Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not

Topic: Galleries (November 2005–January 2006) Topic: Newspaper Articles (May–July 2007) Topic: Unencyclopedic (2003) Topic: Trivia (July–October 2007)

RFC on updating NOTDIR to clarify relation with GNG

There is an RFC on updating NOTDIR to clarify its relationship with WP:GNG with respect to lists of transporation service destinations. See WP:VPP#transportation lists— Preceding unsigned comment added by Billhpike (talk • contribs)

Tweak proposal concerning genealogy

We currently have "Genealogical entries. Family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic". To avoid silly discussions, I think it would be more complete to have "Genealogical entries. Non-notable family histories should be presented only where appropriate to support the reader's understanding of a notable topic." We clearly can and do write articles and sections about notable verifiable topics of any type, including genealogical ones such as concerning royal families etc. If no-one sees a problem I will add the term (but not in bold of course)? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 14:27, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I don't think so. I think the advice applies to both notable and non-notable people. For example, while most US President's family history is documented, we rarely go into the depth of a genealogical entry as compared to the British royalty. --Masem (t) 15:10, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Technically this is a misreading of what I am proposing, but perhaps it is not clear. I am specifically allowing a possibility for notable families, not notable people. Some notable people have notable families, and some do not. Can you see my intention? Am I wrong to say that the current wording could be seen as implying that we can not have articles about any families at all?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 15:24, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Using your world thus implies that "Notable family histories" thus are 100% okay for a genealogy approach, but that's not always true. That's the part of the wording I'm concerned with. --Masem (t) 15:42, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

I would avoid prescribing a cutoff like "notable" or "not notable", and emphasize that in determining weight, we defer to our sources: "2. Genealogical entries. Details of family histories should be given weight and detail in proportion to that given by quality sources." It's pretty nebulous to ask how much the family tree is illuminating the mind of the reader, but it's not hard to verify, and agree upon, whether good quality sources consider it worth dwelling on or not. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 18:38, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

Masem, I can't really follow what you are saying. Could there be a typo (apart from word/world)? What is a "genealogy approach"? Shouldn't we just stick to talking about "genealogy" or "family history"? I see these words as simply referring to content which discusses family relationships between people. Topics matching our core content policies can have their own articles written about them even if they involve family relationships, clearly, so the text here should avoid implying otherwise? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:30, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Dennis Bratland, what I am concerned about is that the current text might be read to imply that a family history/ genealogy, for example a dynastic or baronial history, can only ever be included in WP in cases like the one you describe, where the family is mentioned within the article of a topic which is not about a family itself. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:30, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

Context. WP seems to be evolving towards more of the surviving editors working in an increasing bot-like and deletionist way, with fewer people watching, and so it seems worth being careful? I see wording issues here can cause cases where people say consensus-seeking is not needed because policy demands a certain edit. I come here after reflecting on a discussion I have been reading and then participating in on this template talkpage. In that case there are multiple policy confusions, but this page has been cited especially in earlier parts of the discussion.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:30, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

I read through most of that discussion, and the main objections are not related to this policy, but to V and NOR, which seem reasonable - if the entire family tree hasn't been discussed as a whole in reliable sources, then it is probably bad form to piece-part it from multiple ones and give it undue weight. The change you've suggested to this policy would completely go against the consensus of that discussion. That discussion emphasis that we need to have family genealogies to be published as a whole in reliable sources as to show there is interest in that before including. Hence we would not include "non-notable" ones. --Masem (t) 13:44, 29 July 2019 (UTC)

There is a lot more to that ongoing discussion, but for the purposes of this discussion the important point is that you are correct: the tweak I am proposing is not very directly related. It just came to mind while looking at various policy pages. You possibly misunderstand the intention of my proposal, and reading it back myself I find it badly written. I am saying indeed that there are many very notable and easily sourceable families who we have uncontroversial articles about. We shouldn't be implying these are forbidden. Perhaps someone can think of a better wording, but my only reason for proposing to add "non-notable" was to avoid people saying that the sentence applies even to notable families who we can write about like any other notable subject. In other words, the current wording could be read as saying that any information about families can only be in WP as part of articles which are not about families. Does that make sense at all?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:24, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

RfC: terrorist incidents list criteria

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents#RfC: List criteria. – Levivich 17:37, 22 August 2019 (UTC)Template:Z48

RfC on content concerning illegal fetal tissue dealers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_Parenthood_2015_undercover_videos_controversy#/talk/8#/talk/8

I'd love some comments on this. Maybe I misunderstand the Wikipedia policies, but at least some of the content seems relevant. natemup (talk) 16:33, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Clarification requested for product pricing (Sales catalogues)

What's best practice/general consensus for including vs excluding pricing information? I've not paid attention to discussions, and tend to remove pricing on sight unless there's clear encyclopedic value to the information (eg It clearly belongs in Pyrimethamine, though I disagree on what information is in that article and its emphasis.)

Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Sales begins, An article should not include product pricing or availability information unless there is an independent source and a justified reason for the mention.

It continues with, Encyclopedic significance may be indicated if mainstream media sources (not just product reviews) provide commentary on these details instead of just passing mention.

So we're clearly excluding product reviews as sources and indicating that some level of detail must be given about the pricing in the independent sources. That seems to me to open ourselves for PROMO and RECENTISM. --Ronz (talk) 19:39, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

In that article, it seems appropriate to discuss the actual sales price to the perceived manufactured price since that inflation of the cost is seem as an issue with that. However, past that, the run down of price per country seems unnecessary (such drugs being far cheaper outside the US is common knowledge). Basically, the third-party should not just be about the price but expand more why that price is interesting or of note. --Masem (t) 19:46, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Well for many medications the price is greater in the US but not for all medications (some are actually less expensive in the US). Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 05:02, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

I'm considering a NPOVN discussion, but wanted to get a feel for what I might be missing.

Here are other examples:

• IPhone 11 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) a simple table, sourced from a simple price list. --Ronz (talk) 00:47, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

  I'd say this is a non-starter in meeting NOT and POV requirements. --Ronz (talk) 00:47, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

  The table is definitely too much. The MSRP in major regions for the product for the base version of the product is reasonable as this is generally standard for any notable standalone hardware product that has an MSRP. (in the video game area, we try to stick to only US, EU, UK, JP, and AUS as major areas that tech products impact within the broader scope of en.wiki), But not for all variations and all regions that gives. --Masem (t) 01:06, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

• Buprenorphine/naloxone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) the reason for inclusion is that a single analysis predicted a lower cost due to a lesser risk of abuse compared to buprenorphine alone. --Ronz (talk) 00:56, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

  Inclusion in the lede seems rather grossly undue based upon the sources. Inclusion of any price at all seems questionable given that the rationale is about a relative price. My suggestion would be remove the pricing entirely, but include the material on the relative pricing and why. --Ronz (talk) 00:56, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

  Definitely not needed in the lead, and the information could be given by dropping the price, and explaining it's more expensive in the US than UK (And give some %age) which is unexpected due to the rationale used there. --Masem (t) 01:06, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

  In WikiProject Motorcycling we've found it helpful to think of pricing as only one of several factoids about a product that vary from country to country and market to market, such as trim levels, or colors. The fact that a "new" model comes out with "bold new colors" is non-news that we ignore. The standard is whether sources attribute some significance to a particular price or a particular color or option. So on Suzuki Hayabusa we talk about the copper paint scheme because it attracted notice, but don't list every color scheme of every model year. We don't tabulate every color, and don't tabulate every price. We don't mention what options cost, unless sources say why we should care about a price, and the article will mention adjacent to the price why that price was worth noting. This became a huge thing with electric cars, calculating total cost of ownership, price of charging in each electricity market, etc. It became endlessly long tables of raw data that isn't really encyclopedic because it's contingent on precisely where you live. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 01:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

We have many high quality sources that comment on prices of medicines including textbooks like the British National Formulary and US government sites. Prices are important and many, including in the medical field, do not have enough clarity around them. I have had people come to the ER after seeing their family physician a few hours earlier as they were unable to afford what the FP had prescribed and were requesting a less expensive option.

The prices of medicines and transparency around them is key to public health per NGOs such as UNICEF[1] and MSF[2]. These groups are working to improve transparency in this area.

Many within the pharmaceutical industry are trying to decrease transparency around medication prices with lawsuits currently ongoing in the US.[3] We are not censored obviously. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

agree with We have many high quality sources that comment on prices of medicines...pricing should be included--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 07:50, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Prices in the lead is probably not the best location for most drug articles. MOS:PHARM suggests costs go in the "society and culture" section, however, WP:SS will apply if there is sufficient controversy around pricing. <aside>Admittedly, MOS:PHARM is an essay (albeit one referenced by MOS:MED).</aside> MOS:PHARM also supplies the instruction not to use such a section for adding WP:TRIVIA, and a recommendation that only costs in major English speaking countries are listed. Little pob (talk) 12:26, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

For many products, prices do not vary considerably from one place to another or from one supplier to another or from one purchaser to another. That is not the case for pharmaceutical drugs. Prices can be dramatically different depending on who is paying, who is insuring, who is selling, where it is selling, and when it is selling. I think drug pricing should only be included if the information is current, can be reliably sourced, and is relevant to a significant portion of the article's readership. I remember seeing a health insurance company's website used to support the cost of a drug (sorry, can't remember which article), but that price would only apply to that insurer's members - that's the kind of situation to avoid. For U.S. costs, I think sticking to wholesale pricing makes the most sense because that's the latest point in the supply chain where there will be meaningful consistency. In addition, I agree with those above that have suggested that pricing info doesn't belong in the lead, but is appropriate for a "Society and culture" section. Deli nk (talk) 12:59, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

For drug pricing I see no problem including it in general based on the above in the same manner we include the base MSRP for notable (standalone page) products, as long as it keeps the same fixed value, like what the MSRP is for other products. If that's the wholesale price, so be it; ideally it should be something that is set when the drug achieves market arrival (following all approvals) that is as unchanging as possible. But definitely needs to pick a limited number of regions as representative and other factors so that people aren't adding the price from a tiny locale to a growing list. The details go behind NOT here, but I don't see drug pricing, kept to a similar level of constraint as MSRP pricing as discussed above, to be against the principle of NOT here. --Masem (t) 14:08, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Definitely agree it should only be included if it is reliably sourced (WP:V) and that we should only include prices that will apply to a significant portion of the EN readership. Prices generally vary slowly over time with a drop when generics appear on the market. Agree a health insurance company would not be a sufficient source. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:24, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

As a general rule, for pharmaceutical drugs, I think that prices should only be included when (a) there is an unusual difference in the price between countries or (b) the price is unusually high (either absolutely, or due to a sharp price increase). To give some examples, I think we should include price information when it's $1 a month in most countries but $100 in another; when the price is above US $1,000 (some people are on drugs that cost a quarter of a million USD, and they will take that drug for life); or when the price used to be $1 and now it's suddenly $100. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Prices vary tremendously. Onasemnogene abeparvovec for example has a price of $US 2.215 million for a dose (though a person only needs one). People are going to want to consistently be able to find this data (similar to how they want to consistently find data on safety when breastfeeding) so not sure about those sorts of cutoffs. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:04, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Related to what WhatamIdoing and Doc James's comments, let me play stupid on pharma drugs. Drug gets approval to be sold, so the drug company prepares all the marketing, etc. details on the drug. At what point does the drug company say "We are going to sell this drug at this wholesale price", and is that something that is tracked, or is that not even something made public, and when drug prices are reported, they are based on a summary/average of what consumers see? --Masem (t) 17:09, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

(This is to compare to the MSRP which is nearly universally attached to the press release or first announcement of the product so we know where it comes from). --Masem (t) 17:10, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

User:Masem in Canada there is a government review board that sets maximum allowed price of a medicine upon its release.[4]

In the UK the price is avaliable in the British National Formulary. It is negotiated by the government aswell from what I understand.

For the US we have Medicaid data[5]

This is an interesting website.[6] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:16, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Something like that, then would seem to be a fair sourcing standard for this purpose (given the heavy regulation of the drug industry in most countries). Of course, it looks like the US has no equivalent so that might be where have to turn to the initial price offered by the manufacturer once on the wholesale market. --Masem (t) 19:23, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Further concerns with respect to attempts to suppress this information, an account that was pushing to remove medication prices from buprenorphine/naloxone has just been blocked for undisclosed paid editing[7]... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:27, 1 October 2019 (UTC)