Talk:Joseph Smith

Pre-FAC review for Missouri War stuff

Some thoughts on that portion of the article ahead of a potential FAC:

• Can you double-check your sources for some of the chronology of this material? I'm reviewing the section in Perry McCandless's A History of Missouri: 1820 to 1860 published by Mizzou, and it seems to disagree with the article on the chronology of events. Armed bands exchanged fire, killing one Mormon and two non-Mormons, until the old settlers forcibly expelled the Latter Day Saints from the county. In response, Smith led a small paramilitary expedition, called Zion's Camp, to aid the Latter Day Saints in Missouri. The men of the expedition were disorganized, suffered from a cholera outbreak and were severely outnumbered. Smith sent two church representatives to petition Missouri governor Daniel Dunklin for protection and support, but Dunklin declined to aid the Mormons is what our article has for this. But McCandless has a chronology of 1) the original 1833 atrocities 2) petition to Dunklin instigated by Smith (apparently sometime between July and October 1833) 3) the fight at the Big Blue where the three people were killed in November 1833 4) Zion's camp on the move (May 1834)
• Something that seems an odd exclusion: p. 109 of McCandless claims that After the Gallatin melee, a rumor circulated that the Adam-ondi-Ahman colony was to be destroyed. Sampson Avard and Sidney Rigdon organized a force to resist the attack, and Smith accompanied the group to the colony. Finding no danger there the men marched to Gallatin, where leaders demanded and secured from Justice of the Peace Adam Black his pledge to respect the legal rights of Mormons. As a result of this action, Smith was arrested, tried, and bound for $500 to keep the peace, but there was to be no peace. So most of that isn't relevant to a Smith article, but do any of the sources you consulted mention this arrest and placement under bond apparently not long after the Gallatin incident?
• McCandless mentions that in October, Smith made a direct appeal to support fighting for their rights (pp. 109-110). Is this supported by other sources/worth mentioning
• I know it's not best to get too much in the weeds for background with this, but is the infamous Mormon Extermination Order (which didn't get struck from the books in Missouri until the 1970s) worth mentioning?

I unfortunately only have the McCandless source on me right now, and it's a general history of the state during the statehood to brink of the Civil War period. If there's any further research needed, I can manage to get ahold of a copy of LeSueur's work on the conflict. Hog Farm _Talk 03:04, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

I have access to a handful of publications that treat the events in Missouri, including some of the referenced titles, and some time this month. I'll see what I can do to confirm, clarify, or straighten out.

As for Smith being arrested, is that not the jailing at Liberty? It's mentioned in the article as Smith and five others, including Rigdon, were charged with treason, and transferred to the jail at Liberty, Missouri, to await trial.

I plan to for now consult some or a combination of:

• Adam Jortner, No Place for Saints: Mobs and Mormons in Jacksonian America (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2022) (a history of the expulsion from Jackson County)
• Richard Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling: Joseph Smith (Alfred A. Knopf, 2005) (referenced on the page)
• Marvin S. Hill, Quest for Refuge: The Mormon Flight from American Pluralism (Signature Books, 1989) (referenced on the page)

P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 21:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@P-Makoto:, were you ever able to look into this? Mostly I'm concerned about the possible chronology issues about Zion's Camp that Hog Farm references. Trevdna (talk) 14:12, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

@Hog Farm: circling back to this one after a while. It appears you're correct on the chronology of the petitions happening before Big Blue and Zion's Camp. I've updated the article. As far as the rest of these items, I think they are all either addressed already (for instance, the Mormon Extermination Order is referenced and linked to, albeit briefly, under the "Life In Missouri" section) or - I would argue - are beyond the scope of this summary article. We're already struggling to keep its length down. For instance, the part about Smith being arrested but released on bail, proved to be relatively minor in the long run. I've already slimmed up the Missouri section (for overall article length) and I think Smith's arrest would be a little much. (Note: I'm under the assumption that the incident you're referring to is a separate incident from the eventual imprisonment at Liberty Jail. If the two incidents are one, then the answer is much simpler, in that the arrest is indeed covered in the article.) Likewise on the "direct appeal" you were talking about: I'd say it's probably not worth mentioning. If you'd like either of them included, we can look at putting it in the subarticle, fair enough? Trevdna (talk) 20:13, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Agree that given the length considerations the ommissions are appropriate. If you do want me to look back into the arrest issue at some point in the future, I can. I'll try to look over the chronology thing sometime but I've become very busy and can make no promises about when I can look at that. Hog Farm _Talk 23:36, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

For me, it’s fine where it stands, and I’m cautiously optimistic about its chances at FAC. So unless you see anything else that’s outstanding, I think we’re fine here.

Thanks for your time and efforts in reviewing, and for all you do generally. Trevdna (talk) 19:58, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

LDS Church

In the open the wording is, “ Several religious denominations identify as the continuation of the church that he organized, including the LDS Church and the Community of Christ.”

I am not aware of any organization officially identifying as LDS Church. I know many Latter-day Saints who are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but if you are identifying official names then the official name is shown incorrectly.  

For brevity I could see’The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS)’ after first use. Or short form ‘the Church’. But first use should show official name. Also, it may sound awkward, but it makes sense to me to remove ‘the’ before Community of Christ to avoid confusion around its official name. 2001:56A:F73F:4500:7D48:3302:EEE9:780D (talk) 03:30, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

The wording identified is at the end of the 4th paragraph in the lede....the full name and then establishment of the short name for the LDS Church is already done in the opening paragraph of the article. ChristensenMJ (talk) 03:37, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

Church of Christ

Under the section titled, "Joseph Smith Jr.", 2nd paragraph, is this sentence, "The same year he organized the Church of Christ, calling it a restoration of the early Christian Church."

Suggestion: add a sentence clarifying that the church name was subsequently changed to the current title, "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-daySaints",  based on this recorded statement in April 26, 1838

"For thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", Doctrine and Covenants 115:4

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/115?id=p4&lang=eng#p4

The name of the church was reitterated by the current president of the church:

"The Correct Name of the Church"

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng

The emphasis on the correct name has eclipsed "Mormon church" or other popular references.

Suggestion: tie hyperlinks to the name of the church to that churches official website, which offers comprehensive historical records

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/books-and-lessons/church-history?lang=eng Sdoud (talk) 01:27, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' name, and the various names of the church organization Smith founded, are explained on the page (permanent link to current version):

• The religion he founded is followed to the present day by millions of global adherents and several churches, the largest of which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
• In Missouri, the church also took the name "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"

The phrase "Mormon Church" never appears on the page. For the recorded consensus on forms like "LDS Church", see MOS:LDS, a link to Wikipedia's Manual of Style. It looks like last time the use of the phrase "LDS Church" was discussed, a preponderance of editors came out in favor of using "LDS Church" as the preferred shorthand for pages in mainspace, and the discussion closed with that as consensus. P-Makoto (she/her) (talk) 02:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 April 2024

The statement in quotes below is not accurate there is no LDS Church, and members of the church have always referred to one another as Saints. They did for a period of time accept being called Mormons, but it was derogatory and often used to imply the members were not Christian, or that they were non member sympathizers of the church in general.

"Mormons generally regard Smith as a prophet comparable to Moses and Elijah. Several religious denominations identify as the continuation of the church that he organized, including the LDS Church and the Community of Christ."

It should read "Saints generally regard Smith as a prophet comparable to Moses and Elijah. Several religious denominations identify as the continuation of the church that he organized, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints commonly referred to as the LDS Church, and the Community of Christ." Jason Wasden (talk) 22:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

When you're writing for a global audience (as we are), a saint is typically understood to be a dead person who has been canonized. In that light, it's unlikely that "Saints generally regard Smith" at all. Also, see MOS:LDS. ~Awilley (talk) 01:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk|contribs) 01:47, 16 April 2024 (UTC)