Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Professional wrestling

WikiProject Professional Wrestling
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Database of WWE Raw episodes

I’ve started compiling a table of Raw episodes over on my personal sandbox, I wanted to get peoples opinions on this, obviously this has never been done on Wikipedia besides the lists of special episodes of RAW, Smackdown, Dynamite etc.

I’ve completed 1993-94 so far, before continuing on, I really just wanted to gather some opinions, would this be a useful article, or am I wasting my time, would it be better off split into different time periods to avoid a huge list?

Sandbox link: User:Copper1993/sandbox

Copper1993 (talk) 14:53, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi Copper1993 - I fully support this! However, here's how I would do it, year-by-year like professional sports teams seasons, rather than all one batch. There could also be a month-by-month summary of major events and goings on, or episodic synopsis, providing it's all well sourced. It's been on my to-do list a while, just haven't got around to it yet! ItsKesha (talk) 15:40, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi ItsKesha, thanks for the ideas! I feel like that’s what I had in the back of my mind but I just couldn’t work out the best way to approach it, I really like the idea of being able to provide an overview of each year, I’m hoping this can become a group effort, maybe different people can work on specific years once we’ve got a format in place. Copper1993 (talk) 15:49, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

I worry this would go against WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:LISTCRUFT. — Czello 16:26, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Czello That was my biggest concern, especially since it would be quite a time consuming project.. I’ll leave it for the time being until we can come up with some other suggestions, if we could perhaps expand on each episode by including the card, and any addition information rather than just have a basic list, it might prove to be more useful, although again...very time consuming when all said and done. Copper1993 (talk) 19:19, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think this is really what Wikipedia is for. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 20:33, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Czello and Lee Vilenski: We have lists of episodes for other TV shows, as well as lists for special episodes of wrestling and lists of pay-per-views, what's so different about this? --JDC808 ♫ 07:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Copper1993, this has sorta been talked about before, but I'm for it. Like I just mentioned to Czello and Lee Vilenski, we have articles for list of episodes for each season of a TV show, this really isn't that much different, though because there's not truly "seasons" with wrestling shows (even if WWE has "season premieres"), a list of episodes by year makes the most sense to me. I think what you got going Copper in your sandbox is a good start. It could even be taken one step further and instead of "Final match," have a summary of the episodes main points, like the big matches for that episodes and any developments in ongoing major storylines (sorta like how the list of special episodes does it). Or perhaps one box with the match card (notating which was the main event) and another box to summarize main storylines. There are a couple of different ways that we could go with it, but again, what you've done in your sandbox is a good starting point. --JDC808 ♫ 07:30, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I think that's a clear case of WP:OTHERSTUFF. Plus, those other lists of TV episodes are normally a) much shorter (this is 25 years of weekly episodes we're talking about) and b) have a plot synopsis that justifies its existence. I think just having a list of matches will again come under WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:LISTCRUFT. — Czello 07:52, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

If you're going to bring up longevity, The Simpsons has been on longer. Also, in regard to a plot synopsis, that's why I suggested a summary of the main storylines for the episodes, because these are TV shows. --JDC808 ♫ 08:05, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Though if you think adding the plot synopsis for each episode will justify the article's existence more, you could attempt it and see if it works -- but that's a lot of work. That's 1400+ episodes you're talking about. Realistically, is this ever going to happen? — Czello 06:42, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

I’ve gone ahead and modified my table a bit, for the debut episode I’ve added in the full card underneath the episode information, obviously the ‘Final match’ column would be deleted, but this gives a basic idea of how it would look, any thoughts? User:Copper1993/sandbox Copper1993 (talk) 11:49, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I’ve also added in details on various segments in paragraphs above the card list, I feel that if we’re able to provide information like this it stops it from becoming simple a list of dates, I’m not sure if there’s a better place I can put this other that my sandbox, ideally I’d like to put it in a place where others can work on it too, is there any way to do so? A project subpage perhaps, starting with the debut episode and then we can work down from there? Copper1993 (talk) 16:06, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about listing the final match for each episode. It's not a particularly defining characteristic, particularly when the heavily promoted matches came earlier. For example, October 11, 1993, featured Razor Ramon vs. Rick Martel for the vacant intercontinental championship. Telling readers instead that the show ended with the Rock 'n' Roll Express vs. Duane Gill and Barry Hardy doesn't seem to serve a purpose. GaryColemanFan (talk) 22:47, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Exactly why I’ve opted to remove that column entirely and add in a paragraph underneath listing the entire card, once I started seeing that most of the early shows ended with jobber matches, I figured it was a dumb idea. If you check my sandbox now I’ve added in a much more detailed description to the debut RAW Copper1993 (talk) 00:18, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

I’ve gone ahead and started a subpage within the project page wikipedia:WikiProject_Professional_wrestling/RawDatabase anyone feel free to make changes/contribute Copper1993 (talk) 13:00, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

@Copper1993: This table looks a lot better than what you have in your sandbox. As long as the episodes are sourced are and it's the synopsis is pared down the important stuff and major storylines, it should be done. It can be done for SmackDown, NXT, NXT UK, ECW on Spike, Dynamite, Nitro, Thunder, etc.. But one thing at a time. Ignore Czello. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and WP:LISTCRUFT are not good arguments here. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 10:21, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but they are very valid arguments. Saying "well, the Simpsons has an episode list so why shouldn't we?" is the very definition of WP:OTHERSTUFF. As for listcruft, in order to justify this article's existence in the face of it there would need to be something to make it less arbitrary. A summary of plot details might well do that (maybe, I'd still expect an AfD), but as I said above -- are you prepared to add that for all 1400+ episodes? I very much doubt that will happen. I also notice that WP:INDISCRIMINATE wasn't mentioned. Keeping this in a sandbox/user space is wise for now as currently this is looking to be a monumental task which shouldn't go live until it satisfies these concerns. — Czello 10:27, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

There are multiple editors in this project. It's not a one-man task force that would be tackling this (though if one person wants to do all the research, they are more than welcome to). Also, OTHERSTUFFEXISTS can also be a valid argument for a reason to do it, which kind of goes with my point of bringing up The Simpsons as it was to show that it is not an impossible task that you are kind of making it out to be (you were making a big deal that Raw has been on for 25+ years, but The Simpsons has been on longer and editors have managed to make episode lists for all of its seasons). --JDC808 ♫ 21:50, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

But there are more episodes of Raw. I'm not saying it's an impossible task at all, just a monumental one (especially if you want to add a plot summary for each episode). That said, I think building it in the user space for the time being is fine until it's ready to go live. — Czello 21:59, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

We’ve started compiling the detailed list if anyone would like to help: Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/RawDatabase Copper1993 (talk) 02:32, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

The addition of a plot summary is a significant improvement that makes this work, good job. We've got over 1400 of these to do so it'll be a long haul but I think if anyone in this Wikiproject can just add an episode where they can we might be able to get this live later this year. — Czello 07:09, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Joey Ryan (wrestler)

If anybody interested could add Joey Ryan (wrestler) to their watchlists, it would be a great help. The article was always going to be a BLP nightmare but lately some SPAs have been adding poorly referenced material regarding the allegations against him.LM2000 (talk) 07:10, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Ok. I will do my best --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 07:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@LM2000: Go to WP:PAGEPROTECT and request protection for a short period of time. If this persists after the time frame expires, you can always request permanent page protection. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 04:25, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Admins sometimes turn down protection in instances like this that aren't outright vandalism, which is why I brought it here. I'll raise the issue on one of the noticeboards if this persists though.LM2000 (talk) 08:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Reliability_of_publisher

may be of interest to this project. Hog Farm _Talk 22:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

RFC on navigational template colour schemes

I've created a request for comment to get views on this topic from the wider community. McPhail (talk) 13:34, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Worth reminding the WikiProject that this covers all templates, in case anyone hasn't seen this. — Czello 12:10, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Top icon

I created this top icon for WikiProject Professional wrestling:

• Template:WikiProject Professional wrestling topicon

Your thoughts? The template documentation may need some improvements; e.g. more details or clarification. Wario-Man ^talk 12:19, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

@Wario-Man: Added it to my userpage. Very neat, I love it! :) Now we can all be the champions of professional wrestling on Wikipedia. DrewieStewie (talk) 21:05, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Would someone please add it to Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling/Members list? Wario-Man ^talk 15:44, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Headlock on Hunger

This was a real WWF charity project for a while. Was promoted on global TV and the Internet still remembers. But Wikipedia barely mentions it, except for one lesser-known bio (on whom I shall not mention here). Something to think about for a creative type. It wouldn't run afoul of any advocacy prohibitions I'm aware of, since that particular generation of starving kids grew up or moved on long ago, but still seemingly "good to know" from a historical wrasslin' perspective. My efficient and resourceful days are behind me, so it's up to you, members of this general audience, to carry my relaxed idealism forward! Or not, of course. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:20, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

PWMania

Requesting to let https://www.pwmania.com/ to be used as a WP:PW/RS again. It no longer uses the author Marc Middleton, for which it was classified as unreliable. Besides just one mistaken report doesn't make you entirely wrong. In 2014 Dave Meltzer mistakenly reported that CM Punk will return to WWE, [1], [2], but I see people are biased regarding him and always cites anything he says as reliable. But other authors, for just one incorrect report, gets labeled unreliable. Either ways, PWMania is one of the oldest and most reliable wrestling news sources, Marc Middleton no longer workks for them since =2016, and since 2016 you will not find a single article by them which is inaccurate, also just visit, you will be impressed by their professionalism, site layout, accuracy, everything. So I deeply request PWmania to be reclassified as a reliable WP:PW/RS. Dilbaggg (talk) 06:01, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Your attempt at saying Meltzer is unreliable is a self-published website written by "Vijayabalaji", and an audio clip where Meltzer says a source told him a wrestler was returning but then spends a minute explaining why he thought the wrestler probably wouldn't be returning, and then explains in the aftermath what had happened. Was this report of the wrestler returning ever published in Meltzer's newsletter, by the way?
Can you name any of the reporters at the PWMania website? Can you name who is the editor of PWMania? Can you tell me what their editorial process is, and why they don't have a byline? Can you tell me why the only credited author on their website in the last four years is a columnist named Jim LaMotta, who is unverified on Twitter and has fewer than 500 followers? Can you even tell me what country PWMania are based out of? Yet again you establish that you have absolutely no clue whatsoever about what should and shouldn't constitute a reliable source. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 09:19, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Oof, while I agree with your concerns that seemed a tad hostile. — Czello 09:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

This is somebody who genuinely thinks internet forums, Wikipedia mirrors, TV Tropes, and Tripod are good sources, and has regularly ignored information about what constitutes unreliable sources in this project (Sportster, Online World of Wrestling, SportsKeeda) - this is all from June 2021. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 12:30, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

Since User:ItsKesha is being off topic and WP:Personal Attack me, rather than talking about the source which was widely accepted before he even joined Wikipedia, I will point out his behavior. ItsKesha is a 2020 editor making changes that I feel are best left to pre 2015 senior experienced editors (I myself only registered in 2019, so don't make such changes), also disguising edits in the name of removing unreliable sources ItsKesha is also removing extremely reliable WP:PW/RS such as PWTORCH just to make the article more fit according to his preference. These issues regarding him were brought here before even on ANI discussions, not just by me but other editors, and nogt just wrestling articles but football and other articles, also ItsKesha has received countless warnings from various editors of wrestling and football articles for unconstructive edits, but caught in the act Its Kesha removes those warnings from talk page, but they can be easily viewed regarding his talk page history. Also shameless edit warring is not a nice behavior, but User:ItsKesha just keeps on doing that. I always politely request ItsKesha to WP:RfC and generate opinions from senior editors, but he never dares do that fearing that the consensus will not go in his favor. Just look at all the warnings he received on his page history that he tries to hide. Most recently From Stone Cold Steve Austin article he removed "PWTORCH" a widely accepted WP:PW/RS in the name of "removing bad sources" (just one out of countless similar cases), he does that in other articles removing WP:RS just to fit his own personal views.

I know I have had a harsh tone here, but he personally attacked me so I am human and did what I did, I will not add further here and do not want it to be off topic, and urge everyone just to come up with a consensus because unlike him I don't WP:EW and am brave enough to seek consensus and accept what the vast majority editors agree on. I stated the reason that PWMania was classified unreliable was over back in 2016 and since then it has been clean, and extremely accurate, very similar to pwtorch, wrestleview and 411mania, and personally, I think it should be reclassified as reliable, but once again it all depends on the consensus here, and I have nothing more to say here, hope we get back on topic and discuss the matter cleanly. Cheers. Dilbaggg (talk) 15:39, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

lol ItsKesha (talk) 16:05, 21 June 2021 (UTC)

• Comment Can you prove "PWMania.com Staff = reliable"? Who are PWMania.com Staff? What makes PWMania a reliable source? What is so special about PWMania and its content? Wario-Man ^talk 17:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

I agree with PWMania being unreliable. I see the same with WON and Dave Meltzer, as he reports a lot of speculation that is unproven and often false. Same with Bryan Alvarez. Theres some stuff they can be trusted with, but a lot I can't trust them with for Wikipedia standards. DrewieStewie (talk) 08:59, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Proposed changes to Professional wrestler infobox

I posted this on the talk page for the template, I am also posting here for visibility. I am proposing major revisions to the current Infobox professional wrestler format: a "Promotion" parameter, a "Notable Tag Team(s)" parameter, and a "Stable(s)" parameter. Holidayruin (talk) 04:31, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Posting again. Need people to build a consensus! Come and state your thoughts on adding a new parameter. If the change goes through it might be a lot of work for this WikiProject! Holidayruin (talk) 04:14, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello. Posting again cause the conversation died out. We need consensus one way or the other! Please voice your opinion here on whether infobox parameters "Promotions", "Stables", and "Tag Teams" are/aren't a good idea to include for wrestlers. Holidayruin (talk) 23:51, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Please don't change section heading ordering because you want to want to get more views. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 07:42, 29 June 2021 (UTC)

Spouse(s): Real names vs. Ring names

I have seen some users replace real names (spouse parameter) with gimmicks or ring names; e.g. see [3][4][5]. What should we do? Wario-Man ^talk 08:05, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Surely WP:COMMONNAME always takes effect here? Meaning we should stick with ring names. — Czello 08:54, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Should really be their real name. They aren't married to the gimmick.Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:03, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

no problem with the Ring name. In pro wrestling, ring names are usually used as stage names, even if it's a character. Even media like people uses the ring name. https://people.com/parents/becky-lynch-pregnant-expecting-first-child-seth-rollins-exclusive/ --HHH Pedrigree (talk) 09:40, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Common name takes precedent which is ring name 9 times out of 10. Exceptions are if theyre notable outside of wrestling by their real names such as rock and Batista. Stage names like Bad Bunny and Offset count too. DrewieStewie (talk) 12:17, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Real name - imagine seeing that Michelle McCool was married to "The Undertaker" or Stephanie McMahon was married to Triple H. Is that a wrestling storyline? Real names for real life, project-wide, for consistency and ease of understanding. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 16:51, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

I believe that’s the best but if they are well known by the stage name it should also be mentioned. The personal life section of McCool’s article for example sates She married fellow wrestler Mark Calaway, known professionally as The Undertaker, on June 26, 2010, in Houston, Texas. Someone like that should satisfy both sides.--70.24.249.16 (talk) 20:35, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Shawn Michaels Good Article Reassessment

Shawn Michaels, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for an individual good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. --Whiteguru (talk) 12:36, 30 June 2021 (UTC)