Talk:White supremacy

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Wikipedia seems to promote White supremacists over Antifa.

Wikipedia present a nice definition of White supremacists. They don't say anything about terrorists activities that they do. Where as for Antifa they put a lot of negative things: terrorist, illegal, which is probably lies by white people and push by Trump! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.175.113 (talk) 17:31, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

That's interesting, because what we usually get are screeds from white supremacists and neo_Nazis that we actively disfavor them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

I have opened the newly created section /political violence/ with Lynching in the United States. Feel free to improve the article. Regards, Alcaios (talk) 20:36, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

RfC: "Racist" vs. "racial supremacist" on White supremacy and Black supremacy

Black supremacy is referred to as a racial racial supremacist belief, while white supremacy is referred to as a racist belief. I do not see any reason why different terms should be used to describe them and I believe that we should either refer to both of them as racial supremacist or both of them as racist. GamerKiller2347 (talk) 00:16, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Have you put a notification on Black supremacy of this RfC? Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:02, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I just did. GamerKiller2347 (talk) 03:59, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Racist on both articles. "Recial supremacist" is not necessary when the article titles include "supremacy". Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:16, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Per Pincrete's comment below, use "racist" on this article, and "racial supremacist" on Black supremacy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Beyond My Ken, the reason the Black supremacy does not use the word 'racist', is because no one has yet found a WP:RS that describes it thus! There are precious few sources saying anything about black supremacy, beyond certain, fairly fringe, orgs using supremacist rhetoric. I think there is a confusion between 'racist' as used by the general public, and when used in the relevant disciplines. Pincrete (talk) 07:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Excellent point! No RS, no description. I'll change my !vote. Beyond My Ken (talk) 07:21, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• White supremacy is racist and any other articles should be discussed on the appropriate talk page, based on relevant sources.

We need to be very cautious of false equivalence here. White supremacy is a widely used term with a broad set of meanings. It is also very well documented, being discussed by countless reliable sources across multiple disciplines for over a century. "Black supremacy", on the other hand, is rare. The SPLC uses it sometimes, and maybe a handful of other reliable sources, on rare occasions, and almost always in reference to the Nation of Islam. Otherwise it is seldom used, and with ambiguous meanings. The only commonality among these usages is that it is a counterpoint or response to "white supremacy". There is no obligation to treat these terms identically. Grayfell (talk) 04:56, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• White supremacy is almost universally described as racist but no one has yet found a source to describe 'black supremacy' thus - for various reasons - but either we stick to WP:V, or we start WP:ORing "sky is blue" arguments. This is somewhat akin to arguments about whether women can be sexist - in the ordinary sense of offensive, obviously yes, in the more technical sense less so. There have been various RfC's on the black supremacy article, and this seems a somewhat dishonest way to circumvent those, based simply on the false idea that the two articles should mirror each other. Remarks made by supremacists of any colour may be equally offensive to those on the receiving end, but some offensive beliefs are backed up by power and numbers, others are not - those are aspects of the criteria for the more technical sense of 'racist'.Pincrete (talk) 07:17, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
• Use a source. I think the lack of content on that page shows this isn't a widely reported on phenomenon. If you can find a source that says "black supremacy is a racist belief" I think you can make the edit. Otherwise it's WP:OR. Wikipedia isn't about self-determined consistency across articles. You might have a point if editors refused to make the change and RS are calling it "a racist belief" rather than "a racial supremacist belief".

Of course, a question arises: do any articles even call it "a racial supremacist belief" or is that original research as well? ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 14:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

It is actually very difficult finding sources that say anything - apart from SPLC or similar periodically saying this or that group, use supremacist rhetoric or espouse bl sup beliefs (usually fringe religious groups). The article has survived several AfDs - it seems bomb-proof. Memory tells me that "a racial supremacist belief" was a concession made by former editor Malik Shabbaz, but it may well be WP:OR also.Pincrete (talk) 15:38, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment from Creator of RfC: Personally, I believe that determining what is and isn't racist is a matter of opinion. For example, determining whether or not Donald Trump is racist is a topic of debate because no one can come to an agreement on what is and isn't racist. GamerKiller2347 (talk) 02:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

This is incorrect. Wikipedia reflects WP:RS. Reliable sources describe white supremacy as racist, and sources agree on this. Indeed, it's the textbook example of racism. Individuals might argue about whether or not some things are racist, but white supremacy is not one of those things. So even if you want to argue that white supremacy isn't racist, you will still need sources "debating" this. Dismissing this as an "opinion" is unhelpful at best and misguided at worst, and this undermines your argument. Introducing Trump into this discussion is especially unhelpful. Grayfell (talk) 03:53, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: If I can't get anyone on my side in 24 hours, I will end this RfC. GamerKiller2347 (talk) 21:12, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
• There is a chapter in Fleming, Crystal Marie, 1981-. How to be less stupid about race : on racism, White supremacy, and the racial divide. Boston, Massachusetts. ISBN 978-0-8070-5077-4. OCLC 1040083900.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) called "THE BLACK SUPREMACY UNICORN FALLACY" that some might find helpful. Vexations (talk) 21:38, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
• Comment: Could saying that white supremacy is not racist be described as an unpopular opinion? White supremacy is ALMOST universally described as racist. Notice that I bolded and capitalized the word "almost". That means that there are some people that don't think it is racist. As such, we could see the people who don't think it's racist as having an unpopular opinion. We could use this sentence as an opener:

• White supremacy or white supremacism is a belief that white people are superior to people of other races and therefore should be dominant over them. It is almost universally described as racist.

— GamerKiller2347 (talk) 01:47, 15 June 2020 (UTC)