Talk:Eurovision Song Contest 2021

Non Returning Countries

All participants have been announced. That means that all other countries that have participated in the past should be in yellow in the map. Countries like Turkey, Morocco, and Hungary. Curlyshirley92 (talk • contribs) 7:37, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Final 2 Participating Countries

Belarus and the United Kingdom are both participating this year. They have not chosen a singer yet so that means that they should be in purple on the map. Curlyshirley92 (talk • contribs) 7:37, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

The additional programming section

I'm thinking about removing this section. Or at least merging it with the presenters section, because a lot of info is already duplicated in the sections anyway. I question how relevant it is to the actual contest to list all the different online YouTube series. It's also rather selective in how it does that; why does Krista Calling get mentioned, but Music First doesn't? ―JochemvanHees (talk) 22:10, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

I suggest if needed, only remove the information related to Krista Calling and LookLab. The Song Celebration should stay imo as it will mark the public release of all LoT performances. And there's also a third run of #EurovisionAgain coming in the summer. Pdhadam (talk) 02:03, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Flo Rida note

@IceWelder: Although there's no inline reference, this has nothing to do with original research. It is entirely true that the song features vocals from Flo Rida, and doesn't speculate anything. The reason why it's in a note and not in the table itself as "feat. Flo Rida", is because it is not certain if the performance will feature him too. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:22, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The column lists the act name as it is presented; it always has. For San Marino, the act name is "Senhit". There is clearly some form of original research involved, given that the note was justified by this Spotify listing for an alternative version of "Adrenalina" that is not taking part in the competition. The actual version does not credit Flo Rida -- not that this would affect my original point.

If we still were to list Flo Rida despite him not being listed as a part of the act, why would San Marino be the only country where we do this? What about Rafał's and Hooverphonic's backing singers or the three singers accompanying Jendrik? Furthermore, why isn't Samuel, the rapper who is actually present for San Marino at the moment, listed? If we consistently applied these kinds of notes, the table would be more than cluttered and unreadable. It's best dealt with by leaving such details to the relevant articles, i.e. San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 and Adrenalina (Senhit song) in the case of Flo Rida. IceWelder [✉] 21:37, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Flo Rida is actually credited in the song, as explained in the comment. Jendrik's backing singers are not. And yes the table lists the act name as presented, which is why Flo Rida is not in the table. It's just there as an explanatory note. Since Flo Rida being in the song is a pretty big deal, I think the note is definitely relevant. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 21:54, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

The column lists the act name as it is presented; it always has. For San Marino, the act name is "Senhit". There is clearly some form of original research involved, given that the note was justified by this Spotify listing for an alternative version of "Adrenalina" that is not taking part in the competition. The actual version does not credit Flo Rida -- not that this would affect my original point.

The act name is Senhit but Flo Rida is present on the song and in the official music video on the ESC channel. There is no original research also the table goes by "Artist" not "Act". The San Marino delegation also confirmed regardless if Flo Rida is on stage or not his rap portion will remain. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 22:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

If we still were to list Flo Rida despite him not being listed as a part of the act, why would San Marino be the only country where we do this? What about Rafał's and Hooverphonic's backing singers or the three singers accompanying Jendrik? Furthermore, why isn't Samuel, the rapper who is actually present for San Marino at the moment, listed? If we consistently applied these kinds of notes, the table would be more than cluttered and unreadable. It's best dealt with by leaving such details to the relevant articles, i.e. San Marino in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 and Adrenalina (Senhit song) in the case of Flo Rida.

Backing vocalists are not normally indicated in the tables on the main page by notes since they "provide vocal harmony with the lead vocalist or other backing vocalists." Flo Rida is more akin to an uncredited, featured artist on the track since he is only present for his rap verse. Samuel is not included in the chart since he is only present during rehearsals and Flo Rida is not. (If we include Samuel then we have to have a note beside Go_A who had a stand-in during rehearsals as well.)

How the San Marino delegation choses to handle Flo Rida's rap verse in the event he does not go to Eurovision is up in the air and we can address that issue if/when it arises. However the original note was not original research since Flo Rida is present in the official ESC video (and subsequent recaps) and the San Marino delegation has stated that Flo Rida's rap verse will remain regardless if he goes to Eurovision or not. Maybe changing the note to say "The song features uncredited vocals from Flo Rida" would be more accurate since it is more in line with the official video on the ESC's YouTube channel. The note also clears up any confusion for readers reading this article for information on Flo Rida in the simplest way possible since one of the biggest questions relating to San Marino right now is "will Flo Rida be at Eurovision?" Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 22:09, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Take a breather, both of you. The current state is surely the best one to keep only a few days before the event itself happens? Maybe Thursday night will confirm everything for us and we won't need this back and forth? Mediation hat on here: keep the note, keep Flo Rida out of the table, and wait a few days. We're not a news ticker, we're a record of what happened, not a prediction of what might. doktorb _words^deeds 22:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Considering the note has been there for months then removed, added back then removed again (all done within 24 hrs) reaching a consensus sooner than later would be the better course of action before an IP, new editor or uninvolved editor re-adds the note before the event in question takes place. Alucard 16_{❯❯❯ chat?} 22:21, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry for my somewhat aggressive comments. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:53, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Commentary Belgium + Netherlands

Can someone add the tag that Belgium and The Netherlands will include audiodiscripty as official commentary (BE on Ketnet channel and NL on Npo Zappelin Extra) Netherlands will also have sign language on NPO 1. All the information was found on the schedueles of these channels.

Adding accessability as per MOS

As per MOS:COLOUR "Ensure that color is not the only method used to communicate important information. Especially, do not use colored text or background unless its status is also indicated using another method, such as an accessible symbol matched to a legend, or footnote labels." I suggest adding a dagger † to the semi-final table for accessibility ~ Ablaze (talk) 09:40, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for highlighting that. I have now added a dagger symbol and key to the table. Potentially these will become redundant once the full results are released after the final, but it certainly is required for now. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 09:55, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Iceland pre-recorded

Because of Covid Iceland’s performance tomorrow will be the pre-recorded version.--BabbaQ (talk) 10:55, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

What does N/A mean in the broadcasts table?

Lots of the commentators have N/A there, but to me it is not clear what this actually means. Does it mean there was no commentary? If so shouldn't it just say that? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 09:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I don't know for certain, but I would think potentially it's more like any commentator information is currently unknown. And tbh it should probably say that rather than N/A. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 15:46, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Why are we using a dagger symbol?

The dagger in informative and academic sources is used almost exclusively to denote that someone has died (or that something has ended). It is a very strange choice of symbol to use as a "qualified country". There are so many other possible symbols we could use including a simple check-mark. Unless that symbol must be used for other important reasons (such as a necessary coding for visually impaired readers) can we please replace it with something else? Shabidoo | Talk 23:09, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Supposed drug use

During a green room segment in the grand final, Damiano David, member of the Italian group Måneskin, was seen to be inhaling a line of cocaine. In the group's winner's press conference following their win, a Swedish journalist asked about the allegations. David refused them by suggesting fellow member Thomas Raggi had broken a glass, going on to say "I don't use drugs, please guys, do not say that."[244]

See this and other RS. The voice must be changed. The singer was not seen to be inhaling anything in the short segment and there is no evidence. Instead should be said that some people suggested seeing him on TV inhaling some drug, supposedly cocaine, while bending down at his table.--31.217.34.186 (talk) 03:06, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The band has added on Instagram after the contest that they are willing to get tested to disprove the allegations as they "have nothing to hide." Nesteajr (talk) 05:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC) (13:13, 23 May 2021 (UTC))

Agree. The section, for now, should be deleted because there's nothing relevant and evident. Nobody brought up any official charges or anything. It reads like defamatory fake news, it is too trivial and recent to be here. Give it a few days. If anything comes up, they get tested, or something then it should be recovered.--ParoleSonore (talk) 05:59, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Plus seeing the scene you can see that Damiano's far from table, and the hands are far from the nose. ~~---- DR5996 (talk) 08:41, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

To paraphrase someone on Twitter; "If you think he was doing cocaine, you've never done cocaine." doktorb _words^deeds 16:25, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

This is not a forum. We are not here to judge ourselves whether or not they used drugs, we simply report on what happened according to reliable sources. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:27, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Given that there are quite a few sources about it, and that even the EBU has mentioned it, I think it's definitely worth mentioning it on Wikipedia as well. (In a neutral way, of course.) ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:31, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

It's close case now. It is fake news. I wonder if the section should be renamed to "Italian drug use fake news" or keep the "Italian drug use allegations"?--ParoleSonore (talk) 18:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

"allegations" looks more neutral to me; "fake news" is used more often to insult news sites than being used in a formal way. Also it isn't even news, it's just rumours. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 18:14, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

have to agree, allegations or rumours do sound more correct to describe the whole case.--ParoleSonore (talk) 18:37, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Flo Rida

Flo Rida is not credited anywhere as performer on official Eurovision socials as well as in the text just before the performance. Previously we had a note explaining that Adrenalina contains uncredited vocals from Flo Rida, and I want to bring that back. In my opinion we should always follow artist names and song titles used in the actual shows. — TheThomanski | t | c | 12:42, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree; the participating artist was Senhit and it should be listed as such. I would change the footnote though to say that the act featured Flo Rida instead of just the song. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:33, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

It is correct that for the on screen credit for San Marino, there is no mention of Flo Rida. The artist is named simply as "Senhit". The official Eurovision website also only lists Senhit as the artist. Thus I don't think Flo Rida should be mentioned in any format. He's simply an uncredited backing singer. As was Al Bano for Switzerland in 2000 and Paul Harrington in 1998 for Ireland in other examples.65.113.135.165 (talk) 17:37, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Well he is actually credited in the song, just not in the act, so I do think it is worth mentioning it. I also find it ingenuine to call him a backing singer; he performed a significant part of the song. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Then we have to go back to all previous contests and adjust all the credits where debate will ensue. In 1957, Sim Neveen performed a significant part of the Dutch song. Yet he is not mentioned at all as the performance was credited just to Corry Brokken. Hazell Dean performed a significant part of the UK entry in 1984. She actually performed all the lead vocal, but was hidden off camera. Let's not go there. If wikipedia moves away from following the on screen credits and the official website credits, integrity will become a huge issue. According to the broadcast of this year's Eurovision Song Contest, San Marino's entry was performed by Senhit. No other credit is given. Wikipedia should follow this official credit.

Oh, I did not know that. Because it wasn't on Wikipedia. Look, these footnotes don't follow the official website anyway. For example, the song Loco Loco is listed on the ESC website as being in Serbian, even though it clearly also contains English and Spanish. So on Wikipedia, we add a footnote explaining it, for completeness's sake. We can do the same with Adrenalina: list it as a Senhit song, but explain that Flo Rida also played a large part in the performance. If that also applies to other entries, then yes we should also add it there. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:23, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Do we? Oh! I didn't know 'we' did that. OK. Go right ahead and do whatever 'we' think is best. We'll then go through every ESC entry on wikipedia and add all the relevant footnotes that we should also add. Fair enough. Thank you for explaining to us how we use wikipedia. 65.113.135.165 (talk) 22:34, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I meant to refer to the current state of Eurovision articles. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:43, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect scoreboards semi final 1 televote & grand final jury vote

Croatia received 2 points from Cyprus in the first semi final televote scores. This score is missing from the grid. Croatia's total of 110 is shown correctly, but the points in the grid only add up to 108. For the final, the Swiss jury votes are showing that they awarded 5 points twice. Lithuania received 4 from Switzerland, not 5. The total of 220 is correct, but the points as shown add up to 221. 65.113.135.165 (talk) 16:18, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Corrections made after page was opened for editing.65.113.135.165 (talk) 03:36, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

"Moldova's mic drop" section

I personally think this should be removed because although it may be relevant, it is not noteworthy because it's such a small thing compared to the scope of this article (although it's probably noteworthy enough for the Moldova in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 article). Also, the section is mostly copied from a primary source which clearly does not describe the incident in a neutral way. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 13:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree.--ParoleSonore (talk) 14:07, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Also agree. Grk1011 (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Disagree (obviously, as I wrote it ☺). I think it's relevant because people are talking about it. I already added 2 refs, one of them is the official ESC website mentioning the incident, so that's not nothing. You can easily find more news articles covering it, like here or here or here. Regarding "mostly copied from a primary source": huh? Which part is supposedly copied? No, I did not copy anything. Cheers 87.155.220.95 (talk) 15:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't make it significant in terms of the contest as a whole though. It is WP:UNDUE weight. It can and should be mentioned in the Moldova in the Eurovision Song Contest 2021 article. Grk1011 (talk) 15:45, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Agree that it is an unnecessary addition for this article per WP:UNDUE; inclusion in the Moldova 2021 is the right level for this kind of incident. Sims2aholic8 (talk) 16:05, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE talks about representing minority/fringe opinions in an article, the mic drop isn't an opinion, so, unsure if WP:UNDUE even applies here. Ignoring that, WP:UNDUE says minor things should not be given more space/weight than is due, it does not say you must leave out minor things completely. Yes, the mic drop was no huge thing, and that's exactly why I tried to write as concise as possible, making this incident's section the shortest of all. Compare that to the "Ukrainian rehearsal stand-in" section, which is 3x as long even though it had no actual consequence on the show, or the huge "Allegations of drug use in the Italian delegation" section, even though nothing came out of it eventually, nobody got disqualified or anything. IMHO, in comparison to that, these 2 quite short sentences about the mic drop are justified, a small section for a small incident. Cheers 87.155.220.95 (talk) 16:19, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Afterthought: I think the "drug allegations" comparison fits well. What did actually happen? A glass broke. Irrelevant. What made it relevant? People/news talking about it! Same: mic drop is no huge deal, but people are talking about it. I think that's worth 2 sentences. Cheers again 87.155.220.95 (talk) 16:34, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Deleting the Italian lyric's censorship incident

Why wouldn't you call this incident? Who says what an incident is? Is the fact it is a lower scale than another incident doesn't make it an incident? The definition of Incident, according to Cambridge English Dictionary is: "an event that is either unpleasant or unusual". It is unusual that words are being censored in the contest, and in other years' articles (such as 2005) it does mention such an even as incident.

Therefore, I believe it is a relevant information that needs to be mentioned on the Incidents section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Danyzack02 (talk • contribs) 14:12, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

It is not an incident. It is an adjustment to the song, similar to what other countries do between a song winning a selection process and then going to ESC. Sometimes they change their performance, sometimes they "revamp" it, sometimes they need to shorten it to 3 mins max, and in the case of Italy, they had to remove swear words that would have been in violation of contest rules. Grk1011 (talk) 15:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth... in 1973, the UK artist Cliff Richard was told by the BBC he had to sing the word 'laying' rather than 'lying' for his live performance of the British entry. It's not mentioned in the article. Nor should it be. It's not an incident. Similarly, Iceland's artist was forbidden by the EBU to use a single curse word in her live performance in 2006. You won't find that in the article either.65.113.135.165 (talk) 16:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Except that David sang the original "forbidden" lyrics in the reprise after winning, so the "incident" wasn't changing the song, the incident was David's refusal to comply. Just my 2 cents... 87.155.220.95 (talk) 17:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Norwegian artist name

In all the on screen credits and on the official Eurovision website, the Norwegian artist is credited as 'TIX' not 'Tix'. Although it's just a trivial matter of style, I think TIX is the accurate representation of this artist's name. 65.113.135.165 (talk) 16:26, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia guidelines, we don't stylize fonts. Unless TIX is an acronym, we would use the standard formatting, which appears to be correct as Tix. Grk1011 (talk) 16:50, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Infobox, Belarus

Please someone add a note in the infobox that Belarus was actually disqualified (in non-returning countries). Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

The infobox does not go into that level of detail. It just lists countries that participated in the previous contest, but not this one. It does not attempt to explain or categorize by why. Grk1011 (talk) 18:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Malta Incident

Would this be classed as an incident? http://esctoday.com/183476/eurovision-malta-gate-at-pbs/ 81.149.243.201 (talk) 13:00, 28 May 2021 (UTC)