Talk:El Salvador

Opening comments

Given the inability of whomever wrote major parts of this article to get these basic facts right, I think that the whole thing needs to be scrapped and re-written.

Jkp1187 20:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)jkp1187

This right. Even to the CIA (if you know your CIA history, you'll know they are rotten to the core) D'Aubuisson was TOO extreme, as labeled by Ambassador Robert White a "pathological killer", they funneled millions into Napoleon Duarte's campaign against him, to make sure that D'Aubisson, a supporter/mantainer of death squads, and who was the mastermind behind Monsignor Romero's death (among 30000 more attributed to "rightwing" groups either sanctioned or belonging to the government). In short, D'Aubisson did not win, because he was considered too volatile.

I do know my "C.I.A. history" and the C.I.A. has normally been dominated by what Europeans call "social democrats" and Americans call "liberals" - i.e. people who believe in a mixed economy - welfare state.

They oppose Marxism (indeed they have a history of fighting against Marxists), but the do not support a free enterprise system either. So to say that someone is "too extreme" for them gives the totally false impression that C.I.A. people are somehow "extreme".

Paul Marks.

Biased

I found the article very biased.

For example it was implied that conservatives came to power in El Salvador because of death squads, whereas in fact the conservatives won the elections because the noncommunist left (which was in power, in the person of President Duarte, from 1979 onwards with heavy American support - all things that the article just ignored) totally messed up the economy.

The policy of increasing government spending, nationalization and land theft ("land reform") produced after 1979 a fall in output at least on a par with the American Great Depression.

The economic failure of the noncommunist leftist Christian Democrats (Christian Democrats are very different in the context of El Salvador than they are in, for example, the Federal Republic of Germany) government (again I repeat that it was a leftist, although noncommunist, government that the United States supported after 1979) and the economic success of ARENA are just totally ignored by the article.

As for the war, claims from the usual suspects (the United Nations and so on) that only 2% (or whatever it was)of "human rights abuses" were committed by the Communists are only to be expected. As the old saying goes "when they kill us it is social justice, when we kill them it is a human rights abuse".

Overall it seems that various people are still upset that the Communists both lost the war and lost every election.

Paul Marks.

Completely agree with Paul Marks. For starters this page needs a neutrality warning. For example, the percentages related to Human Rights violations that are presented lack sources since a look at the report presented by the UN Truth Commision does not contain aforementioned figures. People who "contribute" to this page need to get keep their PoV out of Wikipedia articles since this is not a site that is meant to endorse or tarnish political parties.

Okay, I put the tyag on. please edit to remove the POV, SqueakBox 22:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I consider the two of you completely biased and ignorant. Now you'll tell me that Pinochet was a harmless gentle man. I would recomend all our readers to read the book by Kevin J. Middlebrook: " Conservative parties, the right, and democracy in Latin America" to see who STOLE LAND FROM WHOM. As this book establishes, historically in Latin America a region that suffered under caudillismo in which the "ruling elite", people with cash coming from the old world, or people that already had benefitted from the caste society legacy of the Spanish colonial times, purchased military rulers to shape their "local policies" to satisfy their very whims. It is thru this kind of strategy that every Latin American nation to this day was governed, if it weren't for leftsts insurgents that led to popular revolts to overthrow dictators. Most notable example should be Somoza from Nicaragua. Point is, that in this book, and if you dvelve into Salvadoran history, the people, the groups that STOLE LAND were the ruling elites. The owners of the banana, coffee, cotton, indigo plantations all through Latin America. With assistance of the military and sanctioned, they propped up "irregular armies", called in El Salvador "Guardia Nacional", for two specific purposes: expropiate communal land from natives and poor peasants, this in order to annex them to "haciendas" owned by the caudillo's patrons. Secondly, to make sure that the displaced population served the purpose of cheap manual labor, which even today serves as the only economical plus several Latin American countries posses, like El Salvador where remesas hold the economy, and the promise of "sweat shop paradise" has been stripped away due to even cheaper labor comming from Nicaragua and China.

Point is this, the elites, foreigners or "criolles" purchased the caudillos, created National Guards to round up as many colonatos, peasants to work on the haciendas, on the most horrid of conditions, with minimal pay. Who stole lands? The elites did. Duarte only meant to redistrubute toe land to their original owners, and he was not the ONLY man to promote land reform. A well known 2statesmen" and also part of the oligarchy, Mr. Enrique Alvarez, one of the legendary "14 families" of El Salvador" that thru purchasing governments, slaughters shaped the country to their whim to shape it into an hacienda-state, proposed a land reform. He even conducted it on his land as a "test plataform", but the greedy elites decided not to listen. Later on, Enrique Alvarez would go forward to form with technocrats the FDR (Democratic Revolucionary Force) with the intention of through peaceful ways mitigating the subhuman condition the majority of the population lived in due to the failed "policies" of the dictators. Unfortunately, he was slaughtered along with six of his companions, and this are just some of the many unanswered murders in that country. Not only that, but Duarte didn't govern with complete and total control. He also governed in a time where a country's whole economy only depends in a single cash crop, when the world prices go down so does the whole economy. This has happened historically in El Salvador, where everything went from depending on cacaco, to indigo, to cotton, to coffee. Every single time the economy slumps. Not only this, but as previously said... he had not total control. He governed under a military junta, meaning that it was a coalition with military men that served only the elites, their usual patrons. Truth of the matter is that Duarte's presidency was that of a "lame duck president", because he had no power over the country nor to make sure his policies were strictly followed. His only fucntion, is that USA had as a "guarantee" for continuing aid to have Duarte of President, that either way, went to the hands of military men/rightists death squads, that as this article says and the UN TRUTH COMISSION states, the death of THOUSANDS of women, children, and men. Liberal accounts estimate 75, 000 deaths, more conservative ones estimate 30,000, all too gross. In fact, I believe that this article is too light, too dismissive of El Salvador's past, and present, that I'm considering asking some fellow friends, who live in El Salvador do to a mayor overhaul. To touch on issues as the massive corruption that includes here, how El Salvador still fails to uphold human rights (just now there are hospitals that HAVE NO MEDICINES to treat leukemia, there are "municipios" with hospitals on hold, there are multibillionaire thefts by the "ruling" elite, the most famous case being Mathies Hill of Insepro/Finsepro fame, and a recent one involving ex-Salvadoran President Francisco Flores involved in a millionaire theft of ANDA (manages the national aqueducts and water sources), he had an artificial lagoon built in his property using ANDA equipment and finance.

Bellow I post some places I invite folks to check on, because this article is far too lacking: http://luterano.blogspot.com http://www.peaceworkmagazine.org/pwork/1100/112k11.htm (About Enrique Alvarez) http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/centralamerica.html

I would also recommend our investigative readers to search on "La Matanza", "Anastasio Aquino", "Farabundo Marti", "El Mozote", to gain information of how ancient and prevalecent is social strife in this petite country, all due to the inequity of the policies which continue to divide the rich and poor through an abyss, responsible for the migration and the 12 murders a day. Just a small info of Anastasio Aquni: He was a native american "caudillo" (very ironic) that in 1832 took to arms against criolle exploitation of the indiginous people. Farabundo Marti lead another revolt in 1932, and again ended with the death of 30 thousands of peasants and natives. Now to this day, the government ruled by ARENA, the same elite that purchased the caudillos in the past, adopted the "neoliberal system" to displace the government which now being "democratic" and not the totalitarism they fostered, doesn't 100% guarantee that they'll retain power, so they want to remove the state as much as possible as to not have it interfere with their policies, their monopolies. I would say that Paul is just too blinded by"Macarthunism" to understand the corruption, the burocracy, the darkness of Latin America history to provide a respected analysis.

I also want to clarify something, paul in his ignorance tries to smear all leftists all insurgents as "communists" as if that made them 1000% right thing to slaughter. Truth of the matter is, that theoligians, statesman, clergy, students, syndicalists, teachers, peasants, and even reformists generals were among those who were targeted by the pernicious, death-squad sponsor oligarchy.

Paul Marks from now on.

There is a long comment above claiming (for example) that I think that Pinochet was kind and gentle. And calling me various things (ignorant and so on).

There are so many subjects raised in the comment that it is not practical to reply to them all.

For example China is mentioned - without pointing out that the Marxist ruler Mao was the greatest mass murderer of human history (murdering even more people than his fellow Marxist Stalin - and vastly more that the National Socialist Adolf Hitler).

On land theft, if one traces land ownership back one can find theft in most countries (a possible exception is Iceland - where some farmers can trace their line back to the first people to settle the land).

However, that someone's great grandfather stole land (say from the Dakota - who in term stole it from some other tribe) does not give anyone else the right to rob the man now. "This is not yours because some of your forefathers where Spanish who only came to this land a few hundred years ago" is not a good argument.

However, the person has not disputed my basic point - i.e. that the "land reform" of Duarte in conjunction with his nationalizations and increase in government spending undermined the economy - THUS GREATLY INCREASING POVERTY.

It is odd that someone who claims to care about the poor should not care about the RESULTS of policies. To judge a policy simply by intentions (rather than results) and to even claim that such policies did not go far enough is rather odd (to say the least).

As for wages being forced down over time. I would refer the person to the statistics for any country since the industrial revolution - wages (contrary to the sub Marxism he was, no doubt, taught in college) have gone UP not DOWN.

On killing communists (really killing Marxists as one can believe in egalitarianism "communism" without being a Marxist, for example monks and nuns practice a form of egalitarianism, although some nuns in Central America did reject their traditional practices, adopted Marxism and tried to help in violently imposing it on other people - things did not go well for these nuns [really ex nuns as they had rejected their traditions]). Well if you start a war you can not complain about getting killed. As for the deaths of women - surely it is sexist to only kill male enemies. A more important point is whether enemies are armed or unarmed at the time of death. Although under the Geneva Convention an enemy who is unarmed may be killed as a spy (if this enemy is not in military uniform) I would consider it unethical to kill enemies who are captured unarmed, even if they are not in uniform. Although, of course, such things often happen in war (for example American soldiers sometimes killed German prisoners even though these enemies had been captured in uniform - and used torture to gain information). Still the fact that many (if not all) military and paramilitary forces have raped and killed in history does NOT make it right.

As for talk about "children and babies" - are we really going to extend this debate to abortion? As for the age of an enemy - it does not really matter if he is shooting at you.

On the "corruption" point. What noncorrupt governments are we talking about? There is plenty of corruption in (for example) Cuba and Venezuela, and (to be fair) the United States.

Basically the old mistakes are just repeated in the comment. For example if Marxists start a war it is a terrible thing to kill them (if you do not want to be killed do not start a war). And that increasing statism somehow reduces poverty (rather than increasing it over what it otherwise would have been).

Paul Marks.

Translate, please

This paragraph...

"The dollar also remarked a fallings tendency in the interest rates in El Salvador, helping many to become subjects of credit in order to buy a house or a car, and the sense of displease disappeared in time and is now only a political tool that is used by the political opposition when election are on sight."to let you know more you may be able to find other informartion on that yahoo account of elsalvadorboyzenfomstionne and we will be able to give you more detailed information thank you

...has some English grammar/vocabulary mistakes. I was trying to just fix it, but there are just enough mistakes that I'm not quite sure what it is trying to say. What is it trying to say?

-tried to fix it, hope I helped -jessica

lol. I was born in El Salvador and have no idea what it means. It's extremely confusing :) Guanaco152003 03:37, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I am an English speaker and I do not fully understand the paragraph. So a native Spanish speaker surely has no chance at all.

My guess (and it can be no more than a guess) is that the paragraph is dealing with the adoption of the United States Dollar as currency in El Salvador.

Clearly the expansion of the money supply in the United States would have the effect of creating a credit bubble not just in the United States but also in other countries (such as El Salavador) that also used the Dollar. And, yes, this would lead to problems.

However, most countries in Latin America that do not use the United States Dollar expand their own money supply even more than the United States does - so their credit bubbles are even worse.

Money supply inflation (not quite the same thing as "prices in the shops going up") and the boom-bust cycle it leads to, is one of the great curses of the world (particularly of Latin America - it is a great historical problem in most Latin American nations).

WARNING the above depends on an "Austrian School" understanding of economics, and may not be accepted by mainstream economists.

Paul Marks.

Football War

I merged the Football War entry into the paragraph. Please read the edit comment and article before shouting vandalism. -Mcfly 02:51, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC) Sorry Mcfly, I was overreacting because the article had been vandalised minutes earlier. Your change is fine.--Squiquifox 03:31, 19 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think we should add a link to a culture page. - tito

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Location map

The map image:LocationElSalvador.png can be added to the new El Salvador page when it is created in the format set out by WikiProject Countries. It is mentioned here so that whoever eventually makes the new page knows that the map already exists. - Vardion 09:44, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

US strategy in El Salvador

I found that this 12 years civil war was completely missed on the main article. [1] Read like a very sad history. For example, "There followed a bloody 12-year stalemate between the US-funded and organised Salvadoran army, and Cuban-backed guerrillas." and "Tens of thousands of those killed in the war were rebel sympathisers, tortured and murdered by the security forces. It was a well-organised, dirty war in which the CIA was heavily involved. I also found that this guy names Sever is like DA SUPA CHILLA of dem all...little gonden snub nosed maunkey!"

Country map

A controversy has erupted over the choice of map for this article. The two candidates are shown here, along with any others that other Wikipedians may choose to enter. Feel free to make any comments. The lower map may also appear in the corresponding Geography article for this country. Kelisi 16:48, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I support the lower Kelisi map, --SqueakBox 16:51, Apr 2, 2005 (UTC)

I support the first, upper, map. I remember the lower one looking horrible when shrunk down to fit in the article page. --Da 'Sco Mon 21:17, 2 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Map of El Salvador

File:Salvadormap.gif

Map of El Salvador

Map of El Salvador

Maya Lenca Culture

I just did some minor copy editing and formatting to this material. The same contributor left a related paragraph on the Pipil article, which was expanded fairly recently using mostly information from an El Salvador university web site. I believe the Maya Lenca would make a good separate article, as we did with Pipil. I would appreciate a review of the Pipil article (to see if the Spanish source was translated correctly) and any comments. WBardwin 08:18, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Romero?

Shouldn't there at least be a blurb in here about Oscar Romero? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Robgea (talk • contribs) 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Update: There is now, as all can see, a full article about Romero. Lawikitejana 03:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet allegations

While User:64.7.89.54 may well be Trey (I won't undo the redirect from the anon to Trey's user page instigated by 172), is there any evidence that he is blocked? SqueakBox 23:44, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

the dudes have not explained their position. i was under the impression that most killings were committed by the military, not the death squads. J. Parker Stone 01:09, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the record, I consider Mister Trey Stone refering to myself as a rv warraior to be a form of personal attack. In answer to his comment:

Members of the army, the Treasury Police, the National Guard, and the National Police formed "squads" to do away with enemies. Private and semi-official groups also set up their own squads or linked up with existing structures within the armed forces. It should be said that, while it is possible to differentiate the armed forces death squads from the civilian death squads, the borderline between the two was often blurred. For instance, even the quads that were not organized as part of any State structure were often supported or tolerated by State institutions. Frequently, death squads operated in coordination with the armed forces and acted as a support structure for their activities. The clandestine nature of these activities made it possible to conceal the State's responsibility for them and created an atmosphere of complete impunity for the murderers who worked in the squads. t should be said that, while it is possible to differentiate the armed forces death squads from the civilian death squads, the borderline between the two was often blurred. For instance, even the quads that were not organized as part of any State structure were often supported or tolerated by State institutions. Frequently, death squads operated in coordination with the armed forces and acted as a support structure for their activities. The clandestine nature of these activities made it possible to conceal the State's responsibility for them and created an atmosphere of complete impunity for the murderers who worked in the squads. UN Truth Commission on Salvadoran Death Squads El_C 08:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

if it makes you feel better, i've changed it. as for your retort, i do not see how this disproves that the military was directly responsible for most deaths, rather than affiliated death squads (which, while gaining notoriety for killing Romero and later the nuns, I don't believe killed near as many people) J. Parker Stone 08:32, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am not wrong, it was a form of perosnal attack, and stating: you're entitled to be wrong I suppose. if it makes you feel better certainly strikes me as similarly inflammatory. Finally, all that innuendo aside, your belief needs to be subtantiated with reputable, scholarly sources in order to adhere to Wikipedia's NPOV, Citing sources, and No Original Research. El_C 08:55, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

as does yours. the Truth Commission merely elaborates on how the death squads operated; it does not say that most deaths came from the death squads. J. Parker Stone 09:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That operation reveals much on that front. But I recall that 172 has already addressed it, we'll see what he and his sources has to say. El_C 09:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board

I would like to announce the establishment of the Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in. Guettarda 1 July 2005 04:00 (UTC)

Don't leave El Salvador any time soon

As it turns out, to leave the country you have to apply at the U.S. Embassy. glocks out 00:25, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

What? To who are you referring? SqueakBox 00:58, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

National Anthem

The title of the national anthem on this page and on the page linking the title should be changed from "Saludemos la patria orgullosos" because that is not the title of the anthem. The title is simply "Himno Nacional" or simply National Anthem.--Jorobeq 10:13, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I changed it to its official name: "Himno Nacional de El Salvador"

Adoption of Dollar

I dont know if this should be mentioned, but ive heard from many salvadorans that the adaptation of the dollar has negatively affected them. Many have told me that businesses and merchants price in dollars and most often give change in Colones. In another case, many businesses still pay in colones, and the value of their pay is significantly lower than what would be payed in dollars. I have no source on this because it is all first hand accounts of my salvadoran family members and their friends.--Jorobeq 18:36, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

This is not entirely true. The change to dollars first was not welcome by many. As time has passed, the dollars are the only currency now. It is rare to see any place with prices in colones, or that a business pays in colones. Colones are basically out of circulation. The only negative part about this, is that some things that previously cost below $1 (8.75 colones) now cost more. For example, you would pay about 1 colon ($0.11) for a public phone call, and now you would have to put a quarter (almost 3 colones). That is the kind of negative impact of the change from colones to dollars.

Black Salvadorans

"El Salvador is the only Central American country that has no black population." What...really? Can this for corroborated? Alex Dodge 23:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC) For clarification, I am asking for proof both that it has no black population and that it is the only such country in Central America.Alex Dodge 00:19, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

"El Salvador is the only country in Central America that does not have a Garifuna, Miskito or Afro-Antillean population. The other six republics have at least one, or all of these groups living within their borders. El Salvador’s connection with Africa goes back to a much earlier time, to the era of Spanish colonial rule. The latter migrations of African descended peoples settling in the other republics did not include El Salvador, and as a result Salvadorans will tell you that their country is the only one in Central America that does not have a “black population”. This is not all together correct. For over four and a half centuries the population of El Salvador has mixed its blood lines so completely into one multi-racial society that the remote African origins of some of its citizens are unknown even to those that have such a background. "[2] Can an expert please address this and possibly add to the article? Alex Dodge 07:30, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I read somewhere very recently but can't remeber where that a great percentage (more tha 50%) of the El Saklvadorean population haver black, ie African blood. The reason why El Salvador is seen as the only country without a black population that is either "indigenous" (inc Garifuna) or an essentially Caribbean/English speaking population or both is simply that El Salvador doesn't have an Atlantic coast, SqueakBox 16:10, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

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I'm Salvadoran, and I can tell you that there isn't a black community of any ancestry in El Salvador. Since Colonial times politics in El Salvador were such that blacks were not considered human (according to something I read on the original constitution), and were freed but vanished from salvadoran territory as a condition. ASIAN POPULATION? This is a new phenom in El Salvador, since the late 80's there has been an influx of mostly Chinese immigrants, I believe most stay after finding it dificult to migrate north to the US after crossing the Pacific Ocean in ships and running out of money. In the past few years, I've read in El Salvador's largest newspaper, that a couple of times a year El Salvador's immigration comes across a few dozen Chinese trying to cross the border inward with false documents.

There's a healthy Arab community too, in fact, the President of El Salvador (Antonio Saca) is of Lebanese ancestry.

El Salvador is becoming the most industrialized country in Central America, I traveled to El Salvador last year in March and in November 2005, and the new "freeway" type roads and public projects make it seem like a whole different country than the one I saw in the late 90's.

Another thing, El Salvador fast becoming a "consumer country", the remitances that flood the country are spent in tremendous Malls that actualy rival those here, like the Beverly Center. I could not believe how many Mall there are, and how big and luxurious they are built. So the government has to import Nicaraguan and Honduran labor workers to harvest the coffee and sugar cane crops because "no salvadoran wants to do hard labor" anymore. No one is saving their money nor investing it, or buying real estate.

I don't know how to add pictures to articles, but, could we please add more! Specially of the famous ladmarks as they are....

THE NATIONAL PALACE (Palacio Nacional) THE NATIONAL CATHEDRAL (Catedral Metropolitana) THE NATIONAL THEATER (Teatro Nacional) "TAZUMAL" Largest Mayan Pyramid in the country IZALCO VOLCANO, (it's image is the Folgers Coffe volcano) El Salvador is also known as the "Land of Volcanoes".

Plenty of pictures can be seen in www.4elsalvador.com

Dennis Sosa kenikex@aol.com

Name

Can someone confirm (or not) that the country's official and correct name is Republica de El Salvador en la America Central? Adam 03:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

No, of course it's not. José San Martin 00:17, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Then why does its coat of arms (and various other official-looking crests I have seen), call it that? File:El Salvador coa.png Adam 00:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

This refers to the fact that El Salvador is in Central America. The name is only "Republica de El Salvador". --Cirilobeto 04:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Black Salvadorans (continued)

El Salvador is known as not having a black community because there truly isn't a black populace in El Salvador, indigenous or otherwise. I visited El Salvador for two months in summer of 2005. The only black person I saw was at a Costco style market. He was a member of a U.S. athletic team (he and his teammates were wearing their U.S. national team gear). The reason there aren't any blacks in El Salvador is two fold. Before 1930 there weren't any blacks due to the fact that slave trade was conducted on the atlantic coast. Those slaves never made it inland all the way to El Salvador which is on the Pacific coast. However, General Maximilio Hernandez Ramirez, is more responsible for no blacks in El Salvador. When he came to power in 1930 he instituted laws that kept blacks out of El Salvador. If you ask Salvadorans why there aren't any blacks in El Salvador, they'll cite General Hernandez more than Atlantic slave routes. He was also the person responsible for killing thousands of indigenous Salvadorans rebelling against the govt in the 1930's. Due to this, El Salvador today has probably the most homogenous citizenry in the Americas. 90% of Salvadorans are mestizo. There aren't blacks, few indigenous people (1%) and some Europeans (9%).

I note the article makes no mention of Universities and other higher education. C. C. Perez 19:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

This article skewed some historical facts. It left out a critical step in the history of El Salvador as part of the United Provinces of Central America: Before the United Provinces of Central America were themselves independent, they were part of Mexico, from which the United Provinces of Central America declared their independence. --robert

--Pfontg 02:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC) This issue with blacks is squarely wrong. When slavery was abolished in El Salvador, most of the slaves were black if not all. You may even see paintings of the event, and the colors too. I believe, government policy was drawn back then to deter people of black, as well as oriental, origins to become Salvadorean citizens under the impression that they were prone to become slaves. Like all history in El Salvador, facts are scarce, and this is very difficult to substantiate. However, I can refer to my own family history: I was born Salvadorean, and so were my parents. My paternal granfather though, emigrated from China around 1916 when he was just 16 (I still have his birth certificate in Chinese). Later on, he was subject to an identity judicial proceeding to prove that he had in fact been born in El Salvador. Of course, he produced a fake Salvadorean birth certificate to prove it. If the initial policy after abolishing slavery was more of a deterring measure, it could be that General Hernandez strengthened this into law. However, rules in El Salvador mean pretty much nothing, and racial features are sometimes to obvious to dismiss. If you don't see blacks in El Salvador, it is because you are too used to see them in your own country, and that is the impression you have. Race is a rather bizarre term in El Salvador, most would only refer to "indio" and "white", but in fact the melting took place so long ago and to such an extent that you would need to run DNA tests to figure it out. As for the present, I am personally aware of several cases of mixed Salvadorean blacks, not counting the thousands of oriental (mostly Chinese) cases. So, I would simply delete the note regarding blacks, and if you really need to put something about it, please just say that black population is negligible, but not that there aren't any blacks in El Salvador. That is simply not true."--Pfontg 02:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

I know someone from El Salvador

I'm 13 years old, and I have a nanny who was born in San Rafael, Chalatenango, El Salvador. She's been with my family since my older brother was a few months old. User:Mewtwowimmer 8:28, 31 August 2006 (PCT)

So? What's your point?

Hey, don't bite the newcomers. Better to leave a note reminding what article talk pages are for — presumably posting a copy on the person's Talk page as well — and leaving a welcome message for the person so that s/he learns to make actual contributions to Wikipedia. If you try that, you may discover (as I did) that this user actually had made a lot of decent contributions by then, and simply wrote something well-intentioned but inappropriate on this page. Now, back to the article ... Lawikitejana 04:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

The vandalism on this page is horrible. I can see from the last revert that i miss some of the mistakes. I tried putting the article up for protection but got rejected. Jorobeq 05:08, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Water

El Salvador is 100% water? Jun-Dai 22:43, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Fixed, SqueakBox 18:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Charity

A list of charity sites is unjustifiable, better to have a link of local businesses who at least actively do good but as that isnt acceptable nor is spamming in charity sites in the external links, SqueakBox 17:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Asian Population

I'm from el salvador, and i've seen plenty of asian (mostly chinese) living in el salvador. the Demographics section should mention something of a small asian population in el salvador. Unknown User 15:41, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Cathlic percentage?

The country's people are overwhelmingly Roman Catholic (96% of the population). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I dont know why this is here, I have read many articles stating that, at the least, el salvador's Evangelical population has reached over 1 million, or around 15-18 percent of the total population. yes el salvador's majority is catholic, but not an overwhelming one

CATHOLISISM??? EVANGELICALS???--------------------------------------------------- Yes it is true that catholics are the majority in El Salvador. But there should be mention of the influnces and growing numbers of Protestant/Evangelical denominations.

There's no mention of the Evangelical Church, "Mision Cristiana Elim", which is the second largest congregational church in the world, second only to the church in Korea. The church has over 100,000 members plus. Jointly with other Evangelical congregations, they do probably surpass 1 million.

EL SALVADOR UNDER THE MEXICAN EMPIRE

• • • • • And this is important, the reason why Salvadorans prefer to omit the fact that after gaining Independence from Spain and before forming the United Provences of Central America, Central America was part of the Mexican Empire under Iturbide for just about the period of one year. We Salvadorans historically don't recognize that union because we were forced to it. Conservative factions in the Capital Guatemala City practically sold us all to the Mexican Empire, even though the State of El Salvador protested, and even took up arms to fight it.

A little known fact is that during that period, the State of El Salvador opposed the union to the Mexican Empire so much, that Jose Matias Delgado sent a letter to the President of United States asking him to allow El Salvador to join the United States as a territory or commonwelth, or even a State. This is a documented fact. El Salvador fought with arms, unsuccesfully, the union of Central America to the Mexican Empire. Guatemala sent troops to San Salvador to subdue the uprising, and so did Mexico.

That is why til today, there is a city called "Mejicanos" in the northern section of San Salvador, because that is where the Mexican troops camped out to plan out the seige of San Salvador. The State of El Salvador was subdued, and was forced to join the rest under the Mexican Empire. One year later that Empired collapsed. Out of the 5 States (Guatemala, Honduras, El Salvador, Ncaragua and Costa Rica) El Salvador was the only one that opposed that union. Notice how around that period Guatemala inverted its flag from the traditional Central American Federal flag horizontal "blue, white, blue", to vertical bands of "blue, white, blue" to mimic the Mexican flag.

El Salvador's constitution still calls for the re-unification of the Federal Union, and it's national coat of arms plainly recognizes that Union with 5 volcanos and five Federal Flags. (so does Nicaraguas)

• • • • • The HISTORY secion should be divided into (sugestion) "Ancient History", "Pre-Columbian History", "Colonial Period", and "Modern History". It makes it more organized instead of throwing it all out there in one whole long paragraph.

Dennis Sosa-Jule

References

Where did you get all these facts? do you have a point of reference we can look at it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alfiboy (talk • contribs) 19:11, 5 December 2006 (UTC). My bad alfiboy 19:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC) ________________________________________________________________________

Alfiboy, I read, and read, and read. Every time I visit El Salvador I go to the universities, the National Library, and I kidnap my cousin's histroy books.

There are so many facts that secular folk miss. Did you also know that El Salvador was the ONLY nation to actively do something to save a few thousand Jews from death during the Holocaust? There's a book..."the man who stopped the trains". During WWII, thousands of Hungarian Jews were saved...

"This book reveals the previously unknown story of the greatest single rescue effort during the Holocaust -- the rescue of more than 140,000 Jews of Budapest. This rescue was led by George Mantello, a Jewish diplomat in the Salvadorian Consulate in Geneva, Switzerland. Mantello, who had provided thousands of Jews with valuable protective Salvadoran citizenship papers, initiated and orchestrated an extraordinary Swiss press and church campaign that finally revealed to the world the horrors of Auschwitz and the Hungarian deportations. These public expressions evoked warnings by Roosevelt, Churchill, the Pope, and the King of Sweden, who then dispatched Raoul Wallenberg. Under worldwide pressure, the Regent of Hungary halted deportations on July 7, 1944. The neutral diplomats in Budapest finally fought to save embattled Jews from Eichmann's ceaseless efforts to complete the Final Solution."

The government of El Salvador authorized the immediate citizenship of thousands of Jews so that they may be spared. While other countries turned them away by the boat loads.

Dennis S.J>

Crime

el salvadors crime info posted on here is all false i live here and i have family members that work for the government and they do have read this page and are outraged with the article and as soon as they get time to will let it be known that the crime section of this article is false! honduras and guatemala are alot more dangerous and have had more deaths this year than el salvador

The new portal of El Salvador

Dearest editors to the Wikipedian El Salvador article,

The official Salvadoran portal is here! Please feel free to edit it. It could use some help from other editors, as I am the only person who maintains it (so far). Thank you so much! BashmentBoy 14:40, 30 November 2006 (UTC)BashmentBoy

Black Salvadorans (continued...)

I'm from El Salvador and I assure you that stating "El Salvador has no blacks in it" isn't terribly inaccurate. I realize some of you may take offense to this since you are American and try and be as race sensitive as possible but its simply a fact that we have no blacks. I personally didn't know what race was until I came to the US, but when I asked my parents why there were no blacks in El Salvador they told me that the government didn't allow them into the country and if they did come in they would be shot (not too far from the actual truth). Its not racist, we're simply the only country in the New World without a black population, I don't get why this is such a shock to some of you. We have had noticeable Chinese immigration though.

OK people. There are no black Salvadorans

I totally agree with the previous comment. There's no black population in El Salvador. I had lived in El Salvador all my life until 3 years ago when I moved to Toronto, Canada, which is one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. I was quite happy to make Black, Asian, South Asian and Arab friends since population in El Salvador is very homogeneous. 90% European-Amerindian, 1% Amerindian and 9% White are good approximate figures. It's true that there has been an influx of people from China, Korea and the Middle East, but these numbers are negligible.

Someone said before that 50% of Salvadorans could trace their ancestry to Africa. I made some reaserch and that's true for people from "Salvador, Brazil". These people are called Salvadorans, just as people from New York are called New Yorkers, but they are Brazilians just as New Yorkers are Americans.

The following is just a personal opinion, therefore I have nothing to back it up. This is what I have seen after living in El Salvador all of my life. The absence of black ancestry can be observed in the Salvadoran culture which is rather submissive and less energetic when compared to countries that have a large Black population like Cuba, Brazil and the Dominican Republic. I remember seeing some 80 year old ladies dancing in the street when I went to Cuba a couple of years ago and I thought: "Wow, There's no way old people in El Salvador would ever do that".

El Salvador's culture is by far more similar to Chile's and Eduador's culture than to the Caribbean's culture. Why? Again, there's no black people in El Salvador and there's just a small Black population in these other countries. Food is like the 90% of El Salvador's population: mixed. There are a lot of dishes with European ingredients (like cheese) and Amerindian ingredients (corn). The African element is missing here as well. There's no African-Salvadoran dish.

Some people said above that in 400 years before a law against black people was implemented, there were black people in El Salvador who ended up mixing with the rest of the population. I took high school in El Salvador and I don't remember ever reading about African slaves in El Salvador in my history class. It would be great if people who said that could provide a website or any tipe of reference that can back that up.

I remember reading a study that said that thousands of British people had some sort of African ancestry, but they look "white" so no one could ever tell they have black ancestry unless they took a DNA test. These people aren't considered black, because their features are white. No Salvadorans look black, so they shouldn't be considered black. U.S. laws are weird about that. If you have one drop of "coloured" blood, you're considered to be non-white even if you look white. I personally believe the U.S. racial classification system is extremely subjective. People and countries all over the world have totally different and valid interpretations about race and racial classification.

Blacks in El Salvador

Many of the posts on this subject go to great lengths to dispell that there are no Blacks in El Salvador. There probably are no visible signs of people considered "Black," but does that mean there is no connection to Africa whatsoever in Salvadorenos? Does this lineage only subscribe to Amerindian and European mixtures soley because there is no Caribbean coastlines? What prevented free blacks from entering El Salvador prior to 1930? I posit that in some areas of El Salvador that there was a blurring of lines between Amerindians and Africans. Probably not in grand numbers, but to some extent. No there may not be any visible signs of "Blackness" in El Sal, but there had to have been some intermixture of African blood and Amerindian blood.

As an encyclopedia we only deal with information that is sourced from experts so source this and we can put it in the article. Of course there will be some black people in El Salvador but if there are only a tiny number it wouldnt be notable enough to mention, SqueakBox 15:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Proposed WikiProject

In my ongoing efforts to try to include every country on the planet included in the scope of a WikiProject, I have proposed a new project on Central America at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Central America whose scope would include El Salvador. Any interested parties are more than welcome to add their names there, so we can see if there is enough interest to start such a project. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:05, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Blacks in ES continued

Another Salvadoran here, and i can say that the first time i saw a black person was on a trip to Belize and of course later on when i arrived in the United States. I believe that El Salvador never had African slaves because its not on The atlantic and i am aware that General Hernandez prohibited Africans to enter the country after 1930 for some period of time. But i do believe that at some time after or during slavery and before 1930 a small number of Africans may have entered the country and mixed in with the native populations but we simply classified their descendants as native origin even though i have noticed darker skin tones and wider facial features in some so called "indios" while others have a more Asian descendant look. --Javierbaires1 05:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)Javierbaires1

Suggestion for Pupusas to be added to article

I suggest that a section of this article also speak about or nations food specifically Pupusas being that most non-Salvadorans love to eat them.

crime #2

many things written on the crime section of the article are completely false or more accurately not up to date countries do get better you know... i would suggest you do research on this year and im over 150% youll come to find that el salvador is the 3rd violent country in central america, honduras holds the 1st place and guatemala takes 2nd place

• Until some sources arrive for the Crime section, I feel it should just be removed entirely since it sounds awkward right now. JuJube 05:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

I will be in El Salvador (San Salvador area and La Paz [Coast and Zacatecoluca] and possibly other areas) Feb 17-25 during my dad's hometowns patron saint ceremony (saint aloysius gonzaga). Anyone have suggestions for possible pictures i can take or places so i can be on the lookout? Jorobeq 08:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

There are several here: Srice13 02:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Tourism Section

The tourism section is horrible Jorobeq 00:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but you should give that poor editor a break. They were "told to add some references", probably by a boss with little understanding or concern for wiki principles. This person could lose their job if their not allowed to put something up. Is there anyway we can make it more encyclopedic, and less like a department of tourism brochure? (At least a portion of the pasted text may have come from here: [3] Srice13 02:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. As annoying as the repeated posting of POV material is, this editor is really trying to contribute, and he did try to listen to us by putting some references into the last version, weak though they were. I posted on his talk page a couple of days ago to try to encourage him to work on the piece a bit more. I'm not too far removed from being a newbie myself, and I think it would be a shame to discourage a clearly inexperienced but well-meaning contributor. We wiki-know-it-alls tend to be a bit imperious in our attitudes toward obvious newbie mistakes. Feeeshboy 06:34, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's violating WP:BITE to ask that contributions be written with some semblance of readability. JuJube 05:37, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

help with Tourism section

can someone please help and contribute to the tourism section i want to add to this article here is a newspaper article about tourism: http://www.sbpost.ie/breakingnews/breaking_story.asp?j=13442764&p=y344z8yx&n=13442852&x= here is an article written by a british guy http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/47/ElSalvador_Living.html

Population?

The number 6.9 seems to be inaccurate by now. El Salvador has a high birth rate so it seems that is surpassed the 7,000,000 mark a while ago. Manic Hispanic 07:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)