Talk:Apple cider vinegar

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): David16622 (article contribs).

Apple Cider Vinegar being an acid, it would be appropriate for the pH, or range of such, to be mentioned in the main article. Please add that information.

AVC

• This article looks more like a biased medical journal and not an encyclopedia article. What, Where and How is apple cider vinegar not "why" you shouldn't take it. The facts don't seem to have any really backing outside of mainstream medicine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.38.150.198 (talk) 14:19, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

• Maybe it should be about time to initiate the very existance of this article? It is after all, not just one of the most popular current folk remedies for improved beauty and health, its greater family, vinagers, was introduced to the world in a documented form by mister Hipocrites himself, the father of medicine, 2400 years ago, making it one of the very first medicines known to mankind there is. There's practically an article on anything here on Wikipedia at the moment, so it astonishes me greatly that there is still not one on apple cider vinegar, by many considered as the number one everyday medicine for keeping good health. What other medicines can cure or greatly heal around 60 of the most common everyday illnesses? No wonder farmers use this on their farm animals almost as the cure for any animal illness. ;) Erik 20:40, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

• Hi, I started a page on Apple Cider Vinegar because it is a great substance. It is very basic so far but just to get it going... Jmckone (talk) 04:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

• Horray! Copied the apple cider paragraph from vinegar to get things moving. Had some wonderful veggie pasta tonight prepared with plenty of apple cider vinegar. Ewheeler (talk) 04:45, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Hey, the article as was seemed very biased and even misleading, as if someone was out to get apple cider vinegar, so I tried to at least make the referenced material more truthful and balance it back out. Another problem--I didn't see references/ footnotes on one of the referenced medical websites, either. 219.69.16.94 (talk) 08:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)grego

The 6th reference is baloney and doesn't substantiate the "lots of empirical evidence" claimed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.137.56 (talk) 15:11, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

I was the one who posted the abundance of information on Apple Cider Vinegar a few weeks ago, and I just wanted to inform everyone that I got all of the information from substantial resources. I have the book written by Paul and Patricia Bragg (Bragg brand Apple Cider Vinegar) right here, where I obtained most of my information. I also used an online encyclopedia which is obviously credible. I am an avid user of this product, I have seen all of the good qualities at work, and was dismayed to see most all of my work deleted without a good reason. I believe that the information that I added to the article could have been very helpful to any reader. --Gsushelby (talk) 21:12, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

added yeast

When I grew up we grew apples and pressed our own cider. It always turned first to a alcoholic drink and then to vinegar. We never added yeast. I suggest you double check your comment about yeast being added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arydberg (talk • contribs) 13:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

yeah just to add to the person above questioning yeast - can we call out both yeast and bacteria being mentioned as this is Wiki and there's no source provided! Let a source be provided for this hopefully

Apple cider vinegar in use

you can use Apple cider vinegar as a home remedy for gastralgia issues such as; vomit, diarrhea, upset stomache ect.

posted by bryce roberts —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.104.41 (talk) 09:09, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Proof? TylerDurden8823 (talk) 01:58, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

File:Applecidervinegar01.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Apple cider vinegar on mice and rats

There are a few medical papers on experiments with AVC on rats [1] (2008), [2] (2011), [3] (2014), although they don't seem to fit in with the rest of the article so I will leave them out for now. HealthyGirl (talk) 18:17, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

thanks for posting, the conclusion of e.g. 2014 study seems quite supportive (obviously based on experiments with mice): "In conclusion, ACV induced a protective effect against erythrocyte, kidney, and liver oxidative injury, and lowered the serum lipid levels in mice fed high cholesterol, suggesting that it possesses oxidative stress scavenging effects, inhibits lipid peroxidation, and increases the levels of antioxidant enzymes and vitamin." --Moaltmann (talk) 22:51, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

These are WP:PRIMARY studies, i.e., not confirmed by additional research and not usable to imply human effects per WP:MEDRS. Suggest leaving them out. --Zefr (talk) 23:14, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Hair Health

Apple cider vinegar can be used as a conditioner for hair also. Letting this sit in your hair for about 30 minutes after a good shampoo will leave your hair shining. Rinsing your hair with apple cider vinegar helps to seal the hair cuticle. As a result, light is reflected off the hair, making it smoother, softer and shinier. Apple cider vinegar helps to balance hair and scalp pH. There are many commercial hair-care products that have a negative effect on the hair, leaving it dry and brittle. Our hair has a pH of about 4 to 5. The acidity of the apple cider vinegar rinse means that it can help maintain the pH balance of your hair and remove buildup at the same time without stripping the hair of its natural oils which is the healthiest way to do it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nishell514 (talk • contribs) 20:25, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

This is not encyclopedic information, but rather is WP:SPAM. --Zefr (talk) 20:40, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I don't see links or likely personal benefit. It's just unencyclopedic because there are no references. The fact that such claims are widely made is relevant to the article. Chriswaterguy talk 04:25, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

Benefits of ACV

The article lacks information on the medicinal values of ACV and its corresponding medicinal properties. ACV is not just used for salad dressings and the likes, consumption of ACV lowers cholestrol, reduces blood pressure, increases metabolism, has probiotics which are good for the gut, etc. A new section will be added that talks about medicinal properties and benefits of ACV. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by MNApoorva (talk • contribs) 09:21, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

Allow me to help you get the ball rolling Some Dr. Carol Johnston research out of Arizona State. She is a solid resource for ASV research in regards to lowering glycemic spikes if supplemented with a meal. Coachbricewilliams28 (talk) 04:19, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

The many benefits of apple cider vinegar (whether or not they're real) deserve a section. Shouldn't be hard to find suitable sources showing that these beliefs are widespread. --Chriswaterguy talk 04:30, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

All seems a bit fringe. Any description of medical "benefits" would need to be sourced to good WP:MEDRS or (to counteract any fringe claims) to good science-based sources per WP:PARITY. The claims about blood pressure, metabolism etc. are not supported by science AFAICS. Alexbrn (talk) 06:26, 12 December 2017 (UTC)

I am adding the external and internal benefits of apple vinegar, precautions, warnings and adding more to the description.David16622 (talk) 14:36, 26 April 2018 (UTC)David16622

Effect on Blood Sugar

There have been experiments on humans. I added the following but it was deleted:

Experiments performed on insulin-sensitive and diabetic patients have shown that ingesting of vinegar at the time of a high carbohydrate meal can attenuate glucose and insulin responses.

A similar experiment performed with healthy subjects showed a glucose response was reduced by 31.4% after consumption with white bread. This effect was diminished when the acid was neutralized.

References

These are not reliable sources. Please see WP:MEDRS and maybe WP:WHYMEDRS for background. Alexbrn (talk) 17:17, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

How many reproduced experiments of the same kind does it take to be considered reliable? If there were a half dozen experiments of the same kind would that be considered reliable?

Given the studies that have been performed, I think it is misleading fir the article to claim "Apple cider vinegar has no medicinal or nutritional value." Why is the same standard for medical advice not applied to this statement? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.97.110.60 (talk) 17:28, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

If there are WP:MEDRS sources we are missing, then please identify them. We are bound to reflect reliable sources. Alexbrn (talk) 17:31, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't responsible for the deletion, but maybe I can help clarify what the problem is.

The sources appear to be reputable — the first reference is to an article in an Index Medicus core journal, which certainly meets the standard described in WP:MEDRS. The problem, as per Alexbrn and Zefr's comments above, is that individual journal articles (primary sources) — even several of them all apparently coming to the same conclusion — don't necessarily suffice to establish an accepted claim about human health by the standards detailed in WP:MEDRS and WP:WHYMEDRS.

Human biology and medicine is a large and complex enough field that it is often possible to find several high quality studies agreeing on some conclusion, and match them with several other high quality studies that fail to produce the same result. The standard of evidence for an accepted claim about human health therefore has to be high.

A large collection of journal articles of a high standard — reporting studies with large sample sizes and all clearly demonstrating the same result, with no contradictions of equal strength evident in the literature — may well be sufficient to establish an accepted claim, but aggregating those results in a Wikipedia article would amount to original research, which isn't the purpose of the encyclopedia. Editors therefore have to wait for that original research — the process of aggregating papers together and carrying out an analysis in a formal Review Article — to be completed by the scientific community and published in the literature. If enough high quality reviews are published, and there appears to be a consensus view in the literature, then those reviews can be cited in a Wikipedia article and the citation will be compliant with the guidance in WP:MEDRS.

The studies cited in the references above were published in reputable journals, but they represent data points in an ongoing process of accumulation of evidence on a subject which doesn't yet seem to have been studied well enough for firm conclusions to be drawn by the medical community.

I agree that some of the language in the article needs to be reworked to accurately reflect the current state of knowledge, and I've made some edits along those lines, working with the existing sources in addition to some new secondary and tertiary references.

There were a couple of statements in the article that were worded a little too strongly to be supported by the cited sources:

(1) The claim that consuming apple cider vinegar during pregnancy is potentially 'hazardous' is not really supported by the source with the same force as the wording in the article appeared to suggest. The source says this: 'Use of apple cider vinegar is not recommended in pregnant and breastfeeding women because of lack of sufficient data. Apple cider vinegar is likely safe when taken orally as food flavoring, but possibly unsafe when used in larger amounts.' The message here is clear: it's a widely-used food product. It hasn't been studied well enough to indicate either harm or benefit, but significant harm seems to be unlikely if it is consumed in normal quantities, as with most foods. I've amended the wording of the article to better reflect this.

(2) The statement that no claims of benefit [from apple cider vinegar] are supported by scientific evidence needed to be moderated a little; clearly there is some credible scientific evidence of benefits to be found in the literature, but the studies are small and there is as-yet no consensus worth noting. There is a well-established consensus that acetic acid solutions — of which apple cider vinegar happens to be one — have antimicrobial properties that can be useful for topical treatment of mild otitis externa, but apple cider vinegar has no special status in that regard, and superior formulations are available. I've again amended the wording of the article to reflect this.

I hope this is satisfactory to other editors.

95.144.253.183 (talk) 23:17, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

Primary sources are not WP:MEDRS. Alexbrn (talk) 07:15, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

While I don’t think the article should claim there are benefits, I also think it’s disingenuous to assert that there are no benefits when what little research has taken place indicates potential benefits. The article should have a more neutral statement that there is no conclusive evidence either way. 75.66.0.93 (talk) 23:38, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

No it shouldn't. We follow the sources. The concept of "evidence either way" in evidence-based-medicine is nonsensical. Alexbrn (talk) 01:06, 22 May 2019 (UTC)