Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Skepticism

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Thanks. — Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:36, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

Chip Coffey

Interested parties might want to look at this AfD

Request for input in discussion forum

Given the closely linked subjects of the various religion, mythology, and philosophy groups, it seems to me that we might benefit from having some sort of regular topical discussion forum to discuss the relevant content. I have put together the beginnings of an outline for such discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Religion/2011 meeting, and would very much appreciate the input of any interested editors. I am thinking that it might run over two months, the first of which would be to bring forward and discuss the current state of the content, and the second for perhaps some more focused discussion on what, if any, specific efforts might be taken in the near future. Any and all input is more than welcome. John Carter (talk)

_{Automated message by Project Messenger Bot from John Carter at 15:44, 5 April 2011}

Is Psychiatry integrative medicine?

Is Psychiatry integrative medicine?

Discover Magazie just named this story as "Top 100 Science Stories of 2012" - The "Bible of Psychiatry" Faces Damning Criticism—From the Inside From that story -

"...the most recent attack comes from within the DSM-5’s ranks. Roel Verheul and John Livesley, a psychologist and psychiatrist who were members of the DSM-5 work group for for personality disorders, found that the group ignored their warnings about its methods and recommendations. In protest, they resigned, explaining why in an email to Psychology Today. Their disapproval stems from two primary problems with the proposed classification system: its confusing complexity, and its refusal to incorporate scientific evidence.

That is the very definition of pseudoscience in the Wikipedia article on the topic.

The resigning docs are quoted as saying -

"The proposal displays a truly stunning disregard for evidence. Important aspects of the proposal lack any reasonable evidential support of reliability and validity. For example, there is little evidence to justify which disorders to retain and which to eliminate. Even more concerning is the fact that a major component of proposal is inconsistent with extensive evidence…This creates the untenable situation of the Work Group advancing a taxonomic model that it has acknowledged in a published article to be inconsistent with the evidence."

Part of psychiatry is clearly evidence based and is science. But the field integrates this with pseudoscience and worse (forensic psychiatry and its associated fraud). Per the WP arricle, integrative medicine "integrates" evidence based medicine with the other stuff. Does WP:Spade apply here, or must there be a secondary source calling the spade a spade? ParkSehJik (talk) 23:38, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

The short answer is that yes you need good quality secondary sources to make these points and you need a sufficient number by medical/scientific academic publishers to establish weight. What constitutes a sufficient number is particularly poorly defined in the relevant Wikipedia policies. In all likelihood there isn't a sufficient number of sources which meet the inclusion guidelines for medical articles to support the contention that psychiatry or aspects of it - say, specific taxonomic categories - are pseudo-scientific constructs. Moreover, if the medico-scientific "community" or a majority thereof do arrive at the consensus position that a given psychiatric category is without evidential support in all probability that category is doomed in any case and will be replaced by another.

The other point is that with posts such as the above you're going to be accused of treating wikipedia as a forum for your views. That you regard psychiatry, or aspects of it, in this way is of course legitimate. Lots of people, here and elsewhere, entertain a variety of criticisms about psychiatric knowledge and practices. But that's irrelevant here. For an encyclopaedic article you need to represent the majority perspective from the most reliable and authoritative sources. As psychiatry is still the dominant discipline in terms of the production of knowledge about mental illnesses/disorders the preeminent psychiatric publications are, for Wikipedia, the most reliable and authoritative sources. Therefore, this encyclopaedia will largely, but not exclusively, represent the mainstream views within the discipline regardless of whether those perspectives correspond to the "truth" or not. FiachraByrne (talk) 01:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

And I suppose we define "mainsteam" as whatever DSM-whatever says it is, today? You know, DSM is a lot like what Bismarck said about laws and sausages-- if you want to retain any respect for them you shouldn't watch them being made. The same is true also of Wikipedia articles, and (yes) and medical and scientific concensus. Which is why we wait awhile for these things to happen in science, and try to avoid recentism like those speedy neutrinos that slowed right down again when the loose cable was wiggled back in. Which suggests you really should NOT pay any attention to a DSM until after it's 30 years old. Or more.

You know, once upon a time, the dominant mode of American psychiatry was Freudian psychoanalysis? I kid you not. You know, that had neurotics and psychotics and people with character disorders? And the neuroses were due to people with unresolved subconscious conflicts? It was all very interesting and it was all in DSM I and II. But then in 1980 DSM III came out and "poof" the neurotics and neuroses all disappeared. Like over night. Very much like the disease of gayness going away in 1974. Which had been a lot of fun for the Freudians with the penis envy and the anal fixation, let me tell you. But anyway, the neurotics all disappeared in 1980 and presumably the entire Freudian subconscious conflict, along with them. Or, at least, I think it did. I dream about all this stuff, sometimes, but when I wake up, it's all gone.... SBHarris 02:52, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Lol - sorry I missed this reply at the time SBHarris; I liked the comments very much on your dreams ... Yes, I'm aware of these points and once upon a time wasn't so long ago - American psychiatrists had to receive psychoanalytical training up until 1989. I have lots of opinions on psychiatry and even a little research but what you can do on Wikipedia is quite another thing. FiachraByrne (talk) 01:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

@Fiachra - Yup, appearance of FORUM applies. I need to be more careful, or I will end up wasting alot of time on reverts to my edits based on forming an opinion of me, not my edits. I actually do not have views that I am aware of to be desiring a FORUM for, but I hoped instead to get thinkers with backgrounds outside of medicine involved in editing the psychiatry articles, by posting here. Re "sufficient number", I am going over the WEIGHT article to suggest improvements. There is also an academic legal community commenting on use of psychiatry in the courts, to base questioning "truth" on. I found it odd that every psychiatrist I engage with comments the same, that diagnoses like "bipolar" are "junk science" categories so easy to diagnose that it insures payment under an insurance billing code, and a critique that attorneys and insurance industries are hijacking the profession for money, and leaving the science in the dust, yet there is none of this universal self-criticism in the Wiki articles. ParkSehJik (talk) 20:03, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Metatheories of religion

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_December_9#Category:Metatheory_of_religion

This category has been proposed for deletion, and the result will be that Skepticism may be categorized under Religion, rather than Philosophy. The category was created to make a distinction between theories that govern the formation of religious beliefs which are limited by scholarly, academic, empirical, skeptical philosophical methodology and reason; and religious belief. Please look into this matter.Greg Bard (talk) 19:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Conversion therapy

I think this article fits this Wikiproject, if someone more experienced agrees please add your banner to the talk page. Thank you. Insomesia (talk) 20:48, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

List of common misconceptions

This article could use a thorough review by anyone interested.   — C M B J   09:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Rewriting the page for the "point of inquiry" podcast.

Working on the point of inquiry podcast. If anyone has suggestions or things they would like to see added please let me know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RicWatts (talk • contribs) 17:29, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Traditional knowledge

Category_talk:Traditional_knowledge

I have made a request for comment on this category and also the main article associated with it. My objection is the use of the word "knowledge" in the title, and it's inclusion in the category Category:Knowledge. It seems to me to be completely inappropriate, as "knowledge" implies that one would be validly justified in believing it. My proposal would be to rename it to "traditional beliefs" or "traditional lore" and certainly keep it out of the knowledge category. However, there is a strong political climate against that. If we were to use their standard, "astrology" would also be counted among the knowledge category, which it certainly is not. So is it just me and my "scientific fanaticism" here? Or is this a serious WP:FAIL? In any case, I will be adding the Rational Skepticism banner to it. Greg Bard (talk) 20:21, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move: Alternative medicine → Complementary and alternative medicine

Requested page move from Alternative medicine to Complementary and alternative medicine initiated. Relevant talk page discussion can be found here. Let the luddite bashing commence. FiachraByrne (talk) 02:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)