User talk:Timbouctou

Croatian politics&history..

Hi Timbouctou, why did you change my edit informations about Savka Dabcevic-Kucar and Anton Tus? Is there any false information or subjective opinion harmful for object of editing? Wish you nice evening, Timeon (talk) 22:23, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Hi. I reverted some of your edits, yes. In case of Tus I reverted the version which had a) unnecessary mention of his birthplace - already listed in his inbox, b) weasel wordings such as a "legendary" Croatian general, and c) an unreferenced piece of information ("founder of Croatian Army" and "who was most important that Croatian Armed Forces became modern and professional army"). You need references for statements like these otherwise it is considered WP:OR and likely to get deleted. I reverted some of the same problems with your additions to Savka Dabčević-Kučar (diff) - statements such as the one that she hails from the "notable Croatian family Dabčević originaly from Boka Kotorska", that she was a "partisan and until 1943" are unreferenced. The "Queen of Croatians" is also dubious. Also, you had added her to Category:Croatian atheists - person's beliefs are supposed to be added only when they are relevant for their activities and if they self-identified as such. Having said that, I see now that you also added her to Category:Croatian communists - which is fine, because she was a member of the communist party. Please be more careful in the future and remember that all unsourced material may be deleted. If you need help with that just ask. Cheers. Timbouctou (talk) 22:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Igralište Kraj Drave

Let's take it to AFD, prod was declined - same as NK Elektra Osijek. GregorB (talk) 09:01, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Croatian Women's Cup finals

I stumbles upon a Croatian newspaper archive. http://library.foi.hr/nv/default.aspx?G=1&u= Those newspapers cover football at like 3 pages per day. I wondered if one is able to find results or at least runner-ups from 1992 to 2001. As i don't speak Croatian and don't know the dates of the finals, i can't come up with good searchterm to create few good results. Maybe you could have a short try at that site? Something like women's cup final, women's football, year final, or cupwinner + final or something. Thanks in advance. -Koppapa (talk) 16:26, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Attendances

Info is taken from annual yearbooks (Almanah YU fudbala) published after each season. I'll add it a as a non-linked source.99.255.217.164 (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Croatian atheists...

Thank you for your attention on my editing, but your comments are on wrong adress I m affraid. First off all, writer Miroslav Krleza and film producer Branko Lustig was before put in article Croatian atheists. Branko Lustig is croatian jew and citizen of Croatia I dont see anything suspectable in fact that he is croatian atheist. Similar situation is in profile about Marek Edelman, known polish Second World War ressistant, communist and jew, who was put in articles as jewish atheist and polish atheist. Miroslav Krleza was notable atheist out of category his communist political orientations; it is wide known fact in croatian public and as fact very considerable in Krleza work. So violation is not on side of someone who knows than rather on side who doesnt know. If you have opposite informations on subjects, please be free to inform me. Wish you nice eveningTimeon (talk) 20:53, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Josip ____ enter last name

Dobar dan!

Vidim da ste promenili ime u članku Josip Đerđa/Gjergja.

Verujem da ste sigurni da ste u pravu? Možda bi trebalo Giuseppe Gjergja?

Znam da se u Hrvatskoj transkripcija razlikuje. Na primer, umesto...

Hetrik Tea Volkota nokautirao Briž, vi bi ste napisali

Hat-trick Thea Walcotta knockoutirao Brugge. Otprilike tako nešto.

Poz!

Tempo21 (talk) 15:35, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

U pravu ste. Promijenio sam Gjergju kako bi se slagalo s načinom kako se njegovo prezime piše u hrvatskim medijima, budući da je on hrvatski sportaš/trener iako stranog (arbanaškog) porijekla. Dakle isto kao i kod Franjo Wölfl i Anas Sharbini. Što se imena tiče u nekim izvorima ga zovu Giuseppe, u nekima Josip - no najčešće ga navode kao "Pino" [1], [2], [3]. Američki sajt Sports-Reference.com ga zove "Giuseppe Gjergja" i vjerojatno bi se tako trebao zvati njegov članak, kao i na hrvatskoj wikipediji. Inače njegov sin Dario je košarkaški trener (donedavno je vodio Liège Basket u Belgiji) i njegovo prezime također svuda pišu "Gjergja" [4], [5]. Giuseppe Gjergja trenutno preusmjerava na Josip Gjergja, što je možda u redu jer izvori se ne slažu svi - Fiba.com i Fibaeurope ga zovu "Josip Djerdja". Ako predložite da se članak preseli na Giuseppe Gjergja preko WP:RM podržat ću tu ideju. Timbouctou (talk) 04:46, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Croatian county templates

Why did you mass move them without discussion? I for one disagree with the moves, because the phrase "Cities and towns in Bjelovar-Bilogora" doesn't actually mean anything - the counties are never referred to like that, without the prefix, AFAIK. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:14, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

I didn't think it would be controversial. They were inconsistently named anyway so I was looking for some standardised format for all of them before I do some cleaning up on them, standardising names of urban and rural subdivisions, fixing endashes, adding county coats of arms and removing flags from headers. I merely wanted a logical and short name for all templates. Do you have a better idea? Timbouctou (talk) 23:18, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

How about "Subdivision(s) of X County" for template names and titles? Timbouctou (talk) 00:08, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Definitely with the suffix. It also occurs to me that the word county was likely chosen because of an equivalence with American counties - e.g. Anaheim is not located in "Orange", but in "Orange County", just like Biograd is not located in "Zadar", but in "zadarska županija".

BTW prefix plural ("subdivisions" rather than "subdivision") seems more appropriate, judging from existing practice in article titles. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 10:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I figured the county suffix didn't matter since these are just template names and thus not visible to readers, plus they are all in the category called "Croatian counties". Btw how about changing cities/towns to "urban" and municipalities to "rural" like they call them in German equivalent templates? Općine are rural and Gradovi are urban by legal definition anyway, and it might save us the trouble of using two terms (city/town) when one can suffice. Plus there are settlements which are urbanistically considered towns but are not legally recognized as such (like Hum), and vice versa (Kaštel). The urban/rural distinction cuts straight to the point. Timbouctou (talk) 11:11, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

So would this result in changes to Infobox settlement settlement_type variables, to say "Urban municipality" and "Rural municipality", respectively? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 11:54, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't planning on tinkering with infobox settlement but it sounds like a good idea I'd gladly support. I suppose that would also include renaming Category:Cities and towns in Croatia and Category:Municipalities of Croatia then. I'm not sure if this would constitute WP:OR or WP:V though. Timbouctou (talk) 12:09, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Generally I support this line of thinking, still grad is officially translated as city (not town) therefore I suppose city should be used term for grad (regardless of what city or town really is).--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm wary, too. For example http://www.dzs.hr/Eng/censuses/census2011/censusact.htm and http://www.dzs.hr/Eng/censuses/census2011/censusfaq.htm seem to consistently use the terms "county, "town", "municipality" and "settlement" so we can't stray that much. It's not super-official (binding), but it's close. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 12:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

There's this source too.--Tomobe03 (talk) 12:55, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I know. While it is true that the terms "urban" and "rural" would seem like our invention since official terminology does not use them, we are probably entitled to simplify things for readers, at least in navigation boxes. We could explain what we mean by that via wikilinking "Urban" to some dedicated article such as List of cities in Croatia or "Rural" to Municipalities of Croatia. On the other hand, DZS uses the term town for everything except the City of Zagreb [6],Article 22, so if we are to follow their designations then everything urban outside Zagreb is officially a "town" in English. Timbouctou (talk) 13:14, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Maybe we should just go with the 2005 amendment which defines a city ("veliki grad") as anything urban with more than 35,000 people (there are 17 of those in Croatia). If a county has one or more its template will still say "Cities and towns" and if it doesn't then it's just "towns". Same for infobox settlement. Timbouctou (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid that would make it an entirely arbitrary translation as veliki grad is not the same as city. Since there is no agreed difference between terms city and town we are fairly free to choose either, however city appears to be preferred translation by the MVPEI and the cities themselves and English language permits that choice be influenced by local legislation. Other possible distinction, which is purely traditional, is that a city has a royal charter - and that is not entirely applicable since such charters were last issued in Croatia hundreds of years ago: in that case, for instance: Požega would be a city even though it is not a veliki grad while a number of veliki grads would end up as towns. Alternatively, there is a tradition that a city has a cathedral: once again, Gospić would be city, while Slavonski Brod would be town. -- I propose that only city be used as a simple solution preferred by local and central government and permitted by English language. We need not be more catholic than the pope and make distinctions where there are none - and if veliki grad need be translated, then translate it as a large city or something along those lines.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

On a further note - town may come in handy to describe settlements which do not legally qualify as cities (e.g. no city government), but are not villages, even though they may be small in terms of population: Buzin and Dugopolje are hardly villages, but they are not legally cities - and that would somewhat mimic the "royal charter" criterion for cities.--Tomobe03 (talk) 10:42, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

The English language dictionary definition of a "city" is "urban settlement larger than a town" while a town is an "urban settlement smaller than a city". Every other attempt to define the two terms is either historically outdated (cathedrals, charters, and the like) or purely arbitrary (in large countries a "city" would be something above 50,000 people while in small countries 20,000 can suffice). MVPEI's preferences are totally irrelevant, especially since the same translators who compiled the manual also translated Croatian legislation - including the law on the census itself which (in its English version) calls everything outside Zagreb (including Split and Rijeka and Osijek) a "town". And I assure you, no professional translator would translate "veliki grad" as "large city" - precisely because the term "veliki grad" was legislators' way of circumventing the fact that Croatian language does not have the distinction the target language (English) has. If there are "large cities" then there must be "small cities" and if every urban settlement is thus a "city" then it seems Croatia is the only place on Earth where towns do not exist. And resortng to the "town" label only for settlements which "look urban" but aren't legally that sounds pretty arbitrary to me. Timbouctou (talk) 10:56, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

What I proposed above for the town/city distinction does follow size distinction thus Croatia would not be the only place on earth where towns do not exist. As far as professional translators are concerned I suspect I may know a few of those and what they would do.:) Position taken by the DZS is clearly flawed as it would imply that Zagreb is the only city in Croatia. I just wanted to point out that a lot of settlements defined as grad declare themselves a city and thought that wiki should reflect the sources instead of what may or may not be meant by veliki grad, I do not intend to change anything at any rate.--Tomobe03 (talk) 11:25, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Vukovar featured article nomination

Thank you for your recent interest in Battle of Vukovar. I have nominated the article for featured status with the aim of getting it to that position by 18 November, the 20th anniversary of the battle. You are very welcome to contribute to the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Vukovar/archive1. Prioryman (talk) 00:10, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Further to your question at #en-wikipedia-help

I don't think that there is a clear, fast solution. User:Prioryman's suggestion of writing to the Croatian MOD might need to be expanded to some other countries for the JNA logo. Someone from the former Yugoslavia area might also be able to help, try asking around Wikipedia:Croatian Wikipedians' notice board or Wikipedia:Serbian Wikipedians' notice board and the other relevant noticeboards/ projects. Sorry I can't be of more help. --Mrmatiko (talk) 10:26, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Timbouctou. You have new messages at Mrmatiko's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Šimun Debelić

Hi. Can I ask why you updated this article as you did. As Debelić was a high ranking member of the Ustasê government the category appears to fit.
Thanks. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 11:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't know for sure, but I am concerned that this could become a trend. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 11:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Would you be "concerned" if this was a Japanese/Italian WWII veterinarian-turned-minister of economy? Absolutely, and if anyone is removing categories in a possibly misguided way then you and I and every editor in good standing have the right, even obligation, to contest, and if necessary, rv, any such edits. I cannot monitor every page related to World War II-related individuals. (I haven't decided what to do about the Debelić category rv in question.)

You are right about some of the edits made by the unregistered user in question, and I am glad you fixed them, but language such as "Serbia-based anon seems to have a real problem with the WWII Independent State of Croatia and everything and everyone even remotely related to it" is inappropriate. It is like saying "Israel-based anon seems to have a problem with the Third Reich and everything and everyone even remotely related to it". It is our duty to ensure that encyclopaedic standards rule. If any editor goes beyond the pale then they can be blocked or banned by WP:ANI, WP:RAA, etc. However I believe in checks and balances, which sometimes means reviewing the reviewer. Yours, Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 12:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

inre Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Šiško Horvat Majcan

The lead sentence at Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) instructs how to best deal with fictional characters, in its recognizing (just as you did) that there is no specific guideline for such and in its advising that until there is, editors should see other relevant policies and guidelines in order to determine which fiction-related articles are appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Timbouctou (talk) 10:28, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

There have been MANY efforts to write provisions for fictional elements (characters), but they have failed with consesnsus deferring to existing guidelines and policies. If a fictional element or character is described in enough depth in reliable secondary sources, we'd have a meeting of WP:V and WP:GNG. So even without a specific guideline, we have decent article on fictional elements such as Light sabers and the Millenium Falcon and fictional characters such as James T. Kirk and Luke Skywalker. Its all in the coverage.Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 01:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

NK Široki Brijeg

Zašto mi stalno mijenjaš sastav Širokog Brijega sa igračima koji su igrali u 7. mjesecu. To je stari, od tada je bilo puno promjena? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikinukuapua (talk • contribs) 08:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Article importance assessment drive...

Whoa! I was this close to raising an issue with the WP 1.0 bot, because it looked like it was almost 100 articles off, and noone is assessing that many articles a day... :-) GregorB (talk) 20:11, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

All in a day's work ;-) Mind you, 99% of everything I assessed received a low importance rating. It would sure be easier to keep them in check if WP:CRO templates were marked "low importance" (and "stub") by default, requiring manual input only for quality/importance upgrades. Speaking of which, if one wanted to adapt WP:Germany's version of the table depicting importance scale, where would one paste it at WP:CRO project's page? Should I just put it on talk page until we find a better place for it? Timbouctou (talk) 20:21, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

From time to time I assess a couple of articles, and usually it's "low" because these are easy to pick: villages, barely notable films and such. Yeah, it's a chore, but in this case occasional (or semi-permanent, to be honest) backlogs don't really hurt either...

Well, the only proper place for the table is surely Wikipedia:WikiProject Croatia/Assessment, i.e. the assessment subpage (currently used for something slightly different, but this is easily fixable). Maybe the time to introduce it has come... I'm not sure myself, the project might offer an answer. GregorB (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Just noticed you tried to add the quality scale... I've wrapped it in <noinclude>, which prevents it from messing up the main page. Not really a solution - ideally the assessment page and what is displayed in the Assessment frame should be entirely different things - but it works, kind of. GregorB (talk) 09:53, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Cakovecki-mlinovi-dd-logo.gif

⚠

Thanks for uploading File:Cakovecki-mlinovi-dd-logo.gif. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. Skier Dude (talk) 20:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Re: Maps in infobox settlement

There's an intermediate template that you'd have to create, or use a parameter of the existing Template:Location map Croatia. If the coordinates match, the latter could work. But, I don't know offhand if and how this extra parameter fits into Template:Infobox settlement parameters. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 22:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Henlein

I found out that while with Građanski Zagreb, the Austrian Karl Henlein was actually a coach/player. He is former Austrian international. Here (3rd paragraph) is says that Gradjanski had 2 Austrian internationals, refering to Henlein and probably Rupec. That makes me doubt if Jaroslav Šifer (Schiffer) ever got to play with Austria, as he played in this same period as well in the club, thus, if Sifer was Austrian international, they would have been 3, and not 2, as mentioned. All sources say that J. Šifer was only Yugoslav international, but the only source claimng he played for Austria, that I know, is RSSSF. Any ideas? FkpCascais (talk) 21:02, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

HČSP

Well, I'm sorry that I reverted all of the info, but some of it was either unsourced or non-neutral. I edited the page again, so let me know what do you think. HeadlessMaster (talk) 17:46, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject Wikify's October Newsletter

The Wikifier Your Wikification Newsletter – Volume I, Issue IV, October 2011 Front Cover • From the editor • General news Membership • August drive results To assist with preparing the newsletter, please visit the newsroom. Past editions may be viewed here.

Delivered by MessageDeliveryBot on behalf of WikiProject Wikify at 16:11, 3 October 2011 (UTC).

Glossary of association football terms

Hi Timbouctou. I was wondering if you would be able to use the Football Lexicon to source any of the remaining unsourced terms? They're all tagged with ^{[citation needed]}, and last time I counted there are about 20 unsourced entries left. I've been trying to cut that down myself, but a lot of the remaining ones are phrases that might be difficult to source the meaning of from anywhere other than a book dedicated to football terminology. For instance, it's easy to find references to layoff and through ball online, but difficult to find anywhere that actually says what they are. —WFC— 17:50, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Vukovar featured article nomination redux

Please note that I've renominated Battle of Vukovar for featured article status. You're very welcome to contribute to the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Vukovar/archive2‎. Prioryman (talk) 21:26, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

October 2011

I posted a thread on WP:ANI that concerns you, here's a direct link. Regards --DIREKTOR ^(TALK) 16:37, 8 October 2011 (UTC)