Talk:History of India

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Pseudo-history

First sentence of the inrtoduction: "The history of India can be traced in fragments to as far back as 700,000 years ago." This will be news the majority of anthropologists. PiCo 01:45, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

" According to the Indo-Aryan migration hypothesis, the Aryans, a semi-nomadic people, possibly from Central Asia or northern Iran migrated into the north-west regions of the Indian subcontinent between 2000 BCE and 1500 BCE. Their inter-mingling with the earlier Dravidian cultures apparently resulted in classical Indian culture as we know today." ----- I want to ask from this sentence written in article which says that current Indian culture is intermingling of Aryans and earlier Dravidian culture. Were aryans coming in very small fraction of original Indians were so much capable that that could generate present Indian culture throughout North & Central India leaving only four states of South India.This is said via intermingling. Aryans coming to India were so much in population so as to evenly intermingle throughout North & Central Indian sub-continent. They were living nomadic or semi-nomadic type life style. There are presently many nomadic tribes in India having good population ( % can be same as Aryans coming to past Indian subcontinent ). But urban or village dwelling Indians are never impressed with their primitive culture. So, similarly ancient Indians leaving in planned towns , seaports or villages over very huge area of India and who were Merchants ( as they were having export business as evident from planned sea-ports of vast Indus civilization ) ,Artists ( making so many different types of arts from painting ,pottery , cotton cloth making & dyeing, making small metal statues, making different ornaments from gold-silver & others ) and farmers ( reaping rich crops )  ; how they can intermingle with nomadic type living Aryans.

Britishers have ruled full Indian sub-continent, they were not nomads. They were rulers having much much more political power than nomad type aryans who were just migrants like parsis ( zorastrians from Iran ) coming to India. So, it is impossible to impart such a culture throughout past India so fast that it feels dramatic when thought. Not only culture but language of Indo-European type over vast area of India so quickly ( max. within 500 years as per Aryan hyposis ) that even south Indians adopted their vedic religion. South India started using Sanskrit direct or based on it words heavily. Not only North but also South India adopted their Sanskrit language as religious language.South Indians were chanting Sanskrit mantra and their languages are also heavily contains Sanskrit direct or based words - except current Tamil language as Tamilians deliberately removed Sanskrit based words from Tamil after Aryan Invasion Theory was proposed in 1850's.

Sanskrit ( so called Aryan language ) not having traces in their supposed homeland area in Steppes. So, it must have been formulated to currently known status of Sanskrit language from so called PIE in Indian sub-continent with very advanced grammatical & phonetical characterisitc typical of Sanskrit. But same features are also found only in Europe's extreme western language Lithuanian. Why so called Indo-European language family's both ends are showing very close affinity in word constuction, typical grammer, phonetics etc. leaving the middle languages and not giving their typical charactristics. This is totally impossible to occur independently if you know both the languages' characteristics.

WIN 07:59, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

What? "advanced grammatical & phonetical characteristics"? No one language can ever be anymore "advanced" than any other. Sanskrit is certainly a most beautiful language, but that is more the result of Pāṇini's work in the 3rd century BC than through natural language change. And Lithuania is not in the extreme west of Europe at all; see the map on the nation's page. The similarities between the two languages are mostly a result of the fact they once shared a sprachbund; the area of satemization that affected a series of shared sound changes in the Indo-Iranian (of which Sanskrit is a member) and Balto-Slavic (of which Lithuanian is a member) proto-languages. These sound changes are not reconstructed for having occured in an earlier Proto-Indo-European context due to their absence in other branches. Putting the Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic languages so close to each other is not mere conjecture either; there is infact an Indo-Iranian language still spoken in the Caucasus, in South Russia, to this day: The Ossetic language. The Ossetian language is unique enough to clearly not be a result of recent migration, but close enough to be classified as specifically Indo-Iranian. It is the sole survivor of a large language continuum that spread across central asia, but which was replaced in historical times by the expansion of Turkic speaking cultures from the east. Your dismissal of the Aryan migration is a bit confused as well - the Aryans where not just nomads, they would have been as much a part of the Central Asian and Indian city state cultures as the post-Harrapan "native" Indians where. The advantage the Aryans had was simple: animals. Pastoralism is in many ways, especially to an early bronze age culture, much more efficient than crop based food production. Their culture of animal rearing would have been very attractive to the peoples of the Indus Valley, especially following the drought that led to the collapse of their agriculture based society. The people of the Indus valley would most likely not have been "reaping rich crops" as you put it. Concerns about "civilization" would have become irrelevent; the need for food outweighs cultural imperalism. And with the reliance of the pre-Aryan inhabitants on the Aryan food production methods, the distinction between "nomadic" and "settled" would have blurred very quickly. The Aryan way of life, in all it's forms, found it's way into India. Intermarriage and cultural exchange occured; the "intermingling" you took issue at. This initial intermingling, of course, wasn't what led to Sanskrit being spoken all over North India. What it led to, however, was the roots of the Vedic civilization, which subsequently grew to have a tremendous influence over the whole of the sub-continent, through it's culture and society, through it's language, and through it's religion. There's nothing bizarre or unexpected about what happened with the Indus Valley peoples and the Aryans. We've seen it happen many times, even in recorded history. One case is that of the Byzantium empire in Anatolia, where supposedly "barbarian" peoples, the Turks, become so ingrained into a civilization that they found their culture becoming dominant. Anatolia is now known as "Turkey", and speaks the Turkish language, because of that cultural change. --Krsont 01:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Your Aryan Animal Theory never makes any good sense. Please study some ancient sanskrit and dravidian language grammar so that you can get some insight into the above mentioned topic. Its a total foolish concept that the uncivilized peoples from Baltic region mingled with the civilized population of India. There is hardly any evidence other than this foolish wibly wobly 'IE-language theory', which is the deleberate creation of the west, only to share the credit of India's great civilization and culture. Can you point any baltic mathematician or philosopher or epics or any thing whic can be comparable to Indias around 100BC? So please dont post any biased comments. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.124.63.196 (talk) 03:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC).

"Sanskrit is a most beutiful language" as also told by you above - how any language becomes beutiful when language is not any woman. Language is called beutiful from it's construction point of view, due to Sanskrit's grammatical structure which is purely very logical & mathematical, Sanskrit's ability to construct new words, the unique phonetic characteristics which is only possible in Sanskrit & daughter Indian languages ( if you can read Sanskrit script then you can pronounce exactly it without knowing that Sanskrit word which is not possible in English like languages - one example `Cut' and `Put' - both are written in the same way but pronounced differently - this is biggest drawback of English type languages. That's why Indian people do not require phonetics to learn. It's interwoven in their language so easily that European scholars were amazed by Sanskrit when they came to know first via Arab scholars. It's same as number system of 1 to 9 and concept & number of 0 `zero' and decimal system. Now everybody find it so casual that we forget it's unique importance and that it was only Indians ( not babylonians, greeks,romans - e.g. X for 10 and XX for twenty , egypticians etc. ) who were able to develop this unique mathematics which was the main foundation for Europe's Industrial revolution. )

And, Baltic language area of Lithuania is at western shore of Europe mainland and not in middle of Europe.

Panini has just codified Sanskrit grammer in Algebric type of rules which is unique in the world and smallest also. He has not developed already in use Sanskrit grammer.And, by the way if you know anything about TRUE Indian history then you should be knowing that during 600 - 500 BC of Mahavir & Budhdha's time Sanskrit was no more common language of people. Already Prakrit languages like Pali & Ardhamagadhi were speken by people. So, to prevent natural changes in Sanskrit ( which is very common in the world languages and that's why they are not same from origin time to current status. One e.g. English ) Due to Panini's rules , Sanskrit has not changed till today. Sanskrit as a language has not evolved but was already in vey high format. That's why Sanskrit verses reciting with exact pronunciation was very important and very much stressed upon. That's why you have all vedas still intact without any sound change. As Sanskrit was already in it's best form , so any sound change or speaking error was told as degradation ( called Apbhransh in Sanskrit ). If we take Aryan supporter's words then Sanskrit developed & died ( died in language of common people's sense ) within 500 - 700 years. And, this time period is very very small for language like Sanskrit. Even, scholars agree that to create vast knowledge & deep thinking as revered in Sanskrit scriptures is not at all possible in small time frame as told by Max Muller & supporters.

Your Aryans having animals as big plus point over Indus Valley civilization really shows that what limited knowledge or thinking or logic you have. You are telling as if Indus Valley people were not having any animals or having scarcity of animals. Indus valley civilization could feed upto 5 milloin people and having surplus ( without agricultural surplus there can not be any trading / manufacturing people ). This civilization was largest of all prevalent civilizations in terms of area & population. How they were doing farming ? Must be using some tractors instead of bulls as there was scarcity of animals as told by you !!! And with bulls naturally comes cows.They are revered in Rig-Ved as Saraswati river giving milk and dairy products. But when `so called' aryans came to India , Saraswati river was completely dried up. So, how `so called' aryans' cattle ( not millions but atleast in thousands - who came `flying' crossing High Mountains of Himalayas as there are no archeological finds of them ) survived in dried Saraswati river area. Indus Valley civilization's people started migrating in all directions when Saraswati river started strinking in length & width much before 1900 BC when it completely dried up from Indian soil. That's why you find non-ocean going two rivers in Afghanistan & Iran naming Harahvaiti ( Saraswati's pronunciation shifting from `S' to `H' )

India is having world's highest no. of animals. And, as per your logic cows , bulls , buffalos and even horses as previously asserted by Aryan Invasion theory supporters must have come from Steppes. Then Indus Valley civilization's people must be using tractors for farming as you implied above !!! There are so many points which I can elaborate but you can find them on the net.

Turks were famous ruthless invasioners and `so called' Aryans were migrationers as per current model prevailing among this theory supporter. Invasion model is past. Turkey example would have been good at that time !!!

Why Pastoral nomad `Aryans' require to develop sophisticated Astronomy for cattle rearing. You can find present Astronomy of Indians totally based on Sanskritic nomenclature also mentioned in Rig-Ved. So as per Aryan Theory , this Sanskrit name based Astronomy must be given by Aryans. So this PIE based Astronomical names must be found in Steppes region as this names must have developed in pastoral steppes !!! But strangely this is not the case at all. Then if previous so called Indus Valley dwelling people had developed it then why they will give Sanskrit based astronomical names when they do not know Sanskrit only. And, do not tell that " Intermingling" was so effective that they found "very attractive" to use Sanskrit nomenclature like above mentioned Animal rearing.

Advanced astronomy would be required by Agricultural society for getting exact time of raining which is fix in India, due to South West Monsoon winds. Only India has Monsoon mechanishm and not steppes. Astronomy will be required in Navigation which Indus Valley civilization's traders would require for export purpose.

You first gain some knowledge in this matter or develop some logic before speaking anything about it.

WIN 06:39, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I did not say that Aryan animals came to be used in the Indus Valley, just that their pastoral methods did - and if we look at modern Indian cattle, we find that they descend entirely from cattle domesticated seperately in India, not from the Central Asian stock the Aryans in Afghanistan and the surround area would have used. What was adopted was the Aryan way of life, not their genetics - whether through cows or people. And yes, the Indus river was dry, (erroneously labeled Sarasvati - the Vedic Sarasvati is more likely to be the Helmud in Afghanistan) but that was entirely the reason for the switch to pastoralism. The steppes are also a dry place, but pastoralism succeeded there where crop based food production could not. The Aryans would also not have needed "sophisticated astronomy" to rear cattle. Just a basic understanding of the cycle of the year, for which there are ample reconstructions for in Proto-indo-European. Infact, astronomy is much more important for agriculture - hence it's later development in Sanskrit speaking Vedic India, when agriculture became a viable solution again. And I'm glad you mentioned the monsoon - yet another reason why the intermingling would have to have happened. Vital information like that would have to have been shared between the two groups. I'd also disagree with your dismissal of the Turks as "ruthless invasioners"; their culture spread as much by peaceful means as it did millitarily. Even in modern times we see that Central Asia is a mixture of Iranian and Turkic genetics and culture, with mostly Turkic languages in the north and Iranian in the south. The same sort of thing happened in India. --Krsont 13:19, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

"erroneously labeled Sarasvati - the Vedic Sarasvati is more likely to be the Helmud in Afghanistan" - Dear first brush up your knowledge and don't write anything. If Rig - Vedic Saraswati river is Helmund then where are Yamuna and Shutudri ( Satluj ) and other rivers Sapta Sindhu big ( Seven rivers ) rivers and Ganga river. Please find them also in Afghanistan. And, Sindhu ( Indus ) never was a dry river as written above as it still flows. And, why Hindus are still reciting Saraswati river's name in Sanskrit verse form alongwith other big Indian rivers like Ganga, Yamuna , Godavari , Sindhu , Kaveri ( while taking daily bath ) if Saraswati was never ever an Indian holy & big river or as said in Rig-Ved - biggest & mightiest of all Sapta Sindhu rivers.

You are telling past assertions which are absurd in today's context. I urge you & all others to go through `Discuss' pages of Aryan Invasion Theory and Indo-Aryan Migration. There are written ample for your kind of people to increase knowledge in this matter or about your pseudoism.

Pastoralism will not be possible in any desert so as Indian desert.But Agriculture is still very much possible in neighbouring richly fertile Indus Civilization areas of Punjab,Haryana and Gujarat. So during that drying of Saraswati river time , there were neighbouring areas of Indus Valley civilization which were & are richly fertile due to other big rivers. Drying of any big & mightly river will be very gradual process and not overnite or within some 100 - 200 years and desertification of Rajashthan will be very very slow process which is even not possible within 100 - 200 years but 1000 - 2000 years atleast which was one reason of Saraswati river ending in Desert and not in Ocean which is mentioned in Mahabharat. So, Mahabharat must have been composed & associated with Iran & Afghan as per your logic !!!!!!! ( but some way it is; via Gandhari - princess of Gandhar - mother of Kauravs who faught Great war of Mahabharat and Afghanistan was part of Ancient India ) In Mahabharat Ghandhari is called upon as Arya nari ( Arya woman - means Noble & Virtueus woman ) and never ever his son Duryodhan who was non-vertueus or not noble as a person. So, you can understand that in Sanskrit scriptures term `Arya' is always called upon as respect gesture to Noble persons and not with their Non-Noble children. So to find some Aryan race or lineage in it is biggest joke ( or rather mis-guide ) of 19th century which is still hanging on you.

Greek Historians ( check Pliny's writings about India ) coming with Alexander to ancient India ( that area is modern Pakistan ), have mentioned that Indians are having calender going back to more than some 6,000 years ( this was noted around 350 BC ).Then how come modern Western Scholars are not teaching the world about India's ancient astronomical advances which would be first in the world ( older than Mesopotamia. But India should not be credited that was mantra of that time's British rulers ). And, that time also Indians were not having any memory of some Aryan nomadic people coming to India and giving language, religion, caste system, advanced astronomy knowledge etc. to original Indians as it is not present even in Greek records. These ancient greek historians mind was not plagued like Max Muller and their followers. So, their written records should be believed who met ancient Indians and appreciated India & her people with amaze and not 1850's British Empire paid servants like Max Muller who has written baseless things about `aryans' which are not having any proofs and who has written twisted translation or mis-interpreted Rig-Ved.

Man, have some common sense or gather some info before writing here.

WIN 04:47, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Krsont knows very well what he is talking about. While you appear to be regurgitating propaganda which, believe me, Wikipedia talkpages are already full of, no need to add another layer. Of course the Mahabharata was composed in India, that was more than 1500 years after the migration.[ THEN HOW BUDHDHA & MAHAVIR DURING 600 BC - 500 BC KNOWS OF MAHABHARAT.THEN I URGE YOU TO SHIFT DATES OF BOTH !!!!! -- by WIN ] If the Helmand was the Sarasvati of the early Rigveda (which is not certain, but a serious possibility. I wouldn't say "likely" here, but "possibly"), the name would have been transferred to an Indian river before 1200 BC. It was only after another millennium that the epics were composed. Migrating peoples take their toponyms with them, the USA is full of them (e.g. Zurich vs. Zurich, Kansas) dab (ᛏ) 10:58, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Do not feed trolls. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 12:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Dab, just read what Krsont and I have written , understanding each words properly and then tell me. Your Zurich example is what can be told by me that when desert ending Saraswati river ( during Mahabharat time or before ) made migration of ancient Indians in every directions , they found similar non-ocean ending rivers in Afghan & Iran and that's why Saraswati name was given to them also - in memory of their ancient Indian river. So, people shifting to new places ( this new place should be non or scarcely - populated and culture should not be deep rooted as it was in U.S.A. when Zurich name was given to Kansas city. Now , you can not change that city name from people's mind easily. ) Same way when Saraswati river when started shrinking in width and it was no longer mightiest river as mentioned in Rig-Ved and this was before Mahabharat time as that time Saraswati river was ending in desert instead of sea, ancient Indians started migrating towards North-West and reached Afghan & Iran's non-ocean going river and named it Saraswati. Saraswati river's mention in Rig-Ved and Mahabharat are not my speculations like some Aryan Theory but it is clearly mentioned in it that way. This can not be mis-interpreted or mis-represented.

If Mahabharat is written in India then why it mentions desert ending drying Saraswati river. If Helmund or Iran's Harahvaiti river is original Saraswati then Mahabharat should be MahaAfghan or MahaIran. And, what about Saraswati's full dried riverbed findings after American Satellite pictures.

Man , Saraswati was an Indian river is accepted by scholars. Come out from past and gather current latest info.

This shows that Western people who have not read Indian scriptures thoroughly and then asserting it his belief without any logic. READ POINTS PROPERLY & LOGICALLY UNDERSTANDING THAT TIME FRAME.

And, Mahabharat was not written in `so called' Epic Age during 1000-500 BC and if this is pure story came from some person's mind then why that person ( i.e. Ved Vyas ) is required to give astronomical positions of Sun, Moon,planats, nakshtra ( stars constellations ) , ecllipse , bright comet etc. all astronomical things at the time of starting of Mahabharat war. In India, you will find so many places associated with Mahabharat or Ramayan and that places are revered still today as that particular place from Mahabharat or Ramayan. There are no clash literally between people about that association and nor geographically also. Means Kurukshetra is in Haryana and not in U.P. or M.P. Panchvati is in Nasik not in Punjab or Tamilnadu. Rameshwar at Tamilnadu shore not in Kerala or Maharashtra shore. There are many many places like this. But to understand , you should know Indian scriptures first.Otherwise it will be all going above your head and still you will assert the same old stuff.

And, you western people still trying to find some Troy ! For you, Mahabharat or Ramayan's so many places perfect association ( sometimes with same old names carried perfectly till today ) is some fabricated epic story. Then what Saraswati river is doing in Rig-Ved and Mahabharat ( supposed to have been composed around 1500 BC - 500 BC - as per Aryan Theory ) when there some big Indian river was already totally dried atleast before 1800 BC as found by geologists.

PERFECT PSEDOISM !!!

WIN 09:15, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Indian to be changed into Ancient Pakistani.

The term Ancient Pakistani is a valid term, as the following encyclopaedic sources. and qualified professors state, and make use of the term.[1][2][3]

Definition of Ancient Pakistan: The history and heritage belonging to the Pakistani people, or the land which is now Pakistan.

Therefore its only logical to refer to Pakistani history as Ancient Pakistani first, instead of Subcontinental Indian, South Asian, or Asian.

As you can see, there is already an article for Ancient Pakistani history, which only includes history within the Pakistani borders. However Ancient Indian history article contains the history of the entire South Asia.

Either the article should be renamed to South Asian history, or references of history which is not within Indian borders should be removed.

Thank you. Unre4L 23:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The first ref is a Pakistani book, the second never mentions the phrase "ancient pakistan" and the third is a blog. Pakistan's history starts on August 15, 1947 as it was an artificial construct from India and parts of Afghanistan. Do explain 930k ghits for ancient India compared to a paltry 8k for ancient pakistan. Or 54 for ancient pakistan on academic sites and 39400 for ancient india using the same criteria.Bakaman 04:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, did you visit the sources? The first Reference is an internationally accepted book, used as a source for a lot of articles by a lot of Universities. Seach for the book on google. The 2nd reference. Try using the search function. There is a title in the article. "The Greek Influence on the Languages of Ancient Pakistan" The third reference might be a blog, but I picked it because of this quote: ""Some of the seals depict an impression of snakes, mostly associated with ancient Pakistan and Afghanistan, while others portray Mesopotamian champions or squatting women hailing from Susa," Dr. Majidzadeh noted." Note the guys title.

Pakistan and India were created in 1947. I didnt question that. But the Pakistani people didnt pop up in 1947. They are the people who have always lived in the land of Pakistan, and their ancestors are the ones Indians dont have anything to do with.

ps I can give you way more sources. But I dont see how these ones arent good for you.

And notice how all the sources are .edu. I dont need to explain the seach results. It should be obvious. Most of the Ancient India results shouldnt be there. Thats the point I am trying to put across to you. Unre4L 04:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Shouldnt be there? Who are you to define what should and shouldnt be there? I used the search function for "ancient Pakistan" and it was not present in the second reference. The 8k or so "ancient pakistan" sites (most of which are from some "Pakistani history" geocities site that spouts anti-Hindu venom) shouldnt be there. You do need to explain why a fictional historiography only nets 54 .edu google hits.Bakaman 04:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I would be very interested in knowing what is meant by an internationally accepted book. Are there things which are called books in one country but not recognised internationally as books? Jokes apart, I think this issue has been discussed a lot on wikipedia before, and there's no point in repeating the same arguments ad nauseam. deeptrivia (talk) 07:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Because the history belongs to the Pakistani people, and its being ripped from them. How would you feel if it happened to you? I have provided proper references and you cant go about this. Why Should Pakistani history be called Indian? Answer that for a second. Its like calling it Asian, it might be true but you could be way more specific. By Indian I mean Subcontinental. Check the 2nd reference again. Half way down the page. The title is in Bold. Internationally accepted book. I meant, that the book is accepted by major universities in America, and is accepted as a source. There is a book written about IVC, by some American group, and they specifically called it "Pakistan Studies", aswell as mentioning Ancient Pakistan. Your argument has to be a bit more than questioning by rights. Unre4L 09:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

oh do get over yourselves. We need one WikiProject covering the pre-1947 history of the Indian subcontinent. Either do it at Wikipedia:WikiProject Indian history but make that project acceptable to Pakistani editors (less flags), or do it at Wikipedia:WikiProject History of South Asia, but not both. "South Asia" and "Indian subcontinent" are two terms for the same region, only "South Asia" is the term used in contemporary political contexts, and "Indian subcontinent" is used in historical or geographical contexts. Thus, for a WikiProject on history, Wikipedia:WikiProject History of India would be better. If necessary, do sub-projects, one for post-1947 RoI, one for British India, one for Mughal India, one for Iron Age India, one for IVC and so forth. dab (𒁳) 09:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

India is NOT acceptable. Its just a blatant excuse to cut the Pakistani people out of their own history. This article has to be renamed to South Asia. India is a modern country, and you cant have a history article for the Indian subcontinent when the subcontinent has never been united as a country before 1850. And while we are at it we will make an article of Asian history aswell. Unre4L 09:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

no. The Republic of India (Bhārata Gaṇarājya) is a modern country. India, otoh, is a geographical region, including the RoI, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal. That India isn't, at present, politically united is beside the point, especially since it has been before 1850, and since this is about the history of India (including 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th century history). dab (𒁳) 10:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Last time I checked a world map, India was a modern Country, and please know your history. South Asia has never been united as a country before the British Raj. This is not what the argument is about though. I have provided sources for Ancient Pakistan being a valid term, so it doesnt really matter what you think. Ancient Pakistan is the most logical term to use. Unre4L 10:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

you are free to do a straw poll on this, but it appears that you are the only editor with this opinion at present. dab (𒁳) 10:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

To Unre4L, if you ignore the southern tip and perhaps some of the eastern parts, India aka. the subcontinent has been politically united on numerous occasions. Please see Mughal Empire, Maurya Empire and British Raj, all of which existed before 1947. Gizza^{Chat ©} 10:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Keep the book aside ! The whole South Asian region (as you say it) was known to the world as "India", not "Pakistan" and that's the reason why it is known as "Ancient India" and not ancient pakistan. India may be a modern country, but this region (inc. Pak) has been known as India since BCE times. I hope you get the point. --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 10:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, but that's also why India (disambiguation) should reside at India, and the present India at Republic of India, to avoid confusion and ambiguity. dab (𒁳) 10:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

India back then was a subcontinent. NOT a country. people never referred to it as a country. The whole subcontinents history is being passed to Modern India, because of the name confusion, therefore its only logical to change it to South Asian history...unless Indians were using this confusion to their advantage. I am not saying South Asia should be called Ancient Pakistan, I am saying the history of Pakistan within its borders should be referred to as Pakistan, and I have just provided sources that Ancient Pakistan is a valid term. Using it will clear a lot of confusion. Ancient India is regarded as the ancient history of ROI. Please dont throw around different meanings, as you know they are not used anyway.

Take the example. If Germany changed its name to Europe, could it claim the history of all of Europe? I have provided .edu sources like I was asked. I still cant believe you are arguing.Unre4L 15:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unre4L, believe me, you have made your point now. If Germany unilaterally changed its name to Europe, our History of Europe would still deal with the history of the "European subcontinent", just as our History of India still deals with the history of the Indian subcontinent. dab (𒁳) 15:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The 1989 OED has:

"India: A large country or territory of southern Asia, lying east of the river Indus and south of the Himalaya mountains (in this restricted sense also called Hindustan); also extended to include the region further east (Farther or Further India), between this and China."

dab (𒁳)

Unre4l, you say that the book [4] is "accepted by major universities in America" on the basis that you found it in UIUC's library catalog. This doesn't amount to academic endorsement of Ancient Pakistan. All American libraries would also have Mein Kampf. So one can also claim that all American universities support the Nazi ideology. Do you see the problem with this argument? If you could find many (or any) universities that use this book as a textbook, that would be interesting to see. deeptrivia (talk) 17:00, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

What is your point. I gave you 3 references like some people asked for. now you have to pick on them and decide to not accept any because you dont like one of the references? This is ridiculous- Obviously I havent made my point or you would know that Ancient India was not a country, never had united people, never had a single government, never had a single united history. India is the subcontinent, granted, but its amazingly misleading to refer to anything as Subcontinental Indian, and you know why. According to you, Pakistanis and Bengalis should be called Indian because they are living on the Indian subcontinent.

When I get home, I will post a few more sources, and then wait for someone to point out that they didnt like the way the references had a number in the web address since its so unprofessional. Sigh. Unre4L 17:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Other references like the blog, etc. have already been discussed. deeptrivia (talk) 17:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I DIDNT use the blog as a reference. Read the quote in the blog, which is of a doctor using the term Ancient Pakistan. Unre4L 17:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Here you go. This source uses the book as a reference, and note how the author refers to the subcontinent as South Asia. [5] Here is another .edu site using an "ancient Pakistan" title research paper as a reference [6]

Let me know if you dislike the background colour of the site. I have to admit. Thats an acceptable reason to reject educational sources. Unre4L 17:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No one is denying that India lies in South Asia, but are you saying that scholars prefer "Ancient South Asia" over "Ancient India"? You can always find a handful of people doing anything. The question is what is the preference of the mainstream. A Google test makes it pretty clear. Also, giving too much importance to political unity in historical periods is not all that justified. Sparta and Athens both belong to Ancient Greece, don't they? Governments have started mattering so much only recently, because with modern technology, they can now control the lives and the minds of the people. In fact, now governments can also completely brainwash their citizens by manipulating history through their revisionist propagandas. All this was near impossible historically, and mostly people away from the capital city won't even know who is their king. Government's role in people's lives was minimal. We are certainly not talking of India in historical periods as a single political entity, but as a cultural entity unified by many common features. Even today, after 60 years of Pakistan studies, Punjabis/Sindhis and Bengalis have much more in common than Punjabis/Sindhis and Persians. deeptrivia (talk) 17:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

So you pretty much admitted that you also know Ancient India was not a country and only united by nothing? So they clearly need a shared history? People in Middle East have a shared culture, but they dont claim each others history . And in case you didnt know Bengalis are far from Pakistanis, and so are South Indians. I am not going to argue. I gave you sources that Ancient Pakistan is a valid term, used by many educational institutions, and its only logical to use the term to describe what it means. Unre4L 17:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Eratosthenes world map, 200 BCE

Please go through the definitions of nation, country and state, and understand the differences. There is no need for India to have been a unified "state" in order to use the term Ancient India. And the fact that Bengalis and Pakistanis are on two different sides of the subcontinent, and yet have so much in common, and Pakistanis and Persians are adjacent to each other and still have not so much in common is exactly my point. Although, there's no academically recognized controversy regarding "Ancient India" vs. "Ancient Pakistan", I'll still point you to Wikipedia:Naming_conflict#How_to_make_a_choice_among_controversial_names, regarding what criteria should be used to discuss this on wikipedia, and what criteria should not be used. This makes the matter pretty clear, and I think no further discussion is need on this. deeptrivia (talk) 18:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

With all due respect, I dont think you should tell me that there shouldnt be a discussion. Yes there should be discussion, because a lot of people are unhappy. You obviously dont know any Bengalis, I know lots, and trust me when I say they are generally different in appearance, They have a south east asian look to them, and Persians are more similar to Pakistanis than you think...Ahmadinejad? I am not going to argue who is similar to who, and the naming thing is a Problem, A Big Problem.

Yes there is a need for India to have been somewhat united. Because when you group histories together, you are saying they are the same people, or have always been united. India was simply a way to refer to the Subcontinent. Just like people say Europe, thats what India meant to people. There was no Unity what so ever. Yes you can call Pakistani history, Subcontinental Indian , or Asian. There is nothing false about this, but Ancient Pakistani first, and there is a problem with Subcontinental Indian, India is modern state, and Ancient India means the Ancient history of that state. By calling South Asian history, Indian, you are claiming that South Asia has been a state AND Modern India is now the successor state. You see, this is a big problem.

The Term South Asian, and Ancient Pakistani are not only valid terms, but have to be used to clear up the confusion created by the recent 1947 name disputes. (Nehru basckstabbed everyone by naming ROI, India). However I dont see why we are having this discussion. I provided you with Sources, and arent you suppose to accept .edu sources? Thats at least what I was under the impression of, and sorry, you might not be a bad person, but I havent exactly had a good time with Indians, and Pakistan related articles on this board. Some of you guys have been on my back, reporting my articles (unrelated to India) on false pretences, and even getting me banned on false pretences. Unre4L 21:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unre4L, I think Ancient Rome is a comparable example. Notice that Ancient Rome is not only about what happened in Rome 2000 years ago but the entire empire, which included Southern Europe and Northern Africa. But you may ask, why don't we call it the Ancient Mediterranean Empire? Because it is not a term used by scholars of any sort. Similarly, Ancient Pakistani is rarely used compared to Ancient Indian when describing a region two or three thousand years ago where modern-day Pakistan is situated. Wikipedia IS NOT based on the truth nor it is not based on what is techinically correct. It is based on Verifiability. If 999 out of 1000 sources describe IVC as part of Ancient Indian history and 1 calls it Ancient Pakistani, we use Ancient Indian. Sorry but there is nothing we can do about it. Gizza^{Chat ©} 02:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Ancient Rome is not a problem. There is no country calling itself Rome. Ancient Rome does not claim history which existed prior to its era. That history goes to the country in which its situated. And you are mistaken about 2 things. The sources describing Pakistani history as Ancient Indian are Indian 99% of the time, or written by an Indian. All American sources respect Pakistani heritage being kept by Pakistanis. And I can do something about it. I have provided the sources I was asked for, and I really wish people would hold true to their words. This article has to be renamed to South Asian history and a new article can be made for Ancient Indian history for history within Indian borders. I have Facts, and logic by my site, but you have mistaken identities on your side. Unre4L 02:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

To sum everything up.

Ancient Pakistan is a valid term (5 .edu sources provided), therefore Ancient Pakistani history cannot be included in the History of India page. It can be included in the History of South Asia page, which is why this article has to be renamed to South Asia, or all references of Ancient Pakistani history should be removed from Ancient Indian history page.

Ancient Indian history has to only include the history within Indian Borders. South Asian and Ancient Indian history is not the same thing, since India only came into existence as a single entity with a single Government in 1947. Prior to the British Raj, South Asia was never united. Unre4L 02:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Unre4L.I propose two things:

• Let there both be ancient Indian and ancient Pakistani history articles.You guys keep your history(ie The taj-mahal,your share of the indus)and let us keep ours.
• Let there be niether "ancient Indian" nor ancient Pakistani history articles but simply south asian.(Though I preffer Pakistan keep it's ancient history)

Regardless of wheather SA was united or not the fact remains that Pakistan has a claim over all the history of itself regardless of what the land was called back then. "India" was not officially used as a term nor was it ever understood(let alone ever heard of)by the people of SA until the British raj.

Ancient Rome is an excellent example.Since there was no country known as Italy back then,it(ancient Rome) should not be a part of French history just because there was no Italy back then.Ancient ROme belongs to italian history as the indus belongs to Pakistani history.

Bottom line is you stick to your history and we can stick to ours.I don't see why it has to be turned into a big issue.Why India is so desperate to claim Pakistani history I'll never know.I think Bakaman has got India's indipendance date mixed up with Pakistan's.Pakisatn's is 14th Augest and india's is 15th augest I hope that settles everything. Nadirali 03:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we go by google. I dont support giving undue weight to a fictional construct over a well-established and correct term. You can give me all the analogies you want but that wont change international consensus. India not used as a term, please? Xuanzang, Marco Polo, Ibn Battuta, Fa-Hien, Zheng He all visited India. What did they visit? South Asia? It only got turned into an issue because we Indians and non-Pakistanis are hijacking a fictional construct. O and btw, hamara bangali bhaiyon ko kyaa bolte? shunyaBakaman 04:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is getting too long, that too over a non-issue ! I guess, one thing is being forgotten ! "PAKISTAN" as a term was coined by Choudhary Rahmat Ali in 1933 [7]. Before that, there didn't exist a word by the name "Pakistan". And as proved by other editors above, the region was known as "India". So, using "Ancient Pakistan" would be revisionism and perversion of history, things which have no place in Wikipedia. Period. And yeah, Bottom Lines like "you stick to your history and we can stick to ours", eventually sink to the bottom only. --NRS | ^T/_M\^B 06:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again you prove you didnt read the discussion and you keep repeating the same thing as always. Pakistan was coined up in 1947, The Term India was coined up by the Brits, around 100 years before that!! Nobody called it India, they had their own words for the 100s of provinces in the subcontinent. Ancient India is not a well established and correct term. Its ridiculous the way you claim that India has so many meanings. And most of them are used by Indians only. I still have to meet non Indian historians who call the entire South Asian Subcontinent India. But I dont see what the problem is. I gave you sources PROVING that Ancient Pakistan is a valid and correct term. Are you just going to ignore that now? Looks like you are. Unre4L 14:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

And I gave you facts stating that Ancient Pakistan is used once for every 104 times India is used. Ahem, India was used by the ancient Persians, ancient Chinese, ancient Turks, etc.Bakaman 17:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It wasnt used to describe a country. And Like I said, Ancient Pakistan is a valid term, and must be used in order to clear confusion. Unre4L 18:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It must not be used because its a useless and incorrect term. There is no confusion since "ancient pakistan" is a fictional construct.Bakaman 04:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Unre4L said It wasnt used to describe a country. Exactly, you're absolutely right. When foreigners pre-1700 used the word India (Greeks, Chinese, Persians) they were describing the entire region. That is why History of India refers to the history of the entire region, not just one country. You then said Ancient Pakistan, (which isn't commonly used but occasionally used) must be used to clear confusion. Since it isn't commonly used (Not only Indians, but Americans, Europeans and other Western nations used the term Ancient India in their books because they are referring to the region not the country) the best way to avoid confusion is by calling the post-1947 conutry as Republic of India. China, Macedonia, Ireland are all about the regions, not the country. Some of us are proposing that India become as disambiguation page because India, just like China etc. can refer to the region. Gizza^{Chat ©} 05:20, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's stop discussing this. This is all too simple to understand had any effort been made. No one is saying that India was a single state except for small intermittent periods. But that India was a nation is not disputed by any scholar. That's all that is needed, because Ancient Greece, etc., all were in the same situation. India as an ancient nation is disputed only on hilarious grounds by Pakistan studies propaganda textbooks. Please note the difference between a state and a nation. I've tried to explain all this before, but apparently what we are seeing here is only an exercise in trolling. Let's not continue to feed trolls. deeptrivia (talk) 07:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Nation? India was never united, unless a subcontinent means a Nation, no India was never a nation pre British Raj. And No. India cannot refer to the region of the Indian subcontinent. Unlike China, the Indian subcontinent contains a lot of countries, and in order to clear confusion, wouldnt it make more sense to let people know which region you are talking about instead of naming everything India? If India became a disambiguation, then Everyone in South Asia will effectively be Indians (see a problem with this, considering the country India?). Not useful if you want to differentiate between 1.6 billion people. I am getting the impression you guys are not reading the argument, as you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, causing me to repeat my first post over and over again.

Understand this: India cannot have 2 meanings. The only valid meaning is the Country India. India (subcontinent) is no longer used, because in 1947 the meaning went from being a continent to a country. South Asia is the proper term to use. And now since we dont have terms to refer to the other places outside India in the subcontinent, its only logical to use already VALID terms (sources provided) e.g Ancient Pakistan. And the term India is less than a few hundred years old. The Persians, Chinese, Arabs, did not group everyone in South Asia together, and they didnt call anything India either. Thats the British Term. This article will get edited sooner or later, because NOBODY calls South Asia, India, apart from you guys.

p.s Please leave if you dont want to discuss, and let people who care about this article making sense, talk all they want. Unre4L 08:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Deep, I agree with you. I shouldn't feed the trolls. I'll make one last point. This article will not get edited sooner or later for your reasons, because A LOT OF PEOPLE call South Asia, India in a historical context, and NOBODY formally uses the term Ancient Pakistan apart from you guys. Wikipedia's policies (particularly WP:RS, WP:V & WP:NOR) will dictate what you can write here. Btw, User:Dbachmann a German speaking Swiss, and User:Taxman an American disagreed with you. I'll give you a challenge; find a non-Pakistani who agrees with you on Wikipedia and I'll give you a barnstar (just a joke), lol :-) Gizza^{Chat ©} 09:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

They disagreed with me on the pakhub article, and told me to find sources for Ancient Pakistan being a valid term. And I did. Unre4L 15:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Look, the very term Pakistan was coined in the 1930s, how can you split up Ancient India and Ancient Pakistan when someone would have looked at you ludicrously if you stood in the Western Punjab region in 500 BC and said you're standing in Pakistan instead of India (Hind/Bharat). If you told Bhagat Singh that he was Pakistani instead of Indian, he would've looked at you for a second and then turned away back to teaching religious unity. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 22:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I see. NobleEagle, you will be the nth person to not read the article before replying. If you stood in 500 BC Punjab and told them they were Indian, they would look wierdly at you aswell. Because there was no such thing as India. The term is British and hasnt been around for long either. India wasnt a country and nobody ever called thelseves Indian until the British Raj. In 500 BC, they would call each other Punjabi. Ancient Pakistan (sources provided) is just as valid as Ancient India, and the term has to be used for its meaning, especially since Ancient India is already causing a lot of confusion. Unre4L 00:00, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Except that PErsia and India already had an established trading network by then. Therefore he would be used to being called "Hindu" at the least but not "Pakistani". Note the parenthesis, he would say he is in Hind and a person standing in Tamil Nadu would say Bharatavarsham, both synonyms of India.Bakaman 00:14, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Persia and India didnt. Persian and the provinces within the Indian subcontinent did. India was never a country. They probably had names for the subcontinent, but these people werent united, so they didnt trade, fight, and live like one big country. Besides thats not what I am arguing. I provided sources for Ancient Pakistan being valid. Since both Pakistan and India emerged as countries in 1947, their histories only go within their own borders. India cant claim the history of Pakistani ancestors, same goes for Pakistanis not claiming Indian history, they dont. You will never see Pakistanis claiming to have built the Taj Mahal, even though they are people of the Indian subcontinent. Its amazing people here dont even care about sources being provided. Unre4L 01:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

So, nobody has got anything to argue? Well there is not much to argue about the incorrectness of calling Pakistani Ancestors Indian, when less than 4 generations of them were called Indian, and even then, it should be British Indian since Indian implies someone from RoI. Unre4L 22:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't mean nobody has got anything to argue, it means it's beginning to seem pointless arguing with you. So you are saying that History of India and History of Pakistan were of the same length, apart from the fact that Vedic traditions were founded in Ancient Pakistan as was a lot of Sikhism and all of Alexander's invasions etc etc. So Ancient Pakistan would perhaps even have a larger and more extensive history. But when I google Ancient India I get 932,000 hits, when I google Ancient Pakistan I get 8590 hits. You do the math, Ancient Pakistan gets 0.92% of what Ancient India gets. If everyone around the world, including notable historians, school textbooks etc. use Ancient India and not Ancient Pakistan, then who are we to change Wikipedia? For every source you get for Ancient Pakistan, we can find numerous ones for ancient India (which aren't blogs). Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 23:07, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Pointless to argue with me. Maybe because you have nothing to add to the argument but google results, which, as you can see, have been brought to my attention several times. I am not arguing that a lot of people use Ancient India, I am saying its wrong.

The very simple point made here is, the history belongs to the people. Not the name. India, a country which was born in 1947, takes the name of the subcontinent, and claims the history of people who were never known as Indians. How can you claim the history of Pakistani ancestors, when they were never called Indian, and their land is not even part of India. I know you dont want to argue with me simply because I am Pakistani, but does this sound logical to you? There is no reason to refer to any history according its continent. Where else do you see this being done? Unre4L 23:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

They were called inhabitants of Bharatvarsh, India in itself is used to describe Bharat. Bharat was the whole Indian subcontinent before Partition and India was Bharat. Anyway, please read Wikipedia:Original Research. By the way, if I didn't want to argue with you because you were Pakistani, what am I doing now? Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 23:42, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

You are right about Bharatvarsh, it was another word for the Indian subcontinent, but not a country. RoI is not the successor of Bharatvarsh. India and Pakistan both are equal successors of Bharatvarsh. So you are wrong in saying that India is Bharatvarsh. Indian subcontinent is Bharatvarsh, but currently, India is claiming the history of all of Bharatvarsh while clearly excluding Pakistan.

Unre4L 00:27, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Can you tell me what India's name is (other than Republic of India)? Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 02:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

I am talking about the country. It only has one name and thats India. Bharatvarsha once referred to the Indian subcontinent, but after partition, Indians have claimed that name for themselves, and use it to refer to ROI. (Without Pakistan). So how can you use the same name to refer to the history of Pakistan? Unre4L 03:05, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

You accepted that Bharatvarsh was used to describe the entire Indian subcontinent. Now the Republic of India's name is Bharat Ganrajya. Bharat = India, so for the remainder of this debate we can refer to India as Bharat. So the History of Bharat belongs to Bharat, does it not? Pakistan doesn't lay any claim to the name Bharat anyway. Today, Indians will say I am from Bharat, in 500 AD, Indians will say I am from Bharat. Today, Pakistanis will say I am from Pakistan, in 500 AD, people who lived in that region would say I am from Bharat. In any case, Pakistan can lay no claim whatsoever to the Hindu and Sikh histories of that region, because they were kicked out and slaughtered to create an Islamic state, no Hindu or Sikh who had to migrate from Pakistan to India would say they were born in Pakistan, they were born in India, which later became Pakistan. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 03:12, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

On Successor States: Unre4L, there are other avenues where creativity is better appreciated. Wikipedia is a serious place where creativity is hardly required. Please read about the Succession of states theory, and know what the official situation is. Let me refer you to [8]:

“ The partition of British India in 1947 was interpreted by the United Nations as a case of state secession. Independent India assumed the seat of British India at the United Nations. Despite protests by Pakistan that India and Pakistan were both new states and that the old state had ceased to exist, Pakistan had to apply for new state membership. ”

(Thomas RGC, Nations, States, and Secession: Lessons from the Former Yugoslavia, Mediterranean Quarterly, Volume 5 Number 4 Fall 1994, pp. 40-65, Duke University Press)

Seriously, Nobleeagle, do you see any point in carrying out this discussion? deeptrivia (talk) 06:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

No, there's not really. His points are easy enough to refute, but it doesn't matter since he's already made up his mind irrespective of the facts. He hasn't even attempted to show that his view is the predominant one among scholars, because of course, it's not. Further discussion would not be fruitfull unless a serious attempt at analyzing all neutral scholarly opinions was made. - Taxman ^Talk 13:29, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

If you dont want to talk then leave the page. Nobody is forcing you to discuss. Ok, if British India is the successor state, then that would make India...250 years old, despite the fact Pakistan was also part of British Raj. In any case how does this allow India to claim history which belonged to Pakistan prior to the British Raj? There definitely wasnt anything called India back then. The Indian subcontinent was scattered with dynasties, and none of them being united, you cant claim they were and group everything together. Unre4L 12:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Lets clear the air a bit. Even as an American and Midwesterner, I know that Pakistan and India have a contentious history, and a contentious situation today. Lets NOT, however, bring that to Wikipedia. If you can't work together with folks, then consider leaving yourself.

There are plenty of good people here, who have proven themselves to me to be honest and fair. Furthermore, they keep the articles, and Wikipedia itself in mind. I'm not saying that's everyone, but the "good" far outweigh the "disruptive". When you start treating people like the enemy, they start acting like it. Consider this. Nina Odell 13:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, you shouldnt lecture me without knowing the situation. I know for a fact that some of these guys are racists, and members of extremist forums like hinduunity. They have called out for attacks on my site, long before I even decided to know their names. And as an American, you should also know how Pakistan is being cut out from its own history. Its not hard to see. Unre4L 19:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, this is the last time I'm going to say this and then I'll leave the debate because you have done very little to convince everyone. The term "India" is an anglicized word. The term "Bharat", which is still the official name for India in modern times, is not such a word. Bharat Ganrajya is the successor state to Bharatvarsh, the history prior to British rule is the history of Bharat, the history of Bharat = history of India. Do you understand? No-one used India prior to Europeanisation, it was Bharat and it is still Bharat and it's in the Indian Constitution, Pakistan does not claim to be Bharat and is not the successor state of British India, Pakistan's history begins in the 1930s. By the way, you do know that the name India is derived from Indus? Scholars think that way so Wikipedia thinks that way. That's it from me. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 22:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

File:Bharatvarsha3.png

Some people regard Emperor Bharata to be the first and only emperor to rule all of India. Shown here is the approximate extent of his reign, Bharatvarsha.

And I am getting tired of saying the same thing again and again since you obviously dont understand. BHARAT...Was...Not...A...Country. It was the subcontinent, and it was NOT united, India was born in 1947, and cannot claim to be the successor state of anything, since you are missing the very people whose history you are claiming. People of South Asia, never called themselves Indians, Bhartians, or whatever you think India was prior to 1947. They called themselves, Sindhi, Baluchi, Gujarati, because that was their country. And last time I checked, Sindh and Baluchistan never belonged to India, so their history is not Indian either. Unre4L 22:24, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

And again, Pakistan can have no claim on the rich Hindu and Sikh histories of their region, because if Pakistan were formed during the period of those histories, the Hindus and Sikhs would have been slaughtered and there would have been no history. Nobleeagle ^[TALK] [C] 22:44, 4 January 2007 (UTC)