Talk:Filipino shamans

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Transgender Terminology

The introductory section needs clarification. The accepted terminology in the trans community is "trans woman", for a person whose gender identity is female, and "trans man", for a person whose gender identity is male. Use of the phrase "male transgenders" is not only misleading or confusing, it is considered demeaning by trans people. Given what is known about the history of gender identity worldwide, it would seem likely that the article intends to say that trans women were known to serve as baybaylan to their communities. Gcvrsa

Earlier revisions of the article only stated that babaylan can be male or female and never mentioned anything about "male transgenders," so I removed the phrase entirely until someone can provide a source for what a "male transgender" is. Laurel Wreath of Victors ‖ Speak 💬 ‖ 19:15, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Feminized Men

In reference to the edit on babaylan that states,

@Obsidian Soul: "It is the most neutral and the clearest description in English, since it is the common overlap between the wide range of gender identities defined by "bakla". You can not use modern terminology like "homosexual" or "transwomen" either."

Can we discuss or clarify terminology used to describe the gender identity of babaylan who were not women? "Feminized men" is not the clearest description of the wide range of gender identities defined by the term bakla, as feminized men could be perceived as a derogatory way of describing a person who identifies as bakla. Bakla has gender variance that includes feminized men, transgender women, and an entirely separate third gender.

Spookyfruit (talk) 17:24, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

@Spookyfruit: I do not see how it could be perceived as "derogatory". These are not modern gender identities and should not be conflated with them. The asog were still understood to be biologically male, though feminized to varying degrees. It is something even modern bakla still acknowledge today, none of whom would be offended at being called "men". Bakla, in its original sense among shamans, is a "combined" gender. Neither men nor women, but both. A hermaphroditic third gender which allowed someone male to assume feminine roles.

"Feminized men", "effeminate male", or "men with feminized roles" are also the description used by the sources. See: [1], [2], [3] and [4]. Even the native names reflect that. Binabae literally means "feminized".

Again, these gender identities should not be confused with transwomen who would not call themselves "bakla", but rather women. Calling modern transwomen "bakla" would be offensive. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 18:23, 16 October 2018 (UTC)

Need Help with Talim

Uh Hey guys, anyone here know more about the indigenous tribes of Ancient pre-Philippine culture? please help construct Talim's. Talim is a Filipina fighting character in Soul Calibur and I think she's the very first Filipina in any game. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blueknightex (talk • contribs)

Talim is Filipino for "sharp" or "sharpness". Is the character a babaylan? — •KvЯt GviЯnЭlБ• ^Speak! 01:32, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

additional information about babaylans from the mandaya tribe in the southern part of mindanao

in the mandaya tribe we call our babaylans as balyan. Yes they are considered as witch doctors of the tribe and are said to heal the sick with the help of their companion spirits called the ABYAN. ABYANS could be any spirit from the other world(elemental or nature spirits). these spirits are believe to have chosen a human being to become their ambassador to our world.

It is said that when a spirit chooses a person, the entity will appear to that person through dreams or through a tangible form. it could be a large black dog or in its human-like form. when the person is being chosen, the spirit will then decide what to ask for that person in return for being chosen. it could be something dear to the person or it could be something else. but there are also instances that the spirits don't ask for anything in return.

now if the person is asked to become an balyan and he/refuses, bad omens will strike upon him or her or on his loved ones. they may feel sick for several days without any probable cause and cannot be treated by any medicine except if being consulted to an older balyan too.

the main purpose of the balyan is become a bridge to both worlds the world of the spirits and the world of the living. If given a chance a normal person who accidentally troubled the resting place or the bathing place of the enchanted beings. the balyan will serve to be the advocate of the person to ask apology to the enchanted beings of the forests to alleviate the punishment or curse put upon the person. it is done through a series of dance rituals performed around the offender. the balyan as she dances, also sings a PANAWAG-TAWAG or a calling with the use of the FORBIDDEN word to gather the spirits and talk to them. The forbidden word is believed to be only uttered by the balyan alone because it is the name of his ABYAN. when uttered by other persons, the ABYAN is believed to become upset and will punish the unworthy person who uttered his name. when the spirits are present, the balyan then sings an apology songs, and offers food that are prepared without salt. different balyans have different styles of rituals. there are those that chew MAMA-ON, a locale gum made by elders from ashes of shells and a leaf from a wild plant. in which, if chewed will give a red color dye like extract that will give the tongue a crimson red appearance. Some balyans tear a white chickens leg and splashes the blood around the offender; in order to apeace the enchanted beings. there are seven forbidden words that must never be uttered; only the Balyans know what those are. Eros pierced (talk) 00:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Proposed Changes

Hello, my name is Austin and I am editing this article for a college project. I would like to make a few edits to the page. First, I would like to add a table of contents. Second, I would like to provide more sources and verify citations. In addition, I would like to start a subtopic on gender neutrality and how babaylans affect Philippine society. I would love some feedback.

UrAznBoi (talk) 03:34, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

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Introduction: some statements and the relevance of given sources

Under the Spanish Empire, babaylan were often maligned and falsely accused as witches and "priests of the devil" and were persecuted harshly by the Spanish clergy. In modern Philippine society, their roles have largely been taken over by folk healers, which are now predominantly male, while some are still being falsely accused as "witches".

There are four sources attributed to this. One is this and it appears to be a collection of primary sources, or first-hand account witnesses of the events during the Spanish era. The aforementioned source doesn't contain keywords such as "falsely" (contained in the above quote), "accused", "persecuted", "modern" and "folk", so that source can't be used as support to the quote above. As Wikipedia guidelines say, primary sources should be used very carefully and it is better to use primary sources to prove that a certain quote actually appears there. I have decided to remove it until someone else can restore this by providing full citations to facilitate the verification process. In this way, sources will be used to support the actual statement it is supposed to support, with full quotes that will testify that the Wiki editor actually read the source.

Another one is this, and it is the 1903 census. This source is better, however I read the referenced page (328) and this is the relevant passage:

The priests, called katalonan in Tagalog and baibailonan in the Visayan dialect, were the principal actors at these religious ceremonies: they executed war dances armed with a lance with which they first stabbed a swine as a sacrifice, and would probably spear other animals as well, and even the slaves themselves. The Spanish missionaries looked on these ceremonies with horror; they believed they were inspired by some spirit from the infernal regions; they were described as bacchanal feasts, but as missionaries were filled with repugnance at what they had seen, the descriptions left by them were no doubt exaggerated

The said page didn't contain keywords such as "falsely", "accused", "persecuted", "harshly", "modern" and "folk". These keywords appear in other pages of the source, but they never become relevant to the topic of babaylan. The cited page apparently didn't even mention the fate of these "priests" in modern Philippine society.

Based on the explanation provided above, I am eliminating these sources. May the Wiki editor who restores them provide full citations and put them next to the relevant statement that requires references. P.S.: I am tagging here Obsidian Soul, this might interest you. Stricnina (talk) 07:57, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

Keywords are irrelevant. We are not copying the sources, we are summarizing what they say. As in the entire thing referenced, not a few sentences. Furthermore, it's weird to me how you are challenging the sourcing of the WP:LEAD, where sourcing is optional because it is quite literally a summary of the article (hence sentences in the lead are extremely generalized and can summarize multiple sources). The details of the persecution and the transition to male folk healers is discussed in-depth in the article, with more specific references. Read those.

As WP:PRIMARYCARE explicitly says, primary sources are perfectly fine to make straightforward descriptive statements. The "primary sources" you are objecting to from Blair's book are translated contemporary historical accounts of the Spanish during the colonial era. See WP:USEPRIMARY. I am using them with care, for example, by not stating the authors' biases as fact, for example that the babaylan are literally "ministers of Satan" who did "execrable blasphemies".

So unless you're saying the statements are false because they were "accurately identified" (not falsely accused) as being "real" witches, who were "beloved" (not harshly persecuted) by the Spanish, and that modern albularyo are "real" doctors not folk healers, your removal of sources is unconstructive and unwarranted. Challenge the content, not the wording.

I'm also wondering why this seems to be different from your similarly mistaken earlier removal. On top of that you add a citations needed tag for the entire article for your removal of three sources, in an article with 70+ sources. All of these seems WP:POINTY. I was expecting you to justify why your earlier edit was warranted, not make a fresh round of deletions and do a WP:DRIVEBY. Please don't make this personal. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 10:32, 12 February 2020 (UTC)