Talk:North Macedonia

This is the talk page for discussing changes to the North Macedonia ARTICLE. Please place discussions on the underlying political issues on the Related disputes page. Non-editorial comments on this talk page may be removed by other editors.
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Previous discussion have been archived. Editors interested in improving this article are encouraged to see also Archive1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 (polls on move and intro par), 11 Two subpages for the naming conflict have also been created: /FYROM name support position and /Comments to FYROM name support position

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Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Southern Europe at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Southern Europe whose scope would include the Republic of Macedonia. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 16:57, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

FYROM 'Generally has good relations with Greece.' ???

Surely this line is FYROM propaganda, but everytime someone tries to alter the line it is reverted, LOL.

Here is the latest general good relations - the same as before - from ERT News today!

Greece accuses FYROM of 'falsifying' history in Alexander the Great row

ATHENS: Greece on Thursday reacted angrily to a decision by the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) to rename its capital's main airport after Alexander the Great, the famed warrior-king of antiquity that Greece considers an integral part of its own cultural heritage.

"History cannot change, or be falsified, 2,000 years on," Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis said in a statement. Bakoyannis was responding to an announcement by her FYROM counterpart Antonio Milososki that the Skopje international airport is to be renamed 'Alexander of Macedon', the foreign ministry said.

"With its announcement today, (FYROM) once again seeks false supports in the past," the Greek foreign minister said. "Alexander the Great is a leading figure of global appeal...(a) Greek conqueror who established himself in history by spreading Greek culture across the entire known world," Bakoyannis added.

Greece is also at loggerheads with its tiny northern neighbour over its name, blocking the former Yugoslav province's efforts to gain international recognition as "Macedonia" after breaking away from Belgrade in 1991. Skopje wants the name Republic of Macedonia, as laid down in its constitution, to be used globally.

But Macedonia is also the name of a northern Greek region which was the seat of power of Alexander the Great, remembered for his conquest of Asia as far as modern-day India in the fourth century BC.

Athens threatens to block FYROM's ambitions to join the European Union and NATO unless it agrees to a compromise in a dispute over its name. "This behaviour is incompatible with (FYROM's) obligations for good neighbourly relations..and its pledges to the EU, and does not further its Euro-Atlantic aspirations," Bakoyannis said on Thursday.

In 1994, Athens imposed an embargo over the issue that cost FYROM some 2.2 billion dollars, according to Skopje's estimates. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Reaper7 (talk • contribs) 22:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

Reaper7, you are right about the accrimony over the name and the (mis)appropriation of Greek cultural heritage. But in terms of trade, defence policy, anti-terrorism and even over many cultural matters, the two countries get on very well. They are even engaged in joint archaeological co-operation on their border. If you have evidence to the contrary (other than cultural heritage) please make it known. Politis 23:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The example of not generally good trade is a line above your comment remember - the two year blockade?, not being allowed in EU in the future unless they alter their name is also not generally good relations, Greece having made sure they change their name before aswell, - is all not good relations, and all this and the country has only been around less than 2 decades. Nothing is generally good. England and Turkey's relationship is generally good - Greece and Fyrom? Not.Reaper7 00:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The blocade was 14 years ago. I just think that bilateral relations between 2 countries take place across many different sectors. Some exchanges work very well, others do not. So it is our responsibility to locate those areas, give a clear picture and avoid generalising. For bad relations across most sectors look at the Republic of Cyprus and Northern Cyprus, or Azerbaidjan and Armenia, North and South Korea, India and Pakistan, etc... But Athens and Skopje share many common interests. Politis 02:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes they have good relations and this is the way it should be. The name is the only difference between them. It is of prime strategic importance for Greece that FYROM survives and becomes a healthy state ready to be integrated into the EU.--   Avg    20:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Ability of Greece to block Macedonia's entry to EU

A few days ago while reading about the naming issue I noticed a quote of the agreement signed by the two countries which allowed Macedonia to join the UN as FYROM which stated that Greece could not block Macedonia's entry to any international organisation under the FYROM name. Unfortunately I didn't save the link to the site or the quote, so would anyone with a better knowledge of the agreement or a link to the agreement be able to confirm this? Trampoline Man 14:26, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Haven't heard it before. Actually, I added the complete opposite quote from GR MFA Bakoyannis (that "the name issue" must be "resolved beforehand"). Check also Accession of FYROM to EU. NikoSilver 15:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Under current EU law, every single member state (including now Bulgaria and Romania) has the right to veto the accession of new members. Presently Greece is facilitating the disposition of EU funds towards Fyrom/Rom, especially with regard to cross border facilities (archaeology, border post facilities, etc). Politis 15:56, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You write "Greece could not block Macedonia's entry to any international organisation under the FYROM name". Stating the obvious, since Greece supported entry of the Republic with this name. --   Avg    23:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

You all seem to have missed my comment, so I'll spell it out for you:

Greek foreign minister, Ms.Dora Bakoyannis, affirmed that "...the Hellenic Parliament, under any composition, will not ratify the accession of the neighbouring country to the EU and NATO if the name issue is not resolved beforehand."

1. "Embassy of Greece - Washington, DC". Answer of FM Ms. D. Bakoyannis regarding the FYROM name issue. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accessmonthday= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)
2. "United Macedonian Diaspora". Interview with Greek Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyannis. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |accessmonthday= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |accessyear= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)

I seriously doubt there would be such an agreement that would force Greece to not veto, otherwise why would the parliament need to "ratify"? NikoSilver 23:48, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe it's a matter of EU policy that every member's parliament must individually accept a candidate's accession. I managed to find the agreement [1]. It states:

C. INTERNATIONAL, MULTILATERAL AND REGIONAL INSTITUTIONS

Article 11

1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part(Greece) agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part("FYROM") in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

Now I could be misinterpreting the text, but does that not mean Greece could not reject Macedonia's accession if the naming dispute were not resolved? Trampoline Man 01:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

It says that Greece will not object in any application of FYROM to be accepted with the name FYROM. It does reserve the right to object to any application of FYROM with another name (e.g. ROM). So if FYROM applies as FYROM, yes Greece will not veto the accession. But you're missing the point. Greece doesn't have a problem with this, on the contrary, the faster FYROM enters the EU the better. It's FYROM that has a problem. --   Avg    21:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll quote the Greek Foreign minister as it's stated in the article:

""...the Hellenic Parliament, under any composition, will not ratify the accession of the neighbouring country to the EU and NATO if the name issue is not resolved beforehand.""

With that wording, it indicates quite simply that the Greek government will not allow Macedonia's accession if the naming dispute is still ongoing, but if Macedonia decides to just use the FYROM name then Greece would be in violation of the treaty if it uses the naming dispute as a reason for blocking accession Trampoline Man 15:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Interesting link. Thanks Trampoline Man! See this nice article that applies to some recent developments:

Article 7

1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.^[1]

2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.^[2]

3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.^[3]

...comments yours... NikoSilver 22:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

To my knowledge the Republic has not recently violated any of those points, but I assume you think otherwise? Anyway, it seems you're just trying to spark a nationalist response, which isn't what I want to see anywhere, let alone here. Trampoline Man 15:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Now, now, please, your comment above may well be taken as complete lack of WP:AGF and possibly WP:NPA from your part; which I definitely don't deserve having been the major editor of the (only) featured article for the region: Macedonia (terminology). I have already cited above what the Greek government perceives as a violation of all these articles, as clearly officially stated here ("deep displeasure" and "taking backward steps and insisting on distorting the past") and also criticized here by the mediator himself (Mathew Nimetz: "Οι προσπάθειες διαμεσολάβησης για το ζήτημα της ονομασίας των Σκοπίων επηρεάζονται, και μάλιστα όχι θετικά, από την απόφαση της ΠΓΔΜ να μετονομάσει το αεροδρόμιό της σε Αλέξανδρος ο Μέγας"/"The effort to mediation on the name issue of Skopje [RoM] are affected, not positively of course, by the decision of FYROM to rename its airport to Alexander the Great"). Feel free to study all that. NikoSilver 16:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course you can't have expected me to react in any other way, given you made no real point for me to counter and all I could gather from your previous comment was what you could have implied, and had no idea what exactly I was meant to comment on.

I did suspect you may have been referring to the Airport issue, I myself do not agree with the accusations of the Greek government, the naming of an airport indicates nothing more than a desire to honour a significant person in the region's history, and naming the airport of the capital city after the most important person to gave come from the region seems quite acceptable to me. Trampoline Man 16:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

For the first part, you're right, though it was unintentional, as I presumed you'd notice the third citation. However, when in doubt, please don't take the wrong path of insinuating nationalist response spakings and the like.

For the second part, my and your opinion count zilt; it's what we can come down with sources that matters. (like my "unhelpful" Nimetz source above). If you do want my personal opinion, then <initiating nationalistic rant> I think that the whole country is built on the notion of being the rightful heir and descendant to Alexander the Great (some users here know I have extensive experience on the issue; but that is all WP:OR of course). Fortunately the facts state otherwise:

• The Kingdom of Macedon approximately coincides with Macedonia (Greece)
• The Ancient Macedonian language is most likely Greek or highly related to it; but explicitly not related to Macedonian Slavic
• Alexander the Great was tutored in Greek by the Athenian philosopher Aristotle; he self-identified as a Greek (like some contemporaries self-identify as something and it is their right to self-identification that matters above all for some).
• The Ancient Macedonians had been completely assimilated within the rest of the Greek population by the 3d cent AD. The Slavic tribes initiated descent on the 6th.
• Only the contemporary region of Macedonia, under most modern scholars extends to include the country north of Macedonia (Greece)

Now, as I don't see France claiming Leonardo Da Vinci, Julius Caesar, the Leaning tower of Pisa and the Colosseum; I expect the same from my neighbors. Had those "desires to honour a significant person in the region's history" (which is fallacious because the region is Macedon) been so frequent; I can't imagine what the names of the airports would be across the world! </end nationalistic rant> :-) NikoSilver 17:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)