Wikipedia talk:Spoiler warning/RfC

Key issues

Are spoiler tags a violation of Wikipedia's NPOV policy

This claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Wikipedia's policy of "Neutral point of view", or "NPOV". This claim is held on the grounds that they are specifically geared to the purpose of suggesting to readers that they may not wish to read this information, a non-impartial judgement made on the basis of an editors' own interpretations and assumptions. The spoiler warning (in fact created to serve that very purpose and called just that: a warning) is, by its very nature, an example of an editor inserting their opinions into an article to influence readers' decisions to read or not read specific information. A warning can only exist if someone has passed their judgement upon it and then creates a notice based on that judgement. In this case, that is what is taking place with spoiler warnings, and that personal judgement of editors is being passed on to the readers.

NPOV was ipmlemented for the specific purpose of keeping editors' personal opinions out of articles, and not allowing these opinions to reach readers to the effect of influencing what information they absorbed or how they perceived it as they absorbed it. An aspect of this policy is known as "Let the facts speak for themselves". The detailed plot information within an article will identify itself as such on the basis of what it is offering. It need not be specifically targeted with a banner that strives to suggest to readers that the information may be inappropriate for them to view.

Discussion

Most, if not all, spoilers can easily be agreed on by most editors and readers. If not, then visit the issue on an article by article basis.

What would be a point of view is how that spoiler might affect someone's enjoyment of the text. If we commented on the tags, like saying "this is a class 10 spoiler!" or "You won't laugh as much at this scene", that would be point of view. There are some fictional works where, based on by past or current experience with similar work, I can spoil myself and still enjoy it. But other stuff can really effect the enjoyment of a work of fiction when you know something prematurely. Spoiler warnings don't comment on the why and how, they only comment that it is a spoiler. I do not see the labeling of spoilers as a POV.

We are labeling information, just as we label protagonists and antagonists, major themes, or any other element. Some readers might use these labels for navigation, some might not.

People might get some feedback from the editor based on how an editor writes or formats an article, such as what parts of the topic the editor chooses to focus on. In any case, the effect spoiler tags have, in my experience and others, is as insignificant as how something is formatted. -- Ned Scott 13:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

POV is the judgement that the information will affect someone's enjoyment of the work at all. The censorship that follows is the actions taken to "save" the readers. This isn't labeling, which has only the purpose of making information more accessible. This is an attempt at warning people not to read something for fear of their enjoyment of a work being "spoiled." Hell, look at that word: "spoilers." Does that sound like a neutral word? It's only called that because of the belief that people knowing things about a story in advance "spoils"/ruins it. Ryu Kaze 13:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

A "spoiler" simply exposes - spoils - the otherwise unknown parts of a plot. It makes no judgement call, even if the term carries some perjorative weight with some people. It's not a POV term at all. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It's POV to say that information spoils/ruins a plot in the first place. The word itself carries a negative connotation because it's implying "This is going to be ruined if you read this." It's not a neutral word, mustless capable of being used in a neutral manner. A spoiler warning is something based on an individual's personal judgement in the first place. How can it be neutral? Ryu Kaze 16:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

So if we rename the spoiler tag, does that fix it? If we remove the linje "spoiler warning," is that all it needs to be fixed? --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no POV issue inherrant to the spoiler tag. What point of view is advanced by saying that the following information gives away plot or ending details? The point of view that the ending to the Sixth Sense was not an important ending detail? Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying any political agenda is being furthered by their use, but that the personal views of an editor (that this information could damage someone's ability to appreciate a fictional work) are being inserted. That is a violation of Wikipedia policy. Furthermore, those views are being inserted for the explicit purpose of suggesting to readers that their ability to enjoy a fictional work could be "spoiled". Thus, the origin of the word "spoilers". Ryu Kaze 16:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you asking me to cite sources that believe that the ending to the sixth sense is a plot or ending detail - the POV endorsed by the tag is "Plot and/or ending details follow." This is like saying that the title of our Railroad article endorses the pov that reality exists and is not just a series of pictures projected onto a cave wall. - I believe Plato would require proof. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't pretend that this is about labeling. It's about trying to get people not to look at things "for their own sake", on the basis of an editor's own judgement. No matter how good the intentions, they're supposed to keep their nose out of it. Period. Ryu Kaze 17:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not. It's about allowing people to choose not to look at things that they do not wish to get information on. You alledged that the statement "Plot and/or ending details follow." was a violation of NPOV. NPOV is set in stone. Wikipedia:No disclaimer templates is not. If you want to talk about the basic reason not to include them, please don't discuss NPOV, which is what this section is about. What is the other POV? Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ryu, I think it is bad faith to accuse another editor of "pretending". I think you need to accept that some people do see this as another type of label, that is no more problematic than any other label. Johntex\^talk 17:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm. Perhaps you're right. I just can't see how someone can arrive at that conclusion given the thought processes that goes into placing that tag. I truly can't understand how anyone would think it's not POV in light of how and why a spoiler tag gets inserted. But, okay. I'll try to accept the notion even if it makes totally no sense to me. Ryu Kaze 17:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

What is the other POV? NPOV requires that we find both notable sides of a disagreement and cite both. Who thinks it's not a plot/ending detail? Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not the issue. No one thinks a plot detail isn't a plot detail (that I've seen anyway). The POV aspect is the belief that this knowledge is somehow going to harm someone's enjoyment of a work. That's the NPOV violation. The censorship violation is taking a step to influence someone's decision to read or not read that specifically-targeted information with the promise that it's going to "spoil" the work for them and prevent them from enjoying it. Ryu Kaze 17:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

So it's just the word "spoiler warning" before the plot details thing? We can fix that - amended onto my edit protected request. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, isn't it even more of a contradiction to have a disclaimer tag when we have a "no disclaimers" guideline? And both are guidelines? Ryu Kaze 17:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

NDT was edited a long long time ago to carve out {{spoiler}} and derivatives. See the guideline for rationale. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There wasn't any rationale. The claim that once you've read something you can't unread it applies to all the information here. Information which is no different from plot details according to encyclopedic princicple. As I've said before, I don't care if someone who came to this body of knowledge attains knowledge, and neither does the encyclopedia. You're not supposed to care either. You're supposed to be building the encyclopedia. All of us are. That's all we're supposed to be doing. Wikipedia's very first policy says so: "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further." Ryu Kaze 17:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The reason it is carved out is that, unlike other disclaimers, you need to read spoiler BEFORE the info, while if you read some medical advice you might say to yourself "wow, how reliable is this shit? I should check the disclaimers!" Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

This comes back to the issue of how the things actually aid or don't aid the encyclopedia. Why do people need to be warned about knowledge? Ryu Kaze 18:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia's are in the buisness of serving readers and storing knowledge. Putting in a statement that "the knowledge you are about to see contains plot details and endings" is serving readers. It does not stop us from storing knowledge. Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedias serve readers by giving them knowledge. That's the be all and end all of it. Wikipedia's very first policy even says as much: "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further." We're not here to provide any courtesy other than the information itself. We're not going the extra mile or some nonsense. We're here to do one thing and one thing only: provide the information in a comprehensive, neutral manner. If people don't appreciate that, then they should look elsewhere. It's quite simple. Ryu Kaze 18:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Being useful is inherently part of our objective. It is not "going further" to be useful. It is where we should be to begin with. Johntex\^talk 19:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Useful things are only part of our objective in so far as they directly contribute to the objective of being an encyclopedia. As said many times, useful things are not inherently placed in an encyclopedia. This includes phone books, and any number of things that might be based on POV. Plenty of useful things out there. Not all of them conform to the principles of an encyclopedia, though, which is our only basis for what goes here. Ryu Kaze 20:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Phone books contain POV? you've lost me, man. -- Ned Scott 21:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Read it like this: "This includes phone books. It also includes any number of things that might be based on POV." Ryu Kaze 21:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Still an odd example, usefulness isn't a POV issue.. -- Ned Scott 22:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

No one said it was. However, some things that are useful are POV issues. I see spoiler tags as one of them. It's also worth noting that some things are useful only in their appropriate context. Which is not to say that they're not doing what they're intended to here. I'm just pointing out that something being useful doesn't make it a magical thing that could never have anything wrong with it. Sometimes useful things don't belong in places. Ryu Kaze 22:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought of a good example of how something is borderline POV that editors include in many articles: genre. I've seen debates over what genres people think a TV show falls under, and worse. Are those labels in the same boat as spoiler tags in that sense? -- Ned Scott 22:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

That's why editors shouldn't say "This work of fiction falls into this genre" unless its creators have identified it as being part of that genre. Sometimes they make a point of differentiating what they think it should be called in interviews. If an editor cannot verify that it's part of a certain genre, then they should say that it contains elements of "this" genre and "that" one, or that it contains elements usually associated with "this" or "that" genre. Ryu Kaze 22:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• NPOV really does not apply to this issue, since if it is a POV to label the text to warn readers, it is a POV not to do so. The NPOV policy exists to guard against biased content. The warning is not a part of an article's content, it is a self reference to the Wikipedia:Spoiler warning page and is of editorial quality. If this warning represents a POV, so must all other content disclaimers. Are we really suggesting it is POV to assert that Wikipedia may not be accurate, since it may well be? Most people agree that a disclaimer somewhere should appear, it is the placement of it which is the issue. Whilst that issue is a subjective one, it is not the POV issue that the NPOV policy was created to guard against. The NPOV policy guards against the inclusion of the text itself, not the disclaimers against the usage of the text. Steve block Talk 22:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The NPOV vio is in the targeting of specific information for the disclaimer. Using it on all the information (as is done in the universal disclaimer) is impartial. Ryu Kaze 22:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Are spoiler tags a violation of Wikipedia's censorship policy

As a consequence of the previous claim, this claim holds that spoiler tags are a violation of Wikipedia's policy of "Wikipedia is not censored". This claim is held on the grounds that — "censorship" being defined as "the act or practice of censoring", this latter word itself defined as "to examine in order to suppress or delete anything considered objectionable" — spoiler tags are a case of the unstandardized regulation of information with regards to the presentation of its content as appropriate or inappropriate to some.

While Wikipedia certainly doesn't include all information, policies such as "Wikipedia is not censored" or "NPOV" are designed to prevent the inclusion of an editors' own assumptions and judgements concerning information that has already met the requirements for inclusion here, most notably verifiability and relevance with regards to the subject. In other words, if information has been found to merit inclusion in the article, then it is simply relevant information that is then supposed to be presented to the readers as impartially as any other information, whether this information be spoilers or not. It is to be treated as any other information would be and offered to the readers as such.

As can be seen by clicking on the encyclopedia-wide disclaimer at the bottom of any Wikipedia page, there is already a notice to readers that any and all sections of any and all pages may contain detailed plot information. This serves as a universal notice that identifies all information within this encyclopedia, and, thus, it is an impartial and standardized regulation. Spoiler tags, however, target specific information selected by an editor on the basis of their own judgement of what they feel may be seen as inappropriate by some.

Also, unlike simple headers (such as "Development" or "Gameplay"), spoiler tags are not designed to the function of making information more accessible to the reader by grouping it into coherent sets that flow from one to another. They, in fact, aim to suggest readers not look at specific information. The spoiler tags are designed to serve as a warning, a deterrent, a suggestion of what is one's best interest. For that matter, the word itself carries a negative connotation. "Spoilers" is so-called due to the idea that knowing plot details before viewing a work will spoil/ruin the later experience of viewing that work — this, in itself, being a judgement based on editors' assumptions.

Wikipedia's policies already inform readers that there are things on Wikipedia that some may find inappropriate. This includes, but may not be limited to, images of pornography, abuse and torture of humans, genocide, prostitutes, female genitalia, exotic dancers and also artwork of children or individuals with child-like appearances in sexual situations or imagery alluding to sexual situations. In fact, several such images and even entire articles have been targeted for censorship of various kinds in the past (examples: opposition to a pornographic image, attempt to have the Lolicon page deleted, creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page, creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page), only to be protected on the grounds that Wikipedia is not censored, regardless of concerns over what is appropriate or inappropriate to some. In fact, one particular warning tag (much like the spoiler tag being discussed here) attempting to warn people about images of torture was also denied.

Discussion

Just to get things started for the pro-spoiler-tag side:

The censorship accusation would only hold water if people used the warning itself as a reason not to read information, rather than their own decision to read or not to read. If a reader wishes to read only some information and not other, that is their right as a reader. Giving readers that option makes Wikipedia more useful. People know what we mean when we say "spoiler warning", they're not going to freak out over some misunderstanding and think the text is somehow dangerous. And spoilers, unlike pictures of aborted babies and dead puppies, aren't "offensive" or political or anything like that, so the spoilers themselves and any warnings about them are in a totally different league than what we think of as censorship. If the tags were an attempt to influence the reader, then maybe, but informing the reader to allow them to make their own choice is different than trying to influence them. -- Ned Scott 13:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Um... that argument kind of contradicts itself. "We're going to give this warning to the reader to avoid some information and if they thereafter avoid it, it has nothing to do with the warning itself"? That doesn't make any sense. In fact, that doesn't even make any sense with regards to the purpose of the warning. It's not making the decision for them, but no warning does. That doesn't make it any less a warning that's going to influence the decision they make. Which is not something editors are supposed to be doing. That's the whole reason we have policies to prevent editors from trying to influence what people take from articles.

And they get their choice when they show up and see the word "encyclopedia" plastered everywhere, even if they do avoid the site's disclaimer and policies. Which is their own fault anyway. People afraid of knowledge shouldn't be coming to what aims to be the most comprehensive body of it in the world. Ryu Kaze 13:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The tag do have something to do with the readers choice, but only because it's there, it's data. I don't have to know if a picture of a vagina is what it is, I only have to know that the article on vaginas has pictures. If Wikipedia said, this article contains pictures, would that be censorship? no, but if they said "this contains nasty lookin' pictures of this chick's muff" that'd be censorship.

Articles aren't supposed to be detailed retellings of the plot, but rather should have information on reception and production. I don't read an article to know "who done it", I read an article to see who produced it, or who voiced a character in an animation, or what inspired the main artist (assuming that information was not speculation, but based on comments the artist made, of course). Articles can include great levels of detail if there is a need, but that is not a requirement for a good article on a fictional work. I myself go to articles all the time to only get such basic info, many times while I'm reading/ watching something and have yet to finish it.

Being comprehensive doesn't have to include spoilers, so it's no surprise when people show up here not expecting to see them. Even if they did avoid Wikipedia altogether because they knew it included spoilers, how is that any less of an "influence" than them avoiding a single section of an article? That argument contradicts itself. -- Ned Scott 14:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that articles aren't supposed to be comprehensive? That runs entirely contrary to our purpose here. Being comprehensive means we're going to detail the plot. Ryu Kaze 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Being comprehensive absolutely has to include detailed information about the plot. Otherwise, it's not being comprehensive. That's a seriously cut and dry issue. Ryu Kaze 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

First, don't break up my comments like that, it's confusing. Second, no, being comprehensive does not mean including every detail. I don't know how long Bill Gates's penis is by his article, do I? You need to read some stuff: Wikipedia:Fancruft, Wikipedia:Notability (fiction), Wikipedia:Deletion policy/Minor characters, WP:NOT#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information, and Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes (which even has a direct statement that reads:

"Elements which are best avoided in any episode article: A scene-by-scene synopsis. An overall plot summary is much better; the article should not attempt to be a replacement for watching the show itself, it should be about the show")

-- Ned Scott 21:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags are not a violation of our not-censored policy. They are a violation of our no-disclaimer-templates policy (or guideline), but they are a specific exception designed to increase the value of the encyclopedia. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Exception? Based on whose judgement? And how do they increase the value of the encyclopedia? As noted in the issue summaries here, the very first policy of Wikipedia states that tools not beneficial to our mission have no place here. In what way does this tool contribute to our mission of being a comprehensive body of knowledge? Ryu Kaze 16:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

"I really would like to know the name of that little kid who is playing the lead role in the sixth sense opposite Bruce Willis that I have just rented and am watching for the first time with no knowledge of what is about to happen. I'll check Wikipedia!" We just lost a reader. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

And to that I have to say "So?" We're not here to count readers like a (hmm!) fansite. We're here to build an encyclopedia. If people are afraid of knowledge, they shouldn't be here. Besides, they shouldn't think that Wikipedia's a film fansite in the first place. They have IMDb.com for that. Ryu Kaze 17:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

An unread encyclopedia informs no one. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly right. Let's strive to make a "useful, well-read" encyclopedia. Does anyone really think it is OK if we build an encyclopedia and no-one wants to read it? Johntex\^talk 17:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it more important than an encyclopedia live up to being an encyclopedia before anyone reads it anyway. If it doesn't, who cares if it's read or not? It wasn't an encyclopedia. Ryu Kaze 17:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason that a label causes us to fall short of that in any way. Johntex\^talk 18:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's the issue being discussed. I do, because it involves the insertion of a readers' POV to dissuade people from learning specific info. That, and it's something that doesn't actually aid our goal (and is supposed to be removed on those grounds alone, mustless any others). As far as I can see, the concept is in no way compatible with Wikipedia's policies (based in encyclopedic principle), and it isn't even compatible with one of its fellow guidelines for that matter (no disclaimer templates).

But you already know that, so I'll try to stop this particular line of discussion here so we don't end up going in circles. Ryu Kaze 18:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• "First, don't break up my comments like that, it's confusing."

That's how we've been responding for weeks now.

• "Second, no, being comprehensive does not mean including every detail."

It means covering all the notable subjects. I'm sorry, but the plot of a work of fiction is quite relevant to a work of fiction. Summarizing that means you're going to include beginning-to-end details, because a plot is itself the beginning-to-end framework of a narrative. Ryu Kaze 21:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You're really off on that, you need to read those pages I linked to you. It would depend on the work of fiction and what kind of story it had. The insinuation that all articles must tell "the ending" or any spoiler to be comprehensive is just wrong. -- Ned Scott 22:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

So you're suggesting an exception be made for what is already an exception? Stories that don't have beginning-to-end details that are actually relevant to the work itself are few and far between. Ryu Kaze 22:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

No, you are suggesting that articles require all spoilers and have to give away the ending in order to be a good article and/or comprehensive. But we're getting off track here, and debating a sub-issue. It's pretty clear how we both feel on this little sub-issue, so .. yeah.. I don't really have much more to say other than I disagree with you on this. -- Ned Scott 00:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you been reading what I've been saying, Ned? Where did I say all spoilers (i.e. the whole bloody script) should be included? I said the relevant/major/important beginning-to-end plot details. That is a summary of the plot. Ryu Kaze 01:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

To suppress, in the context of censorship, would not mean "to press down" some text because of a line-feed; suppress would mean " to keep from public knowledge: as a : to keep secret b : to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of". Wikipedia censorship thus includes removing information that allready exists in the server (either by deleting it on the Wikimedia servers, or some intermediary party removing it from their physical distribution, or by firewall blocking) or stopping/disuaiding submission of information from entering the wikimedia servers (by blocking, carried out by wikimedia or by intermediaries, or by threathening the editors). In the case of porn or democracy information, there exists intermediary parties like parents, ISPs, employers or governments who try to block content for the users on their network, or who would like the content removed from the servers. If we had a tag or template for such content, it could provide technical assistance for these would-be censors, and in my opinion that might be one reason why the community does not want such templates. It might help real censorship. In the case of spoilers, however, I have seen no examples of a party that would block spoilers in the network, even if I've asked for such examples. --GunnarRene 22:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You're ignoring that censorship was defined as exclusion or suppression, meaning they're two different things. Here's the definition of suppressio that applies in this case: "to restrain from a usual course or action". Given that plot details' presentation is being marred in a way that of all the information around it is not, we have a case of unstandrdized/unusual presentation for the purpose of making it not as acessible as other information. And as I've told you before, this isn't about the text being pushed down one inch by the tag (though, that alone, is enough) to qualify: the main aspect is the intellectual obstacle it serves to create. You get in someone's way of doing something a lot more by saying "If you do this your enjoyment will be gone" than you do by putting a three inch box in their way. Ryu Kaze 22:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not ignoring it. Excluding applies to removing something from something that exists, while suppresion applies to preventing it from comming into being or from being revealed to the world. When looking at the definition, it is useful to see who is doing the censoring and who are being censored. As you'll see when the verb "censor" is used in the English language, what is being censored are ideas, secrets, facts, expressions, and the people who are trying to express them. Writers of books, newspapers, or letters from the war front to their families, creators of movies etc. are being censored. The readers are not being censored. The readers are not being "restrained from a usual course or action" but the would-be publisher was "restrained from a usual course or action". If the editor is being restrained, you could say that (s)he is being restrained from not including spoiler tags/templates, but in the wiki environment they can just include the information, and then, if it meets the other standards of Wikipedia, another editor can put the spoiler tag/template in without affecting the first editor. --GunnarRene 23:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S: The things that are really censored are ideas, secrets, facts, expressions (such as text, images) and not the people who write them. We sometimes write that "Agnar Mykle was censored by the government" in the same sense that "Agnar Mykle was a published author", but poor Mr. Mykle himself wasn't literally passed through the pressing machine and distributed in book stores. --GunnarRene 23:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not the readers that are being censored (not sure where you were going with that to be honest). It's the information they're viewing. It's being suppressed with regard to the standard of presentation. Ryu Kaze 23:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I thought you were going in that direction. You rejected my assertion that suppresion of here means "to keep from public knowledge: as a : to keep secret b : to stop or prohibit the publication or revelation of" [the information/ideas/facts] and that the applicable sense is "to restrain from a usual course or action". Since information doesn't have free will, and the readers aren't restrained, who are being restrained? --GunnarRene 00:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, it is in the information that is being suppressed, as it is not being presented in the standard fashion that all the information gets. It is, in fact, being given a banner that says "Don't look at me or you might not enjoy something that you came to see to me learn about". This is intellectual suppression. Ryu Kaze 00:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Are you holding that the information is suppressed becuase it's "restrained from a usual course"?--GunnarRene 02:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. Thank you. Remember that censorship isn't just the exclusion of info. It's also the unstandardized regulation, and given that what we've got here is restrainment from a usual course, I think that qualifies. Am I making any sense at all? Ryu Kaze 03:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

The idea that information is being suppressed by the inclusion of spoiler tags is incorrect. If anything, the opposite is true. We are providing more information to the reader. We are letting them know that what follows is either not available through primary sources (in the case of promotional or solicitation info from the publisher/producer/whatever) or may be something that the author/director/whatever used as a piece of mystery or intrigue. There's a big difference, say when summarizing an Agatha Christie novel, between saying it takes place in the English countryside and revealing that the butler did it. There's a big difference in a comic book article between information available from the comics themselves and what is provided in solicitations. We are merely acknowledging that difference. CovenantD 02:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

My view on the matter is one of simplicity - it is a simple lie to claim people would not read wikipedia if spoiler tags were absent. We are ethier comprehensive or we are not. We're an encyclopedia or we're an dumping ground of information. If we must warn people we are an encyclopedia meant to teach them (especially when "wikipedia the free encyclopedia is a standar on any external link and pronounced everywhere on site) than this is not an encyclopedia. Its all quibbling in semantics. "People might be harmed by seeing a spoiler" or "We don't want to ruin it for them." What does that have to do with the encycloepdia's goal of evicerating the state of ignorance...? -Randall Brackett 10:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Are spoiler tags considered encyclopedic and/or professional

This claim holds that spoiler tags are an unprofessional and unencyclopedic tool, that — while, perhaps, useful to those who would rather not see spoilers — has no place in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is designed with the intention of being a comprehensive body of information on many subjects, including works of fiction. By the very definition of the word "encyclopedia" (appearing in the subtitle of Wikipedia, and visibile in two places on every single page of the encyclopedia), readers are informed of what to expect from this encyclopedia. Furthermore, the site's universal content notice (accessible from the bottom of every page of Wikipedia) and Wikipedia's policies serve also to make this known.

Those who do not wish to view comprehensive information, thus, should be aware already that by reading this encyclopedia, they may be viewing detailed plot information. Furthermore, it is Wikipedia's very foundation to serve as a neutral, comprehensive body of information that puts principles of encyclopedic conduct before any thoughts of courtesies to readers when they do not directly aid the encyclopedia's mission. The encyclopedia's very first policy states "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Simply being considered useful by some is not grounds for a tool's inclusion in Wikipedia, especially if that tool calls for certain allowances concerning foundational policies, in this case, "NPOV" and "Wikipedia is not censored".

Furthermore, the image of Wikipedia as a professional, uncensored and unbiased encyclopedia is tarnished by such exemptions to policy. Additionally, these exemptions serve to set a precedent which may be cited in the future by others who wish to secure the inclusion of additional forms of censorship, as was attempted during the above-mentioned creation of a censored version of the Clitoris page with regards to the creation of a censored version of the Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse page. Such exemptions can and will lead to further demands for exemptions. Once a double-standard has been established, it need only be consistently reiterated and looked to as the example for it to become the example of standard conduct.

A single exemption is as a thousand. The double-standard need only exist for the recognition of those policies being avoided to already be null and void. The standard has already been abandoned and an encyclopedia's image as a professional, uncensored and unbiased body of comprehensive knowledge is stained. A body of text either is an encyclopedia or it is not. There are certain principles that it must conform to in order to be one. Given that Wikipedia's mission is to be an encyclopedia, it must recognize the principles reflected in its policies in order to assert that it is one. Wikipedia's image is a direct reflection of the reality of its governance and the practices thereof. If there are exemptions and double-standards being allowed, they will not be invisible.

While there are certain professional bodies that do allow the inclusion of spoiler warnings, such as the New York Times, these professional bodies are not encyclopedias. Being professional in the context of journalism is sometimes significantly different from being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. For one, the journalism approach calls for the analyzation of information, and the presentation of conclusions drawn from that study. The encyclopedic approach, as used here on Wikipedia, calls for the presentation of raw data for the purpose of allowing others to analyze and draw their conclusions. In other words, an encyclopedia is something that one might reference if they were writing a newspaper article. As such, an encyclopedia cannot to be held to the standard of such a drastically different professional body.

However, where newspapers offer critical evaluations of art and commentary upon events, they are more similar in their approach to the encyclopedic one. Here, being professional in the context of criticism is similar to being professional in the context of encyclopedic behavior. Critics professionally analyse, evaluate and then present conclusions, as can be seen in this spoiler warning free review of Superman Returns by Philip French in The Observer. This piece discusses the film in a critical manner and analyses specific plot points and images for that evaluation, somewhat similar to the approach an encyclopedia takes. Also, critcal reviews are something editors to Wikipedia use as a reference when writing articles. As such, an encyclopedia may be held to the standard of such a professional body in certain situations. In general, however, journalism and encyclopedias take an entirely different approach.

For examples of the encyclopedic standard, we can look only to the principles of the concept at work, and the illustrations of those principles as displayed by Wikipedia's contemporaries. Such bodies as Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia, Compton's Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Americana, which do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about fictional works. While one might argue that paper encyclopedias cannot be considered as among the fraternity of an electronic encyclopedia, nowhere in Wikipedia's policies is such an ideal reflected. While Wikipedia is not paper, this has no bearing on the objective Wikipedia is striving for, nor the principles associated with reaching that goal. All Wikipedia's status as a paper encyclopedia alters are its limitations in achieving — or exceeding — the quality of its contemporaries. By virtue of its electronic nature, a number of additional tools are present to allow Wikipedia to more easily meet the aspects of its goal related to being comprehensive and rendering information easily accessible.

If, however, we were to look only to the electronic versions of Wikipedia's above-mentioned contemporaries, we would still find that these also do not include spoiler warnings in their articles about works of fiction. While some might argue that this is also not a valid indication of what Wikipedia should be striving for given that these other encyclopedias do not include often up-to-date information on in-progress television programs or upcoming films and books, to that one has to ask: if we are not looking to the princicples of making an encyclopedia, Wikipedia's own policies which reflect these principles (and which present themselves as the standard by which we are to follow) and Wikipedia's contemporaries, then where would we be looking, given that Wikipedia is not attempting to redefine the word "encyclopedia"? By virtue of its own policies and goal, Wikipedia identifies that it is attempting to be exactly what its goal and first policy says: an encyclopedia, and one that fits the previously established criterion of what that word entails.

Additionally, the use of a begin-spoiler and end-spoiler template approach to articles imposes the notion that spoilers must be contained "inside the box". This can lead to organization and layout issues, or incidents of "spoiler tag spaghetti", such as this one.

Given all this, Wikipedia's professional image can only be tarnished by the presence of spoiler tags, a tool popularized by usenet and fansites, not professional encyclopedias, with such practices have been strongly opposed by Wikipedia founder Jimbo Wales. Again returning to the earlier point concerning tools that might be useful to some, Wikipedia's first policy states "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Given that spoiler tags offer no actual boon to Wikipedia's purpose of being an encyclopedia, they have no actual place here, useful to some or not. Also, given their dubious nature where Wikipedia's policies and encyclopedic foundations are concerned, they are more likely than not a tool counterproductive to its purpose.

Discussion

I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler, thus there wouldn't be a spoiler warning. Who cares if Usenet or fansites also use spoiler warnings, they've used a hell of a lot of stuff that is now standardized, (like custom signatures, which many of the anti-spoiler editors use, or terms like 'spam messages'). The concept of spoilers and even the word itself pre-dates the web, the only reason we see it a lot in the web is before people talked about movies and such instead of typing it out. Encyclopedias don't talk about fiction in this depth, that in itself is 'un-encyclopedic' by this definition, but we accept those articles as a new standard that Wikipedia is creating.

Just because no one has done it on such a large scale only means that we're the first. (first only in that it's a single entity, where as other uses have been scattered) A lot of people I don't want to associate with out there use terms and words that I use, I don't stop using those words because someone else I don't like uses them. Ask a random reader if they thought a spoiler tag was out of place on a wiki article (although I would agree with you that the tags on the classic fiction is a bit dumb, but I'll address that later). You want to second guess how readers perceive the internet, then go ahead, but the argument is completely unfounded and without any proof. Newspapers and paper encyclopedias are used to doing the things they've done for years, and are a hell of a lot less likely to change and grow, unlike Wikipedia. Just because fansites use them too, give me a break. I know people who, last year, thought things like internet chatting and instant messaging were just kids stuff, and now use those thing. This is an issue of POV that we can't predict, not what the view is now, or how it will be in the future. If anyone has actual proof or real feedback about how spoiler tags affect a readers view on wikipedia, then please, show me. -- Ned Scott 13:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm unsure of the point over the inclusion of the Superman review myself, but I don't think Steve's point there had anything to do with actual spoilers. I think it was more to do with... well, everything else he mentioned about it. Anyway, as for usenet and fansites, obviously the venue is entirely different. Encyclopedia articles aren't discussion boards or fan-oriented. They're information and education-oriented only, and there's still the matter of the policies to consider. In any event, we're not creating a new standard with regards to fiction (the policies and mission statement makes no such allusion). We're just doing what paper encyclopedias don't have the room to always do: be as comprehensive as possible.

Anyway, truthfully, yes, we should very much be distancing ourself from the principles of fansites. That's not we're about and we shouldn't be implementining the foundation of their philosophies into ours, especially when it creates a conflict due to what foundation we already have.

Not too sure about your point about asking random readers questions, though. If the spoiler tags are doing what they're put there to do, the reader wouldn't be able to tell you if it was well-placed or not, as they wouldn't have looked at what they were being warned not to read, right? And original research can't be used here anyway. Ryu Kaze 13:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be mistaken, original research can't be used as article sources, but doing something like a survey is acceptable to gain input in a case like this. And to avoid something simply because a fansite is doing it is almost as bad as doing it because they're doing it. That's no different than saying "Oh no, that loser is wearing the same t-shirt that I am! I have to change my shirt." -- Ned Scott 13:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The principles are incompatible with an encyclopedia's. Ryu Kaze 13:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's your opinion and I respectfully disagree with you. -- Ned Scott 14:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Its not simply his opinion. Its a strongly opposed venue taken by Jimbo Wales himself in that social networking ideals are irrelevant to the construction of an encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 09:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

And this section really repeats a lot of the previous two sections, which really defeats the purpose of setting this RfC up this way. Lets focus on the professional/encyclopedic views other than NPOV and censorship, which have their own discussion headings. -- Ned Scott 13:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the subjects are all interrelated, so they're going to overlap at times. However, the points being made about each are pretty logically seperated. The first two sections focus on the princicple of the matters itself, while the third focuses on the effect this has professionally. Ryu Kaze 13:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, they're interrelated, but repeating yourself and making a section over bloated in an attempt to rail road the issue really undermines the debate. -- Ned Scott 13:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Explaining something in detail (which is why this section is here) is not an attempt to "railroad the issue." It's an attempt to explain the issue in detail. Ryu Kaze 13:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags are a dramatic violation of our encyclopedic tone, and as such their use should be constrianed to places where the value of the ending to the plot at large overweighs our desire to be completist with information. Examples - M. Night Shalaman movies. Most other tags should go. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• I've been waiting to actually make comments, but I can't really let that last edit go about the whole Superman newspaper review. The damn review didn't have a spoiler

• And there we have the problem in a nutshell since the review reveals that Lois Lane's baby is by Superman. So what is a spoiler and when do we use the templates? Steve block Talk 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• • I do not consider that a substantial enough plot or ending detail to justify spoiler tags for the purpose of wikipedia. The Usual Suspects Sixth Sense Dumbledore, sure. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • No, but some will. There are other plot details revealed in the review, including the ending. My whole point on this issue is asking what constitutes a spoiler, and I was hoping to show that just because one section of one newspaper contains spoiler warnings, another section of another paper does not. I thought it behooves a fair discussion to offer a counter example to the one given, but Ned appears to dispute that, and I believe also disputes that it's plausible that standards offered by critics should affect the writing of critical articles for this encyclopedia. Steve block Talk 17:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
      • And as soon as we dispense with deleting the template, we can get down to brass-tacks about right-sizing the template so that Book of Esther never gets tagged, Sixth Sense always gets taged and Superman Returns is a big long discussion that leads to a hopefully consensus answer. Hipocrite - «Talk» 17:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
        • Couldn't agree more and is why I added the "case by case" point below. I think the template started off in this spirit, and then eventually people misunderstood what the guidance was and thought their usage was arbitrary. We need to rewrite the page to make it clear they aren't to be used by default, and that any guidance on how to use them is style guidance, and any guidance on what constitutes text requiring a warning is meant as an editorial aid, not as a checklist to be followed stringently. Steve block Talk 18:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I personally do not endorse the the term "spoiler" or the template's intent to warn of being an encyclopedia. Its similar to saying, "watch out, we're comprehensive and you might learn something". Its utterly absurd to warn someone about the learning process when people are supposed to come to learn. How is one subject more justiposed than another...? All subjects in an encyclopedia are treated equally.

And no, I'm not concerned about people jumping about, protesting "nah, nah I don't want to hear that". As editors in wikipedia, the quality of many of our articles has a very long way to go. Our reputation as a encyclopedia stil has yet to be fully established. This amoung other issues and yet editors are mistaking the quality of the encyclopedia for placing irrelevant tags about, rather than referencing articles, expansion of stubs and copyedits. The last thing neutral editors should have concern for is "harmful" or "Spoilish" information in a comprehensive source of knowledge. If spoiler warnings have a place here than this is not an encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 17:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags have been used for almost five years, according to the edit history of Wikipedia:Spoiler warning. In that time I have not become less impressed with Wikipedia because of any spoiler tag, or thought of Wikipedia any differently because of those tags. They're here, and I'm pretty sure we're still an encyclopedia. Like I've said before, the definition of encyclopedia doesn't even comment on spoiler tags, and we only have examples which do not follow current fictional works in this level of detail. We're the first to include them on a large level, but who's to say we'll be the only ones? This isn't the first time Wikipedia has changed the way we think of encyclopedias. -- Ned Scott 21:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Straw man. You are attempting to rebute arguments I did not even raise. -Randall Brackett 09:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Are spoiler tags useful to users of the Wikipedia

Given that we are building an encyclopedia which is to be read, and given this incarnation of the Wikipedia exists on the internet, it has been argued that readers will expect spoiler warnings, given their usage in other internet resources. It has also been argued that, given Wikipedia's high profile in google searches, readers arriving at a page may not be aware of the purpose or nature of Wikipedia articles. It is felt by supporters of this argument that it is reasonable to assume that every unique article may be the first point of contact for a reader, and we should thus include spoiler warnings where appropriate on that basis.

Discussion

I've created this section in an effort to address concerns below. I'm not wholly convinced by the argument, but I think there is merit there. It's worth noting that a print version of Wikipedia oughtn't to feel bound by the style guidance of the online Wikipedia. Steve block Talk 22:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand the sentiments associated with the issue, for sure, and it's certainly one that needs to be addressed (good idea bringing it up here). I find it respectable that some people are looking to put people first and foremost, but those who do so, I don't think this project is for them. By its very nature, an encyclopedia must disregard people's feelings for its mission. We're not going to warn mothers that their kids are about to look at an image of a woman performing oral sex on a man (or possibly even a woman), we aren't going to warn the squeemish that they're about to look at images of humans being tortured by gutless idiots in a prison, we aren't going to warn the sensitive that they're about to see a field full of the bodies of innocent people slaughtered because of how they were born and we shouldn't be warning people that they're about to read details about the plot of a fictional work. Even if we were to make an exception for one of those things, of all the things to try making an exception for, the one that's not going to educate them in the ways of "adult behavior" or play on their emotions hardly seems to be the most important of the group. Ryu Kaze 22:46, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I am an experienced editor and reader, and I continue to find spoiler tags a benefit to my experience on Wikipedia. Are you saying I have no place here? Also, I'm 23 years old, I am no child. This has nothing to do with age or being mature, as spoiler tags are not an issue of maturity. The idea that only little fanboys use them on usenet is really irritating. You assume too much. Being comprehensive does not mean Wikipedia loses it's ability to be a valuable reference to those who wish to read things other than the spoilers in the plot when researching fiction. You cannot ignore how many readers use Wikipedia for such information. -- Ned Scott 00:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Up to you to decide if you have a place here, mate. I'm also 23, by the way. I've made no statements regarding age, so I'm not sure where you're going with this angle as, quite frankly, I don't care how old anyone here is. I've also said nothing of "little fanboys", and, really, you seem to be the one attaching some kind of age connotation to concepts, given that you can be a fanboy no matter how old you are (some of us here more than likely are; I know I'm one).

I also don't care how many people use the place. If it's going to be an encyclopedia, it should be conducting itself a certain way. If it's not going to be an encyclopedia, then, fine, I don't care if it throws spoiler banners on its front page, demands their use, and promises strictly enforced punishment if they aren't used. But as long as it's claiming to be something, it should live up to that. Ryu Kaze 01:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think that there has been a lot of useless chatter and claims on boths sides of the issue purporting to know how users feel about this issue without any actual data provided on user wants .. why not craft a user survey to determine if spoiler warnings are helpful and on what type of articles they are helpful on? (i.e. maybe not include them on fairy tales, but include them on contemporary movie plots) Wouldn't that be the best way to take into account the desires of the users (and not just a few vocal editors)? --Kunzite 01:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Possible solutions

The following are proposed solutions to the issues discussed above, and the results of discussion here, here and here. Please be aware that users may add their name to the support of more than one solution. In such a case, please indicate preference. A simple placement of "(preference)" beside your name will suffice. Remember that this is not a vote, and if you list your name below be sure to indicate your reasons.

Note: additional solutions may be proposed and offered support. Please add new proposals to the bottom of this section.

Hiding spoiler tags by default

One possible solution to this issue that has been presented is the notion of spoiler tags' default status being that they are turned off. In other words, someone accessing the encyclopedia would be approaching a default version in which there were no spoiler tags. They would, however, have the option (whether logged in or not) to turn them on.

Support

1. Ryu Kaze — If they're going to be here, then they shouldn't be on the default setting of the site, turning it into a hypocritical mass of fan-dedicated muck. Principles come before courtesies in creating an encyclopedia every single time.
2. Randall Brackett 17:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Certainly. The templates had no value to begin with.
3. RobbieG 09:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - I see this as a perfectly acceptable compromise. If there was a little button at the top of the page reading "Show spoiler tags", it shouldn't be a problem for anyone.

Oppose

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:51, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. I thought it was a good idea at first, but it will just cause more problems that it would "fix". Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - no overbearing need for this people just need to read carefully each article (and spoiler notice)
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Spoiler warnings are useful and should be kept, and kept visible. Requiring a new user to figure out how to turn them on is not a good idea.
5. ^juppiter talk #c 16:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Then what would be the point of having them?
6. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC). Removes all of the substantial value from the templates.
7. DyslexicEditor 18:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
8. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 19:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC), per Johntex.
9. Plange - an innocent reader would have no idea they were turned off and should somehow turn them on. Do you realize how many complaints we'd get on Film talk pages that complained we didn't warn them about spoilers?? -plange 21:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
10. They'er useless if they're hidden, and most people won't be able to turn them on. Tobyk777 01:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
11. Most first time and casual readers won't know to look for a switch, and those are the people we need to think of with this issue. CovenantD 02:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
12. —TheJC (Talk • Contribs • Count) 02:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
13. I don't see the logic in this. Plus it would set precedent that might force Wikipedia to allow people to hide other things by default, such as adult language, images... too much hassle. 23skidoo 02:52, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
14. as per 23skidoo. Grey Shadow 06:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
15. Shane ^{(talk/contrib)}

Deleting spoiler templates

Another solution suggested is that spoiler templates be deleted altogether.

Support

1. Spoiler warnings are not appropriate in an encyclopedia. Wikipedia contains information. That's what encyclopedias do, and warning about it is silly. The standard disclaimer at the bottom of every page is enough, and we should do like the Germans did and simply ban them. Shanes 14:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Utterly unencyclopediac. Irrelevant to the construction of an encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 15:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Inappropriate. o/s/p 16:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
4. Ryu Kaze — Preferred solution, though I'd accept the "turned off by default" compromise if others would agree to it. As said there, principles come before courtesies in creating an encyclopedia every single time. If someone's offended that this place is a comprehensive body of information, then maybe they shouldn't be coming here. We're here to make an encyclopedia, not jump at every problem a reader might have with relevant content.
5. Wikipedia will never be a truly spolier-safe environment as long as it's freely editable. Meanwhile, the tags themselves have a negative effect on article organization, since they encourage editing to keep spoiler-information together. My strong preference would be to either get rid of them, or as a second choice, to find a way to limit their use to the most critical cases. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 17:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
6. Movie Encyclopedias don't use spoiler warnings. What does that make WP? AMHR285 ^(talk) 21:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
7. Spoiler notices on Wikipedia have always struck me as the equivalent of saying, "Warning we are about to tell you things about the subject you asked us to tell you about!" If someone doesn't want to be 'spoiled' about something my very first suggestion would be to not look up a comprehensive encyclopedia article on that thing. Further, the argument that, 'oh, but spoiler warnings do no harm', is unfortunately untrue. I've seen too many articles mangled by absurd convolutions where essential/fundamental facts about the subject are banished from the lead because they have to be contained within a designated 'spoiler section' - which then generally has little organizational logic to it except that someone felt the information in there required pre-warning. Or every other paragraph has to be 'spoiler-warned'. Wikipedia articles should be free to be organized in a way that makes sense for an encyclopedia... not as if they were some random Usenet message that the reader just happened to stumble upon and which they might not realize was going to be about a subject they don't want to be 'spoiled' on. --CBD 10:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
8. Despite having had some plotlines spoilt for me (on talk pages no less), I am deeply uncomfortable with the appearance of the spoiler tags and the impression they give. It does look very unencyclopedic and I feel that editors of articles should think carefully about how to write an article to indicate that spoilers are about to be mentioned, without the need for slapping a template on something and shoehorning things into certain sections as "spoiler material". Fundamentally, I think use of spoiler tags is lazy, as a bit of thought and careful writing generally does the same job and looks better. Carcharoth 11:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. I don't think they need to be removed at all, and removing the template will only cause editors who still disagree to make their own forked templates and messages. Then we won't even be able to regulate their appearance or turn them off at all. -- Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Now that would just be silly!
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Very useful and not problematic. They should be kept.
5. ^juppiter talk #c 16:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Wikipedia broke the encyclopedia mold.
6. Too far. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
7. DyslexicEditor 18:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
8. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 19:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)- Spoiler tags are beneficial to readers, and in the end, that's what this entire encyclopedia is all about.
9. Per EWS23 and others. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
10. I can't believe this is even a discussion. This is standard stuff on any website that discloses plot details. It is not giving a POV that it will be ruined but rather warns users that plot details will be revealed and lets them decide themselves whether to proceed plange 21:14, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
11. On a website that gives plot details it's a must. Wheather it's an encylopeida or not. It is unprofensional to not include them. Tobyk777 01:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
12. Spoiler tags are a must Konman72 02:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
13. —TheJC (Talk • Contribs • Count) 02:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
14. This solution completely ignores the fact that Wikipedia is different from a print encyclopedia in that information can be updated and accessed immediately, often before a primary source is actually available, such as with promotional material. Reader have a right to evaluate and discriminate the source before they read the information. There isn't a scholarly imperitive associated with Wikipedia that they MUST learn whether they like it or not. CovenantD 02:31, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
15. IMO this falls into the "it's causing no harm to anyone" category, plus it is simply common courtesy, particularly for recent material. 23skidoo 02:51, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
16. as per Plange above. Grey Shadow 06:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
17. Shane ^{(talk/contrib)}
18. Oppose to the nth degree. I see all these completely academic arguments and am just stunned. Let's try an argument: some guy (let's assume a guy way out of touch with pop culture) hears "The Sixth Sense" is a good movie in passing, knows nothing about it. He does a Google search looking for information - who's in it, rough idea of plot, etc. - and clicks on the Wikipedia link in the first few hits. Without any warning, a dozen lines down, before he even gets to the cast list, he's told about the crucial plot twist in the last few minutes of the film. This guy - the kind of reader Wikipedia is supposed to service - will never be able to appreciate the film the way the makers intended it. This guy would have never consulted Britannica about the film 20 years ago - he would have looked at, say, Leonard Maltin's film guide, and he would have been mad as hell if Maltin had spilled the beans in his guide. Wikipedia is not a print encyclopedia. Wikipedia is a top-10 Google hit for almost every subject you can think of, especially pop-culture subjects. Change the template's wording if you want, debate all you want, but if Wikipedia ignores its responsibility in this area and screws every reader who comes to it looking for basic information in the name of a "vision" about what it thinks it should be, the project is dead in the water, because that guy will never bother clicking on a Wikipedia link again. And all because a couple dozen people in some arcane ritual of Wikipedia policy decided it's "unencyclopedic" to give this poor bastard fair warning of what he was about to read.- dharmabum 08:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
19. RobbieG 09:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - I'm strongly opposed to this. Spoiler warnings are a valuable aspect of Wikipedia's style.

Keep spoiler tags

Keep spoiler tags with options to revise guidelines to see when it is appropriate to use the tag or not.

Support

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Per the comments I'll eventually write up once I calm down, but in any case, I am totally opposed to the complete removal of a spoiler tag. Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - It ain't broke - so!
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Keep them as they are.
5. ^juppiter talk #c 16:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC) Getting rid of them could upset people
6. Use needs to be substantially curtailed. See my edits to template coming shortly. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
7. As per my argument below. If we remove spoiler tags, then let's spoil the next Harry Potter book on the front page! DyslexicEditor 18:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
8. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)- I've always been a big proponent of spoiler tags, though I've generally stayed out of the current discussion due to time constraints. Spoiler tags are important to readers, and therefore should be important to writers.
9. Per EWS23 and others. They are helpful. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
10. plange 21:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
11. A must Tobyk777 01:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
12. Almost all my edits are done on fictional articles and I know the importance of spoiler tags. They may not be perfectly encyclopedic, but the flexible nature of Wikipedia means that we get information up much faster than a written encyclopedia, which drastically increases the chances of posting of spoilers. They are a must! Konman72 02:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
13. —TheJC (Talk • Contribs • Count) 02:28, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
14. With the caveat that the guidelines will be revisited. CovenantD 02:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
15. Making note of Plange's caveat below, based on current wording as of my timestamp, I saw keep but I have no objection to guidelines being examined. 23skidoo 02:54, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
16. Shane ^{(talk/contrib)}
17. RobbieG 09:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - This'd be better than doing away with them completely, even if it means we haven't progressed.

Comment

someone just changed this definition AFTER people had signed.plange 02:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That would be me. I don't think I actually changed the meaning of this proposal, but added that if they were kept then the appearance could even be looked at. Which is something one would normally assume, since on Wikipedia nothing is set in stone, but I thought it might be good to make it clear. Here's the edit. If you feel that I have changed the meaning of this proposal then by all means change the wording back. -- Ned Scott 05:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I took out the little blurb about the tag apperance. The last thing I want from all this is for someone to say that the results are somehow invalid because of something small like this.. :) -- Ned Scott 07:25, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. As per my support to their removal. Shanes 14:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Inappropriate in an proffesional source of knowledge. Has no value in an encyclopedia.-Randall Brackett 15:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Ryu Kaze — As per my support to their being removed.
4. As stated above. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 00:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
5. --CBD 10:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Allow spoiler tag usage to be decided case by case

To clarify, this concept can go hand in hand with the idea of the guideline. "No guideline is absolute, and whenever there's a gray area things can be taken to the talk page of that article." vs "guideline trumps all". -- Ned Scott 02:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Note: Some of the opinions below were added before the above clarification.--GunnarRene 04:30, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Support

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - Leave to community and trust the majority of editors.
3. Leave to community, but curtail use to only eggregious spoilers. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
4. Offer guidance on how to use, offer guidance on where to use, but make it clear they are not the default and should be discussed on a case by case basis. Steve block Talk 18:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
5. As most other things in the encyclopedia. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
6. I don't see a difference between this and the solution above. Spoiler tags are already, by default, decided on a case by case basis. That's what a guideline is all about. CovenantD 02:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
7. A template is a template. If there is a difference of opinion of whether it should be included in an article, removed from an article, or its location in the article changed, that should be discussed on the article's talk page — as with most controversial changes and changes where there are disagreements. —TheJC (Talk • Contribs • Count) 02:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
8. Support only if accompanied by a guideline as well. Guidelines shouldn't be absolute and should allow editors to discuss gray areas, if need be. Spoiler tags require context, different works of fiction treat things in different ways. -- Ned Scott 05:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Always have spoiler tags. DyslexicEditor 18:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. As I stated above, I support removing spoiler tags, but if they stay, we need to have clear guidelines on when it's appropriate to use them. Unpredictably-applied spoiler tags are un-helpful to the reader and unprofessional-looking, the worst of both worlds. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
3. As per my op. below, I think we need a guideline on how they're used, as well as reasonable limits for when to use them, with editors making the case by case decision fitting the subject of each individual article but based on the guidelines. --GunnarRene 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
4. Always have the tags. They're a must. Tobyk777 01:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
5. Trying to decide on a case-by-case basis would open things up to NPOV vs. POV. Better to err on the side of tagging. 23skidoo 02:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
6. Agreeing with 23skidoo Shane ^{(talk/contrib)}
7. RobbieG 09:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - This sounds awfully like a violation of our NPOV policy.

Comment

I request clarification of this point. Case by case on how, when, or whether to use spoiler tags? --GunnarRene 02:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if we should scratch this section or not, due to the possible confusion. It is something we can decide after we know if spoiler tags will be included or not and/or if there will be a guideline status. -- Ned Scott 03:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Case by case in that people can't say "Look, Wikipedia:Spoiler warning is a guideline and so clearly states that I can insert this spoiler template into this article on the crucification, because it's spoilage." My view is that we should offer a style guide on how to use spoiler templates, but that where they should be used should be settled on a case by case basis, with guidance on what constitutes a spoiler kept brief to avoid wikilawyering. Note that we have people opposing this, stating that spoiler templates should always be used. I hope we all agree that comment needs clarifying. Steve block Talk 11:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Guideline, essay or rejected status

Spoiler templates were previously listed as a guideline, but it has been proposed that they be downgraded to essay status — a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Wikipedia's policies or actual consensus — or rejected as a proposal that failed to gain consensus.

Support of essay status

1. Ryu Kaze — If they remain, then they most definitely shouldn't be a guideline, which gives the impression that a comprehensive body of information supports censorship and shielding of knowledge.
2. At the very least 'spoiler' concerns should be downgraded to something which some people feel should be used in extreme circumstances. Currently we have separate articles on Darth Vader and Anakin Skywalker, despite them being the same person, in part due to 'spoiler' concerns. Tell me... how many people did I just 'spoil' that for? He was also Luke Skywalker's father! Wow, huh? The fact that we have spoiler warnings all over these facts that virtually everyone knows is frankly absurd. We twist articles into pretzles trying to 'warn' people about things most of them know and for which they shouldn't be here if they don't want to know. Maybe it would be reasonable to have spoiler warnings on books/films/et cetera which have just come out... but doing so for facts which are decades old is just silly. --CBD 11:14, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Support of guideline status

1. badlydrawnjeff talk 12:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Clearly, any inclusion would need a guideline. Calling it an essay won't discourage editors from using it, if that's the goal. -- Ned Scott 13:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - a guideline is understandable - I can't even get my mind round what an essay is in this context!
4. Johntex 15:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC) - It should remain a guideline spelling out suggested good uses.
5. DyslexicEditor 18:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
6. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)- This is quite simply not an essay; it is not an opinion piece written by a single author, it is a way of doing things that is in wide use throughout the encyclopedia.
7. Per EWS23, Johntex, and others. AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
8. I support a style guide for use of spoiler tags/templates for consistency of how it's used, as well as reasonable limits for when to use them, and editors sorting out the details on the individual article. --GunnarRene 00:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
9. Essays are useless. Keep it as a guideline, but if necessary review the guidelines. 23skidoo 02:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
10. Keep it as a guideline. Grey Shadow 07:06, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
11. Must be guideline Shane ^{(talk/contrib)} 08:26, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
12. RobbieG 09:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC) - What would be the point otherwise?

Support of rejected status

1. The silly warnings should simply go, and if anyone wants to complain about how Cinderella now has been ruined for them, they can write a userspace essay and rant about how "useful" the warnings were there. Shanes 14:44, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
2. Per "..a document that expresses the opinions and ideas of some Wikipedians, but that doesn't necessarily reflect Wikipedia's policies or actual consensus." -Randall Brackett 15:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
3. Ryu Kaze — Per Randall's quote of the essay description.
4. Per reasoning by User:Ryu Kaze and User:Randall Brackett. o/s/p 16:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
5. If the spoiler-tag is not deleted, we need a guideline that suggests reasonable limits as to when the tag should be used. Since I believe most editors would agree that there are cases where it is okay to not use a spoiler-tag for basic plot information (Hansel and Gretel springs to mind) I believe it would be better to spend further time coming to an agreement about when and how they should be used, then ratify a guideline only when we've decided specifically what cases the tags should apply to -- we shouldn't just approve a guideline as-is with the intent of radically altering it later. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 21:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
6. --CBD 10:48, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Individual user statements

To help prevent discussion from looping through repeated comments, this section allows editors to summarize their overall views on the issues above. Editors may revise their statements provided they link to previous versions (please use diff links from the edit history) of their statements so as to avoid confusion.

When offering comments on this matter, please place a header immediately below with your username as its title. Then offer your views of the issues presented. If you wish, indicate which proposed solution(s) you would support (you may be neutral or present your own proposal), as well as which you would be most in favor of (please be specific in this regard), as well as any potential pros or cons that you feel may follow as a result of recognizing one solution or another. If you are in support of a proposal mentioned above, please add your name to its list of supporters. Again, you may support more than one proposal, but please indicate preference.

User:badlydrawnjeff

• Few of the "against" arguments hold up under greater scrutiny. As spoiler tags have been widely used, it's safe to assume that the content disclaimer and section headers are not enough. I don't see how a spoiler tag at the start of a plot summary violates NPOV, nor is it censorship, as the information still exists. With that said, a "spoiler" is not really subjective, but the use of the tag may be, which is an education issue, not one that should be dealt with via abandonment.
• The only argument I can see making sense is the one about it appearing unprofessional and/or unencyclopedic, but we're not your typical encyclopedia. In a situation where we're linked to as references all over the web, and easily accessable, it becomes a courtesy issue, since it's not an issue otherwise.
• In other words, leave it to article consensus, and leave the guideline as is. If it ain't broke... --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Kevinalewis

• When the usual queation asked is why does wikipedia contain spoilers - why are we even debating the careful use of "spoiler tags" to mark where such spoilers are to avoid reading that section of an article. I have seen, congent debate for hiving all spoilers off to completely separate (and related) articles. This not a real option and neither was that. At least in most instances. :: Kevinalewis : ^{(Talk Page)}/_(Desk) 14:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Randall Brackett

In my time with encyclopedias and my capacity as an editor on wikipedia, I would really say that considering any information with the intent of informative intent as a "spoiler" is quite misleading and utterly destroys the purpose of an encyclopedia. Put simply, an encyclopedia is meant to distribute knowledge and all other quibbles and the like derived from the social crowd are irrelevant. As editors of wikipedia, this our duty as volunteers on the project. The encyclopedia comes first. Always. When an editor or editors presume outside needs of a networking group deserve the attention at the integrity of the encyclopedia there is a serious problem.

On earlier discussions, it has been established the spoiler tag was intended as a cooup-out for people who came to wikipedia for entirely the incorrect reasons, such as the false view of a review site, that of a online catalog and dumping ground of information from all veins of subjects. This is entirely the wrong view we wish to give wikipedia. And I've no idea why we should encourage those kinds of people in the construction of an encyclopedia. Wikipedia is still an encyclopedia, first and foremost. The unique premise of wikipedia as an online source of information is only in effect to permit the variable tools we utilize to improve the quality and wide range of content for encycloepdia. In that wikipedia is a new and different venue of sharing this knowledge is true, but our expanded content does not permit the we neglect what an encyclopedia is and how it treats information. An encyclopedia treats all of its information on equivilent standing as to verify its proffessional and neutral take to give each individual subject equal care. The goal of wikipedia is not to re-invent the spirit of the encyclopedia, but to expand, elaborate and provide complete inclusion on all sources of knowledge. As such, a video game such as Dead or Alive should and is demanded to recieve the same amount of neutral content and attention as the scientific subject known as the Sea Urchin. That's what wikipedia was intended to do - take the usual encyclopedia and expand the amount of knowledge it can hold. Additionally such implemtations such as talkpages, userpages, image uploads, templates, basic-level editting tools exist as sofar in they assist the encyclopedia. Things that do not directly assist the encyclopedia get deleted.

Many editors in support of the template raise functionally sensible arguments that are very appropriate - in an website that did not thrive upon knowledge and build upon elaboration such as plot details, specifics and other related data in the course of it being an encyclopedia. However, some editors became sidetracked; such falsely believed the social ideals derived from external websites were appropriate for the encyclopedia. As such the main arguments include "People like it", "some people think its useful for looking up data not relevant to an encyclopedia" and my favorite: "They don't hurt anything". Had this been an acceptable view such unencyclopediac content would not be disposed of at AFD and DRV (Although I must concced those processes are slightly broken at the current time).

I'm sorry, but that's the most mindbogglingly stupid thing I've ever seen on Wikipedia.

Apparently, a "spoiler" is a common term constructed in internet conversation and forums, designed to warn others of inappropriate introductions of story content in non-relevant discussions. Those websites are nowhere near the realm of an encyclopedia and do not document themselves as such. It would be silly to warn to someone whom has come to partake of knowledge at the outset, and furthurmore catering to those who continue to make a point of flaunting their wish to stay ignorant. Ignorance is a foriegn term to encyclopedias, great institutions and other great sources of knowledge. Its one that shouldn't even be considered, much less endorsed. Apparently, somewhere along the line editors percieved wikipedia's unique premise as a carte blanche for the introduction of this ideal and declared it as "essential to the workings of an encyclopedia". Go figure.

Spoiler tags are paticularly irrelevant to the basic tools provided to wikipedia editors and readers; the headers and Table of Contents in paticular make it entirely redundant. In addition, many reports have established the tag as placed directly below the header "Plot" or above the TOC. Um, the header doesn't accomplish that how...? Soem might suggest that elaborates upon the content contained, but I utterly refute that claim on the basis people have common sense and people see stuff - If the header says "Plot" than the spoiler tag clarifies nothings. If the prose in question is several pharagraphs in length than of course there will likely be substantial elaboration. Everyone knows how to look at things. Everyone knows an encyclopedia is comprehensive. To presume a reader has no knowledge of this and present the template as a "courtesy" is an utter lie. Stupid people don't read encyclopedias. And by its nature, wikipedia is very simplistic in nature concerning navigation, especially in the article namespace.

This is an entirely friviolus template, concieved on imaginary conceptions outside the well-being of the encyclopedia itself. They incite confusion, including the false interpretation about what Wikipedia is for (many editors have described it as helpful for those coming to look up information for game reviews and the like; that's not what this site was intended for); they look unprofessional and they trod upon article format, paticulary in thumb ing images. And they are extremely subjective. You cannot define what is and what is not a "spoiler". For example, the Juggernaut (comics) features a redundant spoiler at the start of the article. Compare to Spider-Man, which has a spoiler and end spoiler in a individual prose nearing its conclusion. This is very, very unhelpful. Why aren't these artcles tagged similarly...? Why is this left to the neutral editors of an encyclopedia...? How does it assist the encyclopedia's purpose and quality to others...?

If spoiler tags needn't be removed for the sake of an encyclopedia than I suggest we remove wikipedia's status as an encyclopedia itself. This hasn't any purpose in the course of a goal to build a great encyclopedia. -Randall Brackett 16:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Hipocrite

• The majority of oppose arguments do not focus on the value of the encyclopedia to the readers, except for the damage to our tone. I propose we change the template to have the word "major" or "substantial" in the template (Substantial plot and/or ending...) and use it as infrequently as possible. The template is dramatically overused, currently.(CF - Book of Esther (removed by me) Bubble_Bobble (also removed by me)) and scores of others. Hipocrite - «Talk» 16:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ryu Kaze

Basically, my reasoning for — at the very least — seeing spoiler tags taken off the default version of the site (though I'd prefer to see them deleted) is that they are based in individual editors' points of view concerning what may or may not be appropriate for readers to see. This judgement is then passed on to the readers in an attempt to influence them not to learn something specifically selected by the editor.

Our NPOV and no censorship policies were created for the purpose of keeping editors' opinions out of the articles. They're not supposed to be trying to influence which information the readers do or do not read, or how they absorb it. All information here that has met the criteria for inclusion is supposed to be treated the same. None of it is supposed to be given a banner that says "This might ruin your ability to enjoy a story," and I honestly don't care if it does ruin someone's ability to enjoy a story. We're not here to put courtesies before principles. As our very first policy says, "Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. Its goals go no further, and material that does not fit this goal must be moved to another Wikimedia project or removed altogether". Wikipedia's founded on encyclopedic principles. If it's going to be an encyclopedia, it's going to have to conform to these principles, and that means spoiler tags (a POV editor-based judgement intended to present specifically-targeted information in a biased light) should not be here. If they're here, then this is a glamorized fansite, and not an encyclopedia.

The bottom line is this: there's a certain integrity involved in being an encyclopedia, and the hypocrisy imposed by allowing spoiler tags to be present undermines that. If they're going to be here, Wikipedia's not an encyclopedia and shouldn't claim to be one. If my fellow editors do not have enough concern for the principles and integrity of what we're here to do to ensure that they are upheld, then I will personally think that we should push to see the claim that Wikipedia's an encyclopedia removed. If it's going to be a fansite, it shouldn't be masquerading as a professional, unbiased, comprehensive body that is serious about knowledge. If it's going to babysit the notion that knowledge is harmful and that shielding people from information is okay in a setting that's supposed to be impartial, then it should not be claiming the dignified title of "encyclopedia". Wikipedia either is an encyclopedia or it isn't. If it isn't one, then it shouldn't be claiming to be one. Pretty simple.

Note to Jimbo Wales and the Board: I understand that the idea behind the project is pretty much to let it govern itself. I understand that you guys hope for editors to agree in the best interests of the encyclopedia. I understand that you don't want to interfere. But is this just an experiment to find out if the concept can work? That strangers from all over the world can actually agree and make an encyclopedia? Or is it an attempt to make sure that the mission is fulfilled? I know you guys don't want to interfere in things like this, but if you want this to be an encyclopedia, one would think you'd make sure that it is one when guys like Randall and I can't, when our authority is non-existent or too limited. As editors here, all of us, even those I disagree with, should be working to make this place an encyclopedia. We should never have been able to even argue over this matter. Someone should have stepped in to make sure that the principles outlined were upheld if this place is truly to be an encyclopedia. Sometimes you can't just let the system work when the system is rigged to undermine itself. Sometimes you have to straighten it out and make sure it works.

Now, I'm not blaming you guys, because I understand why you don't like to make decisions for us and that you probably have more pressing matters on a regular basis, but I think that — just as the editors of an encyclopedia must put the princicples of an encyclopedia before courtesies — that the system we all hoped would work in the creation of this encyclopedia must sometimes be put on the backburner for the integrity of the mission itself. The purpose must come before the practice. Ryu Kaze 17:17, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Steve block

I think one of the things we've got to work out is that perhaps we're going to have to be clear that there's no consensus for the use of spoiler templates, but that we're going to have to offer guidance on how they should be used if there is consensus within a given article to use them. I think it might be an idea to look at offering an additional template, rather broader in scope to be placed at the top of an article, for articles where agreement is hard to reach. Steve block Talk 17:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:DyslexicEditor

I support the use of warning people about spoilers. To anyone who believes we should remove the spoiler warnings, how about once we know the secret to the next Harry Potter book (or whatever spoiler), let's put the spoiler at the top of the article (with no warning) and feature that article on the front of wikipedia so everyone gets spoiled by it? Would anyone really be okay with it? DyslexicEditor 18:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well there is a comprimise where the spoiler tag also spoils the plot. Harry potter example (contains spoiler). I'm using this as an example of why wikipedia's current spoiler tags are good. DyslexicEditor 18:19, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:EWS23

I have long been a proponent of spoiler tags. Apologize that I have not been involved in the most recent discussions, as I've had some time constraints to my time on Wikipedia, but I have been following it from afar, and I'd like to thank all parties involved for their dedication towards trying to find a solution and consensus.

The bottomline for me is, and always has been, that spoiler tags are beneficial to readers. Perhaps not beneficial to all readers, but there is certainly a large chunk of Wikipedia readers who find spoiler tags helpful and informative. I myself have benefited from them in my casual reading of the encyclopedia. While I certainly understand the arguments against them, particularly from writers who feel constrained working around them constantly, we have to remember that this encyclopedia should be optimized for readers moreso than for writers. Yes, we should strive to be professional, but part of being the best encyclopedia we can be is being the most reader friendly that we can be. EWS23 (Leave me a message!) 20:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Shanes

I believe people supporting spoiler warnings because they might be "useful" are missing the point. There are tons of things we could add to articles that can be seen as useful, but we aren't adding them because we are writing an encyclopedia. I could add to the Oslo article which pubs are the most popular, have cheapest beer, what beer brands, what it costs, when they are crowded, etc. This would be information that I would find useful if I were living elsewhere and planned on visiting Oslo and read about the city in Wikipedia. But this is simply not stuff we include in an encyclopedia. Useful or not. On Wikitravel beer prices might be appropriate, though. And on many movie-blogs, slashdot, and fan sites, spoiler warnings are expected and often used. But that's there, and not here. Being useful has nothing to do with it. The warnings make the articles look so silly and amateurish that it's ruining not only the articles they're in, but the whole encyclopedia. If an encyclopedia is what Wikipedia is. I'm starting to have my doubts.Shanes 20:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

User:LtPowers

I am not just an editor of this encyclopedia; I am also a reader. As a reader, I find spoiler warnings to be useful. I recognize that there is a legitimate argument to be made that usefulness is not our primary goal. However, I reject the premise that creating an encyclopedia (where "encyclopedia" is defined narrowly as conforming to certain strict rules) is more important than reader courtesy. An encyclopedia is, inherently, a courtesy to the reader. Without readers, the encyclopedia is only so much data. First and foremost, the encyclopedia must be useful and helpful to the reader. Every single one of our guidelines and policies are pursuant to that, in some way.

Normally, I would be tempted to agree that a section labeled "Plot" or something similar should serve as sufficient warning for spoilers. However, it is extremely common for plot summaries in other media to go out of their way to avoid revealing spoliers. This is particularly true for just-released fiction, something which print encyclopedias simply cannot cover. As an encyclopedia which is quickly updated with the most current information on fictional works, some of which are yet unreleased, we are in a unique position among encyclopedias. As such, we must take that into account when we are determining how to apply our primary goal (that is, being useful to the reader).

-- Powers 02:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

User:23skidoo

People need to stop trying to see Wikipedia as a clone of Brittanica or other classic encyclopedias of years gone by. This is a totally different animal and the rules are different. Articles can be written within minutes of an event or an announcement, and as a result there will be copious amounts of material written on films, TV shows, books, etc. which contain spoilers. Just because Alice in Wonderland is a classic that's been around for 100 years doesn't mean that everyone knows how it ends. I never found out until I took it in university. Now, I will agree that spoiler tags are often misused; not everything mentioned regarding a book or film or TV show is a spoiler. But given the tendency for editors (and I'm one of them) to post detailed synopses, I think spoiler tags are a necessary evil (for lack of a better phrase; I don't consider them evil at all). The only alternative would be to establish a Policy (not a Guideline) banning the presence of detailed synopses in articles. However that's a debate for another forum. And the only way to make Wikipedia exactly the same as Brittanica is to ban amateurs like, well, 99.9999% of people who contribute to this site. 23skidoo 03:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

User:Lee_Bailey

• I disagree with the assumption that spoiler warnings "don't hurt anything". Whether the costs outweigh the benefits is debatable, but I do think it's obvious they have some effect on article organization. Often, I think the spoliers-begin-here-spoilers-end-here format is harmful, because it encourages editors to lump anything that could be considered a spoiler together in a single section rather than primarilly basing such decisicions on logical organization and article flow. In some cases, it may even lead to good, useful information being left out in attempts to avoid the use of an excessive number of tags. At best, it's still one more thing to worry about which may prove a distraction from our core encyclopedic purpose.

• If we do wind up deciding to use spoiler tags, we need to hold a discussion about what contitutes a spoiler. I don't think erring on the side of caution is an acceptable substitute. Right now, in many articles, all discussion of plot is treated like a spoiler. I believe that most people would agree that basic premise information the likes of which would be found in an advertisement for a fictional work does not really "spoil" a story. Similarly, the revealing endings of certain stories which are extremely well known (folklore, for example) seems non-controversial. If we use these tags, we should aim to adopt the least invasive usage-guidelines possible.

• I know this seems like a stupid question, but are spoiler-warnings really all that useful, anyway? I know a lot of editors seem to think so, but I also know if I were reading an article on, for example, a novel I was reading, if a quick glance revealed a lengthy "plot" section, I would assume the article containing plot details, and not read it until I wanted to know about those things. I wouldn't consider that a hardship, particularly. Besides, are we really doing our readers a service by using these tags which suggest that Wikipedia is spoiler-safe? Wikipedia is freely editable -- anyone can add anything with or without a warning tag. Considering this, I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that readers who are highly allergic to spoilers exercize the same care they would reading reviews, looking at jacket covers, or just chatting with friends who have already seen a movie they intend to see. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 05:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

General discussion

Place any discussion or comments that do not fit into any of the above sections here.

• I object to the structure of this RfC on the grounds that the top three sections are all biased against use of the spoiler tags. This is giving the new reader a very unbalanced view of the topic. Johntex\^talk 17:24, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• • That's entirely the point. Those are the issues being addressed, and since the issues are inherently biased toward the spoiler tags, their presentation will be. That's why I made sure to add "This claim holds that" at the beginning of each, so it's clear that these are the sentiments that led to this discussion. The reasoning for the claims is hopefully what will help someone make their decision, rather than the claims themselves. Anyway, if everyone thought that spoiler tags were okay or everybody thought they were garbage, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Ryu Kaze 17:27, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • But the point is that some people think they are OK and should be left as is, and none of the starter-arguments reflect that view. They all start with the premise that something is wrong and change is needed. That is biased. Johntex\^talk 17:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Well, obviously some people think they are okay. The status quo is that they are here right now. If the issues didn't involve the belief that something is wrong, there wouldn't be issues for us to be discussing anyway, right? Heck, the fact that we're calling them "issues" denotes a belief that something is wrong. Ryu Kaze 17:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The very issue and implementation of the templates is biased in and of itself. The long-time stance of spoiler tags and the vast and uncontrolled introdution aross articles is a a very unbalanced view of the topic. -Randall Brackett 17:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

But that's just your opinion. If you want to get comments from other people, then you shouldn't start out by poisoning the well with multiple pages of complaints about the current system. There is no conclusion currently that anything is wrong with these templates. Johntex\^talk 17:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• John, I doubt anyone would object if you wrote up a section on Spoiler warnings may be expected by readers. I certainly wouldn't, and I think it's an issue that may require discussion. Steve block Talk 18:05, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
  • No one would object, no. I'd think it wouldn't make much sense since by placing it up there as an issue you'd be saying there was something wrong with people expecting that, but if you want to do it, feel free. Again, the fact that these are the issues means that there's a belief that something is wrong and those details up there are identifying what is believed to be wrong. Ryu Kaze 18:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Um, can't follow your reasoning here. Presenting arguments at an RFC is supposed to be done in a neutral manner, there shouldn't be a presupposition that all issues inherently imply a flaw. Could you clarify your reasoning for me. You seem to be presenting a bias as to what this RFC is for. Steve block Talk 18:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
      • Sorry. I'm saying that in light of the status quo (spoiler tags present), an issue with that implies the belief that something's wrong with it. It probably has to do with what you're using as your point of reference, I guess. If your point of reference is the status quo in this case (the one I assumed we were going by, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong), an issue is that something's to be changed about it. After all, if we thought the status quo was fine, it wouldn't be the point of reference for an issue, right?
      • Anyway, use whatever point of reference you want and present whatever you'd like at the top, John. If you want to add something else to the issues, feel free, but given that the argument of something like "Spoiler warnings may be expected by readers" is more of a counterpoint to the other issues, it would make more sense to put it there. It would also keep things organized, hopefully. But, again, do what you wish. No one will object. Ryu Kaze 18:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
        • I would think the RFC starts from the premise that the nature and usage of spoiler tags is in dispute, and allow arguments to be presented from any point of view within that framework. That's presenting an issue from a neutral stance. The central issue is that the nature and usage of spoiler tags is disputed, there is currently no status quo, and it is arguable what the status quo is. Steve block Talk 18:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
          • Basically, the status quo was dismantled once RfC began and we're trying to establish what it is then? Fair enough. Ryu Kaze 18:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
            • Well, the status quo was dismantled when the disputed tag was placed on Wikipedia:Spoiler warning, but yes, that's the broad point, we're here trying to work out where the consensus lies, and all voices should be heard as equals for the community to decide. Steve block Talk 18:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
              • Makes sense to me. Ryu Kaze 18:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

A proposed template wording avoiding the phrase spoiler

There seems to be some consensus for avoiing the word spoiler in any warning. Perhaps instead we should amend the template, or create an alternative to read Plot details follow which may spoil enjoyment of the work. Any thoughts? Steve block Talk 18:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The meaning in "Spoiler warning: plot and/or ending details follow" and "Plot details follow which may spoil enjoyment of the work" is exactly the same. The new one's only more straightforward in its presumptuousness. Ryu Kaze 18:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

What about it is presumptuous? Steve block Talk 19:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The notion that knowing plot details in advance spoils/ruins a work of fiction. It's based on the editor's POV. That's been one of the main issues at stake here. And this one's even more obviously a warning, really, as it spells out what "spoilers" means. Ryu Kaze 19:18, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

So then it's equally presumptuous that knowing plot details in advance would not spoil/ruin a work of fiction, and is equally based on the editor's POV. Best if we end this circular argument here and work out where the consensus lies. Steve block Talk 19:31, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

How about

Look good? Hipocrite - «Talk» 18:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

• Personally, I find the grey bars too intrusive. Steve block Talk 19:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
• Thanks Hipocrite for the suggestion. I think it is "not bad", but I like the existing one better. Johntex\^talk 19:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I think Hipocrite's suggestion looks pretty good, I'd support it. -- Ned Scott 21:48, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Given that it links to the spoiler warning page, it's just another example of the same thing with a different face. Same opinion as before, consequently. Ryu Kaze 21:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say it wasn't, it's just "toned down". Incase you haven't noticed by now, I'm for the inclusions of these tags, so I'm not sure why you are pointing that out to me. -- Ned Scott 22:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't. I had just been responding to some things you said previously a few minutes earlier, in which I used colons to space my text beneath yours. As such, I did so when I got down here instead of thinking to hit the asterik instead. Just like you did when offering your input to Hipocrite, apparently. Ryu Kaze 22:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Guy6s, perhaps you'd prefer to discuss this issue on your individual talk pages rather than bloat this section overly. Steve block Talk 22:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I was addressing Hipocrite, not Ned. Ryu Kaze 22:32, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "may spoil enjoyment of the work" is terribly POV. Pass. Hypocrite's version is much better but to be honest the current version is fine. The term "spoiler" has joined the words "blog" and "ipod" in the lexicon of the year 2006. Get used to it is what I suggest. 23skidoo 03:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "spoiler" is an older word that is found, in this meaning/sense, in paper dictionaries as early as 1992(?). In any case, it's older than "blog" and "ipod", even if those are SO last year. :-) --GunnarRene 04:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, and when I think about it, we don't want people to start tagging all plot details, just ones that are considered spoilers. hmmm.. -- Ned Scott 05:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I remember the subject header "NO SPOILERS PLEASE" from the Prodigy online service in 1991-1992. The whole point of the thing is that some readers want to find out about some aspects of a fictional work, while avoiding details the readers themselves feel might spoil their enjoyment. A spoiler notice accommodates people with that preference, and does not attempt to dissuade others from reading the material. Taking the words "spoiler" and "warning" out of the notice probably makes this even more true. As for overuse, I agree that this is a problem. I've seen them on so many innocuous plot descriptions that I thought I was "supposed to" include them pretty much all the time. I think from now on I'll use them sparingly - but if someone wants to add one, I probably won't object. Karen 06:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

What does "Always use spoilers mean"?

This comment is being made a lot to oppose the case by case argument, and could people just clarify what it means. Should a spoiler template be inserted in every sdingle article? Because I can't see what it means if it doesn't, and yet I can't believe it means use them in every single article. So could people outline what they mean, as their opposition to the point isn't clear. Should the article on the United States have a spoiler template? I know this seems like I'm being facile, but I'm not. We need to get a good idea of what people think constitutes a spoiler, so that we can work out what we all agree is definitely a plot detail that needs a template. Steve block Talk 11:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)