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November 28

NEW NOMINATIONS

People from the Ottoman Empire

Propose renaming:

Category:People of the Ottoman Empire to Category:People from the Ottoman Empire

206 subcats of Category:People of the Ottoman Empire

Categories struck per discussion below

~~Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Ottoman Empire to Category:Prisoners and detainees from the Ottoman Empire~~

Nominator's rationale. To avoid the ambiguous or misleading nature of many of the current titles.

For example:

The title of Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire: did they cover the whole Empire in paint? Or just paint a few walls somewhere? Or create paintings? The intended meaning is actually "Painters from the Ottoman Empire", which is about the least expected interpretation of the category name.
The title of Category:Architects of the Ottoman Empire: did they design the governing systems of the EMpire, or just its buildings? Umm, neither: they were just architects from the Ottoman Empire.
The title of Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire describes people who reported on the Ottoman Empire, but the intended meaning is actually journalists from the Ottoman Empire, whose reporting may have nothing to do with the Empire or its territories.
The title of Category:Academics of the Ottoman Empire describes scholars of any nationality whose field of study is the Ottoman Empire, but the intended meaning is actually academics from the Ottoman Empire, whatever their field of study.

These titles were created at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 13#Ottoman_people, where the obvious and well-justified concern was to avoid the problems caused by the previous titles which used "Ottoman" as a demonym, e.g. "Ottoman painters". However, the editors in that discussion do not appear to have given much scrutiny to the new titles, which were in a collapsed list.

This list of renamings is also collapsed, but it would great if editors could spend a few minutes checking that the new names don't create any problems.

I compiled this list by first building a list of all subcats of Category:People of the Ottoman Empire, and keeping only those whose titles include of the Ottoman Empire. I then removed any titles which it seemed might correctly use "of". Most of these exclusions seemed to be either job titles or a description of holders a public office.

The exclusions if are listed in a subpage of today's CFD page, at WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2018 November 28/More Ottoman people cats. If anyone spots more categories in the current list which need separate discussion, please just use <s></s> to strike them out. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note that this a followup a nom of only 3 categories lower down this page at #Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire. That nom was opened by @Good Ol’factory, who kindly offered to close it if a broader nom was made. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:12, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nom. The "from" works much better, especially for nationality/occupation categories. Thanks for this nomination! Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 06:43, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment, note that I have once nominated all "Ottoman people" categories to be renamed to "People of the Ottoman Empire" categories since "of" seemed to be the preferred preposition for cases like this (e.g. Category:People of the Roman Empire). This does not count as an objection, it is merely for information. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:32, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Marcocapelle I presume you are referring to WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 13#Ottoman_people, which I mentioned above. I can see why "Ottoman people" was a bad choice, but it's pity that there wasn't a bit more scrutiny of the consequences of adopting "of", and thereby moving Category Ottoman painters to Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Tagging. Categories all tagged, these edits[1]. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging the participants in the CFD 2017 September 13 discussion: @Marcocapelle, Laurel Lodged, Hmains, Iazyges, Peterkingiron, and Dimadick ... plus the closer, @Explicit. You may want to have your say here. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:16, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support all except the Prisoners and detainees category. The nominator has misunderstood the meaning of the category. This is about prisoners of various backgrounds who were held captive in Ottoman prisons, not about Ottoman subjects/citizens. Dimadick (talk) 08:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks, @Dimadick. I have struck that one.
  I caught over 50 of them, but I knew that more eyes would be needed. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:04, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians

Propose merging Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians to Category:Brazilian politicians

Nominator's rationale: I don't see the usefulness of these separate categories about Wikipedia categories where a politician's category is placed in Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians instead of simply placed Category:Brazilian politicians or into another subcategory of Brazilian politicians. Other categories like this exist like Category:Wikipedia categories named after Australian politicians instead of simply Category:Australian politicians.

Is it notable that there is a Wikipedia category about a subject so there is a separate category for Wikipedia categories? This could be a slippery slope! Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:53, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This a hidden maintenance category which groups eponymous categories. It is part of an extensive series:

Category:Eponymous categories → Category:Wikipedia categories named after people → Category:Wikipedia categories named after people by occupation → Category:Wikipedia categories named after politicians → Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians.

The nominator offers no reason for making this an exception to the rest of the huge tree of hidden categories under Category:Eponymous categories (eponcats). Everything she says about this category could be applied to all the other eponcats.

I'm inclined to suggest that @Liz should have done a more thorough job of WP:BEFORE. But I wonder: if Liz doesn't have view hidden categories enabled in her prefs, she would not have seen the hidden parent categs. Liz, I suggest that you go to Special:Preferences, switch to the "Appearance" tab, and go down to "Advanced options". Make sure that "Show hidden categories" is checked, then save. Now you should see the parents. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 06:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, the concerns raised by nominator are valid concerns and they apply to the whole series. These categories are kind of ghettoized, while they serve no real maintenance purpose. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per the explanations of BrownHairedGirl. Dimadick (talk) 08:30, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Photometry

Propose renaming Category:Photometry to Category:Photometry (optics)

Nominator's rationale: An opposed speedy. Renaming is to bring category name in conformity with main article Photometry (optics). Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Copy of speedy discussion

Category:Photometry to Category:Photometry (optics) – C2D per Photometry (optics) Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 22:03, 27 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Hold on. I'm not sure I agree with this.--Srleffler (talk) 01:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Moved to a full discussion here. @Srleffler: I would be interested in hearing why you may disagree. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 02:49, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tornadoes in the United States by state by date

Propose merging:

Nominator's rationale. These are all pointless sub-categories. They currently serve no purpose; if subdivided they would fail WP:SMALLCAT.

Their names indicate that they should be {{container}} categories for a multi-dimensional set of by-date subcats: e.g. Category:Tornadoes in Texas by date should contain Category:Tornadoes in Texas by year//Category:Tornadoes in Texas by decade//Category:Tornadoes in Texas by century, with specific date-period subcats e.g. Category:1979 Tornadoes in Texas. However, AFAICS none of them has any subcats at all . They are all just flat lists of tornadoes.

None of the US states has enough tornado articles to support a by-year category structure (i.e. with an average of at least 5 tornadoes per year), and AFAICs v few could even sustain a by-decade structure.

Even the global Category:Tornadoes by year has only 504 articles in 105 by-year subcats, an average of less than 5 articles per year. Only 5 of those by-year cats exceed 20 articles, and the highest number in any cat is 31 Category:Tornadoes of 2011.

That is not enough to sustain a Tornadoes-by-country-by-year scheme, let a lone a Tornadoes-by-US-state-by-year scheme. Note that we don't have a Category:Tornadoes in the United States by date or Category:Tornadoes in the United States by year or Category:Tornadoes in the United States by decade.

I can see that the creator @Colonies Chris has put a many hours of work into building this manually (it would have taken only a few minutes with AWB), and I wouldn't want to WP:DEMOLISH an incomplete structure if it had a viable destination. However, I see no way that this can be developed into anything useful. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 00:51, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support Pointless subcategorization. The dates do not affect these categories, as they are not part of a chronological sequence of events. Dimadick (talk) 08:35, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: self-close per discussion below. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 06:45, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Journalists of the Ottoman Empire to Category:Journalists from the Ottoman Empire
Propose renaming Category:Architects of the Ottoman Empire to Category:Architects from the Ottoman Empire
Propose renaming Category:Academics of the Ottoman Empire to Category:Academics from the Ottoman Empire

Nominator's rationale: This are nationality/occupation categories. They are not, respectively, a category for journalists who reported on the Empire; a category for those who designed the Empire; or an academics by subject category, as the names suggest. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 00:02, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as nominated. I ~~fully~~ enthusiastically support in this principle, but the problem is much wider than this and needs a comprehensive solution, rather than inconsistency.

There are plenty of other sub-cats of Category:People of the Ottoman Empire whose names are misleading, such as Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire: did they cover the whole Empire in paint? Or just paint a few walls somewhere? Or create paintings? The intended meaning is actually "Painters from the Ottoman Empire", which is about the least expected interpretation of the category name.

Same some sort of problems with e.g. Category:Writers of the Ottoman Empire. And many more.

This is an an absurd situation, created by an ill-considered discussion at WP:CFD 2017 September 13 ... so congrats to @Good Ol’factory for raising it. My objection is that renaming just a subset will create inconsistency. We should either rename Category:People of the Ottoman Empire and all its subcats, or rename none.

In early summer, I had a draft of a group nom to rename them all, but I lost it when my laptop died. I could re-create it without too much trouble, and would be happy to do so if that helps. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)

Sure, we can have a broader discussion, and if you'd like to help, I'd be glad to close this one. I don't think the other ones are as confusing as these, which is why I selected them out. I agree that the discussion which chose to use "of" rather than "from" is a strange decision. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 03:18, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Good Ol’factory: mass nom of 208 categories is now open above, at #People from the Ottoman Empire. Do you want to close this one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrownHairedGirl (talk • contribs)

Yes. Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 06:42, 28 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

@@ Line 194: / Line 194: @@
 :* [[:Category:Political people of the Ottoman Empire]] to [[:Category:Political people from the Ottoman Empire]]
 :* [[:Category:Politicians of the Ottoman Empire]] to [[:Category:Politicians from the Ottoman Empire]]
-:* [[:Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Ottoman Empire]] to [[:Category:Prisoners and detainees from the Ottoman Empire]]
 :* [[:Category:Rabbis of the Ottoman Empire]] to [[:Category:Rabbis from the Ottoman Empire]]
 :* [[:Category:Rebels of the Ottoman Empire]] to [[:Category:Rebels from the Ottoman Empire]]
@@ Line 225: / Line 224: @@
 :* [[:Category:Writers of the Ottoman Empire]] to [[:Category:Writers from the Ottoman Empire]]
 {{collapse bottom}}
+;Categories struck per discussion below
+:*<s>[[:Category:Prisoners and detainees of the Ottoman Empire]] to [[:Category:Prisoners and detainees from the Ottoman Empire]]</s>
 :'''Nominator's rationale'''. To avoid the ambiguous or misleading nature of many of the current titles.
 :For example:
@@ Line 240: / Line 243: @@
 **@[[User:Marcocapelle|Marcocapelle]] I presume you are referring to [[WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 13#Ottoman_people]], which I mentioned above.   I can see why "Ottoman people" was a bad choice, but it's pity that there wasn't a bit more scrutiny of the consequences of adopting "of", and thereby moving [[:Category Ottoman painters]] to [[:Category:Painters of the Ottoman Empire]]. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 08:07, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 *<small>'''Tagging'''. Categories all tagged, these edits[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Contributions&offset=201811280755&dir=next&limit=210&contribs=user&target=BrownHairedGirl&namespace=14&tagfilter=&start=&end=]. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 08:01, 28 November 2018 (UTC)</small>
-*'''Pinging''' the participants in the [[WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 13#Ottoman_people|CFD 2017 September 13]] discussion: {{ping|Marcocapelle|Laurel Lodged|Hmains|Iazyges|Peterkingiron|Dimadick|p=}} ... plus the closer, {{yo|Explicit|p=}}. You want to have your say here. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 08:16, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
+*'''Pinging''' the participants in the [[WP:Categories for discussion/Log/2017 September 13#Ottoman_people|CFD 2017 September 13]] discussion: {{ping|Marcocapelle|Laurel Lodged|Hmains|Iazyges|Peterkingiron|Dimadick|p=}} ... plus the closer, {{yo|Explicit|p=}}. You may want to have your say here. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 08:16, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 *'''Support''' all except the Prisoners and detainees category. The nominator has misunderstood the meaning of the category. This is about prisoners of various backgrounds who were held captive in Ottoman prisons, not about Ottoman subjects/citizens. [[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]] ([[User talk:Dimadick|talk]]) 08:28, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
+**Thanks, <span class="template-ping">@[[User:Dimadick|Dimadick]]</span>.  I have struck that one.<br>  I caught over 50 of them, but I knew that more eyes would be needed. --[[User:BrownHairedGirl|<span style="color:#663200;">Brown</span><span style="display:inline-block;transform:rotate(-3deg)">Haired</span>Girl]] <small>[[User talk:BrownHairedGirl|(talk)]] • ([[Special:Contributions/BrownHairedGirl|contribs]])</small> 09:04, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
 ====Category:Wikipedia categories named after Brazilian politicians====