Talk:Janis Joplin

Archives of interest

Back in the day, a few of us tried to talk about her singing voice. Most of it archived here: [1]. Ortolan88 (talk) 20:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Joplin herself commented on her singing skills and style relative to more technically accomplished vocalists. In the movie "Janis" she compares herself to Aretha Franklin, who in her time was a highly accomplished technical singer in addition to being a pop success. Janis noted that she didn't have Aretha's skills at controlling pitch, and compensated for it with raw power and emotion. Anyone honest would admit that Janis was not a technically gifted singer. But to this day, whenever I listen to Ball and Chain I nearly break down and cry. What Janis lacked in technical skill she more than made up for with the power of her delivery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.250.34.161 (talk) 21:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Totally subjective. I cringe at Joplin daring to compare herself to someone like Aretha Franklin, who has considerable range, technical training -- and she can carry a tune. So, what you're saying is if you can't sing, just scream a little louder, and that compensates for the lack of talent? Uh, I don't think so. Joplin comparing herself to Aretha? What arrogance! deeceevoice (talk) 01:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

You can't really draw conclusions about arrogance unless you know the context in which a statement is made, and a paraphrased comment by an anonymous editor doesn't quite give you that. Meanwhile, for both above editors, this page is for discussing improvements to the article, not on the subject herself. Wildhartlivie (talk) 03:47, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh, really. In that case, with regard to relevance, in what light is your comment on my comment relevant? ;) And, hell, yeah. It was arrogance/preposterous presumption on Joplin's part. deeceevoice (talk) 05:29, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Aretha can sing opera. End of comparison. Ortolan88 (talk) 21:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

lol at Ortolan. ;) And gospel (speaking of emotion and power), and R&B/soul, blues and jazz, and.... (How have you been, Ortolan? We haven't crossed paths since the early days of Blackface before it was made a featured article and then screwed and de-featured.) Peace 2 you. deeceevoice (talk) 12:53, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Janis Joplin - Me and Bobby McGee.ogg

The image Image:Janis Joplin - Me and Bobby McGee.ogg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --07:24, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Bisexual

Some sources, including NNDB [2] (which names two women), state that she was bisexual. Her bisexuality should be stated on her page; she should be added to bisexual/LGBT categories. Werdnawerdna (talk) 22:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not following you around, Werdnawerdna, but apparently I do have multiple articles on my watchlist which interest you. As I noted on the Paul Newman talk page, NNDB is not considered a reliable source by Wikipedia standards and can't be used to base changes to articles. I've never heard Janis Ian mentioned in relationship to Joplin, anywhere before, and her relationship with Peggy Caserta has been frequently questioned regarding sexual vs. drug related. In any case, it's not enough to label her bisexual, and NNDB saying she was is not reliable. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the NNDb is a more reliable source that WikiPedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.132.76 (talk) 02:35, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Some clues, please read WP:RS, NNDb isn't considered a reliable source because it doesn't indicate where it gets its information. Some of it comes from Wikipedia. Another clue, Wikipedia doesn't get its information from NNDb. Wildhartlivie (talk) 04:11, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Mention on 30 Rock

heads up for vandalism. 30 rock tonight is about comedy writers vandalising the janis joplin wikipedia page.

This article was just mentioned (and vandalised) on tonight's episode of 30 Rock. I know we can't preemptively semi it, but some more eyes on it tonight would be a good idea. And an admin ready to semi it just in case... Random89 02:36, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't edit talk pages. 157.252.152.95 (talk) 02:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Um, what you reverted was me adding a not to the end of my own note, which I signed and time-stamped appropriately. Your edit was the one that was out of line, I'm not going to bother reverting you, but for the record, what I had said was that I collected all the 30 rock comments under one header. Random89 02:51, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

And more jokes to come... Pacific Coast Highway ^{{talk • contribs}} 02:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Has anybody given any thought how long the protection should last? There will be at least one rerun, which would probably flare up a recurrance. And then there's syndication.MMetro (talk) 01:15, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's already expired. WP doesn't usually protect in anticipation, so if the issue comes up again, it will be dealt with when the time comes. Wildhartlivie (talk) 01:58, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The general information says "30 Rock!" right now and needs to be fixed. -Katie

Janis said "the world is happy been hippie". Someone nows if Janis said´s this ?

Ezequiel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.16.211.219 (talk) 12:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

what?

Why does Coprophobia redirect to this page? lmao 71.223.76.224 (talk) 21:10, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

It shouldn't. Just vandalism that is now reverted. Thanks for pointing it out! Maedin\^talk 21:33, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}}

{{editsemiprotected}} The album title is Cheap Thrills, not "Cheaper Thrills" as mentioned in this article twice.

No, that is incorrect. There was an album entitled Cheap Thrills that came out in 1968, which was released well prior to Joplin's death on October 4, 1970. If you had read more closely, you'd have seen a recording was made of a summer 1966 concert Big Brother & the Holding Company gave soon after Joplin joined that was later released in 1984, 14 years after she died, that was called Cheaper Thrills. I would have thought the dates of release would have yielded a clue. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Alcohol

An important point not made in this entry is the battle Janis lost with alcohol. It is not unfair to say it wrecked her career. She joined the long list of American Artists wrecked by Booz.Johnwrd (talk) 03:55, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Her substance abuse is covered quite well in the article. Since it was heroin and not alcohol from which she died, it is unfair to say "booz" wrecked her career. Her career was going quite well except for that pesky little heroin death. Wildhartlivie (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

The article says she got really messed up on drugs in 1965, more than a year before she joined Big Brother. It says she left Big Brother and soon afer that she was shooting 200 dollars worth of heroin a day. It says she died from heroin "possibly combined with the effects of alcohol." That's enough for me.

The problem with citing stories of her drinking from books is that in many of them she seemed to have a good time drinking with others at bars. In one Joplin book, Mia Farrow is cited as having a positive experience at a restaurant with her just a few months before she died. In another story that's between hard covers, Joplin befriended an obscure hippie writer named Liza Williams in a San Francisco bar. They spent a while drawing freehand sketches and swapping them. Williams reproduced one in her book Up The City Of Angels. I'm not saying any of this should go in the article. On the contrary, it has enough about her substance abuse.

On the night she died she had drinks with her band members at Barney's Beanery. Drinking a certain amount is safe, but all use of narcotics is dangerous. For that reason the article should and does state that soon after Big Brother returned from Chicago to Northern California in 1966, they moved to a house in Lagunitas, and "It was there that Joplin relapsed into hard drugs." Anyone reading this knows those drugs were illegal and she evidently had an easy time getting them in that house. Alcohol is legal. So let's leave the article the way it is. 206.170.104.51 (talk) 22:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

I must strongly disagree with the dismissive way that 'Alcohol' is thought "irrelevant" in Janis Joplins life. I do not disrespect her memory, but her life was destroyed by Booz. Anyone who knows anything of American Culture and Americas' Writers, Actors and Artists knows 'The American' experience with Alcohol is a travesty. Is it not relevant to Janis Joplins history that she was so drunk on stage at times, the next day she no recollection of even being on stage?Johnwrd (talk) 04:19, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) Okay, first of all, the word is "booze", not Booz. Secondly, let's not get carried away with hyperbole and start lumping American writers, actors and articles and American pop culture and pop culture figures into one big vat and calling it "The American Experience" and pronouncing it hopelessly intertwined and dragged down by demon rum. That's a misperception and a gross generalization that is not factual or accurate. No one has dismissed or called any substance abuse trivial or irrelevant in Joplin's life. However, you are advocating two things here, neither of which are true.

1. Alcohol did not "destroy" her career. Her drinking did not destroy her career. Her career was destroyed solely because she died. The career was in full swing and progressing rather well at the point that she died. A new album was being finished, that's not indicative of a career in ruins. Her being drunk onstage and not remembering performances did not destroy her career. For that point in time, her substance use may even have increased her popularity in some ways. Howver, her career was destroyed because she died. Note that this doesn't mean it couldn't have become a factor in a career decline at some point in the future, but then, we'll never know that, will we? Her main addiction problem was with heroin, that is what killed her, alcohol may, or may not, have been a factor in that. It isn't even accurate to say that alcohol killed her, so you can't come in the back door and say it caused her death. It was the heroin that killed her, it was the heroin that cut short a career in its height. There are copies of her death certificate on various websites around the net, if you doubt the cause of death, go find them and see for yourself.

2. You are claiming that the article doesn't address her substance abuse or performing under the influence and that is wholly incorrect. It is covered throughout the article:

Section "Career", subsection "Early efforts":

Around this time her drug use increased, and she acquired a reputation as a "speed freak" and occasional heroin user.[8][4][7] She also used other intoxicants and was a heavy drinker throughout her career; her trademark beverage was Southern Comfort. In the spring of 1965, Joplin's friends, noticing the physical effects of her amphetamine habit (she was described as "skeletal"[7] and "emaciated"[4]), persuaded her to return to Port Arthur, Texas.

Section "Career", subsection "Big Brother and The Holding Company":

Shortly after the five band members drove from Chicago to Northern California with very little money, they moved with the Grateful Dead to a house in Lagunitas, California. It was there that Joplin relapsed into hard drugs.

Section "Career", subsection "Solo career":

By early 1969, Joplin was addicted to heroin, allegedly shooting at least $200 worth of heroin per day,[8] although efforts were made to keep her clean during the recording of I Got Dem Ol' Kozmic Blues Again Mama!. Gabriel Mekler, who produced the Kozmic Blues, told publicist-turned-biographer Myra Friedman after Joplin's death that the singer had lived in his house during the June 1969 recording sessions at his insistence so he could keep her away from drugs and her drug-using friends. By most accounts, Woodstock was not a happy affair for Joplin.[4][7][8] Faced with a ten hour wait after arriving at the festival, she shot heroin[7][8] and was drinking alcohol, so by the time she hit the stage, she was "three sheets to the wind."[4] Joplin also had problems at Madison Square Garden where, as she told rock journalist David Dalton, the audience watched and listened to "every note [she sang] with 'Is she gonna make it?' in their eyes."

Section "Career", subsection "Full Tilt Boogie Band":

In February 1970, Joplin traveled to Brazil, where she stopped her drug and alcohol use. ... Joplin began using heroin again when she returned to the United States. Her relationship with Niehaus soon ended because of the drugs, her relationship with Peggy Caserta and refusal to take some time off work and travel the world with him. ... By the time she began touring with Full Tilt Boogie, Joplin told people she was drug-free, but her drinking increased. ... her friend and designer, Linda Gravenites (whom Joplin had praised in the May 1968 issue of Vogue), cut ties with Joplin shortly after their return from Brazil, due largely to Joplin's continued use of heroin.

Section "Career", subsection "Death":

Upon entering her room, he found her dead on the floor. The official cause of death was an overdose of heroin, possibly combined with the effects of alcohol.

It is totally inaccurate to claim that her substance abuse, including alcohol, has been downplayed, glossed over or ignored in this article. Does it single out drink as the basis for her problems? No, it doesn't, but then one would be hard pressed to find sources that would attribute her issues to the demon rum without addressing the heroin use because that was the fact of it. Will the article be revised to imply that alcohol was her downfall? Not likely, nothing out there would support. So, please, tell us, just what would you have it say that doesn't reflect the truth without minimizing what it is that made Joplin notable? It covers substance abuse as it related to her life and her career, however, it doesn't list each and every time Joplin was wasted, that isn't necessary to make the points it already makes. Wildhartlivie (talk) 05:23, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

On that note, in case I did not make myself clear, you can't say anything positive about group situations in which Joplin injected drugs in front of others, sometimes sharing needles. (According to at least two books about her, just because she shot up alone on the night she died does not mean that was habitual. She shared stashes of heroin with fans and other strangers throughout 1968 and 1969.) The article makes it clear, with every citation of her drug use, that it was a negative, destructive thing. (You can imagine the positive things she could have done with 200 dollars a day.) Books say she was able to function intelligently while she was stoned and she even could sing and play a few instruments while stoned, but the fact that she was breaking the law is more important than that. As the article insinuates, she was paying 200 dollars a day to a criminal who got the contraband from other criminals. She could have been arrested for simple possession as was Jimi Hendrix in 1969.

It would be misleading, however, for the article to insinuate that every time she drank was negative and destructive. Books indicate she always behaved herself in bars and restaurants (unlike her violent contemporary Jim Morrison), and many of the group conversations were interesting and even informative. The David Dalton book Piece of My Heart, cited in our article, says that during her June 1970 concert tour, she drank at one hotel lounge (Louisville Kentucky?) with "an aspiring local black entertainer" and "a stewardess from Atlanta." Dalton himself seems to have drunk with her at every stop, tape recorder rolling, and this is how he captured her comment (cited in our article) that Madison Square Garden audiences "watched and listened to every note [she sang] with 'Is she gonna make it?' in their eyes."

Then you have the night she died. Everyone focuses on how diluted the heroin was or was not when she injected it at the Landmark Motor Hotel, but they forget that the alcohol found in her system by Dr. Thomas Noguchi was the result of a positive experience she had with two of her Full Tilt Boogie musicians at Barney's Beanery less than two hours before her death. Naturally, people later asked the musicians how she had behaved at that bar, and they agreed she had given no clue she was morbid or even troubled. Their recollections are in books.

Maybe her good behavior at bars had something to do with ... her being smart enough to know alcohol was perfectly legal? Or maybe alcohol didn't make her do the crazy things other alcoholics do. You can't lump her together with every single substance abusing rock musician. She subscribed to Time magazine and habitually carried the current issue in her handbag until she died. (The counterculture hated that magazine and didn't believe a word of it.) She hated Jann Wenner. She hated the hippies who burned 20 dollar bills in public. She had a strong work ethic and believed money was necessary to keep track of work, to keep track of the give and take in society. All this is documented in books about her. She said that give and take was very similar to the give and take in a romantic relationship and to the responsibility of her fans to dance during her concerts. She wanted audience members to do their part in the rock concert experience.

At any rate, "Johnwrd" is wrong about the article overlooking her drinking, and he misses the point that while some people who are cross-addicted to booze and drugs lose control on booze only, Janis Joplin was not like that. She not only controlled herself but became a good friend to many bar patrons, and we would be demeaning her memory if we insinuated otherwise. If she seemed drunk onstage, then why aren't you commenting on how it affected her singing? Did she ever just stand there on stage refusing to sing? No. She is quoted by David Dalton and Myra Friedman (another biographer) as saying she always sang whenever she was paid to do so, and she was telling the truth. A Joplin concert never was cancelled.

Take her away from the stage and she was a law abiding citizen at many bars in the company of people who did not use narcotics. She visited many a Holiday Inn lounge, and in that era pot smokers didn't go there. She drank with stewardesses and men who wore suits and ties. She drank with ballet dancers after they met backstage at The Ed Sullivan Show. (Source on that is, of all things, a Playboy profile of her in the August 1970 edition.)

Let's not suggest (in our article) she always drank with zonked out musicians who yelled, screamed, arm-wrestled and made people call the police. That is false. If the article were to suggest that was the case, it would demean her memory. Does a dead person's autopsy tell you everything there is to know about him/her? Joplin's autopsy gives us a blood alcohol level, but it doesn't take us backward in time to Barney's Beanery to see how she treated people when she drank on that final occasion or what the people were like. Does the way you treat others in public count for anything? Let's hope so. You don't have to drink to be mean. I have heard Raquel Welch is nasty to people without any drinking, but her Wikipedia article gives you no clue of that. (She appeared in public with Joplin twice, BTW.)

Dooyar/Debbiesvoucher/Nyannrunning/GSNViewer, please don't make me have to do a new sockpuppet investigation. Go quietly away without hoopla since you're permanently banned from Wikipedia. Wildhartlivie (talk) 21:16, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

This is a computer at the Los Angeles city library sytem where millions of people come every day. I'm not too familiar with Wikipedia but it seems like the discussion page is much more flexible than the article. I'm sorry if you find what I said offensive. Can you explain your use of "quietly?" I don't think anyone registers any decibel level here. Maybe I shouldn't have asked that and I should consider you to be not worth my time. Bye now.

Voice range

I have recently put a source stating her voice type was mezzo-soprano: [3] Tribal44 (talk) 22:29, 21 May 2009 (UTC)Tribal44