Talk:Surfside condominium collapse

Naming

"Apartment block" is a phrase virtually unknown in American English. Per Wiki policy, the article should be in the variety of English of the location of the event, or in the most neutral language possible. I would never have thought to search for this article by this title. Recommend changing to "apartment building," or perhaps "residential building" if they were condos. The latter term is what the New York Times is using, for example. Moncrief (talk) 15:21, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

• I agree that we should rename the article to fall in line with American English per Wiki policy. However, here in Miami where the event has taken place, we refer to this building as a "condominium" or a "condo building". I believe that would be more appropriate than "apartment building", as that would imply a different type of building and ownership. --ItsGrrreat (talk) 15:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
• Eg., Google search gives the following, condo seems to be “obligatory” part... — Pietadè (talk) 15:38, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Condo building would be more accurate. I didn't realize at first that they were condos. I can imagine "residential building" being agreed on as a more neutral term. At any rate, it's clear that "apartment block" is awful and has to go. It sounds like a city block of apartments (as in, bounded by four streets) collapsed, to an American ear. Moncrief (talk) 15:41, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I have moved the article per strong consensus here. I have no objection if consensus changes to move it to "Champlain Towers South collapse" or something similar, it really depends on what the news media start calling it. Abductive (reasoning) 16:07, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Moncrief (talk) 16:12, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Addition of year

I think the title is still off. Should probably have the year at the start of the title. SecretName101 (talk) 17:29, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

changed this. Now it is in-line with the titling of similar articles. SecretName101 (talk) 17:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

That probably should have been proposed and discussed here before the move. Are there other condominium collapses in Surfside to be disambiguated? General Ization ^Talk 17:37, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

And has now been moved back, in line with my thinking on the question. General Ization ^Talk 17:45, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

And one has to be especially vigilant with roof-repairers...;-) — Pietadè (talk) 17:54, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

By the way, started the article in etwi at first, on the wave of BBC World News, as "Miami building collapse", checking at first were/are there any earlier events of similar kind, didn't find...
So, if there are any similar events (in the same (broad) area) anticipated, a number in front of the heading would be appropriate, IMHO (like in Italian Wars), otherwise, what's the point? — Pietadè (talk) 18:31, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposed name

Eliminate condominium. Too complex. Unnecessary. Not supported by reliable sources as the title. CNN and TV news do not say "condominium" or even "condo". Likewise, we wouldn't have a "San Francisco rental apartment building collapse" or a "Miami time share building collapse". A building is a building. Corona80 (talk) 18:10, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Surfside building collapse.

• Support. I wouldn't oppose an addition of Florida or USA. Corona80 (talk) 18:10, 24 June 2021 (UTC) Additional comment: What if the building was converted to rentals (usually rentals to condo, not vice versa). Would the title be Surfside Rental Building collapse"? No. So leave out condo. Corona80 (talk) 20:18, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
• Comment The headline at this moment at CNN.com is "51 missing after condo partly collapses" and the subhead is "At least one person is dead and 51 who are assumed to reside in the Florida condo are unaccounted for, official says" (emphasis added). General Ization ^Talk 18:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
  • Likewise at cbsnews.com: "Video shows boy being pulled from rubble after Florida condo building collapse". [1] General Ization ^Talk 18:30, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
  • And AP: "Many feared dead after Florida beachfront condo collapses". [2] The title is sourced and follows conventions in media sources. We do not need to disambiguate Miami to avoid confusion with Miami, Ohio, which has no beachfront properties, or one outside the US; it is linked. General Ization ^Talk 18:32, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
• Support (were there any, say, bistros, heel bars, etc., on the ground floor/ground storey...?) — Pietadè (talk) 18:45, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
  And, accordingly, should there be categories à la Condo(minium) collapses by year, state, continent, death doll, etc....? ;-) — Pietadè (talk) 18:56, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

• Support taking out "condominium." And also support adding "Florida" as is common in US place names that are not widely known. So, I'm voting specifically for "2021 Surfside, Florida building collapse" or some minor variation of that. Moncrief (talk) 18:54, 24 June 2021 (UTC) Edited to add: It looks now as if the death toll is going to be pretty high -- higher than expected when I wrote the above. The year will probably not be necessary. And possibly not the state either, depending on how infamous this gets. I think I'd say for now that I don't know what the right name should be. (One hopes we won't still be voting and arguing about the best name six months from now, a la the article about January 6th at the Capitol...) Moncrief (talk) 20:15, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

„2021 Surfside“ — seems particularly confusing, at least for me (surf+side). — Pietadè (talk) 18:59, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Surfside is the name of the town within which the structure is located. General Ization ^Talk 19:06, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Y, made an article on this in etwi, yet for "untrained" eyes (and hind) behind, this (1921, 2021, etc.) can hint on whatsoever (say, if one is going to transfer this article via translate.google.com into some other language)... — Pietadè (talk) 19:18, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. In American English, and particularly with regard to the architecture of Miami and other resort cities, "condominium" is as much a noun as it is an adjective. An entire, large building primarily containing condominium units (even if possibly containing retail, restaurant and other uses as well) is generally known as a condominium or condo (as are its individual units). Hence the widespread use of the term in US media to refer to the structure. The title correctly identifies the building type, as opposed to an apartment building, or a commercial or industrial structure. It also conveys that it is a large, hence high-density, structure with the potential for a high death toll in a collapse. General Ization ^Talk 19:21, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

cf. eg. with a more general term (for general audience) as "building" (Lexico / MW / Collins / Cambridge, etc.)... — Pietadè (talk) 19:37, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is a building, but commercial, industrial and low-density residential structures (also buildings) generally don't have the same potential for loss of life in a collapse (excluding large office towers, and this building is more comparable to those than typical residential structures in the US). General Ization ^Talk 19:43, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

(As an illustration, an ocean liner is a type of boat (or ship), but in the context of a disaster a boat sinking implies something less.) General Ization ^Talk 20:00, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Depends on language and cultural space too, etwi version in the title/heading covers both condo(minium)/building, and specifies à la with multiple/more than one entrance(s). — Pietadè (talk) 19:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

What is "etwi"? You keep using that word as if people here know what you're talking about. Moncrief (talk) 20:29, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Estonian Wikipedia. General Ization ^Talk 20:32, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Besides, earlier it is linked.
Seems appropriate to ask for some kind of protection to this page/article. — Pietadè (talk) 20:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Second name proposal

What about Champlain Towers collapse or Champlain Towers South collapse? In line with for example Grenfell Tower fire. 92.24.242.202 (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

It's too early to say if that name will be the WP:COMMONNAME. Currently it's not even in the running. Moncrief (talk) 20:18, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - that should only become the title if it becomes the common name. Jim Michael (talk) 20:19, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

M' poor eyesight can read it as "Champaign" (Ls and ls, Is and is). — Pietadè (talk) 20:38, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Why is that relevant to anything? Moncrief (talk) 21:45, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

The answer is simple: "Champlain" (especially in red font) is/was not so easy to read correctly, perhaps I'm not the only one (the simpler the better?) — Pietadè (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

You are truly one of the oddest Wikipedia editors I've encountered in my 17 years here. Moncrief (talk) 21:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, indeed! Shall cover the topic on Y'r talk page, if Y don't mind (how can Y, technically)22:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Units

Appears to me from these three links [3], [4], [5] that that "136 units" mentioned were specifically in the South building, not the combination of the three buildings. The North building contains 111 units and the East building contains 99 units. Did the entire South building fall? If so, 136 units were destroyed, not just 55. General Ization ^Talk 17:27, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Only part of the building collapsed. It was a partial collapse. SecretName101 (talk) 17:31, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I understand. I'm trying to clarify whether the partial collapse represented the total loss of the South tower, while the East and North towers remained standing, or whether the buildings are actually separate and a portion of the South tower remains intact. General Ization ^Talk 17:34, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

It looks to me like the South tower and the other two towers were effectively integrated into one structure on the site. General Ization ^Talk 17:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

− East and North are separate buildings to its North. The “Bluegreen Vacations Solara Surfside resort” lays in between the South and East Buildings. SecretName101 (talk) 17:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks for the clarification. General Ization ^Talk 17:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Possible causes?

I wonder if the Mayor's statement that the roof was being repaired should be considered a "possible cause" at this point in time - there is no "possible cause" that has been identified anywhere as far as I am aware. The mayor's statement may describe a circumstance surrounding the event but the inference that this was in any shape or form a "possible cause" is premature at best. Allan 24.138.44.20 (talk) 17:24, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Agree. Premature. Moved to the Background section for now. General Ization ^Talk 17:29, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

The building has been sinking since the 1990's per at least 6 online sources. Doesn't mean that the sinking is the cause. It could be something else. But there was sinking. Corona80 (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

This has to have an official/technical grounding. — Pietadè (talk) 21:55, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

And, as for the cause (currently: 21:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)), perhaps some migratory birds... — Pietadè (talk) 21:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Video "evidence"

Many are saying that the videos posted of a building collapsing is not that same building. I added a questionable label, but something to monitor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.242.202 (talk) 16:03, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Disturbing video shows moment building collapses in Florida, Hollywood?
Currently viewing live in BBC, from the screen..., ~99 missing...
58 minutes ago: Miami building collapse leaves 99 people unaccounted for (about 1/2 of the whole structure?) (for those not familiar with BBC politics: they do change the title/heading (and the content), yet the URI remains unchanged for some (unknown) time).
Smth similar to bank account link — the link remains the same, the content yet not, one may dream... — Pietadè (talk) 20:01, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

I removed the label. The local Fox News and CBS affiliates in Miami should have been able to recognize the view as showing the correct structure, and we have no reason to deem them unreliable. General Ization ^Talk 20:07, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Partially

Currently (23:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)) "partially collapsed at about 1:30 a.m. EDT on June 24, 2021." kind of disregards "9 secs later" for the following part — Pietadè (talk) 23:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

This seems to me to be a distinction without a difference. The entire event started and ended at approximately 0130. General Ization ^Talk 23:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Related (in which way, remains unknown) or not, there is/are still standing parts, the fate of which can currently only speculated — Pietadè (talk) 23:52, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

New death toll

MSM states 3 people dead https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/florida-building-collapse-latest-3-dead-as-many-as-99-missing/ar-AALnGxF?ocid=uxbndlbing