Talk:Prek Cali

Primary objective for article at this stage

Apologies for having littered the page with 'translation needed' tags. Unfortunately, many of us have been asking for a single instance article tag box for this specific use for years, but no administrators or technical staff have done anything about it... therefore, we're left to make messes of articles.

There is only one instance of an English language source being used. If nothing is available, you must translate at least the title and the gist of the section.

After that, it will be necessary to establish whether the resources being used are reliable and whether the article, in and of itself, is highly POV. Please remember that WP:NPOV is a policy, not just a guideline. At the moment, the article is reading as nationalist propaganda and needs to be toned down.

Thank you for your understanding. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:41, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

There are many notable people and events that did not receive significant attention of English language sources. Although English sources are preferred, in such cases it is completely allowed to use non-English sources. Per WP:NONENG it is necessary to provide translation only when quoting a non-English source. No policy requires translation of title and the gist of the section just because non-English source is used. "As with sources in English, if a dispute arises involving a citation to a non-English source, editors may request that a quotation of relevant portions of the original source be provided, either in text, in a footnote, or on the article talk page." If you are concerned about particular source you are free to request translation. Tag bombing every non-English citation is wrong.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:36, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

It's in desperate need of copy editing. I could try to copyedit without being able to consult the sources, but would need to consult with you (or another Albanian speaker) regarding instances where I can't fathom what the gist is. The German sources aren't a problem for me. If you're willing to work in collaboration with me, I'm happy to remove the tags. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 03:03, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Of course. Thanks for your kind offer to copyedit the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:25, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I've removed the tags and will make a start on copyediting in the next couple of days. Cheers! --Iryna Harpy (talk) 23:27, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Addition of incorrect and polemics text

User:AlbertBikaj insist on addition diff numerous assertions based on flickr Dr. Luigj Martini : "Prek Cali,Kelmendi dhe Kelmendasit" and to remove other sources because they are allegedly written by communist,and great anti-chetnik and anti-albanian authors.

As illustration of scholarly quality of flickr Dr. Luigj Martini work can serve this assertion: "In 1913 Knjaz Nikola offered to Cali gold to let Montenegro to get Plava and Gucia and Vermosh,but Prek Cali refused" Plav and Gusinje were captured by Montenegrins in 1912 and held by them during whole 1913 and 1914. In case some of "communist,and great anti-chetnik and anti-albanian authors" are still alive so it would be good to take care about BLP policy. Cooperation between Cali and Chetniks is not supported only by Albanian and Yugoslav communist era historiography. There are tons of works written by Chetnik emigration that emphasize their cooperation with Cali. It is wrong to remove informations about this cooperation just because some Albanian authors denied it. Both positions should be presented. Thank you.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:08, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I think AlbertBikaj has overstepped the line on neutrality several times on other articles. I have problems communicating with him as his English is extremely weak.

As we know, Wikipedia encourages as many sources as possible for articles in order to maintain a neutral balance. Dismissing several sources in favour of one is WP:POV. I would suggest that Albert find some serious verifiable and reliable sources to back up his claim that the authors cited in this article are not reliable!

P.S. Apologies in the delay in copyediting. I have a huge backlog, but this article is there and will be attended to. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 09:36, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator, thats story about borders! Knjaz Nikola wanted to pay Cali,to let him to move the border when he wanted,anyway Prek Cali refused.Prek Cali protected borders and refused to take gold from Knjaz Nikola. Also in official Albanian history cooperation with chetniks is absolutely untrue! You are refering to serbian communist literature,which oppose personality of Prek Cali. Also the new documentary denies all these serbian communist theory's! Also he was not against muslim Albanians! These books which claim that Cali was cooperator with chetniks are based on Albanian communist's litterature. After communist fall,these story's were denied,because Cali was not a traitor,but a hero. I apologies for my bad English.AlbertBikaj (talk) 13:26, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

If it was for Prek Cali, the Montenegrin border would be in Durres. Mondiad (talk) 17:37, 16 February 2014 (UTC)

Mondiad please read official history not communist propaganda. Knjaz Nikola wanted to give him a lot of gold,just to let him to move the border,but he refused! he is officially recognized as Albanian hero. AlbertBikaj (talk) 12:20, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Read this Mondiad, the protection of Albanian border during 1913-1926.AlbertBikaj (talk) 13:58, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator I referred to Documentary about Prek Cali bipgraphy made by Digitalb. Im neutral,but you are describing an Albanian hero as a traitor. He is officially recognised as a Patriot and honor of nation in 2010 by President Bujar Nishani. Please stop dis-informing wikipedia readers,i have read Dr.Luigj Martini book,and i have met witness who knew Prek Cali. I know that Prek Cali was enemy of Montenegro,because he didnt let Montenegrin delegate to take "Bjeshket e Kuqe" (in North Albania) during 1920-26 Cali protected Albanian border from Montenegrins. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by AlbertBikaj (talk • contribs) 14:08, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Iryna Harpy i would suggest to move information's from Serbian literature to " Aftermath debate" because if we referrer to these information's we are not netural,there are just theory's which are not accepted by Albanian institute of History because Prek Cali didnt support chetnicks and he wasnt against muslims ,which Serbian authors say. Prek Cali is awarded in 1993 as Martyr of Democracy,in 2010 is awarded as "Honor of Nation" and "Hero of Albania". Serbian theory was accepted only during communism,also i must say that there are also pro-communist Albanians which are against Prek Cali and other Martyr's of Democracy,i protested a lot of times deleting false arguments,because he wasn't a chetnick supporter or against muslims,my grandfather fought along his side,and he is still alive,i asked him about these story's and he denied,also i read books about him. (Ps. My grandfather is awarded in 2003 as "Honored citizen of Kelmendi" by Jozefina Topalli. Also font forget that second Serbian literature UÇK,Adem Jashari were terrorists,and Albanians are not Europeans,second them Kosovo is Serbia,Skanderbeg was Serb according them etc.. so its not worthy to use Serbian literature for Albanian Heros. I apologize for my English,sincerely Albert.AlbertBikaj (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Part of Albanian historiography denies Cali's connection with Chetniks. This view is already given undue weight in this article. Your intention to remove all other views and to present only this view would seriously violate WP:NPOV policy.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:10, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Antidiskriminator "Part of Albanian History" is the Official history of Albania,the rest is just part of Hoxha's supporters. Please move "facts" acording to Serbian literature to "Aftermath debate" ,because he is OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZED HERO! AlbertBikaj (talk) 17:34, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree he was a hero. Like Mondiad said, if it was up to Cali, there would be no border between Christians in Albania and neighboring regions. He bravely fought against communist together with Chetniks who supported him with money and arms. No surprise he is officially recognized as a hero. I don't understand your position here. Anyway, I explained my position and I don't have anything to add to it now. Other editors also do not share your position. I respect that your opinion is different, but you can not expect everybody to be somehow obliged to keep discussion this with you as long as you are unsatisfied with opinion of other editors. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:47, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Its not like Mondiad said! Cali defended border of Albania from Montenegro in 1920-1926, he refused gold from King Nikola of Montenegro! He wanted an Ethnic Albania. He fought against Ottoman Empire,against Serbian Kingdom and against Communists. If it wasnt for Cali ,Kelmendi and Malsia e Madhe would be now under Montenegro! He wasnt against muslims,because he had good friendship with Bajram Curri and his last name is muslim too,he fought along side with muslim Albanians in battle of Kopliku in 1920. My grandfather knew him personally,he didnt hate muslim Albanians!!! In 2000 Albanians built the bust of Cali in Shkodra,and Prek Cali's figure is respected by majority of Albanians,(muslims and christians),and mostly he is respected in Kosovo! Communists destroyed his grave,and made up a lot of storys about him,which were supported by seriban communists. So please move Communists theory in "Aftermath debate" AlbertBikaj (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2014 (UTC) Ps. Also i can say,that Mondiad is pro Communists,he wrote some articles about communists Albanians. So please don't rrefer to him

• Please don't violate WP:NPA. Comment on content, not on contributor.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:45, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

I didnt offend no one,and please read about Protection of Border by Cali! Not fairy tales of communists,or watch the documentary.