Talk:Joseph Smith/Archive 9

An event in this article is a January 12 selected anniversary

An interesting quote

:While I hold no particularly strong opinion one way or the other on polygamy, and wish "Jenny" all the best, I must confess that at the present time and for the foreseeable future, I do not have 2 wives.--Jimbo Wales 23:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

-from User talk:Jimbo Wales

---

Archives

This is an index of archived portions of the discussion at this page. Archives help keep pages fast, accessible, and more usable. Scroll down to see current discussion for this article.

• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 1 - includes sections "Unresolved questions", "Joseph Smith image", "Disputed edits", "Neutrality", and "Vandalism".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 2 - includes sections "Moroni's Visit", "Succession Crisis", "Succession Crisis", "Plural Marriage", "Importance of First Vision", "Using the words some and claimed", "Images", "Title", "POV edits", and "Propose we make a Mormonism WikiProject".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 3 - includes section "President Box".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 4 - includes sections "Quinn" and "Plural Marriage removal".
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 5 - includes sections about Danites, JS as feature article.
• Talk:Joseph Smith, Jr./Archive 6 - includes sections about "Smith's Death", "Featured Article", "Comments from 66.87.28.66", "Plural Marriage/DNA testing", "Brigham Young transfiguration legend.", "Interesting question", "Introductory paragraphs", "References and footnotes", "Family and Marriage(s)", "King Follett Discourse needs detail", "Infobox problems", "New Bushman biography", "Proposed new public domain image of Moroni and Joseph", "Newsweek Cover Story", "More info on the jailing / lynching", "About featured status", "New split-off article covering Smith's early history", "Company seeking their share", "Nominating Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. for peer review", and "Nominating Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr as a Featured Article Candidate". This is every section (since the last archive) that was created before December 2005.

Urim and Thummin

I'm confused by the seemingly multiple references to the Urim and Thummim. Section 1.1 seems to imply that they're "seer stones" from before he got the plates. Section 1.2 indicates that he received that they're a pair of spectacles he got from Moroni, and doesn't mention whether he got them before he got the plates or at the time that he got the plates. Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. says that they were stones he get from Moroni when he got the plates. -- Creidieki 19:35, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, that is confusing and I don't know much as far as the treasure-seeking goes, so I can't clarify. It's even unclear whether these are the same Urim and Thummim (see Urim and Thummim for plurality of Urim and Thummim ^_^). As I understand it, which is just stuff from Sunday School, a Urim and Thummim was included in the box the plates were found in. This needs to be addressed and clarified certainly, thank you for bringing it up. Cookiecaper 22:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Dradamh

I've left the following on Dradamh's talk page. He has not yet responded.

Welcome to Wikipedia. I reverted your edits on Josesph Smith, Jr. as most of the content you added in already exists at Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr., which was recently created as the current article was too long. Please drop by my talk page if you have any questions/concerns.

Also, if you have interest in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or the broader Latter Day Saint movement, or Mormonism, you may want to visit WP:LDS or List of articles about Mormonism. Hope to see you around and happy editing. -Visorstuff 22:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi again, before your edits are reverted by another editor or myself, please read what I've written above. The leg operation may be an important part of his life, however, it is included elsewhere. Also, your comment:

Editors trying to imply that Joseph Smith peddled "cakes and beer" at a young age are being deliberately antagonistic. They are misquoting a small portion of a book that is intense critical of Joseph Smith and of doubtful veracity

Not so. That was included by a active member of the LDS church. It is included in Bushman's latest biography. It is not anymore unusual in his timeperiod than my selling cherries and flowers on Memorial Day weekend in Utah as a child. Please re-read the article in its entirety and understand that this has been a well-reasearched article. Some of the terms you may not like, but it is structured in its way through much discussion on its talk page (which I also encourage you to read) and associated articles. -Visorstuff 23:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I suggest we revert again (aside from the number of children). As the additions are elsewhere, and irrelevant for this aritcle. They are no doubt very important, but they are in sub-articles and have been placed there for a reason. However, let's give him time to engage in discussion. -Visorstuff 23:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Visor, I am just now reading Bushman's biography of Joseph Smith and early on he only referred to it as a refreshment stand or cart; he did not say beer and cake stand. The "tone" of an article is important and the use of words easily leads one to either a positive or negative position. You know that I have resisted many of these comments being included because it simply does not directly add to the quality of the article, but rather leads to further questions and false iimpressions. In encyclopedic articles that is unnecessary. This is an editorial conflict rather than a conflict of facts primarily for me. Storm Rider 23:45, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Then I stand corrected. I could have sworn there is something about smith selling items to local farmers from his fathers shop. However, i've read so much on the topic in the last year, I can't keep my sources straight. I won't argue this one and am likely wrong, then. Thanks. -Visorstuff 00:25, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

The "cakes and beer" statement is taken out of context from a book that is deliberately hostile towards Joseph Smith. All quotes from that book must be carefully considered. Many statements are inconsistent with quotes of people whjo were more familiar with Joseph Smith and his life.

The Smith family were hard workers, intelligent people, but not highly educated. They apparently prayed as a family every morning and evening, enjoyed singing hymns, read the Bible together, and were very interested in religion. The boys enjoyed homemade sports such as playing ball, wrestling, and pulling sticks. One neighbor described Joseph as "a real clever, jovial boy"; another neighbor said that the Smiths were "the best family in the neighborhood in case of sickness," and said that Young Joe, as he called him, worked for him "and he was a good worker" (William H. and E. L. Kelley interviews, Saints' Herald [1881], 161–68, quoted in Richard L. Anderson, "A Corrected View of Joseph Smith's New York Reputation").

Here is Tucker's description of the Smith family, "they were popularly regarded as an illiterate, whisky-drinking, shiftless, irreligious race of people -- the first named, the chief subject of this biography, being unanimously voted the laziest and most worthless of the generation." He says this of a family that was decidedly against alcohol and widely known for religious natures. Can we really believe anything in his book? [By User:Dradamh, last edit 18:05 UTC, Dec 5, 2005 - Cookiecaper 00:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)]

Dradamh, you can sign your posts by typing four tildes after your message, like this: ~~~~. Also, I don't see the harm in changing "cake and beer" to something along the lines of "refreshment cart". Cookiecaper 00:15, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Agree about selling. I don't see this as an issue from an academic standpoint. Let's wait for COGDEN's thoughts as he was principal editor here.

My other issue is whether or not the operation should be included - particularly if we are looking for Featured article status for December 23. As it is in the other article some may find it superfluous. Thoughts? -Visorstuff 00:25, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Dradamh, WIKI is a place for scholarly articles about topics of interest. Religion is difficult given that they are topics of faith and often the topics of considerable debate. If an editor wishes to cite information printed in a book, it is acceptable on WIKI regardless of being "position". However, I agree that some books are reputable research and some are just plain tripe not worthy of being repeated. We must be careful that we are neutral as much as possible rather than producing articles that are skewed and overly positive. Storm Rider 00:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Controversy in the City Beautiful section

I feel like this can be shortened up quite a bit, if not removed entirely. The assassination attempt on Boggs is interesting but not really a major event in Smith's life and doesn't really add much to the article; maybe it's better placed at Porter Rockwell or somewhere else. Removal of the section would result in a file size of 44kb, a change of only two kilobytes. I don't want to make such a big removal without consulting the other editors, so please leave your thoughts. Cookiecaper 14:17, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I support this. I am in favor of making the article more concise and starting with events about other people's lives is a good start. Trödel|talk 22:06, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I would support, IF the information was put into another article, like 1840s (Mormonism), or Joseph Smith, Jr. in Nauvoo or something like that and referenced in the current article. The context of these issues in Nauvoo and how it led up to Smith's death, are so important in understanding why he was killed, that these things need to be included, IMHO. We can definitely cut down on the article, but lets not lose the context. -Visorstuff 22:20, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. I assumed (probably too quickly) the information would be put into a more appropriate article. Trödel|talk 22:28, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

I think the best idea would be to put it into a seperate article on 1831 through 1844 (see discussion below), because it doesn't fit very snugly into any of the suggested articles. --Trevdna 18:22, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Now that I have created the spinoff article, would there be any problems with getting rid of that section completely, now that it is in a new article? --Trevdna 16:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Mmkay... since no one has said anything for more than a week, I'll go ahead & take it out. --Trevdna 03:49, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Question about spinoff articles

I see that there are spinoff articles about Smith dealing with all the major events of his life except the period 1831 to 1844 (Kirtland, Nauvoo, plural marriage, etc.). Should there be a separate spinoff article for that period? It would make sense to me. Comments? --FeanorStar7 01:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Breaking off the spinoff articles is a relatively recent effort, primarily due to the length and complexity of this original article. When the LDS project group decided to shoot for a featured article for Smith's December birthday, we targeted his early history and began to create divisions for the spinoff articles (see discussion above) I anticipate that the 1831 to 1844 period will be next on the agenda. This period is complex and may actually end up as two articles, perhaps divided by the Missouri expulsion. Lots of history to cover. Thanks for your interest. WBardwin 06:04, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of creating that article, and I highly expect that it will end up as two articles in the end. So head on over to Life of Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1827 to 1831, and help make it better! --Trevdna 16:08, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Expanding 'Major Teachings' section

This section is painfully lacking - there could be an entire article on it (although most of these would be similar to or the same as a hypothetical Beliefs of Mormonism article). Please help me work on this one. --Trevdna 17:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Excuse me, but this article is about Joseph Smith, not a place to repeat all the content in the Mormonism article. I'm cutting this out, with the suggestion that you integrate some of your new material into the right article.

It's been brought up several times, including on the Featured Article nomination, that this section needed to be expanded. That edit was maybe too much and needed some changes, but that doesn't necessitate a complete revert. I'm putting it back. Cookiecaper 05:42, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I did the expansion piece and my thoughts were this: I've read a lot of Joseph Smith material in his own words, and I don't see that anywhere in Wikipedia. I thought that a brief summary of his doctrines here was appropriate. The Mormonism article seems to focus on behaviors of numerous sects and post-Joseph Smith doctrinal issues. I thought that this section could paint a more accurate picture of him in terms of understanding some of the basic concepts that he taught while he was alive. Bhludzin 05:52, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, how about breaking this stuff out into a sub-article, then? Alienus 06:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

We probably should do that with some of it, but the section needs more meat than it had or it needs to be done away with and replaced by a link to the sub-article in See Also. Cookiecaper 06:25, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Either one of those solutions sounds reasonable. Alienus 06:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

So we agree that we will add more information to this section before we do anything else with it? --Trevdna 18:15, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

PD/Free Images

There is an extensive collection of photographs and artwork prominently featuring Joseph Smith at the Church's website, josephsmith.net . I think you have to have Flash for this to work, but it's a very good resource. You guys should check it out. cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 03:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

"allowed to find" the plates

In the interest of NPOV this article should indicate neither belief nor scepticism with regard to the nature of Smith's visions. I feel that the multiple references to him being "allowed to find" the plates indicate a positive bias and that the reference should be changed to something along the lines of "claimed to have found". Euchrid 07:14, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

You are correct. The POV in this article is terrible. Rense 07:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Contribution by 65.40.141.222

I'm not sure if this contribution by him, found here, are correct, or not. Would someone please factcheck? Thank you. --Trevdna 15:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Come to think of it...

The "Plural marriage" section isn't well written at all, either. I'm going to take the entire thing out - if anyone wants to do anything to it, it can be found at the new article, which is not quite so visible. Also, it will not become the object of POV contributions (such as those from 69.242.151.90). --Trevdna 18:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Smith Jr. never taught plural marriage. In fact, the article should stress that fact, and possibly link to Brigham Young for a discussion of plural marriage and Mormonism. --Nerd42 23:17, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Joseph Smith Jr. Tells His Own Story

Joseph Smith Jr Tells His Own Story is the name of a pamphlet in which Smith describes his experience(s) he claimed to have. I think this pamphlet really helps clear up alot of misunderstandings about what Smith actually said, since he wrote it himself. (i.e. the pamplet doesn't claim to be a revelation itself, so saying Smith wrote it himself would not be POV in this case) Therefore, this pamphlet ought to be cited when dealing with questions as to Smith's actual views and claimed experiences. So, unless anyone can find documentation discrediting this source, I plan to use it on Wikipedia for this purpose. Any objections? Questions? Comments? Has anyone else brought this up before? --Nerd42 23:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Makes perfect sense to me.--The Scurvy Eye 00:08, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

He actually did not write a/the "pamphlet" - rather it was a serial in church publications - and the version you are using doesn't use original punctuation, has minor errors and inconsistencies, but that's fine (neither does the LDS version). Also, there is strong evidence that he oversaw and dictated portions of it, but that a large part of it was actually authored by others. However, as he approved the final copy, that is irrelevant, but you should be aware as some points will be disputed because of this. The content is basically the same as the LDS Church's Joseph Smith - History in the Pearl of Great Price. Most of it is already incorporated in the articles about Smith, but feel free to add relevant omissions/details where needed. Good luck! -Visorstuff 20:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute!!!!

Having a long history within the church it is readily apparent to me that the entire article is biased toward history as presented by the Church which has been heavily censored and changed. Reviewing the editing history, it appears any changes actively maintain the pro-Church bias a la FARMS and other Church publicity machines. It basically avoids any of the controversial and damning bits of history that discredit Smith and show the side of his character that the Church won't tell you about because that would, by the Church's own admission, call into question the veracity of the Church. To be a neutral article, it should demonstrate Smith's claims, detractor's claims and pertinent historical fact for both. As it is, most of the article states Smith's claims, or rather the Church's assertions about Smith, as if they were fact. The myriad of Church publications cited for the article should be indicative of the bias. I can only assume this article is being tended by Church interests at the expense of neutrality. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.125.118.151 (talk • contribs)

I appreciate your comments, but would disagree with your position. This article has had a great deal of negotiation from both sides. Regardless, if you see something you think belongs; add it or change it. Opinions are not tolerated too well on any article on WIKI, so if your edit is controversial a reference is appropriate.

You might also consider that articles of religion are initially presented from the perspetive of the religion being discussed. However, in the third paragraph it clearly states the opposition he met by other Cristians. In addition, the first vision presented is not the first vision the LDS church idenifies as the first vision. It clearly referes readers to the article on polygny. Further, the Missouri and Kirtland period is frank.

You represent yourself as someone who has a long history within the church. Are you indicating that you are still a LDS and that you are therefore an objective individaul making the comment? I may be wrong, but I smell a axe you wish to grind.

In closing, you are invited to join WIKI. When editing on the discussion page type four (Storm Rider 05:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)) and then others will be able to see who is making an edit. Storm Rider 01:40, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more that this article needs some neutralizing and I am personally looking at it. I am particularly bothered by the repeated reference to Mormons as the "Saints" - that in itself is a heavy POV assertion that Mormon belief is indisputable. NPOVing this article (and it's companion articles is going to be a huge job and it would be great if someone else could also assist with it. Also, there appear to be huge sections from the sub-articles cntained in this article...shouldn't this be a quick overall summary, keeping the in depth details to the sub articles? bcatt 01:43, 7 February 2006 (UTC) By the way...what Storm Rider meant was you could sign by typing four tildes (~), found at the upper left of a standard english keyboard, below the escape key.

BCATT, before you go editing an article please make sure you understand and have a deep understanding of the topic. Without knowledgable editors, edits create massive amounts of work for everyone who does have in-depth expertise in a given field. This article is the result of many editors from both sides.

As for Saints, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the largest of the churches that claim Joseph Smith as its founder. Saints is a common term for members of the any of the churches that evolved from the Latter Day Saint movement. The term comes from the New Testament and was used to refer to those who followed Christ. The term "Saint" as in St. Peter was a term later used by historical Christianity to describe a holy person (see Saint).

You might also want to check out LDS WikiProject. It represents a group of people on both sides of the issue that seek to write balanced articles. We hope you will join and seek to gain further balance in all of the articles related to the Latter Day Saint Movement. Storm Rider 05:55, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

ALSO, claiming something is NOPV without explaining your reasoning is unacceptable. None of your above comments explains your reasons or motivations except for Saint; unfortunately, that demonstrates a marked lack of understanding of the subject. I have reverted the NPOV until you have explained your reasonings. Storm Rider 06:03, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Use of the term "Saints" in reference to Mormons, is only in use by those who are religious, it is NOT a universally used term, and therefore, it's use in the article is misleading. Also, very little is mentioned about the more controversial topics related to Joseph Smith. I was not out of line in adding the NPOV notice, as I did state my biggest concern, and am now stating more of my concerns. The article is also very misleading as to JS's alleged "visions" speaking of them as though they are proven fact, whereas they are actually no more than a claim made by JS himself. Contrary to your statement directed to the unsigned user above, it is NOT customary for religious articles to be written from the point of view of the people who hold those beliefs...EVERY wikipedia article is supposed to be written in strict NPOV, discussing ALL supportive AND opposing views EQUALLY...wikipedia IS NOT a religious recruiting vehicle. There are many opposing views regarding mormonisn not expressed here, and therefore the article is heavily biased and I am going to restore the NPOV tag. I am not the only one who has noticed this bias, as you can see by the comment left above, by the user whom I responded to, and I suspect there are many more complaints of this buried in the archives...who knows, maybe even deleted. bcatt 06:36, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

While I tend to agree with Storm Rider on the "Saints" issue, it might be good to see if non-LDS scholars like Jan Schipps use the term in such away. I think a compromise would be to change the "Saints" to "Latter Day Saints", making it clearer that this is a part of a name, and not a reference to implied holiness. Also, note that stormrider opined that articles are "initially presented from the perspetive of the religion being discussed," not that they are entirely told from the religious POV. All significant POV's should be present, and the amount of attention given to each POV should be proportional to the prominence of that POV. With just a cursory glance (haven't had a chance to dig through the archives), I think that it might be that more should be mentioned of opposing views, but this is an article about Joseph Smith not Mormonism, so those opposing views should be presented w.r.t. him and not the movement. It would be helpful if we can narrow down more specifically where you and other editors are seeing NPOV. And it's a little early to be throwing out veiled accusations of conspiracies to cover-up dissent - please assume good faith. --FyzixFighter 07:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I must assume good faith, but this really does look like another witch hunt from the ignorant. Bcatt, please just make sure you know more than Anti-Mormon literature about Mormons. FyzixFighter above is also correct that the topic is limited to Joseph Smith and not Mormonism. You may want to investigate just how many articles there are about this subject prior to making accusations about coverups. If you have had a even a remote contact with any of the Mormon related articles you would realize that they are constantly being vandalized from ANON's; I have grown impatient with them.

You are encouraged to make this article as balanced as possible and we all look forward to your enlightened thoughts. It might be helpful to start out reading the NPOV article regarding religious articles; FyzixFighter did a good job of summarizing, but it would obviously bear fruit to review. Further, you are supposed to explicitly cite all of your issues as to why the article merits an NPOV label; that is still lacking. All you have done to make broad accusations. If you do not follow WIKI guidelines for NPOV labels, it will be reverted. To come in with limited knowledge, take the word of another obviously new editor and then spout off and start talking about dark, evil cabals that are somehow controlling the article is at best disingenuous. Also, if you have an axe to grind, please focus your efforts elsewhere. The current article has been through massive editing. If you are willing to be balanced, please edit. If not, save us all the work you will create by only reading the first Anti-Mormon literature available to you; those waters have been thoroughly chummed. Storm Rider 07:41, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

It obviously would help to explain the proper use of labeling an NPOV dispute:

How to initiate an NPOV debate?

If you come across an article whose content does not seem to be consistent with Wikipedia's NPOV policy, use one of the tags below to mark the article's main page. Then, on the article's talk page, make a new sectioned titled "NPOV dispute [- followed by a section's name if you're challenging just a particular section of the article and not the article as a whole]". Then, under this new section, clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why. Make some suggestions as to how one can improve the article. Be active and bold in improving the article.

Notice BCATT that you have not followed proper procedure; most importantly you have not clearly and exactly explained which part of the article does not see to meet NPOV policy and WHY. Broad accusations such as, "There are many opposing views regarding mormonisn not expressed here, and therefore the article is heavily biased and I am going to restore the NPOV tag." You have said nothing, but made an accusation. If you do not follow policy I will delete the label tomorrow evening. Storm Rider 07:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

An article should initially describe the point of view that the article is about, but it should never be written from the point of view that the article is about. For example, if I were writing an article regarding the belief in fruit as a wholesome food (we'll call it "Fruitism"), I could write: "Fruitists believe that fruit is a wholesome food, and prefer to eat as much fruit as possible. There are many people who do not consider fruit to be as important as the Fruitists claim it is. There are other people, the Disfruitists, who specifically decry the healthiness of fruit; while yet another group, while having no actual opinion on Fruitism itself, claim that the disfruitists are just being finicky - this last group is known as Antidisfruitists." But I would be out of line in writing: "Fruitists believe that fruit is a wholesome food. Fruit should be eaten as much as possible. Some people disagree."

Thus, phrases such as:

1. Smith was not allowed to receive the plates until 1827. (because the angel told him so)
2. Four years had passed since Moroni, the angel that had told Smith about the plates, first appeared, with periodic visits occurring in the interim. Finally, in September 1827, Moroni allowed Smith to take the gold plates, but had strictly forbidden him from showing them to any person without authorization.
3. Soon after Smith recieved the Golden Plates, his focus turned to getting the engravings on them translated.
4. Smith began transcribing characters engraved on the plates
5. Smith returned to Harmony and dictated to Emma his first written revelation, which rebuked him for losing the manuscript pages, but assured Smith that all was not lost, because if Smith repented of what he had done, God would "only cause thee to be afflicted for a season, and thou art still chosen, and wilt again be called to the work"
6. Smith's translation was sporadic.
7. the work he was dictating from the Golden Plates was a revolutionary and "marvelous work" of religion
8. Cowdery, like Smith, had the "gift" of translating ancient documents, as well as the "gift" of working with the "rod of nature", which would allow him to discern God's will much as Smith had been doing by looking through his seer stones and Urim and Thummim.
9. Cowdery acted as Smith's scribe for the majority of Smith's dictation
10. They baptized each other immediately thereafter, exercising their new authority.
11. Peter, James, and John also came to them during either May or June 1829 and ordained them to the Melchizedek Priesthood.
12. When translation was complete, Smith published his dictated work

are hugely inappropriate, as they all assume Joseph Smith's word to be the gospel truth (pun intended). That is just from the first two subsections of the biography section, nevermind the rest of the article and the companion articles. Followers of Joseph Smith should be referred to in clearly neutral terms, and "Saints" is not a clearly neutral term. I have not yet found any discussion in any of the articles regarding JS's charges of fraud/mischeif prior to establishing the religion either...I think this is a very pertinent subject. bcatt 08:22, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Notice STORM RIDER that you are trying to WP:OWN this article, and you are not giving a very good impression of interest in NPOV by nit picking silly things, with an obvious intention of attempting to demean me. Kindly note and accept that (from: NPOV)

• NPOV (Neutral Point Of View) is a fundamental Wikipedia principle which states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias...NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable".
• The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these are fairly presented, but not asserted.
• It is a point of view that is neutral - that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject.
• NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints, in proportion to the prominence of each.
• One is said to be biased if one is influenced by one's biases. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or not-accept the truth of a claim, not because of the strength of the claim itself, but because it does or does not correspond to one's own preconceived ideas.
• assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves.
• But it's not enough, to express the Wikipedia non-bias policy, just to say that we should state facts and not opinions. When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct. It's also generally important to give the facts about the reasons behind the views, and to make it clear who holds them. It's often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.
• an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.
• Many adherents of a religion will object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith, claiming that this somehow discriminates against their religious beliefs. They would prefer that the articles describe their faith as they see it, which is often from a non-historical perspective (e.g. the way things are is the way things have always been; any differences are from heretical sects that don't represent the real religion.) Their point of view must be mentioned, yet note that there is no contradiction. NPOV policy means that we say something like this: Many adherents of this faith believe X, which they believe that members of this group have always believed; however, due to the acceptance of some findings (say which) by modern historians and archaeologists (say which), other adherents (say which) of this faith now believe Z.

bcatt 08:47, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Thank you bcatt for that list. Granted, like everyone I come at this from a personal POV, but let me see if I can sum up my views on a few of these as I try to understand where you are coming from:

1-4 There are similar statements around these that do state that the information is based on JS's claims, but I do see where you're coming from. To fix these we would need to somehow state that these are claims without destroying the flow of the article.

5 The only word that I'm guessing you say is NPOV is "revelation" since JS did dictate something to Emma containing that rebuke and way to repent.

6 Quick fix is to change it "translation" to "dictation"

7 You've taken this statement out of context. The sentence is already qualified as a claim by saying that "Joseph Smith believed the work..."

8 Similar to the first few, the intended qualifying statements are in the previous sentences. One could change it to read:

According to Smith, Cowdery had the "gift" of translating ancient documents, as well as the "gift" of working with the "rod of nature", which would allow him to discern God's will much as Smith had been doing by looking through his seer stones and Urim and Thummim.

9 I don't see the NPOV. The sentence makes no claim as to the nature of what is being dictated. I don't see how this isn't a fact.

10-11 Again like the first few - qualify them but do it without destroying the flow.

12 Change to "When the dictation was complete, Smith published his work..."

Information regarding JS's charges of fraud/mischeif prior to establishing the religion is contained in Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr.. I still disagree with you on the use of "Saints." Would you have a problem with the compromise of using "Latter Day Saints"? We really should see how it's handled in scholarly articles to see what the established style is. Also, not all the sources are from the church - a good number are, indicating that it might be a good idea to find other sources to not give an implied POV. But that fact alone does not disqualify the sources altogether. --FyzixFighter 14:35, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I see this article and it's forks as presenting much information that is rumor and induendo. To be called biased towards CJC is just unreasonable. It presents information which follows NPOV, it uses sympathetic language to describe the positions of JS detractors etc. It may need improvement but if you think there isn't a critical historical treatment of JS's life you need to read more of the links. This article can not cover every detail but needs to focus on an overview of JS life in order to stay encyclopedic i.e. a well written succinct article. Trödel•talk 12:15, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Did you even bother to read the sample excerpts I provided where JS claims are stated as facts...these are things which are completely unproveable and need to be reworded accordingly. Therefore, it presents a POV, which is against wikipedia policy, and therefore, the npov tag is most certainly supported. bcatt 12:23, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Uh, yes.... the extensive use of claimed already presents the POV that JS is full of crap. E.g. in the not being able to take the plates comment - The introduction is pretty good, paraphrasing "Starting in 1823, JS described being visited by another heavenly messenger." However, the use of claims in the next sentence presents the POV that his description is the fantasy of a teenager. Once the presentation of material describes it's source, that is enough to alert the reader the source, and then we should present the information. Period.

You are perfectly welcome to come up with different wording than claim lots of other articles use that word, and lots of other aricles come up with alternatives. Using "claimed" and alternatives is NOT a POV, it is an adherance to NPOV policy:

• assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves.
• When asserting a fact about an opinion, it is important also to assert facts about competing opinions, and to do so without implying that any one of the opinions is correct.

The above mentioned statements ARE NOT FACT, they are OPINIONS about facts. Period. Therefore, stating them as fact is asserting a POV, which is not allowed. Is that what you meant on my talk page about the POV going both ways? It cannot be helped that Smiths claims cannot be proven...that is simply the way it is. It is not acceptable to distort and blur the lines between what is actual fact and what is claimed or believed by somebody. Claims is NOT POV...I can't stress this enough! Claims is a fact...this is what JS claimed. Nobody has put anything in the article about it being schoolboy fantasy (not that they'd be able to even if THAT were proven beyond a doubt), if that is how it appears when facts are stated honestly, well, maybe you need to retink your views...again, that's not my fault or wikipedias fault or whoever's fault. Please read: Wikipedia:Information suppression. Non mormon views of JS are not being properly represented, and there isn't a single - NOT ONE!!!! - non-church reference cited. bcatt 13:49, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Fyzix, you have no idea how happy I am that somebody finally took the time to actually read the effort I put into supporting my position (instead of just brushing it off because it doesn't fit their narrow POV)...THANK YOU!

• 1-4. Yes, the problem I find with these is that it states them as fact, as though these "plates" automatically really existed just because JS claimed they did. It needs to be made clear that these are things he claimed, not things which are indisputable facts, while, as you say, keeping the article flowing along nicely. I think the early life article (though I haven't finished reading the whole thing yet) does a way better job at keeping it NPOV, though also needs some touch-ups...but that's another topic for another talk page.
• 5. Yes, I should have left off the first part. That he dictated is not disputed, that he had a revelation in the first place is not a proven fact, and all that follows in the rest of the sentence needs to be made clear that the only first hand source for this is JS himself.
• 6. Yes, dictation would work fine
• 7. No, that's why I left off the belief part, I have no dispute that Smith believed that, he says he believed it and you can't dispute that, can you? Who is to say what he did and did not believe (so long as they don't say one thing and do another...but I think that goes without saying) this sentence proceeds as though the existence of the plates in the first place is fact, when it is not. Not a single soul in the entire history of the world has ever seen those plates, so their existence is POV, and it needs to be made clear that these are "alleged" - or whatever word is preferable - plates.
• 8. That's getting there, but not quite...it does point out that it was Smith's opinion, but still asserts that God's will can be discerned by these methods, and that Smith successfully communicated with God via these methods, when it is actually an unsubstantiated claim.
• 9. I think you are right on that one, it was probably a brain fart...misinterpreting dictation as translation.
• 10...etc...I agree with all those suggestions

I have absolutely no problem with "Latter day saints" "LDS" "Smith's followers"...ANYTHING that is not a term which misleads any non-mormon (such as with just plain "Saints"). Whether it is used by non-mormon church scholars or not (even if it is used by non-church scholars), it is a clearly deliberate tool to amplify the importance of the LDS church, and something that indefinitely points out who is being referred to is most certainly at need here. It is the EXACT same practice that would also be used in any non-religious article, for purposes of clarity. I did not say that the lack of NPOV sources discredited the current sources, just that it is clearly stated in policy that sources should be balanced according to relevance; and I think that since the article is about Smith, but there are FAR more people in the world that DON'T believe in Smith's word, than there are mormons, both should get an equal balance, especially since NONE of Smith's religious claims can actually be proven. I didn't however notice any non-church references...do you mind showing me which one(s)?

Bcatt, just a few follow up comments based on your responses:

• 5 I'm not sure how we're going to qualify the word revelation. Maybe quotation marks around revelation, but some might see those as scare quotes. Let's play with it awhile and see what comes up. The following clause could use a bit of a touch-up to make sure that the reader understands that the clause is describing what is contained in that dictation. A reference to where it the dictation is recorded in the D&C would also help I think.
• 7 Ah, I see now what you're saying. Quick fix: how about taking out the phrase "from the Golden Plates"? Or using a quote from something JS said or wrote to give more evidence to the fact that he probably believed this. Granted based on my religious beliefs I disagree that no one ever saw the plates. There is the accounts of the Three witnesses and the Eight witnesses, as well as accounts by emma and JS's family. Certainly there are criticisms of all these, but to say that no one saw them is an opinion biased by what kind of evidence you accept.
• 8 I see better now what you're saying. Perhaps a phrase like "...much as Smith claimed to have been doing..."

I think one of the arguments for too many "claimed"'s and "supposed"'s was that too many of these would give the impression that while these people claimed these things, they were really a bunch of proven liars and morons. But IMHO this can be avoided by word choice and maintaining good flow. I don't have time at the moment (got to get to school and work) to make any changes, maybe when I get back and after some more discussion from other editors. I also am probably not the best person to go through the references and say which aren't from the LDS church (I wasn't here when it was hashed out). There are few from the RLDS, and 10 and 28 I don't believe are from the church, 10 is actually from the POV that the JS was a fraud. I don't think you can throw out all the Signature book references, since some of those are collections of records so you'd have to see which records they include.

Do any of the other editors have a problem with changing "Saints" to "Latter Day Saints"? Honestly I don't completely understand Bcatt's objections, but this seems like a reasonable compromise and bcatt (the current voicer of this concern) has agreed to it. Anyways, got to run - Tchau ya'll. --FyzixFighter 16:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

In pretty much every Latter Day Saint denomination I've heard of, members are called "saints". Having a capital "S" probably wouldn't be NPOV, but using the term "saints" is NPOV because that's simply what church members are called. Furthermore, saints have been known to misbehave from the beginning, so though using the term may look weird to a catholic, saying someone is a saint in a Latter Day Saint sense does not imply that they are different from anybody else or that their ideas are more correct. --Nerd42 17:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

• 5. Yeah, I think quotes might be pushing things over the other way...best to think of another way to represent it.
• 7. Using quotes from JS himself is a likely remedy to many of these problems, I can't see anyone being able to argue with the use of "Joseph Smith said" or, "wrote" or "According to Smith" or any similar form of attribution.
• 8. That sounds fine to me, or any similar wording if there is a dispute regarding the use of the word "claimed"

OK, see the one now that you pointed out (#10)...that tiny print kills the eyes! There are no external links to neutral or opposing views, which should be looked at as well. As I pointed out before, I never suggested throwing out any of the current references, just rounding it out to a more balanced representation of publications from both extremes as well as neutrals.

My objection to use of "Saints" is that the majority of non-mormon people read Saint as it is meant in regard to catholicism. If you refer to someone as saintly, you are making a POV value judgement, and when the average reader reads "Saints", they read it in this way - not as a reference to Latter Day Saints. This use, therefore, skews the POV of the article by representing mormons as "saintly" or beyond reproach. Whereas Latter Day Saints clearly identifies the group being referred to. In short "saint" is an ambiguous term, whereas "Latter Day Saints" is a specific term.

Probably most importantly, this article needs to be appropriately tagged to show that NPOV issues are on the table and have not yet been resolved. bcatt 17:13, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia's purpose (aside from being editable by anyone) is to present a NPOV to the average reader, and I hate to break it to you folks, but mormons are NOT the average reader. The average reader is NOT going to come to "Saints" and go "oh, it's capitalized, it must mean something different than saints"...another thing that'll probably be hard for y'all to take is that Catholicism has been around a LOT longer and this use of "saint" is WAY more ingrained in humanity's head than the mormon reference to themselves as saints. bcatt 17:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Given that the title of the article is Joseph Smith, Jr., the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, we could intially define the term Saint so that readers know exactly what is being defined. Do you think then that readers will understand the term's usage? I understand that personally you have an issue with term and if you do, there will certainly be others that also have a problem. The problem with using the term member and other similar terms is that it is too ambiguous for this article. Joseph Smith founded a movement that has splintered. To state member might lead people to attribute all members to a specific church and that would be an error. Though there are many smaller groups, most significantly smaller than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, they possess a separate identity that should be respected. Storm Rider 17:28, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the Saint controversy is a non-issue. The terms Saint and Latter Day Saint are different terms with different connotations. If someone wants to know how the term Latter Day Saint is different than the term Saint, the answer is one click away. Requiring LDS articles to disclaim the use of the word saint would be like requiring Catholic articles to disclaim the term catholic: after all, some people don't agree that the Catholic Church is really catholic in the uncapitalized sense. COGDEN 18:39, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Since it is a non-issue for us, then it really is no skin off our backs to make a change. I've just gone through and tried to grab all the instances of Saints, turning them into Latter Day Saints. The article had used the two terms synonymously (7 uses and 4 uses of each term respectively) so I hope no one gets too riled up about it. While we could define the term at the start, it's just as easy (and better in the world of technical writing) to pick one and stick with it throughout the entire article. I've also tried to address issues 5, 6, 7, 8, 11 and 12 (though a quote for 7 would be nice) raised above with small, simple adjustments that hopefully aren't too awkward. --FyzixFighter 22:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Good work FyzixFighter; you are the epitome of diplomacy. Hopefully we are well on our way to meeting the demands of our two newest editors. Sometimes I get the impression from new editors that anything that is remotely positive about Joseph Smith should be expunged. I overreact to what may be may appropriate concern, but that remains to be seen. Let's see where this goes from here. Storm Rider 23:19, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Storm for the compliment - it's a necessity when living in Boulder ;). I've tried to further address issues 1-3 (building on Storm Rider's initiative), 10 and a few others further down. I hope that the corrections for 3 haven't taken it too far the other way, and I'm not sure I like my wording in the priesthood section (issue 10). Honestly I wanted to make the sentence simply say they baptized each other, but I was trying to be true to what I thought the first editor was trying to convey. Good luck on addressing issue 4 - I can't come up with anything at the moment. As for rounding out the references list, could some of you editors who have been around point me to the relevant discussions in the archives concerning this list. Some books that I think could round out the list are "JS: rough stone rolling" by Bushman (also mentioned at the top of the talk page), "Joseph Smith" by Remini, and maybe something from Jan Shipps. --FyzixFighter 00:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Storm Rider, I know you are really dead set on continuing to refer to mormons as saints, but you contradict yourself in saying first that since the article is about JS, it defines the meaning, and then saying that "members" and "Latter Day Saints" is too ambiguous. Especially when you are trying to use an ambiguous and misleading term to refer to the members of the LDS movement. I don't see how the terms I've suggested are not blanket terms that can refer to members of all LDS churches. I really don't care what term is used as long is it is not the misleading use of "saint". Cogden...how on earth is the term catholic not the same as Catholic? This really makes no sense. Plus, when one looks up saint on wikipedia, it takes them to the article regarding the traditional use of the term (which by the way capitalizes it to Saint), which is why it is ambiguous. If looking up saint took you to an article defining as Sant as a reference to a member of the LDS movement, I would have no issue with it, but that simply is not the case. I never said LDS members should stop referring to themselves as saints, go right ahead...but don't use it in the article because the article is not here to serve LDS members exclusively. Saying that not using saint to refer to LDSers in this article is the same as not using catholic to refer to the catholic church is ludicrous...what other use is there for catholic? When you look up catholic on google, you get exclusively catholic results (surprise!), when you look up saint on google, you also get mostly catholic results (with a few cities, movies, colleges, catholic churches, acronyms, etc mixed in - and NO LDS results on at least the first 4 pages)...use of "Saint" is simply not acceptable in making this an NPOV article. Fyzix makes the point in regard that clearer, non-ambiguous terms are better choices in regards to the techncal world.

It is not positivity towards Smith that is a problem, it is the hiding of important truths and the attempts to represent opinions as facts that presents a problem and prevents the article from being NPOV. bcatt 01:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Fyzix, this is looking WAY better! bcatt 01:31, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

This isn't part of the NPOV concerns, but every time I look at the article, the double use of the same picture bothers me...I'm sure there is another image of Smith that can be used in one of these two spots...why not change one of them? bcatt 01:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what the entire diatribe was regarding the term Saint; it was already changed in the article. Maybe you missed it? Let's move on.

You might want to begin editing the article yourself since you think so much is being hidden. We all have gotten the idea that you like to gripe, but now it is time to get off your self-righteous high horse and do some of the lifting. Exactly what is hidden; add it to the article and move on. And yes, I am just a little impatient with people who whine incessantly on the Talk page and do nothing to ameliorate the situation. Storm Rider 08:23, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

• shakes head* Somebody needs a big, fat reality check. bcatt 09:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay bcatt, please explain. You have made three edits on the article page: 2 were to place the NPOV label and one was incorrect. The definition of Polygyny is:

In social anthropology, polygyny is a marital practice in which a man has more than one wife simultaneously. This is the most common form of polygamy. The man may marry more than one woman at the same time, or marry one or more other women while he is already married. The opposite form—where a woman has more than one husband simultaneously—is known as polyandry. See marriage for a discussion on the extent to which states can and do recognise these forms as valid.

Your edit exlanation read: "plural marriage is polygamy, polygyny does not necessarily include marriage). Could you please explain why your edit makes sense and why the original was incorrect. You have done nothing to make the article meet your "expectations", but rather you sit back and say what is wrong. THAT IS A REALITY CHECK, BIG AND FAT! Storm Rider 21:59, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

hmmm...I'm whining? poly=many, gynos=woman, gamos=marriage - simple etymology - one can be with many women without actually marrying them. Thus, the fundamental difference between polygyny and polygamy. In regard to your previous comment, I responded (in regard to the use of the term "saint") to YOUR incessant whining that use of such an ambiguous term should be acceptable even though it is clearly mislading...you are only upset that I am capable of providing backup to what I say, whereas you can do nothing but spout your own personal POV without any outside support from an IMPARTIAL source. And, in fact, I do NOT sit back...if you actually took the time to investigate your outrageous claims, you would see that I have done an incredible amount of VALUABLE work on wikipedia, which I don't see that you can say for yourself. As for self-righteousness, I have stated only facts about the problems with the article and supported those statements with impartial sources, whereas you have sat back and "lorded" over this article, arbitrarily deciding what can and cannot be done to it (WP:OWN), while doing nothing but deliberately causing problems in order to try to deter people from making HEALTHY and BALANCED contributions to the article. I have put in a lot of work to the article just by going through it and pointing out some areas that need attention. This is a common and accepted practice on wikipedia, whereas your trolling is not. I am not required to do the proofreading, commenting AND editing myself. I choose to put the majority of my time on wikipedia into articles of more global importance, while also making some time to assist, as I have done here, in identifying areas that need work in other articles that I do not regularly edit. A perfectly acceptable practice. Hypocrisy gets you nowhere. bcatt 05:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

bcatt, please remember Wikipedia's policies on civility and personal attacks.

Also, most of these issues have been hashed out before. The use of Saints is not generally considered misleading and claimed, purported, and similar words can only be used so many times. cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 06:58, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

<We interrupt your regularly scheduled exchange of accusations to bring the following rant:>

Can we drop the Saints issue *says FyzixFighter totally realizing the hypocrisy of this post*. The bulk of these last few posts has all precipitated from a slight misunderstanding of Storm's 17:28 7-Feb post. Storm was not advocating that the term is inherently defined by the nature of the article but was suggesting if we could define the term Saints w.r.t. LDS usage at the beginning much as technical acronyms are defined at the beginning of science papers. Storm also was only against the use of the term "member" as being ambiguous. Storm was never against using Latter Day Saint but in fact seemed to approve of it when I made those changing. So everyone stop the pissing contest, take the personal accusations and name calling to your talk pages, and let's get back to constructively critiquing the article. Sorry if some people think this rant is uncalled for but I much prefer resolving misunderstandings than watching them escalate into something ugly.

<We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion>

As I think about issue 3 (beginning of 2nd paragraph under 1827-1831), I really don't want to say again something along the lines of "according to smith's record" because then it begins to sound like JS was the only one telling these stories. Someone else, like emma or martin or the family must have made an account of this. I'd much rather say something like "JS's family and martin harris recount that..." to even out the POV - martin harris would be ideal since he is one of the three witnesses who also claims to have seen the plates and delivered the anthon script. Can anyone help with identifying who we could use?

To the polygamy/polygyny debate: what is the standard for resolving disagreements on word meanings? I think this is a case of does etymology trump Webster's (or whatever dictionary Storm cited) or vice versa. --FyzixFighter 07:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Storm rider's behaviour in regard to this dispute is horrendous, storm rider is intentionally inflammatory (otherwise known as trolling). And when storm rider finally succeeds in pissing off another user, other Morons are brought in to reprimand. You DO NOT own this article. It is NOT up to you what edits stay or don't. In addition to what is happening here, I have been harrased, vandalized, and trolled on my talk page by both storm rider and trodel. You quote wiki policy but REFUSE to follow it yourself. Mormons need to stop having such a strong presence in this article until there is a larger non-mormon presence built up. This inequality is why the article is biased. I am bringing in outside help, since the mormons have built a near impenetrable wall around this article, which EXPRESSLY VIOLATES WIKIPEDIA POLICY. SHAME ON YOU! bcatt 07:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

What specific changes do you suggest to balance this article? Alienus 07:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The first thing that needs to happen is that there needs to be a ban (from this article only) of any number of pro-LDSers that is greater than the number neutrals and anti-LDSers, and the LDSers need to be regulated as to their OWNing behaviour of the article and their attacks on anyone who attempts to inject neutrality into it. I am seriously at the end of my rope with this and will do whatever it takes to see that the mormon wikipedia presence stops lording over this article. bcatt 07:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Note: what I mean is that if there are, say, 5 neutrals and 2 anti's, there can be no more than 5 mormons (not 7).

My comment violated no policy, and us not yielding to your specific requests does not mean we own the article, it means your requests suck. We have a number of non-LDS contributors to this articles and WP:LDS as a whole. Your suggestions are welcome, but the fact that they haven't been implemented instantly and precisely to your specifications does not constitute a violation of Wikipedia policy. Banning users from editing based solely upon religious affiliation is a wholly ridiculous proposition, especially when so few consider this article non-neutral. cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 13:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I think I've made a satisfactory qualifier for issue #3 (the original list is way up near the top of this section). I hope it's a sufficient compromise for all editors. I also took the liberty to add a comment about the others who also claim to have seen the plates to provide balance to all the "JS claimed/purported/described"'s.

@Bcatt and other editors with neutrality concerns - Besides the categorization and limiting of editors, what additional specific changes/suggestions do you have to balance this article? --FyzixFighter 09:58, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Here's one. Trodel needs to stop changing my edit specifically because it's mine...especially needs to stop using faulty "reasoning", such as "polygamy equally can mean non marital polygamous relationships"...ummm, that exactly the same as saying "multiple marriage equally can mean non marital multiple marriage relationships"....WHAT? And storm rider is screaming that I am unknowledgable?????????? Why don't you get on trodels case, storm rider, as he clearly hasn't a clue what he is talking about. Plus, added into his and your previous behaviour, it is clear that this is a personal attack - he is specifically changing MY edits simply because they are done by me. Still going to claim that you aren't trying to censor people? bcatt 14:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

"DO NOT CHANGE MY EDITS WITHOUT PROVIDING THE SAME AMOUNT OF EFFORT ON THE TALK PAGE AS I WAS EXPECTED TO DO. THIS IS VANDALISM DIRECTED SPECIFICALLY TOWARD ME", and you say we're trying to own the article? Also, Trodel is knowledgable. Polygyny specifically refers to a male having more than one wife; polygamy is ambigious and could include polyandry, which was not permitted within the Latter-day Saint practice of plural marriage. cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 14:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

No, this is not owning the article, this is expecting the same treatment as other editors. Trodel is specifically changing it because it is an edit I made. As I have pointed out already, polygyny does not necessarily mean marriage, as one can have multiple sexual partners without marrying them. If trodel is so knowledgeable, why would he say something like: "multiple marriage equally can mean non marital multiple marriage relationships"? bcatt 14:24, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't know, and I haven't slept in a lot of hours so I'm not even going to try to extract any meaning from it. Trodel has proved himself sufficiently to be considered knowledgable in my book. I'm not saying he's wrong on this, I'm saying I didn't read what he wrote. And yeah that'd be bad if they were reverting because you made the edit, but I'm not convinced of that. But I don't really care so you don't need to spend any time convincing me.

I guess then we have a decision to make. Both words have some ambiguity, but I think that we mean marriage is clarified by the context as "[it's a thing called plural marriage]" appears within the same sentence as polygyny. This is acceptable I think and communicates our intent faster than "polygamy called plural marriage ps no girls are allowed to have more than one husband" would. It's redundant, or something, and takes more words than necessary. Using polygyny allows maximum word effectiveness because it communicates that only males could have multiple spouses and then plural marriage comes in and not only says what it was called in the church but also emphasizes we mean marriage. Most of the contexts I've seen polygyny not meaning marriage in have been referring to non-humans. cookiecaper (talk / contribs) 14:39, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute (2)

This page is on RFC so I peeked in. The issue of calling people saints seems to be resolved. Is there another issue that is still ongoing? Or is it the polygamy issue below? Cuñado - Talk 17:30, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It's been more of a general ongoing issue. The article currently does not represent many of the non-mormon views needed to create a well-rounded npov artcile. There has been a problem with non-mormon editors being heavily discouraged from editing, and a very overbearing mrmon presence deciding what can and cannot go into the article. It seems to have improved at least somewhat since I announced I was going to bring in an outside source (the RfC), and perhaps has improved slightly more since I did list it...but it is perhaps too early to tell, I may just be feeling more hopeful about it. I am hoping to attract a larger number of neutral and opposing standpoints so the article can get evened out, as it appears I am the only non-mormon editor sticking around at the moment and I started getting frustrated to the point of starting to get dragged into the negative behaviour used here to deter unwanted editors. I listed some of the immediate concerns regarding mormon biased POV already in the article (look for the numbered sections above), but only in the first two sections, hoping that people would get the idea and take it past those two sections, but so far that hasn't happened. Furthermore, I was repeatedly accused of being too unknowledgable to edit the article, yet told that if I wanted it more npov, I should do it myself. So far, every edit I have made has been reverted at least once, without being supported by the explaination that I was demanded to give for just suggesting that changes be made. I am also trying to stress here that it is important for church sources and links to be balanced with non church sources and links, as there is only one non-church source and no non-church links at this time. I guess that pretty much sums it up from my perspective, everything else is summed up in the extremely long "discussion" above. I would like to note that it would be easier to assume good faith if pro-mormon editors were willing to add in representations of alternate views themselves, instead of trying to keep them out of the article altogether. bcatt 18:28, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, I'm not a Mormon, yet I've stuck around and occasionally contribributed. I do agree that there is strong Mormon presence, though a lot of this is because non-Mormons don't know or care much about the life and times of Joe Smith Jr. So far, the only specific issue you've mentioned in the polygyny/polygamy one, and I can see some merit to both sides. It's certainly not a case where there's a clear attempt at white-washing. As it stands, this article is one of the more balanced of the Mormon-related articles out there. In short, I'm all for making the article better, and that may well mean fixing POV, but we need to stay concrete and deal with specific issues, not broad complaints of bad faith. If something's bad, let's make it better; complaining isn't going to fix anything. Alienus 18:36, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think you've read the preceeding dispute because I have in fact mentioned a lot more than just the polygamy/polygyny issue. bcatt 19:00, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but people have been working towards improving the article in an NPOV way and they have been accused of attempting to WP:OWN the article, or criticized for their attempts. It would be alot more helpful if you suggested alternative language rather than just criticizing what is there - what is there is often the result of much discussion, and in many cases unsatisfactory to the many editors of this page; thus, we are looking for suggestions.

Personally, I apologize for my unwelcome attitude. Unfortunately, I reacted improperly to the marking of NPOV without discussion, the reverting and criticism of User:Storm Rider, as well as the comments on my talk page.

Finally, going to specific references and finding inflammatory material that has been discussed as to it's source, verifiability and reliability and summarized already - see the sub-article about this section for the current state of that additional material - is, IMHO, not properly working towards NPOV.

Additionally, I find your accusations in the summaries that users are attempting to censor material, when the very things you are adding are in the additional detail at Life of Joseph Smith, Jr. from 1831 to 1844 along with the NPOV presentation of both sides of the disputed language is very difficult to take. Trödel&#149;talk 20:16, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Cunado, I hope you stick around for a while and please read the discussion page; nothing is more enlightening than the evidence itself. Rants can be one of my weaknesses, but I typcially do so if I believe an impact can be made. I have learned that in this instance everything that is said goes right by with no impact whatsoever. Going so far as to want to limit the number of "pro-Mormon" editors; has anyone ever suggested limiting editors on any article? I have chocked this one up to something that must be endured. After a long period we will get through it, but I look forward to individuals who assist such as yourself. Bcatt seems incapable of assuming that any of the editors with a long-term interaction on this article can be trusted; Mormon and non-Mormon alike. Thanks for your willingness to assist. Storm Rider 19:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Balancing resource list

Some editors have remarked on the seemingly one-sidedness of the resource list. To that end I wanted to create this section to propose additional sources not previously mentioned that could be used to add variety to list. I've only got one at the moment:

• "Joseph Smith" by Robert V. Remini

Sad to say, I haven't read all of it, but the parts I have read are amazing. IMHO, he does a good job of providing a balanced presentation and puts a lot of the events in the context of the bigger picture like the section on JS's presidential bid.

Bcatt, I noticed that in one of the posts above you said you have used some impartial sources as part of you're arguments. Maybe I missed them or misunderstood that statement (maybe these were sources in reference to wiki policy and not JS), but I can't seem to find where you state what those sources are. Would you mind sharing/repeating these sources on JS? --FyzixFighter 07:01, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

In fact, I pointed out that storm rider pushes their POV without support of an impartial source. The sources I have relied on are wikipedia policy and universally accepted publications (dictionaries, etc). Other than that, I have not made any objection to things that aren't obvious to anyone unaffected by their bias. bcatt 07:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Plural wives of Joseph Smith, Jr.

People really need to look at what I've brought up there, as it applies to all Wikipedia's articles on Joseph Smith Jr. --Nerd42 15:37, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Polygyny - Polygamy

bcatt, I was rereading the article in full per my promise on your talk page. I thought that change was benign. Now that I see that is about the only substantive change you have made - I understand your frustration - that was not my intent. You have accused me of personal attacks and being irrational; as well as assumed that my edits were made in bad fath - please - that is not the way to come to concensus.

Finally, as to the merits, Polygyny is specifically what was practiced. Your argument that it must be polygamy because gamy has an etomology of marriage is unpersuasive. Second, polygamy is also linked to and used int he second sentence. Third, JS was not accused of being one of 2 husbands, but only of specifically polygyny i.e. having multiple wives. Trödel&#149;talk 15:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, it appears that JS was one of two partners, if not husbands, of Nancy Johnson. bcatt 15:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, I am intensely curious as to what "multiple marriage equally can mean non marital multiple marriage relationships" is supposed to mean, but, of course, nobody is willing to respond. bcatt 16:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Very simply that most polygamists in the US do not have multiple marriages they have one marriage and other relationships that they treat as marriages (if they are truly married to 2 people at once they can and are prosecuted under anti-polygamy statutes). Instead these polygamists either just enter into private "marriage" ceremonies that are not recognized by anyone other than the participants, or they marry one wife, enter into a sham divorce, then marry the next one; or they do some other action that indicates to them that they are married to multiple partners. All of these situations are commonly referred to as polygamy. However, they are not "marriages" recognized by anyone other than people of their denomination. Trödel&#149;talk 19:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Plural wives in Mormon history is quite different from what society at large may think it means. Plural marriage is should be understood in the context of eternity an perspective. Joseph was "sealed" to many different women. Being sealed to another individual is defined as having the ability of being bonded throughout eternity. It is not known how many of the women to which Joseph was sealed lived with Joseph as a typical man and wife. Many think that the majority of his marriages were sealings only...i.e. they did not live as man and wife. It would be a mistake to think that Joseph was only sealed to all of his plural wives. Bushman's recent book cites that Joseph did appear to have sexual relations with some of them. There is a DNA project ongoing trying to determine if there are any descendants of Joseph Smith from these marriages; no progeny have yet been identified. Storm Rider 16:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm looking for a simple, straight answer here. Polygamy means polygamy...it means: poly=many, gamos=marriage. Therefore, how can polygamy refer to a non marital relationship? bcatt 16:26, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You will remember that this was at the beginning of the founding of the church. The doctrine of Plural wives was given as early as 1833 but it appears that Joseph failed to follow the revelation until much later. As the doctrine evolved, particularly under the period of Brigham Young, it appears that men and women sealed together also lived as man and wife; i.e. one man and many wives (this fits with you definition above). It was slightly different during Joseph's time. Though Joseph was sealed to many women and did not live as man and wife with all of them, some think just a few of them were in a marital relationship. However, we still would think of all of those women being Joseph's wives. Yes, they were married to him for all time and eternity, but they did not live as such in this life. The marriages were real, but they were focused on eternity and not this life. This gets to the fundamental difference between definitions of Plural Wife and Polygamy; they are not perfectly synonymous.

Also, sealings are not limited to man and wife realtionships. Families are believed to be able to be sealed for eternity. Many people were sealed to Joseph; both men and women. Though this happened early in church history, I am not aware of similar things happening today. Storm Rider 16:55, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

All of that is based on the LDS version of history and doctrine. While the LDS may believe that, and it should be covered that the LDS believes that, NPOV demands that it be labeled as what it is - the opinion of the LDS, not Smith's own idea(s). --Nerd42 19:38, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

It seems as though this whole polygamy/polygyny issue the result of a similar problem with "Saint"...if the mormons have decided to use a word differently than it is used in common language, it needs to be specifically noted at the time the word is used. Try to remember that this is not an article by mormons for mormons (or would-be mormons), but is an article by everyone for anyone. Specifically identifying that a word is being used differently than it's actual meaning avoids confusion and misunderstanding, it is the same practice that would be used in any other article, religious in content or not, which used either unfamiliar words (such as might be transferred directly from a foreign language), made-up words (as one might find in a work of fiction), or words used differently than their actual meaning (as this case appears to be). bcatt 19:52, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Article size

That said (above), this article has reached 50 kb, which is a size generally recommended to be split. Yes, I realize it is already split. And I also noticed, when examining what would be involved in shortening this article, that the "Early life" article is itself 55 kb, and is also split up...I imagine the rest of the articles high on the "tree" (or low, depending on how you look at it) are similarly getting too large. I have some ideas for streamlining the parts that are elaborated later...there's a lot of deep description of things here that is also described in sub articles...BUT, I have another idea that might be interesting to try first. I'm not sure if it's been done before or if it's an acceptable way to arrange things within the bounds of wikipedias policy and manual of style, but here is what I propose:

All the sources could be compiled into one page called "Joseph Smith, Jr.: references" (or whatever), and a single link to the sources page added to the bottom of each article. The sources themselves could then be organized within the references page to make them easy to browse, this would effectively save some space on each article, avoid repetitive listing of references, and also make the articles a little more aesthetic as the reader approaches the end of it. bcatt 20:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

While you were making this comment - I removed the additional detail - the material you have accused the users here of trying to censor out of wikipedia is already present in the sub-article. see my comments above Trödel&#149;talk 20:14, 10 February 2006 (UTC)