Talk:Rape in Islamic law

Move article?

Shouldn't this article be called "Rape in Islamic law"? At a glance, Azam's book seems to use "sexual violation" in the title, but mostly "rape" in the body, and it doesn't look like she discusses other types of sexual violation. The blurb begins "This book provides a detailed analysis of Islamic juristic writings on the topic of rape..." The other sources overwhelmingly use the term "rape". Eperoton (talk) 21:39, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Done. Al-Andalusi (talk) 17:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Add info about unbelievers

I think this article may be missing what Islamic laws say regarding the rape of unbelievers. Thinker78 (talk) 22:48, 12 August 2018 (UTC).

This article only tells us that Islam prohibits rape of Muslim females... but with tons of deliberate biased efforts, it tries to hide what Islam says about Non-Muslim Beautiful Women. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.196.32.143 (talk • contribs) 05:07, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Rape of slaves

the article goes to great lengths to not spell out what Islamic Law thinks about the rape of slaves, even though we can guess it from peripheral parts. This is unencyclopedic Wefa (talk) 02:31, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

We have a good selection of RSs cited here. We should review them, and if they discuss rape of slaves, we should reflect how they cover it. Some of them may not, since traditionalist interpreters of Islamic law from the modern era often don't consider the provisions for slavery as being relevant for modern discussions of it and don't mention them. I'm sure there's a historical discussion somewhere in RSs, though. Eperoton (talk) 13:55, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Or, alternatively, there are probably RSs discussing how ISIS ideologues interpreted classical Islamic law to justify sexual slavery and rape. It would be good to find a scholarly discussion and not just vague allusions to Islamic law in mass media. Eperoton (talk) 14:19, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

No mention of following terminologies of Koran

Terminologies:

1) Ma malakat aymanukum & Maal-e-Ghanimat. Meaning: "Your right-hand possession"…Getting married to get freedom. Maal-e-Ghanimat with respect to women captured after the war.

2) Kafir Women

3) There is no word for secularism in Islam/Koran.

volume 2, book 23, number 374: حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ، حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو عَامِرٍ، حَدَّثَنَا فُلَيْحُ بْنُ سُلَيْمَانَ، عَنْ هِلاَلِ بْنِ

عَلِيٍّ، عَنْ أَنَسِ بْنِ مَالِكٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ شَهِدْنَا بِنْتًا لِرَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ وَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم جَالِسٌ عَلَى الْقَبْرِ ـ قَالَ فَرَأَيْتُ عَيْنَيْهِ تَدْمَعَانِ قَالَ ـ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ هَلْ مِنْكُمْ رَجُلٌ لَمْ يُقَارِفِ اللَّيْلَةَ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو طَلْحَةَ أَنَا‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ فَانْزِلْ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالَ فَنَزَلَ فِي قَبْرِهَا‏.‏v

Source: https://www.sahih-bukhari.com/Pages/Bukhari_2_23.php

Translation: We were (in the funeral procession) of one of the daughters of the Prophet and he was sitting by the side of the grave. I saw his eyes shedding tears. He said, "Is there anyone among you who did not have sexual relations with his wife last night?" Abu Talha replied in the affirmative. And so the Prophet told him to get down in the grave. And so he got down in her grave and had sex/rape with the dead.

NPOV

This edit is deeply problematic as it presents one view as the only view. It adds "According to the Hanafis, the right of sex belongs to the man and he may force the woman to have sex with him."

This is ridiculous. Hanafi scholars most certainly do not condone rape. Here is an example of those who condemn marital rape. I'm removing this. If you wish to add it back, make sure you follow WP:NPOV.VR _talk 02:50, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, Vice regent. I just checked the NPOV policy and it speaks about not giving equal validity to all sources. We can't give a modern fatwa website the same credibility as a scholarly work on the opinions of classical scholars. I would also request you seek consensus before making sweeping changes. I would also urge you to check the sources before removing the content. Both here and the other page. Thanks. Mcphurphy (talk) 03:29, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

The views of those certain hanafi scholars was right but its not the consensuses among the hanafis either to make that claim.Arsi786 (talk) 06:12, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

@Arsi786:1. Your claim that there is no consensus among Hanafis is incorrect. The book "Islamic Jurisprudence According To The Four Sunni Schools Al Fiqh 'ala Al Madhahib Al Arba'ah" says

The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah said: "The right of the sexual pleasure belongs to the man, not the woman, by that it is meant that the man has the right to force the woman to gratify himself sexually.

There is no other opinion reported from the followers of Imam Abu Hanifah. That passage was actually part of a list where the views of each Sunni school was given. If there was any other opinion in the Hanafi school, it would have been included. Secondly, the Dar-al Ifta source is not an acceptable secondary source. Its a modern fatwa website catering to modern sensibilities so it is giving an apologetic answer with no reference to what the traditional scholars/classical jurists say. Moreover, if we are to use a primary source, a better option would be to use Al Hidaya in which the official positions of the Hanafi school are codified. And in it, it quite explicitly says that a man may force his wife.

2. My text in the article was:

The other three schools (Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali) neither forbid men from forcing their wives to have sex nor do they expressly say anything in favour. For all Islamic law schools, the concept of marital rape is an "oxymoron."

This was an accurate summary of what the cited academic source said:

Non-Hanafis did not penalize a husband for forcing sex on his wife, but neither do they explicitly authorize it in the way that al- Khassaf does. For all, marital rape is an oxymoron; rape (ightisab) is a property crime that by definition cannot be committed by the husband.

Please restore that.

3. You removed the following text I wrote:

However, Islamic jurists say that wives cannot force their husbands to have sex with them. They assert that while women have sexual rights over their husbands, those rights are legally unenforceable. This jurists explain that this is because sex is a man's right and not his duty

But it was an accurate representation of the original source. You can verify it on pg. 180 here.[6] I will quote the relevant passage here:

Even short of rape, there is not much room for sexual mutuality in a system of marital rights built upon a male-ownership view of sexual licitness. Traditional Muslim jurists discuss a woman’s right to sexual activity within marriage, but her rights to sexual access to her husband (and even to non sexual companionship) are virtually unenforceable. Indeed, these jurists think of sex as “the husband’s right and not his duty,” so it makes little sense to compel him to do it. Thus, a Muslim wife’s right to sexual pleasure, though morally acknowledged in the scripture and literature, is legally meaningless

So please restore this verifiable content instead of deleting it, please. Mcphurphy (talk) 05:41, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

(1) You do know that's not a consensus right its the view of hanafi jurist a consensus is when all or a majority agree to it and if you bothered to look at the fatwa site its one of the biggest in egypt and is run by mufti's and I never removed the sources I just combined as al hedaya is written by a hanafi scholar. (2)Which a false statement where shafi did speak against it and kecia ali made it clear that not all hanafi scholars called for it to be forced and she was quiet on the maliki view I have shown the full quote not selectively chose certain parts. (3) Irrelevant its about rape not about that a muslim women can force her husband into it and she can report it if her husband neglects her for more that four months if you bothered to read the kecia alis book. Arsi786 (talk) 06:58, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

First of all please keep in mind WP:CIVILITY. You are claiming the absence of consensus without proof. We know from the source material presented so far that the Hanafi view allows forced intercourse with the wife. I have already explained why we can't accept the Dar al Ifta source.

Secondly, I do not understand your 2nd point. I have merely quoted the original source material against the text I wrote. And anyone who reads it can see that what I wrote was an accurate representation of the source material.

Thirdly, that book is by Asifa Qureshi. Not Kecia Ali. And I do not understand what you mean as what you are saying is not quite clear. Mcphurphy (talk) 06:23, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Mcphurphy, I provided a source that directly contradicts the statement you're pushing, and you can't just ignore it. :::::Further, you are practicing extreme Wikipedia:Cherrypicking. The Ayesha Chaudhry book that you inserted says on page 150 that some traditionalist scholars "categorically prohibit marital rape" and those that don't at least "voice strong discouragement". Somehow you omitted that content from your edit.VR _talk 08:11, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Thats in a footnote and cites a modern Hanafi scholar Ibn Adam. I think taking modern scholars as representative of classical views is disingenuous. The same Ayesha Chaudhary documents how classical Hanafi scholars such as Ibn Nujaym and Al-Nasafi permit "marital rape." To understand Chaudhary's work I suggest reading this book review [7] which explains the meaning of her work:

Chaudhry critically analyses four tendencies in respect ofthe issue of physical violence against wives. The “traditionalist” approach accepts the Islamic tradition’s patriarchal and hierarchical cosmology and defends theright of husbands to discipline their wives including physical violence. The “neo-traditionalist” approach maintains this right of husbands, however placing re-strictions on the right of husbands to discipline. The intriguing aspect of this approach, which is common among many modern-day believers, actively mis-represents the Islamic tradition, thereby falsely portraying the tradition as justmand gender egalitarian for the most part.

Mcphurphy (talk) 09:06, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I also urge you not to make more edits while we are in the middle of a content dispute. Mcphurphy (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

That's a fair point. Maybe we can go back to the last stable version until we reach consensus here?VR _talk 09:39, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

The last stable version was actually this.[8] It was stable for over a month. I think the onus should be on the removalists. As a compromise I am prepared to include the Dar al Ifta content to showcase the views of modern scholars. Mcphurphy (talk) 09:49, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

You idea of "onus" is opposite to what WP:ONUS says "The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is upon those seeking to include disputed content." So the content should stay out if there's no consensus, especially if its recently added.VR _talk 15:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I took a closer look at the sources, and once again you're distorting what they say. For example, Shafi'i doesn't legalize marital rape, but instead says that if a wife refuses sex, the husband can refuse her "companionship". This is a far cry from recognizing marital rape!

Another issue is the quote "For all, marital rape is an oxymoron; rape (ightisab) is a property crime that can't be committed by husband by definition." This is a refusal to classify marital rape in the category of ightisab. This is not a refusal to criminalize marital rape. Marital rape can still be categorized under other headings and still be punished. For example, this source indicates that rape in Jordan is classified under ightisab, whereas rape in Egypt is not classified under that category but is classified under hatk'ird, and that both of these are crimes. There are other sources that indicate that tradition Islamic law distinguished marital rape from other forms of rape, but nevertheless prohibited both which are already in this article.VR _talk 15:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I've attempted to resolve the above in this edit. What do you think?VR _talk 16:09, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

I looked through your edit and I think it suffers from imbalance and doesn't keep in mind the dominant vs minority factor in representing the opinions. I will post up my proposed version here in a while. Regards, Mcphurphy (talk) 05:31, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Proposed version

@Vice regent: This new proposed version is more faithul to the sources. I noted you did not represent Dar al Ifta or Noor accurately so my version includes them with a rewrite.

The book Islamic Jursprudence According to the Four Sunni Schools reports that "the followers of Imam Abu Hanifah said the right of the sexual pleasure belongs to the man, not the woman, by that it is meant that the man has the right to force the woman to gratify himself sexually." In discusssing the scenarios where a woman is no longer entitled to her husband's financial support, Hanafi texts say that her presence in the husband's home still entitles her to financial maintenance. They treat the wife's disobedience differently to the other traditions. They say that a woman who is still in the husband's home is still entitled to maintenance despite her sexual refusal because the husband can still have sex with her against her will. Abu Hanifa and his students disagreed in case the wife had legitimate grounds for sexual refusal. Abu Hanifa supported a wife's sexual refusal in case her husband had not paid her dowry. However, Abu Yusuf and Muhammad al Shaybani disagreed and said that the husband who has not paid the dowry is still allowed to force her and is not sinful for doing so. Another text reads "is lawful and he sins" which shows a differentiation between the action's legality and morality. However, in case the dowry had been paid there was no questioning of the husbands's right to "have sex with her against her will." They agreed that it was permitted because she is a wrongdoer for refusing the husband. In reporting these views, Al-Khassaf does not even raise the possibility that forced intercourse could be sinful.

In discussing the disciplinary procedures a husband has to follow in respect to a disobedient wife, the Hanafi jurist Al-Kasani says that when it comes to the abandonment step the husband can abandon his wife in bed but still have sex with her whenever he wants. This means a wife has to have non-consensual sex. Al-Kasani asserted that marital rape was permissible. Others in the Hanafi school such as Ibn Nujaym also held marital rape to be acceptable conduct for a husband. Ibn Nujaym states that a woman is entitled to maintenance as long as she is the husband's house because he can force her to have sex. Another scholar, al-Nasafi added that since soundness is not a wife's soundness is not a condition for having sex with her the husband will not be liable if she dies due to the intercourse. Al-Nasafi understood this to be the position of Imam Abu Hanifa.

The non-Hanafis neither expressly sanction marital rape, unlike al-Khassaf, nor do they penalise husbands for it. The sum of Islamic judicial opinions from the four Sunni law schools is that rape under Islamic law means "Forcible illegal sexual intercourse by a man with a woman who is not legally married to him, without her free will and consent. Most interpretations of Islamic law do not criminalize marital rape. Kecia Ali states that jurists rarely discuss this issue but forced sex with a wife might be an "ethical infraction" and if it involves physical violence it could "conceivably" even be a legal infraction. However, in the conceptual world of the jurists rape is a property crime which "by definition cannot be committed by a husband or owner, who possesses an entitlement to, or ownership over, his wife’s or slave’s sexual capacity." Hina Azam puts it in other words as "coercion within marriage or concubinage may be repugnant, but it remained fundamentally legal."

According to A.M. Noor the punishment for marital rape is not similar to the strict punishment for ordinary rape. In his view it is treated as an act of domestic violence which entitles her to seek divorce and prosecution. Similarly, according to Georgetown University professor Jonathan A.C. Brown sexual abuse within marriage was conceptualized as harm inflicted on the wife rather than violation of consent. According to Brown, the historical record shows that women were able to go to court and force their husbands to desist and pay damages in such cases. According to Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah the Islamic scholars define marital rape to be when a man asks his wife to have sex during her menstrual period or in an abnormal way. If a husband uses violence to compel his wife to have sex, Dar al-Ifta holds it to be a sin and states that a wife can complain against him in court and have him punished. Ayesha Chaudhary claims that although some traditional scholars prohibit marital rape, other traditional scholars offer room to allow it even while discouraging it. For example Ibn Adam says that a husband cannot force his wife to have sex if she has a legitimate reason to refuse. This leaves room for a husband to rape his wife if she does not have a legitimate reason to refuse. However, Ibn Adam still discourages it.

However, Islamic jurists say that wives cannot force their husbands to have sex with them. They assert that while women have sexual rights over their husbands, those rights are legally unenforceable. This jurists explain that this is because sex is a man's right and not his duty.

References

Comments on proposal

• I strongly disagree with the above version. The normative Muslim view is that a husband may not rape his wife and this is substantiated by sources, some of which are already in the article. Yet your version delegates that to the end while leading with the WP:FRINGE opinion that Islam condones rape. This is a gross violation of WP:UNDUE. You use of the term "the followers of Imam Abu Hanifah" is quite misleading because while there are a few followers who had that opinion, the vast majority don't. You also bring in totally irrelevant topics like the issue of dowry and husband financially supporting his wife. As I mentioned above, these aren't relevant to the topic of rape. Finally, you actually misrepresent the sources. For example, the source says that medieval jurists do not penalize husbands for ightisab in marriage, not that they don't penalize husband for sexual assault on his wife. In fact, the sources note that sexually hurting the wife is a crime, yet interestingly you omitted that in your version.VR _talk 10:46, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Your text "Most interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape" is misleading. Its nowhere mentioned on pg. 429 of the Arab Quarterly source which you have cited. I can cite the entire page if need be to prove its absence.

Your text "According to Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah, marital rape is a sin" is WP:CHERRYPICKING. What the source actually said was this "Islamic scholars describe that marital rape occurs when the man asks his wife to have sexual intercourse during her menstrual period or in an abnormal sexual position or during fasting hours in Ramadan." In other words their definition of marital rape does not include forced sex in normal circumstances.

The normative Muslim view is that a husband may not rape his wife and this is substantiated by sources, some of which are already in the article. Yet your version delegates that to the end while leading with the WP:FRINGE opinion that Islam condones rape. This is a gross violation of WP:UNDUE

My response: Can you pinpoint which source says that the "normative" Muslim view is that a husband may not rape his wife? Just saying this is "substantiated in the sources' won't do.

You use of the term "the followers of Imam Abu Hanifah" is quite misleading because while there are a few followers who had that opinion, the vast majority don't.

My response: Your claim that the "vast majority don't" is unsubstantiated. However, to steer clear of the majority/minority debate, I merely quoted the book. Hence "followers of Abu Hanifah" is in quotation marks. So these are not my words, but the source's own words.

You also bring in totally irrelevant topics like the issue of dowry and husband financially supporting his wife.

My response: Dowry and financial support are not irrelevant. They are linked. You should read pg. 83 of the source to understand how Hanafi jurists link this to marital rape. It is accessible for you or anyone else to read. The Hanafi scholars essentially say that if the husband has paid dowry he can force but he does not have the right to force her if he has not paid the dowry.

Finally, you actually misrepresent the sources. For example, the source says that medieval jurists do not penalize husbands for ightisab in marriage, not that they don't penalize husband for sexual assault on his wife. In fact, the sources note that sexually hurting the wife is a crime, yet interestingly you omitted that in your version.

My response: There is no source misrepresentation at all. Here is what the source said on pg. 120 "Non-Hanafis do not penalize a husband for forcing sex on his wife, but neither do they explicitly authorize it in the way that al-Khassaf does." Now compare that to my text "The non-Hanafis neither expressly sanction marital rape, unlike al-Khassaf, nor do they penalise husbands for it" Anyone who reads it can see that its a proper representation of the source. Mcphurphy (talk) 11:07, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Literally every source in the section, except Kecia Ali, says that sexual violence by a husband is penalized. And Kecia Ali doesn't say that sexual violence by the husband was never penalized (see more on that below). Thus, that is the normative view.

You said:In other words their definition of marital rape does not include forced sex in normal circumstances.. Read the next paragraph, they clearly say, "If the husband used violence to force his wife to sleep with him, he is legally a sinner and she has the right to go to court and file a complaint against him to get punished." They are clearly talking about "forced sex" and hence rape.

Your quote "followers of Abu Hanifah said ...the man has the right to force the woman" may technically be from the source ... is a very misleading statement. The source says Abu Hanifah himself, in certain circumstances, condemned marital rape ("he sins [if he forces her]"). Since "followers of Abu Hanifah", by definition, does not include Abu Hanifah himself, you made the the opinion of the most important man in the Hanafi school of thought irrelevant. Finally, "followers of Abu Hanifah" may refer to some of his followers, not necessarily all of them.

Regarding dowry: page 83 says that there was disagreement over "legitimate grounds" for sexual refusal and that unpaid dower was just one such legitimate ground. Keep in mind this is only Kecia Ali's view and it is inconsistent with every other source which penalizes sexual violence in general. And even Kecia Ali says that medieval scholars distinguished forced from consensual sex.

Your text distorts the source: The non-Hanafis neither expressly sanction marital rape, unlike al-Khassaf, nor do they penalise husbands for it.

You need to literally read the next sentence on page 120 to see the distortion. Kecia Ali is defining rape as ightisab, a property crime, and is probably right in her assessment that non-Hanafis did not penalize ightisab in the context of marriage. But that doesn't mean sexual violence couldn't be punished under another classification - which it was, as shown by other sources.VR _talk 23:04, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

@Vice regent: No the source is not Kecia Ali. Its Ayesha Chaudhry. Here's what she has to say "Thus, marital rape is literally "uncriminizable" under dominant interpretations of the sharia." Note the word "dominant." This is the normative view.

Conversely, your sentence is "Most interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape" is not present anywhere in the Arab Quarterly Journal you cited. So that sentence is source misrepresentation.

Your quote "followers of Abu Hanifah said ...the man has the right to force the woman" may technically be from the source ... is a very misleading statement. The source says Abu Hanifah himself, in certain circumstances, condemned marital rape ("he sins [if he forces her]"). Since "followers of Abu Hanifah", by definition, does not include Abu Hanifah himself, you made the the opinion of the most important man in the Hanafi school of thought irrelevant. Finally, "followers of Abu Hanifah" may refer to some of his followers, not necessarily all of them.

My reply: You are confusing the quote from "Islamic Jurisprudence According to the Four Sunni Schools" (by Nancy Roberts) with the Kecia Ali source. The wording "Followers of Abu Hanifa" is used in the first source. Now, as for the Kecia Ali source, it says that Imam Abu Hanifa said that the husband is sinful if he forces her in case of an unpaid dower. At the end of the discussion it says "Still, while forcible intercourse might or might not be be sinful if the wife had the moral high ground because of unpaid dower, if an unpaid dower was not at issue then the husband's right to "have sex with her against her will" went unquestioned. Note by "unquestioned" it means there was no other opinion on the husband's right to force her in case he had paid the dowry. Moreover, we just report whatever the source says, as it says it. Also note that 37 pages later in that same book it sats quite categorically "the Hanafis" without any caveat which indicates they differ among themselves: The silence of the Hanafis can be explained easily: a wife's sexual refusal is irrelevant if not accompanied by her departure from the conjugal home, because her husband is permitted to have sex with her without her consent. So this is the Hanafi position.

Keep in mind this is only Kecia Ali's view and it is inconsistent with every other source which penalizes sexual violence in general. And even Kecia Ali says that medieval scholars distinguished forced from consensual sex.

My reply: Nope, this not Kecia Ali's view. She is reporting what the classical scholars say. It would be her view is she was expressing her own opinion. But she's not. She is reporting what the jurists have said. Furthermore, no other source penalizes marital rape. The proposed version has what Hina Azam says (that "coercion was fundamentally legal") and also what the Ayesha Chaudhry source says ("marital rape is literally "uncriminizable" under dominant interpretations of the sharia.")

Another point to be noted is that Kecia Ali does not differ from the other sources such as Dar al Ifta or Jonathan Brown at all. She explains in Concubinage and Consent (pg. 149):"jurists rarely discuss this issue but forced sex with a wife might be an "ethical infraction" and if it involves physical violence it could "conceivably" even be a legal infraction." In other words if forced sex involves physical violence it could probably be a legal infraction. This is the same thing that Dar al Ifta and Brown say. Dar al Ifta says: "If the husband used violence to force his wife to sleep with him". They mean forced sex accompanied with physical violence falls under domestic violence. Physical violence means beating and the like, not coerced penetration. Keep in mind what Hina Azam and Ayesha Chaudhry said ("coercion within marriage is fundamentally legal"). So you are wrong to think that Ali's view is inconsistent with every other source. Although even this does not have consensus, hence I have included the views of Al-Nasafi who says that if a wife dies during forced intercourse the husband is not liable and this is also the view of Imam Abu Hanifa. Either way, dominant interpretations of Sharia do not criminalise marital rape. Mcphurphy (talk) 02:11, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Mcphurphy, read what you just wrote:

Physical violence means beating and the like, not coerced penetration.

Coerced penetration is physical violence.

And if you go back and read the Kecia Ali source (pg 149), it is clear that when she says "rape" she narrowly means it as either zina or ightisāb. Just because marital rape is not punished under either of those classifications (according to her), doesn't mean it can't be punished under other classifications. So when Ayesha Chaudhry says "marital rape is uncriminizable", she is referring to ightisab in marriage (read the whole paragraph on pg 104). Which also explains why she says on page 150 that some "traditionalist scholars categorically prohibit marital rape". This is the third time I'm pointing the issue of classifications out, and I feel we keep going in circles.VR _talk 07:50, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Coerced penetration is certainly part of the definition of physical violence for us, but not for the jurists. Secondly, I am glad you have said this So when Ayesha Chaudhry says "marital rape is uncriminizable", she is referring to ightisab in marriage". So ightisab (rape) in marriage is not a criminal offence. And if its not a criminal offence it can't be punished(unless accompanied by violence in the form of beating - according to some scholars). Thats the majority view. Mcphurphy (talk) 08:02, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

That's the view according to Ali and Chaudhry anyway (I haven't researched their claims). But even if ightisab can't be punished, forced sex by the husband (which is called marital rape in plain English) can still be punished under other categories. For example, southeast Asian scholars say,

Quraish Shihab categorizes forced sexual intercourse as torture rather than rape itself... Instead of repealing marital immunity for rape, Pergas is in support of creating a new offence that criminalizes the act without penalizing it as rape, such as the practice in Malaysia.

Torture is definitely punishable by law.VR _talk 09:05, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

No thats not the view of Ali or Chaudhry. They are not expressing their own opinion. If they were we would attribute it to them. Rather, they are reporting the views of others. The dominant view that is. The article you quoted contains the opinions of those who fall under the non-dominant (i.e. minority) position. Mcphurphy (talk) 09:21, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Baiscally what your argument boil down to is this."Yes, marital rape isn't rape in Islam, but its still domestic violence so its punishable."

So if its a domestic violence issue then why even include it on this article? On this article just say that marital rape does not fall under rape (istighab) in Islam.

However, this is where it gets tricky. Your claim that "marital rape" is not allowed in Islam hinges on the ideas that domestic violence is forbidden.

Okay lets take a closer look at this idea.

the four major Sunni legal schools that “institutionalized” the exegetes’ cosmology by rendering wife-beating a disciplinary means of returning rebellious women to their right place in that cosmology (chapter 3). Not only did these scholars rank women below men, but their discussions demonstrate, in Chaudhry’s view, that they were not concerned for the “welfare, security, or protection” of women (p. 39, where Chaudhry examines reports about a woman who was beaten by her husband in the Prophet’s time, prompting the revelation of Q. 3:34). Chaudhry’s research in “pre-colonial” sources indicates that unlike Hanafi scholars who were primarily concerned with protecting a husband exercising his right to physically discipline his wife, Malikis sought to restrain husbands who might abuse that right. For their part, seeking to reconcile various pieces of evidence on the issue, Shāfiʿī jurists interpreted the imperative wa-ḍribūhunna to be a permission that should be morally avoided rather than a command that must be legally followed. As expected, the approach of Ḥanbalī scholars to the issue was “an amalgamation of the positions of earlier schools” (p. 125). These differences notwithstanding, Chaudhry believes that the case of Q. 4:34 demonstrates that the “Islamic tradition” is not “complex, multivalent, and pluralistic” (p. 7) as is generally assumed, particularly when it deals with issues of gender. In these issues, that tradition is “monolithic, unvaried, and largely unimaginative” (p. 222) because it is based on the same patriarchal cosmology that now hinders the emergence of an egalitarian Islamic cosmology."

Sexual refusal by the wife falls under "disobedience" in Islam. And we know that Islam allows husbands to physically discipline (i.e. beat) their wives for disobedience. The Hanafis allow domestic violence and they are cincerned with protecting the husband from prosecution. The Shafi'is also allow it but discourage it morally. [Hence why Imam Shafi'i says after mentioning the permissibility of beating a rebellious wife in order to discipline her: "If he (the husband) refrains from beating, then this is more beloved to me, as the Prophet sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam said: ‘The best amongst yourselves do not beat their wives.'"] But they allow it neonetheless.

Meanwhile, only the Mailikis are concerned that husbands might "abuse" this right. (And note that even their definition of "abuse" is not the same as our modern one) They hold the husband legally liiabe for his wife's death, but no mention is made of them holding him legally liable for any injuries he causes her, even if they morally forbid it. The Hanbalis are a mix of all three positions just mentioned. Mcphurphy (talk) 03:52, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

The above is original research because the source is not saying any of that in context of marital rape. It seems to be in the context of An-Nisa,_34#to_beat_them_(iḍribūhunna), which is a different matter altogether. Finally, your OR assumptions are sharply contradicted by the numerous sources that say that the act of marital rape (in the normative sense) is prohibited by Islamic scholars though it is classified differently from other forms of rape.VR _talk 08:53, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Also keep in mind the source you cited above both praises, but also criticizes Chaudhry's book:

As pointed out at the outset, Chaudhry begins the book with her own personal experience with Q. 3:34...At times, Chaudhry does not seem able to set aside her personal views on the subject when she is supposed to offer an objective analysis of some medieval and modern views.

VR _talk 09:00, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

@Vice regent: I have provided quotes to back up each sentence in my proposed version. On the other hand, I don't see which source you have provided which claims that Islamic scholars prohibit marital rape. You have actually misrepresented the sources. For example your opening line "Most interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape, but treat it differently than other forms of rape." is nowwhere in the source cited from Noor. Then you have misrepresented Dar al Itfta without mentioning what they define marital rape as. They only prohibit the kind of forced intercourse where the husband uses violence. Then you quote Hina Azam on causing injury to he wife. The same Hina Azam says that coercion in marriage is held to be fundamentally legal. In sum, the Islamic scholars don't see violence/injury as the same as forced intercourse. Studies show that not all forced intercourse result in major injuries to the woman. Overall, you have made the section on marital rape more about domestic violence and not about the fact that Islamic scholars do not prohibit coercion of wives. Mcphurphy (talk) 06:30, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

References

Sources that say Islam prohibits marital rape

So here are the sources that say marital rape, as defined in its normative sense in the English language, is penalized in Islamic law:

• "Marital rape in Islam law is similar to other acts of aggression against a wife where she has the right to ask for divorce and prosecutions. As such, the punishment for marital rape is not similar with the severe punishments for ordinary rape." (Rape: A Problem of Crime Classification in Islamic Law, page 429)
• "If the husband used violence to force his wife to sleep with him, he is legally a sinner and she has the right to go to court and file a complaint against him to get punished." (Does marital rape exist in Islam?, Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah)
• "The world's largest gathering of female Muslim clerics in Indonesia issued a fatwa Thursday that declared marital rape haram—or forbidden—under Islamic law and urged the government to make it illegal."(article from Newsweek))
• "Here the Shariah historically worked differently from modern laws on marital rape, which originated in the 1970s. But the effect is similar: protection. Within marriage, wrongs regarding sex were not conceived of as violations of consent. They were conceived of as harm inflicted on the wife. And in Islamic history wives could and did go to courts to complain and get judges to order husbands to desist and pay damages. So yes, non-consensual sex is wrong and forbidden in Islam. But the operating element to punish marital rape fell under the concept of harm, not non-consent." (Jonathan Brown in this article)
• "Pergas is inclined towards the view of majority Muslim scholars, including contemporary Muslim scholars such as Quraish Shihab, renowned scholar from Indonesia, who does not equate forced sexual intercourse without consent as marital rape. Instead, Quraish Shihab categorizes it as torture rather than rape itself...Instead of repealing marital immunity for rape, Pergas is in support of creating a new offence that criminalizes the act [of marital rape] without penalizing it as rape, such as the practice in Malaysia." (Singapore Islamic Scholars & Religious Teachers Association)

Some sources seem to prohibit marital rape accompanied by genital injury to the wife:

• "Jurists did address injury in the course of sex...The most common injury mentioned is that of perineal tearing, which was criminalized and for which wives could demand monetary compensations for injury." (Sexual Violation in Islamic Law: Substance, Evidence, and Procedure, page 19)
• "“Aggravated rape” applies to a man who forces a woman and tears her vagina, including the possibility that the perpetrator be the victim’s husband in which case, the legal consequences differ from the doctrine examined so far...According to Ibn al-Qasim, had the wife consented to the relationship that ended in the tearing of her vagina, no blood price would be due to her." (RAPE IN MALIKI LEGAL DOCTRINE AND PRACTICE (8TH–15TH CENTURIES C.E.), page 172-173)

Also, this list isn't exhaustive and there's a few other sources that also say marital rape is forbidden, but I'm trying to get access to them, that's why I didn't list them yet.VR _talk 17:25, 25 May 2020 (UTC)Template:Vice regent

@Vice regent: your first source Rape: A Problem of Crime Classification in Islamic Law, page 429 is the personal opinion of the author. How did you take that to mean "Most interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape." This is false representation of the source. Your second source has a caveat. It says if the husband uses violence to force his wife. It doesn't criminalise forcing wife itself. Moreover, you are conveniently skipping over their definition of marital rape which they have in the opening statement. Your third source Jonathan Brown already has his opinion included in my version too, so not much to discuss there. Your fourth source admits that most scholars don't equate forced sexual intercourse with one's wife as marital rape. After that, it goes on to give Quraish Shihab's personal opinion where he categorises it as toture. The best way forward is my version because it included the views of the classical scholars as well as the views of the modern scholars you are citing (Jonathan Brown & Noor) If you want to add the views of the modern female clerics from Indonesia, you can merge that into my version too. Mcphurphy (talk) 23:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: Vice regent's version does not represent the sources properly, it seems. You can't extrapolate "they differentiate between forced and consensual sex" to a prohibition of marital rape. That's WP:OR & WP:SYNTHESIS. Even if you twist their words to mean that "medieval jurists do not penalize husbands for ightisab in marriage, not that they don't penalize husband for sexual assault on his wife." The same source literally says that non-Hanafis don't penalise husbands for forcing sex on their wives. The definition of rape was not relevant there. Opening the links to the sources, I find that Mcphurphy's proposed text is more faithful to the sources they have cited. Vice regent seems to be picking caveats in each source and synthesizing them to make a point that Islam is against marital rape. You have also distorted Noor's opinion to be "most interpretations." One of the sources there actually says dominant interpretations of sharia don't criminalize marital rape.So the article should start with that premise. I also see that Vice regent is making the article more about potential sexual injury arising from marital rape than marital rape itself.Vishnu Sahib (talk) 04:05, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

You can't extrapolate "they differentiate between forced and consensual sex" to a prohibition of marital rape.

Nowhere have I done that, either in my editing or my comments. Can you point out where I did this extrapolation?VR _talk 04:16, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Comparison of Mcphurphy's proposed text with the cited sources

Unlike VR's version, my proposed text is completely faithful to the sources. Readers can compare. I am posting a text-by-text comparison with what the original source says and you can check if my version (in the quote boxes) matches what the source is saying.

The book Islamic Jursprudence According to the Four Sunni Schools reports that "the followers of Imam Abu Hanifah said the right of the sexual pleasure belongs to the man, not the woman, by that it is meant that the man has the right to force the woman to gratify himself sexually."

• The followers of Imam Abu Hanifah said the right of the sexual pleasure belongs to the man, not the woman, by that it is meant that the man has the right to force the woman to gratify himself sexually. (Nancy Roberts, Islamic Jursprudence According to the Four Sunni Schools)

In discusssing the scenarios where a woman is no longer entitled to her husband's financial support, Hanafi texts say that her presence in the husband's home still entitles her to financial maintenance. They treat the wife's disobedience differently to the other traditions. They say that a woman who is still in the husband's home is still entitled to maintenance despite her sexual refusal because the husband can still have sex with her against her will. Abu Hanifa and his students disagreed in case the wife had legitimate grounds for sexual refusal. Abu Hanifa supported a wife's sexual refusal in case her husband had not paid her dowry. However, Abu Yusuf and Muhammad al Shaybani disagreed and said that the husband who has not paid the dowry is still allowed to force her and is not sinful for doing so. Another text reads "is lawful and he sins" which shows a differentiation between the action's legality and morality. However, in case the dowry had been paid there was no questioning of the husbands's right to "have sex with her against her will." They agreed that it was permitted because she is a wrongdoer for refusing the husband. In reporting these views, Al-Khassaf does not even raise the possibility that forced intercourse could be sinful

• Hanafi texts extend the ruling on loss of support for physical absence to also uphold its converse:physical presence in the marital home suffices for support...A wife who remained in her husband's home but refused him sexually retained her claim to maintenance. Sexual refusal did not constitute nushuz, because it did not, in this view, make her sexually unavailable as long as she remained physically resent, he could have sexual access to her even aginst her will. Where the wife had legitimate grounds for sexual refusal, the situation was more complex. Abu Hanifa and his disciples disagreed as to what constituted legitimate grounds and, moreover, what the line was between enforceable rules and ethical guidelines. When a wife refused sex in order to claim an unpaid dower, Abu Hanifa supported her actions even after consummation. In this case, he held that "it is not lawful, and he sins [if he forces her]." According to Abu Yusuf and Muhammad al-Shaybani, who did not grant her the right to withhold herself for nonpayment of dower after consumation, the husband's forcing her "is lawful and he does not sin." A variant manuscript reads, "It is lawful and he sns," making a distinction between the legality and morality of the husband's actions...Still, while forcible intercourse might or might not be sinful if the wife had the moral high ground because of unpaid dower, if an unpaid dower was not at issue then the husband's right "to have sex with her against her will" went unquestioned. In this case, they agreed: "It is lawful, because she is a wrongdoer (zalima)." The wife's reproachable behavior justifies the husband's actions. Al-Khassaf, who reports these views, did not even raise the possibility that forced intercourse in these circumstances might be a sin. (Kecia Ali, Marriage and Slavery in Early Islam)

In discussing the disciplinary procedures a husband has to follow in respect to a disobedient wife, the Hanafi jurist Al-Kasani says that when it comes to the abadonment step the husband can abandon his wife in bed but still have sex with her whenever he wants. This means a wife has to have non-consensual sex. Al-Kasani asserted that marital rape was permissible. Others in the Hanafi school such as Ibn Nujaym also held marital rape to be acceptable conduct for a husband. Ibn Nujaym states that a woman is entitled to maintenance as long as she is the husband's house because he can force her to have sex. Another scholar, al-Nasafi added that since soundness is not a wife's soundness is not a condition for having sex with her the husband wil not be liable if she dies due to the intercourse. Al-Nasafi understood this to be the position of Imam Abu Hanifa.

• The prescription for abadonment resulted in the same paradox for Hanafi jurists as it did for several exegetes: sexual abandonment caused husbands to suffer unjustly, since they did not deserve to lose their sexual rights because of the wives' nushuz. Al-Kasani offered three solutions to the problem:a husband could abandon his wife verbally rather than sexually...or he could abandon the marital bed but nevertheless have sex with his wofe when he desired her, rather than when she desired him. This ensured that the husand would continue to enjoy his sexual rights while denying a woman her rights; ater all, disciplinary action was meant to discipline a wife and not deny a husband his sdxual rights. The last solution offerdd by Al-Kasani is especially disturbing, since it forces a wife to engage in non-consensual sex. If a wife's nushuz consisted of her sexual refusal, then her husband could have sex with her against her will. According to al-Kasani, marital rae was legally permissible. Marital rape was also regarded as acceptable husbandly conduct by others in the Hanafi legal school. For example Ibn Nujaym argued that as long as wife remains in her husbans's house, she is owed maintenance, even if she is disobedient and withholds sex. This is because as ling as she remains in his house, a husband can dominate her, forcing her to have sex with him. Like al-Kasani, Ibn Nujaym was comfortable with marital rape, seeing it as a natural consequence of a wife's sexual disobedience. Al-Nasafi added an undeniable shade of violence to his discussion on marital rape. While he argued that a necessary condition of hitting one's wife is to leave her intact or sound, soundness is not a cindition for sex. so if a wife dies while her husband is having sex with her, he is not liable. Al-Nasadi understood this to be Abu Hanifa's position, who argued that sexual intercourse-unlike disciplinary beating-was not restricted by the condition of soundness. (Ayesha Chaudhry, Domestic Violence and the Islamic Tradition)

The non-Hanafis neither expressly sanction marital rape, unlike al-Khassaf, nor do they penalise husbands for it.

• The silence of the Hanafis can be explained easily: a wife's sexual refusal is irrelevant if not accompanied by her deartre from the conjugal hime, because the hsband is permitted to have sex with her without her consent. Non-Hanafis do not penalize a husband for forcing sex on his wife, but neither do they explicitly authorize it in the way that al-Khassaf does. For all, marital rape is an oxymoron; rape (ightisab) is a property crime that by definition cannot be committed by a husband. (Kecia Ali, Marriage and Slavery in Early Islam)

The sum of Islamic judicial opinions from the four Sunni law schools is that rape under Islamic law means "Forcible illegal sexual intercourse by a man with a woman who is not legally married to him, without her free will and consent."

• From these judicial opinions, rape can be defined in Islamic law as: "Forcible illegal sexual intercourse by a man with a woman wis not legally married to him, without her free will and consent". (Rape: A Problem of Crime Classification in Islamic Law, p. 429)

Most interpretations of Islamic law do not criminalize marital rape.

• Thus, marital rape is literally uncriminalizable under doinant interpretations of the sharia. (Ayesha Chaudhry, Domestic Violence and the Islamic Tradition)

Kecia Ali states that jurists rarely discuss this issue but forced sex with a wife might be an "ethical infraction" and if it involves physical violence it could "conceivably" even be a legal infraction. However, in the conceptual world of the jurists rape is a property crime which "by definition cannot be committed by a husband or owner, who possesses an entitlement to, or ownership over, his wife’s or slave’s sexual capacity."

• Though seldom discussed, forced sex with one’s wife might (or, depending on the circumstances, might not) be an ethical infraction, and conceivably even a legal one like assault if physical violence is involved...This scenario is never, however, illicit in the jurists’ conceptual world. Nonconsensual sex—what contemporary Westerners would term rape—might be either a coercive subset of zina, with blame lifted from the coerced participant, or a at type of usurpation (ightisab ), a property crime that by definition cannot be committed by a husband or owner, who possesses an entitlement to, or ownership over, his wife’s or slave’s sexual capacity. (Kecia Ali, Concubinage and Consent)

Hina Azam puts it in other words as "coercion within marriage or concubinage may be repugnant, but it remained fundamentally legal."

• Put another way: Coercion within marriage or concubinage might be repugnant, but it remained fundamentally legal. (Hina Azam, Sexual Violation in Islamic Law: Substance, Evidence, and Procedure)

According to A.M. Noor the punishment for marital rape is not similar to the strict punishment for ordinary rape. In his view it is treated as an act of domestic violence which entitles her to seek divorce and prosecution

• Marital rape in Islam law is similar to other acts of aggression against a wife where she has the right to ask for divorce and prosecutions. As such, the punishment for marital rape is not similar with the severe punishments for ordinary rape. (Rape: A Problem of Crime Classification in Islamic Law, p. 429)

Similarly, according to Georgetown University professor Jonathan A.C. Brown sexual abuse within marriage was conceptualized as harm inflicted on the wife rather than violation of consent. According to Brown, the historical record shows that women were able to go to court and force their husbands to desist and pay damages in such cases.

• Here the Shariah historically worked differently from modern laws on marital rape, which originated in the 1970s. But the effect is similar: protection. Within marriage, wrongs regarding sex were not conceived of as violations of consent. They were conceived of as harm inflicted on the wife. And in Islamic history wives could and did go to courts to complain and get judges to order husbands to desist and pay damages. So yes, non-consensual sex is wrong and forbidden in Islam. But the operating element to punish marital rape fell under the concept of harm, not non-consent (Jonathan Brown)

According to Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah the Islamic scholars define marital rape to be when a man asks his wife to have sex during her menstrual period or in an abnormal way. If a husband uses violence to compel his wife to have sex, Dar al-Ifta holds it to be a sin and states that a wife can complain against him in court and have him punished.

• Islamic scholars describe that marital rape occurs when the man asks his wife to have sexual intercourse during her menstrual period or in an abnormal sexual position or during fasting hours in Ramadan...If the husband used violence to force his wife to sleep with him, he is legally a sinner and she has the right to go to court and file a complaint against him to get punished. The woman also has the right to refuse to engage in sexual relationship with her husband if he has a contagious disease or use violence which hurts her body during the sexual intercourse. (Dar al-Ifta)

Ayesha Chaudhary claims that although some traditional scholars prohibit marital rape, other traditional scholars offer room to allow it even while discouraging it. For example Ibn Adam says that a husband cannot force his wife to have sex if she has a legitimate reason to refuse. This leaves room for a husband to rape his wife if she does not have a legitimate reason to refuse. However, Ibn Adam still discourages it.

• While some traditionalist scholars categorically prohibit marital rape, others leave some room for its possibility, even while voicing strong discouragement. Ibn Adam has written that a husband cannot force himself on his wife if she has a legitimate reason for not having sex, which leaves open the possibility of raping a woman if she refuses her husband without a reasonable cause. He makes interesting use of a prophetic report to discourage husbands from raping their wives. (Ayesha Chaudhry, Domestic Violence and the Islamic Tradition)

However, Islamic jurists say that wives cannot force their husbands to have sex with them. They assert that while women have sexual rights over their husbands, those rights are legally unenforceable. This jurists explain that this is because sex is a man's right and not his duty.

• Traditional Muslim jurists discuss a woman’s right to sexual activity within marriage, but her rights to sexual access to her husband (and even to non-sexual companionship) are virtually unenforceable. Indeed, these jurists think of sex as “the husband’s right and not his duty,” so it makes little sense to compel him to do it. Thus, a Muslim wife’s right to sexual pleasure, though morally acknowledged in the scripture and literature, is legally meaningless. (Asifa Quraishi-Landes "A Meditation on Mahr, Modernity, and Muslim Marriage Contract Law".) Mcphurphy (talk) 23:37, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

In most of the above sources, you selectively quote the sources and deliberately exclude sentences in the same paragraph that contradict what you say. I've refuted most of this above already, some of it at least two times. I'm tired of repeating myself. Here's yet another example:

You quote Hina Azam,

Put another way: Coercion within marriage or concubinage might be repugnant, but it remained fundamentally legal.

But literally a few sentences before Hina Azam says:

Human approval or disapproval - that is, the consent or nonconsent of the parties involved - was legally significant , but the will of humans was of secondary importance compared with the will of God.

So the will of the wife is legally significant, though not as significant as the will of God. Yet, your wording distorts that by quoting this out of context. Another thing is that on page 19 of Sexual Violation in Islamic Law: Substance, Evidence, and Procedure Hina Azam clearly says that marital rape accompanied by injury is punishable by Islamic law. Again, your version omits that. This is what's really problematic by your version. I have already explained why you have misquoted the views of Kecia Ali, Ayesha Chaudhry, A M Noor and Dar al-Ifta above.VR _talk 04:14, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

You have not refuted anything. The full passage from Hina Azam reads:

Human approval or disapproval - that is, the consent or nonconsent of the parties involved - was legally significant , but the will of humans was of secondary importance compared with the will of God. This primacy of divine over human volition had important ramifications for the legal construction of sexual violence. It meant that only after the moral classificaton of a sex act had been determined-that is, its licitness or illicitness - did human volition - in our case, that of the female party - became legally meaningful. Put another way: Coercion within marriage or concubinage might be repugnant, but it remained fundamentally legal. Conversely, an illicit relationship of zina was always sinful, even if the parties were consenting.

In other words she is saying the law first looks at whether the sex was licit or not (i.e. was it zina or not). Only if its zina did the women's consent become relevant (because a woman who is forced into zina is not considered guilty). Conversely, coerced sex within marriage is legal. I agree with Vishnu sahib. Your strategy is to select caveats from each source and build content by combining all the caveats. Mcphurphy (talk) 04:32, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion to all, I'm not expert on the subject, I noticed that Ibn Adam has been quoted in the discussion above via Ayesha Chaudhary. Ibn Adam is none but Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari. It'll be relevant to consult his book Islamic Guide to Sexual Relations as well. It may help. Reading parts of the discussion, I agree with Vice regent. Best. - Aaqib Anjum Aafī (^talk) 07:40, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Please respect the DR process

This article has been relatively stable since May 25. The dispute has been filed at Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Rape_in_Islamic_law and is awaiting further help from a volunteer. At the same time Mcphurphy has not made any edits to the Talk page here since May 26. So it is unhelpful for Mcphurphy to just revert out of the blue a WP:STATUSQUO version that has been there for nearly 1.5 months now. And that too, without any sort of discussion. Lets not go back to reverting and lets wait for the dispute resolution process to complete.VR _talk 09:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Are you serious? I told you on 20 May that this page had been stable for more than a month[9] and you still reverted the article. So why the opposite action with the same argument now? It was your own idea that this[10] was the last stable version. So I restored that in my last revert. Mcphurphy (talk) 01:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

We are going to be keeping the pre-dispute version till we get anywhere. Mcphurphy (talk) 03:11, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

No we're going to keep the long-standing version till there is consensus to change it. Also reverts in the middle of discussion are very unhelpful.VR _talk 15:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello. I'd be willing to help with DR if you're willing to examine the dispute point by point at a slower pace. Unfortunately, I don't have the bandwidth to take active part in fast-moving discussions these days. What kind of help are you looking for, specifically? WP:3O? Eperoton (talk) 00:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

@Eperoton: Here is my proposed version for the marital rape section.[11] I have also presented quotes from each source I have cited for each sentence in my proposed version, here.[12] You can go through them and check if I have faithfully represented the sources.

The version which VR currently has on the article suffers from source misrepresentations, WP:OR and synthesis. I have six causes of difference with VR.

1. There are structural biases in Vice regent's version which don't allow for NPOV coverage of the topic. It gives emphasis to the minority viewpoints that marital rape is a crime in Islam. Yet the sources say that "marital rape is literally uncriminalizable under dominant interpretations of the sharia."[13] Surely the section should emphasise and start with the dominant viewpoints per WP:DUE.

2. There is also the problem with source misrepresentations. For example, in Vice regent's version the opening line (cited to Azam Noor's article in the Arab Quarterly) says that "Most interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape, but treat it differently than other forms of rape."

But that is not what the source said at all. It says (after describing what the definition of rape is in each classical Islamic school of jurisprudence) "From these judicial opinions, rape can be defined in Islamic law as: "Forcible illegal sexual intercourse by a man with a woman who is not legally married to him, without her free will and consent"."

After that in a footnote, the author expresses his personal opinion (and not that of the classical jurists) that marital rape is classified as "domestic violence." Yet Vice regent has extrapolated and synthesised that to mean "most interpretations of Islamic law prohibit marital rape, but treat it differently than other forms of rape."

3. Another problem with Vice regent's version is that it says that "certain" Hanafi jurists allow marital rape, when no such qualification is used in the sources. The multiple sources which have been provided are quite categorical that the Hanafi scholars allow forced sex with wife, without indicating any sort of internal difference of opinion among the Hanafi jurists. Vice regent's version makes this look like the opinion of only some Hanafi jurists.

4. Another issue is over the text on what the non-Hanafi jurists say. My proposed version reads "The non-Hanafis neither expressly sanction marital rape, unlike al-Khassaf, nor do they penalise husbands for it." This is backed by the source here [14]

However, Vice regent keeps on insisting that these jurists still penalise husbands for forced sex even though the source explicitly says otherwise. VR's argument is that the source is saying that the jurists define rape as a "property crime" which by definition cannot be committed by a husband. This is true. But then Vice regent synthesises and insists that the jurists still criminalise it under different classifications (i.e. domestic violence). Yet the source quite clearly states that the non-Hanafis do not penalise a husband for forced sex with his wife. This obviously means that the classification of a man's forced sex with wife as either "marital rape" or "domestic violence" is irrelevant for the jurists. If they held it to be domestic violence they would have still penalised it. The source says they did not.

Vice Regent here insists on following a different methodology by synthesising this with the Azam Noor source to say that forced sex with wife is still penalised under the classification of domestic violence. But we should describe what each individual sources says and not synthesise them to reach a personally favoured conclusion.

5. There is also an issue of cherry picking from sources. For example, Vice Regent quotes Hina Azam as saying that perineal tearing is criminalised in Islamic law yet ignores the same Hina Azam source when it says that coercion within marriage is still "fundamentally legal."[15] Another aspect that Vice regent is ignoring is that the academics differentiate between forced sex involving physical violence, which may be considered a legal infraction by the classical jurists, from other forced sex.[16]

Though seldom discussed, forced sex with one’s wife might (or, depending on the circumstances, might not) be an ethical infraction, and conceivably even a legal one like assault if physical violence is involved...This scenario is never, however, illicit in the jurists’ conceptual world. Nonconsensual sex—what contemporary Westerners would term rape—might be either a coercive subset of zina, with blame lifted from the coerced participant, or a at type of usurpation (ightisab ), a property crime that by definition cannot be committed by a husband or owner, who possesses an entitlement to, or ownership over, his wife’s or slave’s sexual capacity. (Kecia Ali, Concubinage and Consent, pp. 149-150)

6. Vice regent also is not allowing the inclusion of the views of Hanafi jurists such as al-Nasafi (mentioned by the academic Ayesha Chaudhry)[17] which do not hold a man liable for the death of his wife resulting from forced intercourse.

• @Eperoton:, thank you for looking into this! Going slow is a good idea. Mcphurphy's 6 points above seem to be what they wrote earlier. I responded to that here. The general issue seems to be that Mcphurphy is misrepresenting sources, most sources that Mcphurphy cites give a qualification or clarification in the same paragraph or page or footnote that Mcphurphy ignores. Mcphurphy is also not understanding certain nuances in Islam and Islamic law. As a high-level summary, rape in Islamic courts is typically prosecuted as ightisab. I have never come across a source that considers "marital rape" to be a form of ightisab - and this indeed what the sources that Mcphurphy cites say. Yet, scholars have found ways to penalize rape under different categories: some Islamic scholars say it can be prosecuted as an "act of aggression against a wife", Quraish Shihab and other scholars say marital rape can be prosecuted as a form of "torture", Jonathan Brown says it can be conceived as "harm inflicted on the wife". Other sources say that while many jurists remained silent on marital rape, they advocated prosecuting any injury caused by marital rape (this and this). Then there are sources that say marital rape is prohibited and should have legal consequences, but don't specify what (this and this).VR _talk 17:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I have already answered this in point 4. The source clearly says that jurists do not penalise husbands for forcing sex on their wives. Thus, the classification of forced sex as istighab (property crime) or domestic violence is irrelevant. VR is synthesisising when they say "Yet, scholars have found ways to penalize rape under different categories." VR is taking opinions of various modern writers and scholars and mixing those up with the positions of the classical jurists. My version takes great care to separate the modern writers from classical ones. Mcphurphy (talk) 21:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Prof. Jonathan Brown is clearly not talking about just modern scholars, both here and in the Domestic violence article. Also, I should point out that it is T-minus a few days before this talkpage will likely become an unreadable mess. Starting with McMurphy, summons have been sent out to supporting editors and VR has done so as well. 119.152.137.241 (talk) 22:03, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

The "do not penalise" statement is made in the context of ightisab. Read the very next sentence and you will see. I agree that jurists do not penalie marital rape under ightisab.VR _talk 14:33, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello again. It looks like this discussion now has more than 2 editors, so, by definition, there are already too many participants for me to provide a WP:3O. Let me make a couple of procedural recommendations:

• It's difficult for me to contribute to the above also because we have a mix of point-by-point arguments and general arguments. Mcphurphy seems to be pursuing a point-by-point discussion, which I think is a good idea. To make things easier I would recommend making separate sections for different points, and making incremental edits, representing those separate points, regardless of which version is taken as the starting point (this can be an intractable point of dispute that stands in the way of content improvements, and whoever finds a constructive way to avoid it gets WP Brownie points :)).
• For a complicated and controversial subject like this, I would recommend worrying less about making broad generalizations, at least at this juncture, and more about representing the richness and complexity of the debate in detail. Modern scholar A wrote this, modern scholar B wrote that, etc. We don't have to attribute the views if there is no disagreement among the sources. Also, "[quantifier] of [madhhab] jurists held that", etc, being careful about the quantifiers (most, some, etc). I've once tried to do a fairly thorough form of the latter exercise for another topic (Crucifixion#In_Islam) and discovered that different "authoritative" sources differed widely on these details; per NPOV, we should reflect that variety. If there are disputes about representing the sources accurately, we can use quotes in the article body, and I would recommend including relevant quotes in the ref with "quote=" in any case. That makes it much easier for an uninvolved editor to judge whether the passage is well sourced.
• We should be very careful about mixing up traditional Islamic legal notions (ightisab, zina, darar, etc) and modern notions (marital rape, domestic violence). When sources make those connections, we should reflect them accurately, but try hard not to make those connections ourselves.
• Jonathan Brown expanded his view on this topic in his book. As I recall, he does not present it as a modern opinion. He discusses traditional legal views and pre-modern court practice. He also is fairly clear that it is not a perspective that is shared widely among his peers, though he is a prominent scholar and his view merits to be reflected in more detail, based on the book.

Hopefully, this helps to move things in the right direction. Eperoton (talk) 23:51, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for that, it helps! I have engaged in point by point discussion. I didn't go it immediately above, but I can go back to that. I'm not completely sure about inclusion of quotes in the body. For example, many of the discussions on marital rape span multiple pages in some books. I'm not sure if we can post multiple pages of a book per Wikipedia:NFCCP) and if we did this with every source, we'd end up with a WP:quotefarm. But I do agree with including the quotes in references and footnotes. Agree with your points on Jonathan Brown too.VR _talk 19:53, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

We certainly don't want to quote whole pages of text, but I'd be surprised if we would need to. I would expect that article content wouldn't be much longer than the source content it's based on, and there's no need to quote when there's no dispute about the source being reflected accurately. On the other hand, if we're using one sentence to summarize multiple pages of text, and the source doesn't contain a similarly concise summary, I would double-check for WP:SYNTH. Sometimes we can come up with highly condensed summaries of sources, but I would be extra cautious for a complex and controversial subject like this. Eperoton (talk) 00:35, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Eperoton's idea. I think my proposed version already does that but I am happy to start from scratch with VR. We could also consider splitting the section into "interpretations which support marital rape" and "interpretations which oppose marital rape." There is already precedent for this on the Islam and domestic violence article.[18] Mcphurphy (talk) 09:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I think that "interpretations which support marital rape" is WP:OR especially since many of the sources that Mcphurphy quotes say mixed things. For example, Mcphurphy quotes Ayesha Chaudhry who says: "Kecia Ali notes that “marital rape is an oxymoron; rape (ightisab) is a property crime that by definition can't be committed by the husband. Still, they do make a distinction between forced and consensual sex within marriage...Thus marital rape is literally uncriminalizable under dominant interpretations of the sharia. Yet the same author then says While some traditionalist scholars categorically prohibit marital rape, others leave some room for its possibility, even while voicing strong discouragement. (page 150) Such a position can hardly be neatly categorized under "interpretations which support marital rape" and "interpretations which oppose marital rape." At issue here is whether marital rape is prohibited or strongly discouraged (Chaudhry seems to say "yes" to that) and whether it can be punished in courts under the crime of ightisab (Chaudhry says "no" to that).VR _talk 15:15, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The sources I provided quite categorically say there is no penalty for husbands who force sex on their wives. The classification under ightisab or anything else is irrelevant. Mcphurphy (talk) 03:11, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Did you read the quotes I provided above? They are directly from the book and you can go back and verify.VR _talk 16:13, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

This is more of a broad general concern but I don't really believe that Mcmurphy's edits capture the "the richness and complexity of the debate in detail" or as Ayesha Chaudhry puts it "the spirited and diverse, and at times contradictory, readings". I don't think he even would agree with the statement than any such complexity exists and simply roots for the presentation of the views of Islamic scholarship as static, medieval and unchanging (a few belated, halfhearted and unsuccessful modern attempts to reform it notwithstanding).

Though it should not be extensive the section should also provide some background to the issue before jumping straight to a discussion about scholarly views without any context. Eperoton's edits in Crucifixion in Islam are a good example. Something along the lines of: "Historically, in much of the world, rape was seen as a crime or tort of theft of a man's property (usually either a husband or father). In this case, property damage meant that the crime was not legally recognized as damaging to the victim, but instead to her father or husband's property. Therefore, by definition a husband could not rape his wife."

Islam and domestic violence is not really a good precedent as the sections there about the "interpretations" are actually pretty conflicted and also because Marital rape is actually not the main topic of the article here. Should there be separate sections for interpretations for the allowance of abortion or even the allowance for rape in general? 119.155.54.53 (talk) 18:09, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I definitely agree with "the spirited and diverse, and at times contradictory, readings". Both Kecia Ali and Ayesha Chaudhry quote the sources as saying seemingly opposite things on different pages. That's why I think that if we put in quotes, we would have to put in the entire discussion. Its probably preferenble to paraphrase, though we can't seem to agree on wording.VR _talk 16:13, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with User:Mcphurphy on this matter. A quick look at User:Vice regent edits indicates that he has a bias in regards to Islam related topics. Regards Balolay (talk) 11:28, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Grufo seems to have restored the edits of Balolay who has been indefinitely blocked. Before restoring those edits, please explain they are justified and obtain consensus per WP:BRD. I'm reverting them for now.VR _talk 17:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I will not go into details, because discussing with Vice regent is exhausting and I do not have the time now. However I have tried to limit Vice regent's damage in the last days, specifically the more destructive edits (his removal of sources or entire paragraphs) or the more apologetic ones. There is an ongoing dispute about our recent disagreements. Personally I believe that Vice regent is driven by an ideological wish to silence both mainstream or influential Islamic interpretations and the more anti-Islamic sources in order to push his own minority views. Whether I am right about his bias or not can be judged by having a look at our recent edits (mine and Vice regent's). For now I will stop here. I believe however that since there is a ongoing discussion participated by more than two editors in this talk page no action should be taken until an agreement is found, so I will revert the page to the point where it was when this discussion began. --Grufo (talk) 18:06, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

References

NPOV, again, especially in marital rape section

This article documents (or should document) information regarding an important women's rights and human rights issue. I'm deeply offended that some editors are trying to whitewash this article and remove negative information, a POV-pushing tactic that has plagued nearly every topic on Wikipedia. The majority of Islamic jurists do not recognise marital rape as rape. This is an accurate statement, and I'm not sure why this was changed. This is why very, very few Muslim-majority countries have criminalised marital rape. Of course, not all Islamic jurists hold the same view. So as is Wikipedia's purpose, let's please present all relevant viewpoints, and let's not whitewash the facts. I may try to edit this article again, but to be honest, dealing with this kind of POV-pushing has been very discouraging, to say the least. If the editors here come to an agreement about what to put in the article, I desperately hope that it includes all the facts. Thank you. GrammarDamner how are things? 21:41, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

GrammerDamner, if this is your idea of NPOV, [19], I'm not sure what to say. You have continuously defended the indisputable, POV, badfaith edits of a banned user and resisted their removal on multiple occasions [20]. It is rather clear to me where the POV pushing is coming from. Dealing with it has been no less discouraging for me either, especially when dealing with dishonest tactics. I too hope that all editors here will come to an agreement about what to put in the article including all the facts without any propaganda. 119.152.137.241 (talk) 21:54, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I disagree that those were badfaith edits. Assuming you are that dynamic IP user from before, you, however, defended the personal attacks and the blatant misrepresentation of sources by an editor who has been the subject of countless disputes with countless editors for his disruptive editing and personal attacks. Again, I'm not trying to remove any relevant information. I believe each article should document all viewpoints. GrammarDamner how are things? 22:13, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure which IP you're talking about. I have not interacted with you much before although the Al-Nisa edit is mine. I am not the IP on "Muhammad in the Quran" talkpage. Also how are Koreangauteng's edits not in bad faith? He's a sockpuppeting editor with many accounts who's been ban evading and POV pushing for a very long time now. He was well aware of WP but still edited disruptively or used unreliable sources. Earlier it was assumed this was due to him being a new user but this was not the case as he had been editing for many years now. Please look up his history up on the archives [21]. Am I supposed to believe his edits were in good faith?

The issue with SharabSalaam is different. I've noted that he certainly had attitude issues though I've not interacted with him much either. If he was being as dishonest or violating WP rules as clearly as Koreangauteng was by sockpuppeting, he should have been banned or blocked. You even filed a report against him here [22] (Note, I was not involved in the discussion, my IP has cycling changes but never started with 86.134.) but it did not go anywhere and the accusation of COI by the sock master was way out of league and pointed out by an admin. This background is relevant to the discussion on these articles but let's focus on the topic. I agree that each article should document all viewpoints but that is also the issue here. Many viewpoints not belonging to a certain POV are presented persuasively or are simply omitted. I'd provide evidence but that would lead to a discussion about other articles. I've yet to closely examine the sources on this particular article. 119.152.137.241 (talk) 22:53, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

To the IP editor, I'm sorry if I misattributed someone else's edits to you. It was an assumption based on the diffs you posted, and it can be difficult when IP editors engage in these discussions. I mean you no disrespect, but it's just hard to know who one is dealing with sometimes. As for that diff you posted, I do not feel that it is a badfaith edit to put a link to a relevant article in the "See also" section. As I've said, these are very important women's rights and human rights issues, and I'm deeply offended by all of the whitewashing in all areas of Wikipedia, not just here. I'm very glad that you agree that the article should document all viewpoints and that we should focus on the topic. Thank you very much. GrammarDamner how are things? 13:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you GrammarDamner. I should also make a very important clarification that I do not mean to imply any guilt by association and do not believe that you were acting in bad faith by supporting Koreangauteng. As for the diff, do you support adding violence in the Quran links to around a dozen Surah articles as Koreangauteng did? If so we could also add "see also" Jesus in the Quran, Adam in the Quran, etc etc to dozens of Surah articles. I made this point here (this is me) but got no response. [23]

I'm also offended by some of the brazen comments of certain editors. For instance see the first few talkpage editor comments here who demand that there be a "Rape of unbelievers" section or something along those lines. Should that be added, and would that be NPOV? Though I don't doubt your concerns, I do have a hard time believing that some of these statements are made out of a moral high ground concern for human rights.

I generally agree with Eperoton's recommendations both here as well as on other articles on slavery like here [24]. The pendulum swings both ways on the NPOV issue and I've noted that many experienced editors simply avoid editing on controversial issues which only makes things worse. If this dispute isn't resolved amicably I think the entire article could benefit from the template currently added only to the abortion section. 119.152.137.241 (talk) 16:45, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

GrammarDamner's edit brought up by IP (calling for the restoration of this) are definitely against WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:RS. For example answeringmuslims.com is not a reliable source. But people evolve and I think we should WP:Assume Good Faith.VR _talk 14:31, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

There is clear whitewashing campaign going on in the article by User:Vice regent. There is hardly any mention of Islam's recognition of sexual slavery and marital rape section is presented in a very biased manner. Balolay (talk) 11:34, 16 July 2020 (UTC)_{banned user}

@GrammerDamner: I am very concerned at why the content which has no consensus is still here. Only Vice regent seems to be in favour of it. I am going to restore this article to the pre-dispute version. Mcphurphy (talk) 01:57, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm here too, and I re-added my tweaks of Brown's comments which were not disputed. He's a reliable source too and I see no reason why his views should be specifically attributed when other scholarly views are not. 39.37.185.244 (talk) 09:19, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:NOR

This looks like WP:OR. I took a look at some of the sources and they don't seem to be talking about Islam legitimizing rape. If anyone disagrees, please provide the exact quotes below.VR _talk 14:14, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@Vice regent:

I agree. One of the sources [25] directly contradicts the statement. On pages 245-246, it says "Even though, the destiny of a slave girl was in the hand of her master, she had some protection. For instance, no one could attack or rape her." Joelaroche (talk) 09:16, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Good catch. Lets remove this for now until it can be shown that sources indeed says what they are purported to say.VR _talk 15:36, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

"No one" refers to no one but her master, as it is clear from the examples that follow (“In case she was raped, Mälik said ‘her master received an amount equivalent to her loss in value’”). --Grufo (talk) 10:53, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Grufo I'm leaving the article as it is for now, but removing the OR you added about Quran 2:223 which is not found in the Dar-alIfta source. You have been directly warned about such additions before. 39.37.163.88 (talk) 08:23, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed it is not found in Dar-alIfta, but it is found in Quran 2:223, which is the source the article talks about in that point. So no, your revert makes no sense. And “me been warned” is you who keep “warning” me every time you don't like something I write. --Grufo (talk) 13:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Grufo, it's not about the Quran verse which I left in. It's about making value judgments and interpretive statements about the Quran that only secondary sources can do. You've been told this before by Eperoton. Take a step back and reflect for a moment. I'm the one sensing some rage here now. 39.37.135.0 (talk) 17:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

(←) None of the sources added by Grufo mention rape and they do not support the sentence Grufo is trying to add. I read the quotes Grufo added along with the sources. If Grufo disagrees, then please quote the sources below. I'm removing the disputed content for now. Please obtain consensus before restoring.VR _talk 17:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Once, I'm asking Grufo to justify the content and sources added here. I read the quotes in question from Pernilla Myrne and Salma Suad, and they don't talk about rape at all. I also followed the google books link and again, no mention of rape. Grufo keeps restoring content added by an indef blocked user without justifying it. The last comment by Grufo on this page was I will not go into details, because discussing with Vice regent is exhausting and I do not have the time now..VR _talk 18:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I guess you want to know how the sources are summarised into the Wikipedia sentence “it allows men …”. Pernilla Myrne formulates it as “Enslaved women could be used for sexual service”, while Salma Suad formulates it as “Their owners had the right to have sexual intercourse with them”. --Grufo (talk) 00:40, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Grufo neither of them says anything about "rape". Why do you think this material belongs in this article?VR _talk 01:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• This edit was first inserted by User:Balolay, who has since been indefinitely blocked for a variety of reasons. In fact, the user was found using sockpuppets just two days ago. It was later found that the material added did not conform to the sources. Additionally, it is strange to have this material in the lead since it is not covered in the body anywhere. So I'm removing this material. If anyone wants to restore it, then this should be discussed before adding to the article per WP:BRD.VR _talk 20:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
  • The opening disputed sentence about sex slaves which was re added by Grufo without consensus should be removed. Not only is it undue, but more importantly, none of the sources support the statement by using the term consent and rape and this seems to a sysnthesized claim. Suad Salma in particular is clearly talking about the legality and permissibly of the relationships in relation to adultry rather than rape. The points in the source (a through to g) make this clear as does the preceeding sentence which compares the institution of concubinage with marriage ("Islam allowed cohabitation with slave women along side normal marriage"). In any case, as pointed out by Eperoton:

• • "We should be very careful about mixing up traditional Islamic legal notions (ightisab, zina, darar, etc) and modern notions (marital rape, domestic violence). When sources make those connections, we should reflect them accurately, but try hard not to make those connections ourselves." 119.152.128.94 (talk) 22:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

List of rapes committed by Muslims

This article is not a dumping ground for list of rape committed by Muslims throughout history. Edits like these are not appropriate.VR _talk 05:37, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Fresh start

It seems that there are several (relatively unrelated) disputes here and several editors (including me) have been reverting the page to previous versions, despite some constructive work had been made in the meanwhile. I propose that we restart from this version of the page containing all the disputed passages (I presume?), so that we can list here (again, but concisely) what we think is problematic and what not. Pinging participants since July 2020 Balolay, GrammarDamner, Mcphurphy, Vice regent, Eperoton (I hope I did not forget anyone, and if I did, please ping them too) --Grufo (talk) 12:50, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Grufo, I don't understand why you are restoring duplicate content?VR _talk 13:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, its rather rich of you to insist your own version as a starting point. Why not say, start from this version last edited by Eperoton. Also, you didn't ping Joelaroche who opposed Balolay's insertions that you restored.VR _talk 13:15, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I have reverted your edit exactly to discuss about it here, as stated in the edit summary (“Vice regent, I just opened a discussion. Please state there what you disagree with before take any action.)”). As for the duplicate content, it looks you are right (removed it now). I believe the version I restored is the longest. Eperoton's version does not contain many later interventions. --Grufo (talk) 13:30, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

More original research

Grufo added

Quran 2:223, which although defines the man's wives as his own personal "tilth" and allows him to approach them "when or how [he] will",

This reads like original research where Grufo is trying to interpret the Qur'an for himself. If you want to quote the verse then quote, but don't try to insert your own interpretations.VR _talk 13:45, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

As I already said before, a quotation (whether direct or indirect, full or partial) is not an interpretation. May I ask you, if you really think I added my own personal interpretation, what would it consist of? --Grufo (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

The above is definitely an interpretation by virtue of the fact that those words don't appear in any translation of the Quran. According to WP:RSPSCRIPTURE even summarizing the scripture needs to be cited to "scholarly sources".VR _talk 18:10, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Which words? --Grufo (talk) 18:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

"defines the man's wives as his own personal", "allows him to approach them".VR _talk 19:30, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

WP:RSPSCRIPTURE states “Content that interprets or summarizes scriptural passages or narratives should generally be cited to appropriate scholarly sources (for example, in the academic field of religious studies) and attributed when appropriate”. I believe that a reference is not appropriate in this case, as it is not an interpretation and not even a summarization (it is exactly as long), but only a grammatical rendering of a direct speech to a third person discourse. --Grufo (talk) 20:18, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Your assertion that the Qur'an "defines the man's wives as his own personal 'tilth'" is WP:Original research. Unless you can find a reliable source, it has no place on wikipedia.VR _talk 20:23, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree about it being an interpretation or OR. --Grufo (talk) 20:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

What's your source for it? The Qur'an itself? VR _talk 20:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

As already discussed elsewhere, the Quran can perfectly be the source of a quotation, and indeed the text above is a mixture of indirect and direct quotation (i.e., not an interpretation and not a summarization). But even if I had gone further and I had done a summarization, as per WP:RSPSCRIPTURE a reference would be needed only “when appropriate”. --Grufo (talk) 20:48, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

"Analysis of scriptural content by Wikipedia editors is prohibited by the Wikipedia policy regarding original research." 39.37.128.59 (talk) 02:14, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Your comments (including statements like "although X, though Y") are quite undisputedly an analysis. 39.37.128.59 (talk) 02:14, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It is an indirect quotation (which per se requires some textual analysis – not a scriptural analysis). It might be disputable whether it is a summarization instead (which per se needs requires some textual analysis – not a scriptural analysis). In both cases it is definitely not a scriptural analysis. Please stop your revert war or I will be forced to protect the page. I invite you to create a Wikipedia account. --Grufo (talk) 02:28, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

That's not true, but in any case I'd advise you hold off on editwarring until you can find someone who agrees with you. Infact, adding an OR tag is a compromise measure when the OR really should be removed. You've been warned about this before and we can call Eperoton again if need be. 39.37.128.59 (talk) 02:36, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

The “compromise measure” is to keep the page as it was before the dispute began, as per Wikipedia policy. I invite you again to create a Wikipedia account. --Grufo (talk) 03:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It is indeed rich that you consider your own very recent version to be the "pre-dispute" one when the dispute began long before your edits. That would be either Eperoton or VR or even Mcphurphy's(!). Plus, editwarring is not vandlalism, the three RR involves more than 3 reverts and the one who has broken it is... I'd create an account but I don't want you following me like VR. May do so in the future. 39.37.128.59 (talk) 04:12, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Grufo, you really ought to let the OR tag stay until this discussion is over. Honestly, your OR shouldn't be in the article in the first place. Putting a tag was a reasonable compromise. You're edit warring to remove a tag? VR _talk 00:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I did not not agree exactly about you insisting to tag a quotation as “Original research” (which is a far cry from what “Original research” stands for). Therefore a dispute began where everyone is welcome to intervene. Why do you insist in POV-pushing at all costs? --Grufo (talk) 01:08, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

It is you who is pushing your original research, and violating WP:RSPSCRIPTURE.VR _talk 01:11, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

False statements will not become true by just repeating them. --Grufo (talk) 01:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Marital rape section again

The current version of the article reads like a whitewash that gives undue weight to exceptions from the main point. Here's a quote from an out-of-universe, scholarly source on the dominant interpretation:

Marital rape is another form of domestic violence for which justifica- tion on the basis of shari’a can be found. Although rape is a punishable crime in every Muslim society, nowhere is the criminal sanction extended to rape within marriage, because sexual access is deemed elemental to the marriage contract. Under shari’a, there is no harm-and thus no crime-in acts of sex between people who are married. Thus, marital rape is literally “uncriminalizable” under dominant interpretations of shari’a. For example, Sura 2, Verse 223, provides a Qur’anic basis for men’s unabridged sexual access to their wives. This verse stipulates that “your wives are ploughing fields for you; go to your field when and as you like.” Although other Qur’anic verses and hadith instruct men not to force themselves sexually upon their wives, this tends to be undermined by the principle of female obedience (see El Alami 1992; El Alami and Hinchcliffe 1996). Indeed, a wife’s refusal to have sex with her husband can be construed as “disobedi- ence,” thereby triggering legalistic justification for beating.

(t · c) buidhe 10:03, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Following up the discussion from WP:RSN between Grufo, Aquillion, buidhe and an IP. A few things:

• There are various kinds of "prohibition" in Islamic law. Some things are both "haram" and "criminal" and somethings only haram but can't be prosecuted. In 2017, female clerics in Indonesia declared marital rape haram and this was widely covered by sources. This doesn't contradict Hajjar.
• Some sources do indicate that marital rape can be prosecuted. But again, this is not necessarily a contradiction because different sources indicate different laws marital rape can be prosecuted under. Professor Jonathan Brown writes that marital rape was prosecuted under the laws pertaining to harm, not laws pertaining to non-consent. An article in Arab Law Quarterly also mentions that marital rape leads to prosecutions as "act of aggression against a wife". Dar al-Ifta al-Misriyyah also said that the husband who does marital rape should be taken to court. The popularity of this fatwa by Dar al-Ifta is mentioned in other sources. Quraish Shihab has stated that rape within marriage should not be legally classified as rape but rather as "torture". This position is echoed by PERGAS.
• There are sources that say that marital rape was not recognized by Islamic law, but injury arising from marital rape was criminalized. If Hajjar is only talking about the act of marital rape itself, not any injuries arising from then this is not necessary a contradiction.
• Many scholars point out that the current laws in some Muslim countries are based on English law which didn't criminalize marital rape until 1991. The previous source, Lisa Hajjar and other sources all mention an active debate underway to change those laws.

All these views should be considered.VR _talk 13:37, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd like to point out some gross misrepresentation of sources in those listed above by Vice regent. For the claim: Many scholars point out that the current laws in some Muslim countries are based on English law which didn't criminalize marital rape until 1991, Vice Regent's citation is Ong, Aihwa (1999). "Muslim feminism: Citizenship in the shelter of corporatist Islam 1". Citizenship Studies. 3 (3): 355–371. doi:10.1080/13621029908420720.. However, this source says absolutely nothing of the kind. VR's Many scholars is actually Kadis claim that the anti-domestic law does not apply to Muslims, for whom 'family matters' are dealt within in Muslim courts. Thus, in response to women's protests over marital rape, religious clerics insist that, under Islam, a man has the right to marital sex under any circumstances. and does not relate to anything VR claims it does. It's impossible that VR's Many scholars is in reference to the cited paper's own authorship, since there's only one author. VR's misleading the current laws in some Muslim countries is actually the The secular law on rape in Malaysia [in 2007] alone. I agree with Buidhe that VR's arguments and perverse interpretations of academic sources to say the opposite of what they say looks like striving to whitewash or else like special pleading. Where VR uses Tønnessen, Liv (2014). "When rape becomes politics: Negotiating Islamic law reform in Sudan". Women's Studies International Forum. 44: 145–153. doi:10.1016/j.wsif.2013.12.003. ISSN 0277-5395. to claim that there is an active debate underway to change those laws what the source really says in relation to Sudanese law on marital rape is that marital rape is perfectly legal and permissible, saying Women activists advocate that marital rape should be criminalized in the Criminal Act and that the requirements for female obedience and male guardianship in the family law should be abolished. Women in government argue for the continuation of qawama (male guardianship), which requires that a woman has the permission of her guardian to marry. Moreover, because the wife has to be obedient to her husband, she cannot deny him sexual intercourse. By this logic, the concept of marital rape does not exist. and While women activists are striving to eradicate the principle of qawama to allow for the criminalization of marital rape, Islamist women, even moderates, continue to defend it. These are the views that should be afforded their due weight - that in Islam in most of the world and throughout most of its existence, marital rape is considered impossible, as VR's own sources state. GPinkerton (talk) 22:16, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton please assume good faith (WP:AGF) and tone down your language. Jumping to the conclusions of "gross misrepresentation" and "perverse interpretations" is not helpful.

I said Many scholars point out that the current laws in some Muslim countries are based on English law which didn't criminalize marital rape until 1991. (I added a comma to help clarify my comment). The source says,

The secular law on rape is derived from the old English penal code which holds that there is no marital rape because wives do not have the right to withhold sex from their husbands. However, in 1991, the law was changed in England when marital rape was legally recognized as an offense.

While that source mentions Malaysia alone, other Muslim countries inherited their legal system from the English (including Pakistan and Bangladesh). I wasn't correct when I said "current", though. For example, Pakistan inherited its definition of rape from English law, but later dropped the spousal exemption, effectively criminalizing marital rape. If you're objecting to my use of "many scholars" then more sources can be found for Malaysian law inheriting English law.

I said, mention an active debate underway to change those laws [that don't criminalize marital rape].. This is in the sources too and was initially pointed out by Aquillion. Hajjar says

However, such interpretations are neither universal across Muslim societies nor universally accepted even within societies where intrafamily violence is sanctioned on the basis of shari'a. I elaborate on these differences with examples from specific countries in the final section of this article. Here, I would stress the point that interpretations of religion are social and have a history. In this regard, the problem of domestic violence in Muslim societies and struggles against it are comparable to those in other societies, because they raise common questions about the relationship among religion and culture, the state, and women's rights. Moreover, in the contemporary era, the importance of comparative analysis is boosted by the ways that local contestations over women's rights are shaped and affected by the impact of global legal initiatives under the rubric of human rights to regulate and restrict violence.

And Tonnessen says

There are conflicting claims regarding women’s legal rights under Islam on the key issues of consent and obedience. Women activists advocate that marital rape should be criminalized in the Criminal Act and that the requirements for femaleobedience and male guardianship in the family lawshould be abolished.

In addition to those, there active efforts by female clerics and activists in Indonesia to penalize marital rape (or sexual violence inside marriage in gneeral). VR _talk 01:05, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

None of this goes any way towards disproving that, in Islam, martial rape is generally an inapplicable concept. You were incorrect to cite a source that did not back your claims, which are in any case irrelevant, because a change in either Malaysian or Pakistani law has nothing whatever to do with Islam, whose overwhelming weight of tradition, as evidenced by all of these sources, (e.g. "Muslim societies ... where intrafamily violence is sanctioned on the basis of shari'a" backs the traditional view that rape within marriage is not wrong. English law is completely irrelevant to this discussion and you appear to be engaging in whataboutery. I stand by the "gross misrepresentation" and "perverse interpretations". It would be charitable indeed to assume the errors and omissions were simple mistakes opening up a vast gulf between VR's claims and the sources cited. Assumption of faith is easy, assessing the moral quality of that faith is more difficult. After all, this isn't the first time. GPinkerton (talk) 01:21, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Which "source that did not back your claims"? I literally posted the quotes from the sources above that back my claims. I'm not sure what "this isn't the first time" is a reference too, but if we're talking about past behavior I could certain provide examples of comments you've made in the past. Seriously, though, I'd rather discuss the topic than each other.VR _talk 01:42, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

@VR I have laid out where you went astray above. You posted quotes from sources which do not back your claims. There doesn't appear to be anything here that supports the notion marital rape is per se impermissible in mainstream Islam. The very fact it is not punishable under Islamic-law legal systems and requires secular legislation to make it punishable in Islamic states demonstrates that Islam per se is/was not opposed to marital rape. The bare reality that some people oppose Indonesia's or Sudan's legal stance on marital rape is not evidence that the long-standing view in the religion as a whole of marital rape as permissible has changed significantly. As far as supporting your claims, the fact that a perpetrator might be collaterally liable for other injuries inflicted during the rape of his wife/wives in this or that school of thought is as immaterial as Pakistan's legal position on the matter. Hajjar's, Tønnessen 's, Serrano's, and Ong's papers all speak of Islam as not criminalizing marital rape, and of the clerics who support the status quo, and their position that "under Islam, a man has the right to marital sex under any circumstances" and "Under shari’a, there is no harm - and thus no crime - in acts of sex between people who are married". To try to dilute this mainstream position with recent and/or fringe interpretations is quite undue. GPinkerton (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Again which claims of mine are not backed up? The claim that some source believe marital rape is not permissible in Islam? I gave several sources to that effect. There a couple more that I didn't mention above. Most of those sources agree that "marital rape" is not ightisab (the crime of rape in Islamic law), but its penalizable nonetheless.

Also, under Islam, a man has the right to marital sex under any circumstances, taken at face value, is a glaring error. The right to even consensual intercourse between spouses is limited by things like menstruation, Ramadan fasting, state of ihram etc. That's basic fiqh and sources for that are aplenty.

Under shari’a, there is no harm - and thus no crime - in acts of sex between people who are married appears, at face value, to contradict sources that penalize sexual injury. One of those source acknowledges that a husband forcing his wife wasn't a crime in classical Islamic law, but points out that any injury resulting from such coercion was criminalized. And while I don't know much about this, I would guess that even though marital rape wasn't a crime in English law before 1991 it would still have been illegal for a man to injure is wife before 1991.VR _talk 04:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Here are the quotes, to make it more clear:

Marital rape in Islam law is similar to other acts of aggression against a wife where she has the right to ask for divorce and prosecutions. As such, the punishment for marital rape is not similar with the severe punishments for ordinary rape.

The world's largest gathering of female Muslim clerics in Indonesia issued a fatwa Thursday that declared marital rape haram—or forbidden—under Islamic law and urged the government to make it illegal.

Here the Shariah historically worked differently from modern laws on marital rape, which originated in the 1970s. But the effect is similar: protection. Within marriage, wrongs regarding sex were not conceived of as violations of consent. They were conceived of as harm inflicted on the wife. And in Islamic history wives could and did go to courts to complain and get judges to order husbands to desist and pay damages. So yes, non-consensual sex is wrong and forbidden in Islam. But the operating element to punish marital rape fell under the concept of harm, not non-consent.

According to Dar al-Ifta, it is illegal for a husband to forcibly engage in sex with his wife.

Pergas is inclined towards the view of majority Muslim scholars, including contemporary Muslim scholars such as Quraish Shihab, renowned scholar from Indonesia, who does not equate forced sexual intercourse without consent as marital rape. Instead, Quraish Shihab categorizes it as torture rather than rape itself...Instead of repealing marital immunity for rape, Pergas is in support of creating a new offence that criminalizes the act [of marital rape] without penalizing it as rape, such as the practice in Malaysia.

VR _talk 04:53, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely every one of these sources has it that marital rape is not considered rape in Islamic law. The very fact that some clerics have opined that it might nevertheless be impermissible is beside the point. Islam has existed for more than a millennium; Wikipedia is required to treat any recent minority opinions in the context of the overwhelming. I am not encouraged by your curious attacks on your own sources as containing glaring errors, especially when sources are presented which are as weak as a blog-post apology from an individual Muslim, which can hardly be considered reliable. If you'd like to engage in this kind of speculation, we can digress to how the idea the law in England and Wales changed in 1991 is itself wrong and quite misunderstands how English law works. In 1991 a judgement in the well-known R v R case ruled that the Sexual Offences Act 1956's "It is felony for a man to rape a woman" applied to a man who in 1989 had broken into his parents-in-law's house and raped his estranged wife, and that furthermore his appeal against his conviction in 1990, based on the opinion of a judge who had died in 1676 was without basis in law, and, moreover that "There is no similar statement in the works of any earlier English commentator". No "law" made any mention of the issue until the Sexual Offences Act 2003. As should now be obvious, sources unanimously concur that marital rape is not rape in Islamic law. Here are the quotes, to make it more clear:

As such, the punishment for marital rape is not similar with the severe punishments for ordinary rape.

Marital rape itself is not considered "ordinary rape" and is not punishable as such.

The world's largest gathering of female Muslim clerics in Indonesia issued a fatwa Thursday that declared marital rape haram.

The fact this happened as recently as "Thursday" suggests that a religion dreamt up in late antiquity can hardly be represented by a fatwa proceeding from an all-female conference in Indonesia.

According to Dar al-Ifta, it is illegal for a husband to forcibly engage in sex with his wife.

This is the view of the Egyptian state-religious authorities. The Egyptian legal system is not the same as Islam.

Quraish Shihab, ... does not equate forced sexual intercourse without consent as marital rape. Instead, Quraish Shihab categorizes it as torture rather than rape itself...Instead of repealing marital immunity for rape, Pergas is in support of creating a new offence that criminalizes the act [of marital rape] without penalizing it as rape, such as the practice in Malaysia.

Again, the view that marital rape is not rape is manifest; these authorities are explicit in their desire to preserve the doctrine of "marital immunity". Interestingly, this is the same doctrine the R v R judgement called "implied consent", stating it was a "fiction" which had been legally adjudged "anachronistic and offensive" in 1976 in Regina v Steele. GPinkerton (talk) 06:39, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton, you said marital rape is not considered rape in Islamic law, and I agree. In fact the article starts with The majority of Islamic jurists do not recognise marital rape as rape. But The very fact that some clerics have opined that it might nevertheless be impermissible is important and deserves coverage. Thank you for the insight on the English law, it's not a digression at all and actually helpful. At the same time it's not helpful for you to negatively speak about the religion of 25% of the world. It doesn't add to this discussion whatsoever.VR _talk 12:00, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

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