfectly good faith, about an article that obviously discusses a non-notable intersection. And I notice that you didn't make the same claim when Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic Chinese Nobel laureates was also discussed on the other AfD page, and subsequently nominated for deletion. Please redact your untrue comment, discuss whether you think List of Jewish American entertainers should exist, and please act with more personal consistency in the future. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:37, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I have no interest in this nomination pro or con. From my limited knowledge, religious intolerance once segregated Jewish from "mainstream" entertainers--so being Jewish could well have impacted the entertainment careers of many. I would hope that the article uses some sensible rule about who is Jewish and who is not. I would hope the article shows respect for the wishes of living people at least by making self-identification a test for whether someone is Jewish. But this article is far outside my interests and experience. betsythedevine (talk) 03:51, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

It's odd how you have such a detailed knowledge of, interest in, and vehement opinions about Jewish Nobel Prize winners, but none whatsoever about Jewish American entertainers. One would have thought your lengthy assertions about policy regarding the Jewish Nobel Prize winner list, particularly in relation to BLP, would be equally of concern to you here. Isn't everyone deserving of the same BLP protection? These continuing inconsistencies are troubling. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:55, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

It's odd how you consider my invocation of policy about WP:POINT as a personal attack, but don't consider it a personal attack to throw around speculative comments about my motivation and the shocking inconsistency that I fail to edit many articles that might have BLP issues. You can see from my contribution list that I often edit articles of scientists, rarely those of entertainers. My interest in List of Jewish Nobel laureates originated in the repeated efforts by some to use it to tag Andre Geim as unmodifiedly "Jewish." To clear up another matter that seems to trouble you, I remembered reading a Feynman statement that seemed apropos and was gratified to find it today as the first google hit for "Feynman Judaism." betsythedevine (talk) 04:27, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

I've neither made any comments about your motivation, nor claimed that it is a "schocking inconsistency that [you] fail to edit many articles that might have BLP issues". I've also never felt nor expressed any "trouble" about the "matter" of Feynman's statement. I read your comments with increasing dismay, because it almost seems as if you've just skimmed my comments, picking out individual words, without actually trying to understand what I've actually written. Falsely claiming I made this nomination as a WP:POINT is a violation of three policies, WP:AGF, WP:NPA, and WP:CIVIL. For what I'm really hoping is the last time, please redact that claim. Jayjg ^(talk) 04:39, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. These lists are a headache. This one is huge, badly organised, dozens or even hundreds of entries are unreferenced ... and which reliable source would compile a list along those principles? Where is the notability of this list concept; how many lists like this exist out there in published sources? It's cruft. --JN466 12:59, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete violates BLPCAT, EGRS, and per Jayjg.--Therexbanner (talk) 19:24, 26 November 2010 (UTC)
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists of people-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:17, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per nominator.--Mbz1 (talk) 03:36, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete I agree with the nominator's arguments. This is yet another dreadful list that should not exist - even if it could somehow be salvaged in part (and I don't think it can), we'd have to have people monitoring it all the time or admit that we can't enforce our BLP policy, let alont NOR, etc. Dougweller (talk) 11:46, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep If this were a list of red-linked non-notables, I might agree with the nominator. But the shear number of blue-links would seem indicative of this list being A) properly sourced and sourcable and B) specifically encouraged by the caveats at WP:LIST. Not wishing to list such notables for our reader's easy navigation does not improve the encyclopedia. And no, I am not Jewish. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 22:36, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

• Delete Per nominator. Would be more viable if there were an independent article on the topic. Plot Spoiler (talk) 19:04, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete long and ungainly list that's just as non-notable an intersection as List of Jewish actors. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 20:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
• I feel the wind on this one. Is there a category "Jewish-American entertainers" ? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 04:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete - per Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates#List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 15:56, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, with the exception that I do think that the Nobel Laureates list ought to be deleted as well and see no difference between the two lists. I'm not sure why an ongoing different AfD is mentioned in this one.Griswaldo (talk) 22:28, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
• Keep - Non-trivial intersection and perfectly allowable under WP:SALAT. What on earth is happening here? Did everyone drink the kool-aid? The criteria for allowable lists are immensely broad, and this one has a clearly defined scope and addresses an area of significant academic interest, namely the role of people of Jewish extraction in the American entertainment industry. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:28, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
• Very strong Keep There are sufficient sources both for individuals and for the general concept. In addition to the ones in the article, there is Jews and American popular culture. / Vol. 1, Movies, radio, and television and Jews and American popular culture. / Vol. 2, Music, theater, popular art, and literature both by Paul Buhle; (Praeger, 2006.) , from a a major social science publisher, There are varying definitions of Jewishness , and the article should therefore being inclusive of sll of them, either self identification, or multiple RSs, not all of which can be Jewish. But that is the reason why the can be a list of notabler entertainers who are jewish--either by religion, ethnicitity, on otherwise, according to their own self-definition or the definitions of other reliable sources . It is every bit as justifiable a list as List of French entertainers or List of French canadian entertainers--two articles that seem to be missing. . The proof of importance othe intersection is that books are written about it. (I think binary intersections for ethnicities and professions do not need proof-- List of Jewish entertainers no more needs proof than List of American Entertainers, but this is a triple intersextion, and we have to show its distinction in the real world. I find it exceedingly strange that we do not have these articles either. there is a great reluctance here to use ethic or national categories for people--and I am at a loss to account for it. Is this a sort of hyper-political correctness, which hopes that all such distinctions should not be talked about, in the presumed hope they will disappear. That's a very narrow view of the world, and, I would say, a biased one. Ethnic and national differences are a very real part of the world and a matter in which we can all take considerable satisfaction, not something we need be ashamed of or avoid. This sort of list is a traditional component of encyclopedias , and we would look very strange without them. I see two editors above arguing about which ethnic group deserves and article here and which does not, One wants Chinese but not Jewish, one just the opposite. These are expressions not of reasoned positions, but of conscious or unconscious bias . This is the most multicultural of all projects,and we should have learnt by now to rise above this sort of old-fadhioned quarrel, and to include every such combination of which there are sufficient people and decent sources. ~