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Welcome to Wikipedia! (and how come nobody told you that before?) Since you are doing great, I won't spam your talk page with bunch of links. Thanks for taking interest in COA. Yes, things should be standartized, but no one seems to have patience to do this. But be bold and do it yourself. So far I see a very promising beginning! Renata3 00:00, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

P.S. it's very nice to see some professors joining the club ;)

Anothe welcome

Welcome!

Hello AndreasJS/Archive1, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your name on talk pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you have any questions, check out Wikipedia:Where to ask a question or ask me on my talk page. Again, welcome! --HappyCamper 18:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

You can't have too many warm welcomes here :-) - hope you find those links useful! --HappyCamper 18:21, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Ancient Greek pronunciation

Thnaks for the warning — I'll have a look at this. Meanwhile I note that the same user has been active (and been reverted) in for instance Voiceless bilabial plosive. --rossb 07:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Modern Greek

Whose rule is it that modern Greek goes first?? Georgia guy 15:37, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Ancient greek subordination rules

I noticed that you moved my work to ancient greek, Thanks, can you help me correct it, write it in more easy to understood english ? KALHMERA Philx Philx 17:56, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the help you will give. I sustain your teory of pronounciation too.I will enter in the discussion, F.S.S.D (Filippus suum salutem dat) Philx Philx 18:54, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Ancient Greek pronunciation

Thank you for visiting Ancient Greek pronunciation. We all know about Vox Graeca. Our problem is that User:Thrax disputes the relevance of this work although it is considered a standard text. In particular, Thrax tries to convince Wikipedia readers that Greek linguists as a whole share his opinion that the mediae were fricatives already in archaic times etc. What we would need is reference to Greek sources regarding the classical pronounciation of classical Attic Greek, in particular the consonants. Apart from scolarly works in Greek, this would also include contributions of Greek linguists in international scientific journals and at international conferences that cover the subject of classical Greek phonology. Andreas 20:26, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes. He's wrong and you're right. My note on VG was an attempt to word this more politely :) I'm afraid I don't have insight into Greek works. I come to the subject through Indo-European comparative linguistics. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 20:32, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Likewise, I'm afraid that I can't help with this one. But I note you've added a bibliography to the talk page; I wonder if any of the works listed would cover this area? --rossb 21:44, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

andreas, I agree with you, modern greek is the same language of ancient greek, in fact i have studied ancient greek on likeo and i can sya that the distance between hellenistic greek and modern greek is the same as first medieval italian(see tacito capuano) and modern italian, they are mutually intellegible using the same pronounciacion, latin and italian is a more complicate matter, because latin has never been a language spoke by normal peaople was only the language of litterature and intellectual speaking, so volgar latin and moder italian can be defined as same language, they had same rules same word except of declension, but italian has got too some declnsion. Wikipedia is, as you said vulnerable to ideoligis, ottuse ideologist who try to impose thir point of view, beta eta upslion and other were pronuced i can say, at least since 300bc as b, è, y, they became fricatives later, latin transcription are lampant examples of the correct pronounce, ex : βασιλισκος, basiliscus. ευβεα, eubeae, and so on. P.S is πατερ ημων.

F.S.S.D Philx Philx 22:09, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

DE GREACA ALLOCUTIONE DISPUTANDO

Well it is ημων becaus it is Pater nostrum if it were υμων it would pater vestrum that means father of you, not of us, besides this, I have contacted my anciernt greek teacher she said that eta beta upsilon and othear had to be pronounced this way in orer to understand and decifre the the speech, imagien that umon and emon are pronounced in the sameway, how can a person understand if it is us or you? It is a logical exemplum. F.S.S.D Philx Philx 22:43, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

More on ancient pronuncation

Please see my note to MATIA+. I would like to think that better documentation and more sources would discourage Thrax from his insistence on his position, but if you look over the Talk, he does not address most objections cogently. He also has some bizarre bee in his bonnet about the English, as though their view on ancient pronunciation was any different from the Germans, etc. Part of this is probably confusing between the practical teaching pronunciation and the reconstructed pronunciation, but not all. And he claims that Hatzidakis, Babiniotis, and Petrounias aren't "mainstream". If the prof. of linguistics at the Univ. of Athens isn't mainstream, who is? --Macrakis 22:52, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Hello! I have some notes from the web at my talk page, along with Macrakis notes. I'm about to take a wikibreak but I hope I'll get involved with that wiki afterwards. Erasmus' theory seems to be the majority view for the scientific community but I'd like to search more about these. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 11:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

It is not quite right to call the current linguistic reconstruction "Erasmian", for two reasons. First, some things are now reconstructed a bit differently from Erasmus. Secondly, "Erasmian" is usually used as the name of the practical teaching pronunciation (with phi as f etc.). And indeed Erasmus's original work on this talked about not only what was historically likely, but what is practical. --Macrakis 17:42, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Andreas I'm not a linguist, I have knowledge of acient greek from high school and some from college but it isn't my job, I'm pretty good at translating it but i'm no linguist, the only thing that I can do is finding my prof and get an explanation from him or searching something written around the web, as far i can rember, in college we red ancient greek with erasmian pronounce while the byzantine with modern ones. F.S.S.D Philx Philx 10:25, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Re: Mirrored ariplane image

Well, in a portuguese article the airplane was exiting from monitor. I needed mirrored and manipulate. thanks, see you! --FML 11:16, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

From Macedonian

Hi there. I just answered at your comment. Please see it on my talk page. Hope to hear from you soon. Take care... Macedonian^(talk) 06:47, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Ancient Greek pronunciation again

I wondered why the talk on this had dried up, until I realised that it had been moved to Ancient Greek phonology which I didn't have in my watchlist. You might like to contribute to the ongoing debate, which is now under mediation. --rossb 00:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

The books in question don't seem to be in the British Library or the London Library either. --rossb 12:23, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Re Translation

ok i will translate it and post it to your main page F.S.S.D Philx Philx 11:44, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Ecce Tradutionem, corrected

... i don't translate per entire the names so i put ... Here the translation, in this text, briefly appears the truth about the erasmian pronounciation. First in italian: Certamente Erasmo era stato spinto in questa occasione a scrivere De recte pronunciatione, ritengo che sapesse poco. Sembra che Erasmo abbia posto lo sguardo su questa scheda che ho, scritta a mano da Enrico.... uomo di lettere illustre. In questa scheda vi è scritto " ho sentito M. Ruggero professore di lingua greca nel collegio buslidano, mio precettore , che raccontava che, un tempo, egli avesse abitato con erasmo in un pedagogio a liensi Erasmo viveva nel piano inferiore del collegio,che fosse arrivato Glarum .... e che questi fu invitato nel collegio da Erasmo per pranzo, interrogato da erasmo rispose che (sapendo che Erasmo stesso era credulone e gli piacevano le cose nuove,una storiella ) tutti i madrelingua gerci che arrivavano a lutezia romproveravano gli umoni colti di sbagliare la pronuncia del greco antico. I greci infatti pronunciavano B vita , come beta(meaning that v was pronunced like b ) H ita,come eta (so H was like e) ai per ai(e), oi(i) per oi. Sentito ciò, poco dopo erasmo compone un libretto circa la corretta pronuncia del greco per far credere che lui fosse l'inventore dellla scoperta, e lo portò a Pietro alostes per stamparlo, il quale però, impegnato da latre cose, rifiutò, oppure stampo ò solo ciò che voleva del libretto, nessuno potrebbe dirlo. Erasmo mandò il libro da Basilea a Frobenio, dal quale fu stampato. Appresa la frode, erasmo sconsiglio agli amici sia parenti e a chi conosceva di usare la sua nuova pronuncia.M. Ruggero rese noto il manoscritto dello stesso Erasmo grazie allle formule di pronuncia di Damiano hispanese( che mi sembrano corrette) le quali non differiscono per nulla da quelle di Erasmo, che utilizzano sia i dotti che gli ignoranti di lingua greca. Scritto da Enrico corcopatero 1540 D.C

I will post english translation later cause gotta go work. F.S.S.D Philx Philx 13:33, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Here it follows english translation, the translation is senso de senso no verba de verbo, that means that is more artistic and not too attached to the text, that is as being written in latin , heavy to read and plenty of subordinate clauses, if you want the more text attinent translation it is written in italian use this as guidelin to correct my english mistakes. Surely erasmus was forced in this occasion to write de recte pronutiatione, but i sustain that he knew little about that, it seem like he looke on this text that i've got,written by enric.. in this text is wriiten :i've heard M ruggerus, illustrius litterate and man of culture professor of ancient greek in buslidian university, mine precptor and that told that, he once, lived wih erasmus in a university, and that arrived Glarus, who was invited by erasmus at luch in the universty, interrogated by erasmus he said that (knowing that erasmus himself was gullible, and affiscinated by news , a joke ) all mothertongue greek that arrived in lutezia contested all the maior litterate on how they pronounce greek, sustaining that B was prounced a vita (being written βητα, so v was like b) H ita like eta ai (being e) as Ai and oi,i, as oι. Heard this, erasmus subsequentially wrote a small essay on the correct pronouciation of greek,to make himself the inventor of that. and gave this essay to Pietrus ... to print it, who but was too overstressed by the work and refused to print it or printed a small part of it, anybody would ever know, the book then was sent to frobenius who revealed the truth about the joke, understood the truth, erasmus suggested not to apply his rules of pronunciation written on the essay to everybody he knew, bu M ruggerus, publicated in good faith the rules of erasmus thanks to Damianum hispanes (wich ruels of pronounce with me) wich rules of pronouciation are similiar to erasmian ones, and these are utilized both by illiterate and illiterate on greek language. So in conclusion erasmus publicated , accidentally the correct pronouciation rules of ancient. Written by Henric cocropaeterus (or somethin ) circa 1540 bc. In conclusion erasmus found the correct pratical pronouciation rules thanks a joke. Philx Philx 19:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Re: Spurious edits

Well there's not much you can do about it. 212.205.227.52 is in Athens, Greece and his ISP is OTENET; 195.97.35.129 is also in Athens, but his ISP is Hellas On-Line. 195.220.59.70 is from Toulouse, France and is using a computer belonging to the Université Paul Sabatier. So they are all different people - they all just share a common interest. Izehar 17:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Re: My translation

Well i wrote that glarenus lied to erasmus, and then frobenius told him that was a lie, so my translation isn't correct? Excuse me but is Glareus advocatus fuit erasmo so means tha glarenus was invited by erasmus so glarenus lied. I'm sure (excuse my presumption) that my translation it is correct, so erasmus truly invented the correct pronounciation of ancient greek, so untill 300bc b was b, h was e and so on, if i made mistakes could you please tell me where and of course i will post my translation in support to make reason thrax . Philx Philx 20:54, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Correct ! you made a point! Frobenius was lying, so the modern greek was pronouced as Glarenus told, not the ancient, i've posted something on the dibate that migth be helpufull for all. Philx Philx 21:55, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Let's not forget that this document is much later than the events it describes. Also, without much more context, it is hard to know what its purpose and slant is. The ABCs of interpreting historical documents. --Macrakis 23:24, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

requested translation

Ac Erasmus quidem quâ occasione ad scribendum de rectâ pronunciatione fuerit impulsus, paucis cognitum arbitror.

And even Erasmus was impelled by a certain occasion to write about correct pronunciation, which I understand is known by few.

Itaque visum hâc de adjicere, quod in schedâ quadam habeo, scriptâ olim manu Henrici Coracopetræi, viri egregiè docti, doctisque perfamiliaris.

And so to focus attention on this, which I have in a certain paper, written a long time ago by the hand of Henricus Coracopetraeus, an outstandingly learned man and a friend of learned men.

Ea ita habet: ‘Audivi M. Rutgerum Reschium, professorem Linguæ Græcæ in Collegio Buslidiano apud Lovanienses, meum piæ memoriæ præceptorem, narrantem, se habitâsse in Liliensi pædagogio unà cum Erasmo, plus minus biennio eo superius, se inferius cubiculum obtinente:

It reads thus: ‘I heard M. Rutgerus Reschius, professor of the Greek tongue in the Buslidian College at Leuven, my well-remembered teacher, saying, that he had lived in the Liliese school together with Erasmus, more or less two years before; he having the bedroom below:

Henricum autem Glareanum Parisiis Lovanium venisse, atque ab Erasmo in collegium vocatum fuisse ad prandium:

Yet Henricus Glareanus had come to Paris, and was called by Erasmus into the college for lunch:

quò cùm venisset, quid novi adferret interrogatum, dixisse (quod in itinere commentus erat, quòd sciret Erasmum plus satis rerum novarum studiosum, ac mirè credulum) quosdam in Græciâ natos Lutetiam venisse, viros ad miraculum doctos;

which when he had arrived, and asked him what was new, he said (which he had devised on the way, because he knew Erasmus to be more than zealous enough in new things, and astonishingly gullible) certain people born in Greece to have come to Paris, men marvelously learned,

qui longè aliam Græci sermonis pronunciationem usurparent, quàm quæ vulgò in hisce partibus recepta esset.

who for a long time had made use of another pronunciation of the Greek language, than that which commonly in these parts was accepted.

Eos nempe sonare pro B vita, BETA: pro H ita, ETA: pro ai æ, AI: pro OI I, OI: & sic in cæteris.

Namely, they sounded in place of β vita, BETA; for η ita, ETA; for αι ae, AI; for οι I, OI; and so on and so forth.

Quo audito, Erasmum paulò pòst conscripsisse Dialogum de rectâ Latini Græcique sermonis pronunciatione, ut videretur hujus rei ipse inventor, & obtulisse Petro Alostensi, typographo, imprimendum:

After hearing this, Erasmus not long afterwards wrote his Dialogus de recta Latini Graecique sermonis pronunciatione (Dialogue on the right pronunciation of the Latin and Greek languages), of which he himself, as may be seen, was the inventor, and offered it to the typographer Petrus Alostensis, to be printed:

qui cùm, fortè aliis occupatus, renueret; aut certè se tam citò excudere, quàm ipse volebat, non posse diceret; misisse libellum Basileam ad Frobenium, a quo mox impressus in lucem prodiit.

who, by chance busy with other things, refused it; or surely he said he could not get the type laid out as quickly as he himself wished; he sent the booklet to Froben in Basel, by whom it was soon brought forth, printed, into the light.

Verùm Erasmum, cognitâ fraude, nunquam eâ pronunciandi ratione postea usum; nec amicis, quibuscum familiariter vivebat, ut eam observarent, præcepisse.

In truth Erasmus, having become aware of the fraud, never used this manner of pronunciation afterwards; neither did he teach it to friends, whom he lived with on good terms, when they noticed it.

In ejus rei fidem exhibuit M. Rutgerus ipsius Erasmi manuscriptam in gratiam Damiani à Goes Hispani pronunciationis formulam (cujus exemplar adhuc apud me est) in nullo diversam ab eâ, quâ passim docti & indocti in hac linguâ utuntur’.

Giving credence to this, M. Rutgerus brought forth Erasmus himself's handwritten pronunciation formula for the sake of the Spaniard Damianus à Goes (whose original is still with me) in no point diverging from that which the learned and the uneducated alike make use of in this language.'

[I think this is right, at least in what parts may be in question, and hope it helps.] —Muke Tever talk (la.wiktionary) 04:04, 23 November 2005 (UTC) Sorry , you are right, in fact in italian I wrote, that B sounded like vita, instead of beta, in english i have messed a bit, sorry, for that, but i said tha italian translation was the more attinet to text

Do we have a translation that all agree with? +MATIA ☎ 23:01, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Another translation

Dear Ανδρέας,

Here is my translation. I have tried to keep it as close to the original as possible without making it unreadable in English. There appear to be a couple of small errors in the Latin:

The second sentence begins: "Itaque visum hâc de adjicere," but there is no noun for "hâc" to modify. I think that the missing word is "re," and that it should come after "de."
The date probably should read: "CIƆ IƆ LXIX," or in modern Roman numerals, MDLXIX."

And I believe that the reason why Erasmus was prompted to write about correct pronunciation is known to few people. So I have thought it proper to add on this subject what I have in a paper, written long ago by the hand of Henricus Coracopetraeus, an eminently learned man and a close friend to learned men. It reads thus: "I heard M. Rutgerus Reschius, professor of the Greek language in the Collegium Buslidianum at Leuven, my teacher of blessed memory, tell that he lived in the Liliense School along with Erasmus for two years, more or less. Erasmus occupied the upper bedroom; he, the lower one. Now Henricus Glareanus came from Paris to Leuven and was invited to the college for dinner by Erasmus. When he came and was asked what news he brought, he said (he had made this up on the way, because he knew that Erasmus was excessively fond of new things and amazingly credulous) that certain native Greeks had come to Paris, wonderfully learned men, who used a pronunciation of Greek different by far from what was accepted in these parts. 'Why, they say "beta" instead of "vita" (β), "eta" instead of "ita" (η), "ai" instead of "ae" (αι), "oi" instead of "i" (οι), and so forth.' Shortly after hearing that, Erasmus wrote the Dialogue on the Correct Pronunciation of Latin and Greek, so that he himself would appear to be the discoverer of this fact, and presented it to the printer Peter of Aalst to be printed. When Peter, perhaps busy with other things, refused, or at least said he could not print it as quickly as Erasmus wanted, Erasmus sent the pamphlet to Froben in Basel. It was soon printed by him and published. But Erasmus, when he had learned of the deception, never thereafter used that method of pronunciation, nor did he instruct the friends with whom he lived on intimate terms to adhere to it. As proof of this, M. Rutgerus displayed a rule of pronunciation, no different from that which learned and unlearned men everywhere use in that language, written by the hand of Erasmus himself as a favor to the Spaniard Damião de Góis, a copy of which is still in my possession." Henricus Coracopetraeus Cuccensis. At Nijmegen, 1569, Eve of St. Simon and St. Jude [i.e. October 27].

"Cuccensis" indicates where Coracopetraeus was from, but I have not managed to identify the place, nor his original surname, of which "Coracopetraeus" is a Latinized form.

If anything else remains unclear, please let me know. You are welcome to put my version on the talk page (which, by the way, should have as the section title "De recte Graece loquendo"). Thank you for asking me to translate this very interesting passage!

-- Flauto Dolce 23:29, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

More Þrax stuff

Thank you again for your input into Ancient Greek phonology. Of course, User:Thrax will cite Caragounis as a source for his claim that even Homeric sheep sounded "vee", as he always does. This article has to be entirely rewritten by an expert, and your help would be welcome. Before doing this, we would need some more evidence that Caragounis's hypothesis is not generally accepted, even not in Greece. When we have this, we could proceed to do seriously editing the article. Like with many other theories questioned by ideologists, this will probably need official arbitration, and we should be prepared for this. Andreas 14:02, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I think you are being very generous to Thrax here. His theory that phonetic changes never took place in Greek seems to me about as probable as the theory that the Apollo moon landings never took place. But it would be nice to find some Greek linguists to cite. I doubt I can be of much help, there, though. Good luck. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 14:19, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

No, I'm not enough of an expert either. - Haukur Þorgeirsson 14:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

regarding your latest edits

I must say I am surprised. Please do explain your too bold move. +MATIA ☎ 20:50, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

You may have anticipated my surprise but I didn't expected your bold change. You invited me to join that article, I 've presented the few evidence I found etc, but you must read and understand WP:NPOV. +MATIA ☎ 21:20, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Matia, NPOV clearly states that marginal positions should be given little or no attention. Caragounis is marginal in every way. If there are serious recent sources (not 16th century or 19th century!!) for the modern Greek pronunciation, let's see them. --Macrakis 21:37, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Italian pronunciation of chi

Are you sure they pronounce it IPA [χ], not [kʰ]? Of course, neither one exists in Italian. I've queried philx on his talk page. --Macrakis 00:01, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think so. My guess would be that they can't make a difference between kappa and chi, but maybe they try hard to prounnouce it [x]. Phlix would know, but has trouble explaining it. Andreas 00:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

hello Andreas

I'm afraid I cannot find any books of Symeonides or Andriotes. But I did manage to find a book of Babiniotis on phonetics (or phonology, those two trouble me), Hatzidakis book on Ancient Greek pronunciation, and a couple of other books. I hope I'll be able to write some things about those books during the next days at the talk page of that article. Take care. +MATIA ☎ 22:42, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Andreas,

Not quite sure what you wanted me to take a look at with Ancient Greek phonology. I reverted the last anonymous edit as possible sockpuppetry (the editor is located in London), with a note requesting that the editor sign in, but I don't see anything untoward going on. kwami 06:32, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Agree

Yes, I can agree with you... This really is a cursed issue, but what I want is to state myself ethnically as what I want, just like every other person (or nation) in the world does. I don't mind if someone in Greece (a Greek) calls himself "Macedonian". I want we (Macedonians) to live in peace with all our neighbours (including Greece), and look in the future and leave the past behind us. I'm Macedonian and noone can deny what I like to be. Bomac 17:26, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear Bomac, at Macedonia (Greece) any reference to your people must be disambiguated to help the reader understand who is who. A non-disambiguated term there, would make someone to think that this article talk about MacSlavs and not about MacGreeks, if the reader follows the link you repeatedly change. (sorry for the intervention here Andreas). +MATIA ☎ 17:58, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

My dear friend MATIA, the "Macedonians" link leads to "Macedonians (ethnic group)". I don't know what's so confusable about this. Bomac 19:27, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

Moldovan coffee

I wonder if we can find a good name for chauvistically-motivated names like Freedom fries and Bosnian coffee. It's not linguistic purism like, say Gyros (döner = turning), where the word itself is foreign.... --Macrakis 21:28, 21 December 2005 (UTC) revised 27 December

Greek products

This is a strange page, listing a variety of edible ingredients and foods produced in Greece. I am not sure what the point is. Is it really about gastronomy? In that case, it belongs in Cuisine of Greece. Is it really about economics? A lot of it is just puffery. I am not sure what the best thing to do with it is:

Try to merge it with other pages (Greece, Cuisine of Greece, etc.)
Improve it
Delete it

Your thoughts? --Macrakis

Yes, there are

Yes, Andreas, there is a Macedonian minority in Bulgaria who speaks the Macedonian language. They have their own organisation (UMO Ilinden-Pirin), which the Bulgarians don't like it so much caus', as they claim, it's a Macedonian organisation. Pretty democratic, isn't it? Cheers, Bomac 15:26, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Good sources

Thank you for all the very helpful sources that you cited and linked to at talk:Bulgarian language, Andreas. You really did you homework and then some. :-)

Peter ^Isotalo 22:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I found your help there impressive, Ανδρέας. You really went the extra mile. AvB ÷ talk 21:43, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

misspelling?

You write on your user page "...al and/or physiologica systems" but maybe it is to be "...al and/or physiological systems" Carrionluggage 17:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

fixed - thank you Andreas 18:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Helium-Hydrogen Thing

Did I seriously say Helium was an allotrope of Hydrogen? I ment to put H2 (molecular Hydrogen) as an allotrope, because that is the only form I know of. Cameron Nedland 02:03, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Symbol + map

Yes, my friend, I really don't want to make a mess here, and I am for peacefully resolving of this issue, which, I must confess, becomes a REALLY borring one. That's why I removed the symbol and the map of Macedonia. Regards, Bomac 13:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Macedonia (Greece)

Hi, you were right about the whole "re-incorporated"/"incorporated" thing. I've being doing some research and you're right. I'll leave it to you to change it. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 22:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Just Hello

I saw a couple of your edits and I just wanted to say Hello. I saw your Babel, your name and your studies. Can you answer me on the obvious question: Are you Greek, Half-Greek or Philhellen? NikoSilver 01:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

First of all, I am a human being. If you ask me about my ancestry, my maternal grandmother had a Greek father and a French Protestant mother, my maternal grandfather was Greek, my paternal grandmother was Bavarian, and my paternal grandfather was of German Jewish descent. I was born in Greece, grew up in Germany, and live in Canada. Andreas 02:10, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for my curiosity, but it is a human defect. I admire your background. Nice to meet you. Any questions about me, I'd be glad to answer. NikoSilver 14:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Greece and Greek alphabet

Hi Andreas, hope I've been able to help. Currently I'm quite busy trying to get Arvanites out of the mud. Let me know if things get worse. Lukas (unsigned because server keeps throwing me out)

The articles Greek alphabet and History of the alphabet have references. Babiniotis in Συνοπτική ιστορία της Ελληνικής γλώσσας talks about the "Φοινικική γραφή" (p. 76) and gives more details on pp. 80-82: Έτσι οι Έλληνες τροποποίησαν, συμβλήρωσαν και, κυρίως, μετέτρεψαν το φοινικικό αλφάβητο σε φωνολογικό, πράγμα ποθ αποτελειί και την πιό σημαντική καινοτομίαα σε παγκόσμια κλίμακα. --Macrakis 17:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Stavro, I put the information into the talk page. Andreas 18:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

You were fighting against windmills this time, Andreas! I don't represent any "Greek pseudo-nationalists who think that Greeks invented their alphabet from scratch" (sic) nor am I in any way connected to "ideologists who think that the pronunciation has always been the same". I don't even believe in creationism. In fact I first heard that the Greek alphabet was descended from the Phoenician one, in the second grade, and I haven't changed my mind since. Moreover, Herodotus (V, 58-61) states clearly the Phoenician origins; so does every respectable dictionary of the Greek language. Normally I am not writting grecocentric things about "true alphabets" but this time I was teased when I saw your quoting of the Foreign Ministry as a source on the issue. Now that I have seen your edit history I understand your need to preempt strikes from fanatics and not nationalists (because they don't do any service to the nation at all) by using "Babiniotis" and the "Ministry". Cheers, Donnerstag 02:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

from user:makedonas

Hello Andreas. Thanks for your answer:) E! You know many things for us then:) I like history too, but in Greece we are teaching almost only Greek History and I know little things about Quebec, Alsace etc.(wrong!) .If you read the history books of the Balkan countries, you will understand that every country through history is trying to make good ethnicists:) Somebody proposed to teach in Balkan schools one common history for all Balkan countries.:-)))))

I ll tell you another story. I studied in Sofia, so when I had to go and work in Florina's villages I understood, what old people, said in slavian.(of course I didn't said them that I understand ntopia:) When the people was gossiping in front of me they used only ntopia. Before 20 years was forbiden to speak ntopia in Florina but now its ok. I understand also that most of them don't even know why they speak so. Once an old woman, from the village I worked, went to buy some things from Bitola-FYROM (many people in Florina, go in FYROM to buy things because are much more cheeper than in Greece and its only 20km away). When she turned in the village in Greece she said to me: Today I went to Bitola for first time and I realised that, there they speak our ntopia!!!:))--Makedonas 18:33, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

thanks for the link re: Greek language etc

thanks for that, will look at it.Politis 18:16, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Eisegesis

Thanks for your helping hand at Eisegesis! -Harmil 20:47, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Markos Botsaris

Hello Andreas, shouldtn't it be Botzaris ? On the headstone its with a sigma, but I saw it more often with a zeta. The french write it with tz to like the German Meyers, but the latter is far from beeing referential. Thanks, Gerhard51 16:01, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The Greek is Μπότσαρης, so the sigma transsribes into s, see Transliteration of Greek into English. E. Britannica spells it Botsaris. However, Botzaris is more frequent in Google. Andreas 18:26, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello

Hello Andrea! I'll try to explain you some of your questions:)

First of all as I know, Monastiri was the old name of Bitola because there was living many Greeks who after the balkan wars was moved especially in the town of Florina. (in bulgarian obitel=monastery) so I suppose that Bitola is the translation of the Greek word Monastiri. The streets to Bitola in Florina, Kozani, Thessaloniki are called odos Monastiriou(=Monastiriou street). The most of the people in Florina, and I, usually say lets go to Bitola because the word is smaller and easiest to say - than Monastiri, but in Kozani they say Monastiri. Sometimes in Florina they say today i went inside Skopia.

About dopia: I know that Dopia are different between the villages. In the north villages of Florina they looks like more the skopian dialect, but in the south villages in florina they don't looks like, so much. The children knows only words, but the oldest when they talk in the village they prefere to talk in dopia. I met some very old women above 90 years old (they usualy live many years) who didn't speak Greek:)!! I don't know if they watch skopian tv or radio but I know that they have signal in Florinas plain (their TV has very bad signal in the town of Florina although it is near border - if you have 15 greek channels with very good programm I dont think they like to watch 2 or 3 skopian channels with very poor programm). I know that there is a village which called Meliti and we say that there live many philoskopians. In the festival of this village in the summer when the official persons leave, the orchestre play slavic rythms.

Before I go to Florina I didn't know even that, they were people that speak this dialect. I didn't know nothing about this subject. In my first day at work when I heard dopia I though that these people weren't Greeks, but when they talk to me greek I asked them why they speak so :) I was very impressed because I could understant them! South of Ptolemaida (Kozani, Grevena, Kastoria) there aren't villages which speak dopia.

Well about me I went to study in Sofia first of all because I didn't pass in my exams in Greece:). I d like to study in Italy or England but it was too expensive and I prefered in Sofia because was very cheap, the medical university was realy good, and a lot of Greeks studied there. On 1995 when i went in Sofia there were 6,000 greek students in the city, but when I finished on 2002 were only 1,200 - now there are even less. That's because now the Greek children can much more easier pass in a greek university. I know some Bulgarians who study in Greece, not many.

As I know Greece has very good relations with Bulgaria and fyrom. Many companies, super markets, mobile operators, shops, factories, fast foods in these countries are owned by Greeks. From the other side they prefer to come for holidays in Chalkidiki, Thessaloniki, Kavala, Katerini and there are many economy emigrants here. In Kozani and Thessaloniki I see many cars from Skopia and Bulgaria and I see that the chambers of commerce of Kozani-Monastiri-Koritsa(Albania) very often last time exchange visits and work together.

Sorry if I said too much but I m trying to practise my English too, which was in a bad situation:)--Makedonas 21:40, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Bitola article

Hello Andreas, sorry that I’m answering to your questions regarding the Bitola article a little bit late, but these days I’m pretty much busy and I’m officially on wikibreak. According to almost every source I found so far, Bitola as a settlement was established by the Macedonian Slavs that shifted in this area in the VI century: [1], [2]. Regarding the name, it is considered that the current official name have been gradually derived from the old Slavonic (not Bulgarian as some people think) word Obitel. So far, I found two different meanings for the word, the first one tells that it means a monastery, monastery place or monastery settlement and the second one tells that it means a family or house, an area of living. Very interesting fact that supports the second meaning is that the modern Serbian/Croatian word for family is Obitelj (I’m not sure for the other Slavic languages as Russian and Bulgarian):[3],[4]. Maybe the truth lies (as always) in between, probably the word means a Christian/monastery community, family:[5]. However, you can notice that this word is not directly derived from the Greek word Monastery (Obitel and Monastery as words have completely different structures). It is not very clear how Bitola was called by Byzantines, according to some sources is was called Butela, Butelion, Botila, Botili, even Pelagonia, according to other sources it was called Monastiri, but I didn’t found any evidence so far for the second option. For that reason, I think the current design of the naming section satisfies both sides, because it provides the description of the Slavic word Obitel, as well as the fact that the Turkish, official name of the city before 1913 was Monastiri, derived from the Greek word for monastery. Bitola 11:51, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Link

Sorry Andreas, I hadn't noticed the link.Politis 18:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Epeigon (SOS)

Xriazome-aste ti voithia sou, giati apo oti eida kseris kalitera galika apo oti ego! Koita, to arthro afto exi protathi distixos, meta apo kapies diorthosis pou ekana, gia diagrafi: w:fr:Macédoine grecque.

Se parakalo voithise kai kane oti mporis gia na min diagrafi!!!! --84.164.207.72 19:19, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Danke file Andreas. --84.164.207.72 19:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

XXX Makedonija - XXX Macedonija

Well? Should I change it or what? Latinus has a different opinion (check my talk). I'd be more interested in your opinion for the content of the userbox, though... NikoSilver ^{(T) @ (C)} 19:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I was trying to go along with the local. I know it's with a "k" in cyrillic but are you sure about their Latin transliteration? I think they pronounce it like "Matsedoniya"? I am not certain but I am interested in finding out... NikoSilver ^{(T) @ (C)} 21:47, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I'll change it. Thanks. NikoSilver ^{(T) @ (C)} 22:01, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd really appreciate your continuous contribution in the Talk:Macedonians (ethnic group)#Logical paradox. Thanks for participating. Looking forward to your additional comments! :-) NikoSilver ^(T)@(C) 10:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Andreas. Thanks for your comments and your advice. I am currently in Romania and, unfortunately, I have too little time to answer (look at the time I am pasting this!). I will get back and try to catch up before the end of the week. Your friend, NikoSilver ^(T)@(C) 00:21, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Why?

Why did you do this? Apart from encouraging anon trolling, you have now mentioned Bulgarian twice and Macedonian is not even mentioned - why? --Latinus 18:00, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

a non-linguistic problem

A, Having noted a recent comment at diabetes, and having looked at your user page, it seems to me you ight be ideal to resolve an issue or two with the diabetic ketoacidosis article.

It was at one point my understanding that glucose production from disassembled body protein had the effect of competitively inhibiting a step in the lipid oxidation chain, resulting in piling up (as it were) of normally promptly consumed ketone bodies (the famous three musketeers only one of whom is actually a ketone). Prolonged sufficiently, we end up with enough of these to drive the body into acidosis, and thus DKA.

But, asssorted folks have told me differently (though they don't agree amongst themselves), and this article has persistently stated otherwise for some time, so I'm left unsure whether I should rewrite or not. As one who presumably knows, I invite you to help clarify the DKA article which is at the least dijointed if not factually inaccurate. ww 12:30, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

PS: I should note that I have a linguistic query about Greek as well, but I'll give you a rest on that one.... You'be been jousting enough, it seems. ww

Please do not discredit what you know nothing about

Hello Andreas,

I was disappointed to originally see your re-write of the Banitsa article, but truly disgusted to see you completely wipe out all information I had contributed. I tried to stay neutral for the purpose of the whole Wiki project by providing names from both sides of the "argument".

I apologize for introducing the issue of other villages being renamed but I hardly see the deletion of the entire article because of it (it simply forces me to rewrite a similar article for each of the villages that were re-named).

As for the Macedonian definitions of the terms such as "lignite" and "lentils", I don't see the problem as similar translations were provided for Banitsa (Βεύη) just as other articles did the same (ie. Zeus Ζεύς).

If you are at all qualified to write similar articles for the villages from a "Greek perspective" (seeing as the villages are now Hellenized and part of Greece) by all means, you may do so and we shall cross-link the two related pages.

I plead you to take a non-nationalistic approach to such articles that involve the "Macedonian question" as it would undoubtedly tarnish the image of such a valuable project such as Wikipedia is. If I can accept your Greek ethnicity and identity, I think the least I can ask for is that you do the same for me and my family.