Talk:Saladin

Confusion in the article about his name

Was his name Salah al Din or Salah ad Din? -- Euyyn

Or Salah ud Din? Depends on the transliteration...those are all acceptable. As far as I understand it, al- can be assimilated to ad- in Arabic (or an-, or as-, or ar-, depending on the next part). Adam Bishop 15:46, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

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Its pronounced Salah addin because the din starts with a dahl which is a sun letter, therefore it negates the l sound. the sun letter also has the effect of doubling its sound with al ----

An event mentioned in this article is a May 22 selected anniversary

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what is the name of the epic poem about saladin, and who wrote it? and who else did dante include among the virtuous pagan souls? Kingturtle 17:29 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

Saladin as a Kurd

Further references of Saladin as a Kurd can be found in Robert Fisk's "The Great War for Civilisation" on page 625 he states, "....twelfth-century Kurdish warrior, Saladin..." ~~ CidTheGod

Conflicts with the claim "Kurds never had a state" I know little about the man so please enlighten me --Cool Cat ^{My Talk} 16:48, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well he was ethnically Kurdish, but he didn't rule an independent Kurdish state, it was more like an empire consisting mostly of Turks and Arabs, and some Kurds (and various other people). Adam Bishop 20:36, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

For the 19th-century idea that every ethnic group deserved its own state, see Romantic nationalism. Saladin's career was broader than his mere ethnicity. --Wetman 20:57, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Eyyubi Dynasty (1171-1252)

(The following material posted by [[User:144.122.250.231] relating to the Turkish dynasty founded by Saladin commonly referred to in English as the Ayyubid dynasty, gives a vivid impression of the intensity of race-based Turkish nationalism in Turkish popular history. The text has been copied and pasted from the website below.)

PS: The historians never mention about the intensity from Turkey's enemies of erasing the turkish history. The turkish nationalism should and can not be associated with distorted history!

One of the dynasties established by the Turks in the history is the Eyyubi dynasty. This Turkish State has been known as Eyyubi State in the history due to the name of the father of Selahaddin who was the founder of this dynasty. Today, it has been alleged that this Turkish State pertained to an artificial nation in the region with the substitution of the history that they did not have at all. The principal reason for this situation results from the lack of the determination about the lineage of the family before Eyyub's father. Therefore, some historians have been under the influence of the contemporary historians of the period with Arabian roots that tried to relate this dynasty with Arabian identity pursuant to the death of Selahaddin (1193). Therefore, they also tried to relate the origin of Selahaddin Eyyubi with the Arabian identity. On the other hand, particularly the separatist elements and their ideologies allege that this dynasty pertain to any other nation apart from Turks in order to create a new national history for themselves.

Considering the historical realities, we can observe that these allegations do not have any effective basis. The geographical region on which the state was founded is Egypt and its environs. Although most of the people were Arabians, the middle class and the administrative class were under the control of the Turkish majority. Tolunoglu Ahmed had established his own dynasty in the same region before (875) and this dynasty survived until the year of 905.

Tolunoglu Ahmed had manufactured its own dynasty in the same region forwards (875) and survived this dynasty until the year of 905. In which region truely this dynasty????????? Most probably in westChina or Siberia !

Afterwards, another Turkish commander, Muhammed Ebu Bekir had established a dynasty called as Ihsidi in the history and this dynasty established dominion in the region between the years of (935-969). Both of the Turkish dynasties had emerged as a result of the policy of Abbasi caliphate that provided the excessive employment of Turkish commanders and Turkish soldiers in the army. Ihsidi State was abolished by the Shiite Fatimi State and Selahaddin Eyyubi came to Egypt as a Turkish commander of Nureddin Mahmud Zengi who was the Tutor of Mosul and abolished the Shiite Fatimi State (1171). Until the death of Nureddin Mahmud to which he had been submissive (1174), Selahaddin had acted as a governor of Nureddin Mahmud. Then, he declared his independence. Izzeddin Aybeg who abolished the Eyyubi Turkish State and established the Turkish Mameluke State in its place was also one of the Turkish commanders in the Turkish army of Egypt. These historical facts obviously indicate that the army and the dynasty were under the dominion of Turks although most of the people were Arabians in the state.

Most of the members of Eyyubi dynasty had had the ancient Turkish names. The name of Selahaddin's brother was Turanshah. The names of his younger brothers were Tugtekin and Böri. The name of Selahaddin's maternal uncle was Sihabeddin Mahmud b. Tukus. Selahaddin's mother was a real Turk. Similarly, one of the wives of Selahaddin, Ismatuddin Amine who was the daughter of Unar Bey was also Turk. His two sister's husbands were also Turks. One of them was Unaroglu Sadeddin Mesut; and the other was Muzafferüddin Gökbörü.

The most conclusive evidence indicating that the Eyyubi dynasty is a Turkish dynasty is the eulogy that Ibn Senâül-mülk, one of the contemporary poets of the period wrote pursuant to the capture of Aleppo by Selahaddin. In one of the couplet of this eulogy, the poet states that:

"Arabian nation became sublime with the state of the Turks. The matter of Ehl-i Salip (the Crusades) was eradicated by Eyyub's son."

The state organisation of the Eyyubi dynasty is the same organisation that was firstly initiated in the Karahanli and Gazneli Turkish states and then developed in the Seljuk States. Tue Sultan, Divan, Meşveret, in other words, the General Assembly, Ustazüddar (the person that manages the duties related with the palace administration, vine works, flavour works, etc.), and the palace organisation including the posts of Registy of inheritance, Armourers, emirahur (emir of colonels), jurisdictional judges for the suits, el-mükebbis (legal official), taşdar (governor of district), the posts of sergeant, etc. are the continuation of the Turkish-Islam states. As it is well known, the institution of chief military judge that managed the administration of justice also remained as the same in the Ottoman State.

The Turkish slaves that were called as Tavasi constituted the foundation and the majority basis of the Eyyubi army. This Turkish army were named in accordance with the commanders to which they pertained such as el-Nuriyye, el-Esediyye, el-Necmiyye, el-Salâhiyye, etc. Among the commanders of this army composd of Turkish Slaves in the period of Selahaddin, there were some Turks such as Bahaeddin Karakûş, Şerefeddin Karakuş el-Takavî, Izzettin Cavlı, Şarimüddin Kutluaba, Hüsameddin Sungur el-Halâtî, etc.

As it is known, one of the symbols of the sovereignty was the flag. The flag of Eyyubi State was in the colour of yellow. Its emblem was the eagle. Eyyubi dynasty had followed the Turkish traditions and they had adopted the colour of light yellow as the colour of their domination. Furthermore, they had included the eagle as a Turkish emblem in their flag. The eagle has also been used as the symbol of the state in Seljuk States, and Artuklu State apart from Eyyubi State.

One of the other symbols of the Turkish sovereignty was the military band of musicians. The military band has also been used in the palace of Eyyubi State in accordance with the Turkish traditions and they would blow trumpets and attract great respect. Moreover, Selahaddin provided the marriage of one of his favourite concubines with the chief bandsman who was one of the high-rank officials in the palace and he showed the respect and value that he attached to this institution.

In the period of the lifetime of Selahaddin, the Eyyubi dynasty had a characteristic quality of a great Turkish-Islam state. Pursuant to the death of Selahaddin, the state was shared among his sons and brothers. Turanshah who was the last Eyyubi ruler in Egypt was annihilated by Aybeg, one of the Turkish Mameluke commanders (1250).

Salah ad-DIN Jusuf ibn Ajub a Turk???????????????

Eyyubi a Turkish dynasty????????????????????????

Such a muck writes which weak head????????????????

Mameluke protect slaves from different Volker the earth! Eyyubi truely and remains a Kurdish dynasty! Salah ad-DIN Jusuf ibn Ajub is a Kurd!

source:http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_02_15.htm

Well seeing real ignorant comments here shocked me. Selahaddin Eyyübi was brought up in a Saracen family, with having Turkish relatives (the Turkish relatives can even be traced back to their Turkish tribes). Saying that he was a Kurd is ridicilous since if sth is going to be said about him, it is that he is Saracen. For the ones who do not know(!) who Saracens are just read some history first. Wikipedia is a source that is referred to too much, and bias will kill it if not removed. There is this tendency by Kurdish people to refer to every non-Turkic, non-Arab Muslim community as Kurds, I am sorry my friends but this is not true.. I am not a person of nationalism or.. whatever you would call (I even do not believe in discrete distinctions of ethnicity in a geographical region), the only thing I would like here to be maintained is anti-biased info.. Well I know that Kurdish people want some symbols in history that they can relate to but they should be somehow related to reality(!). PKK even took it to an extent that they built a mosque in Germany called Selahaddin Eyyübi mosque..

Saladin is not Turk that can also the whole world confirm. The Turks maintain the Prophet Mohammed is a Turk. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Prophet Mohammed is Turk, Saladin is Turk, The whole world are Turks Ha ha ha ha ha ha You have forgotten that the Turks of Mongolia to come. who is its Turkish relatives of saladin, you turken since really sad people Except that you are lie near a large. Kurdish worker's party is a communist party and worries not about Islam you lie near. That build from Selahaddin Eyyuebi mosque in Hamburg and Berlin as well as other cities Germany the Hereketay Islamay Kurdistan (Islamic movement in Kurdistan/Turkay) financed.

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--- Turkish Prime minister said Prophet Mohammed is a Turk ha hahahahaahahahahahahah You understood well

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If someone is claiming that Saladin was something else than a Kurd, I would like to see some references to back that stance (the one above might appear to be a bit biased). It is the common belief among historians that he was indeed a kurd. --Tokle 18:09, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Saladin's Death

I'm a little bit confused. It says in the article that he died in 1171, yet when you visit the link for May 22 Selected Anniversaries at the top of this page, it says that the Hash-assasins tried to murder him in 1176. If he died in 1171, then how could they attempt to kill him 5 years later. Either the article or the anniversaries page needs to be fixed. --Zeerus 18:53, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

1171 refers to the death of the Egyptian caliph, which I suppose may be unclear at the moment. I'll fix it. Adam Bishop 07:35, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. I figured that out a little bit after I posted it, but I guess it owuld be confusing to people who aren't paying attention. --Zeerus 21:35, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

knighthood

Are there any historical proof to Gibbon's claim that Saladin had recieved a christian knighthood? --Tokle 14:23, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

In Decline and Fall vol. 6, chapter lix, part i:"his military character was established by the defence of Alexandria; and, if we may believe the Latins, he solicited and obtained from the Christian general the profane honors of knighthood." Gibbon's source was a chronicle; it would be more believable from an Arabic source.--Wetman 17:37, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

But, Arabic sources would probably be reluctant to mention it if it was true, wouldn't they? (I'm sorry if this might seem prejudiced, that is not my intention). --Tokle 13:16, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

That's from the Itinerarium et Gesta Regis Ricardi, he was supposedly knighted by Humphrey II of Toron. Nicholson, the translator, has a note to the effect that it is a bunch of crap :) Adam Bishop 03:00, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Please look. Kurdish - Saracen - Turkish issue

Before making any changes over this debate please get rid of all your prejudices, ok? I do not understand but anglo-saxon people seem to enjoy bias. John Kenney removed Shirkuh's being a Turkish statesman.. Do not get funny.

Please admire history

thanks for that! Get a grip people. The guy was from a Kurdish origin which means he was a speaker of a Kurdish dialect. The issue involved is not whether the state he was born in was part of Turkic or Kurdish or Persian or whatever kingdom. The reference is to his own ethnic and linguistic background. He was working for Nureddin Zangi, which was a Turk in origin. The fact is, those ancient people where much more open minded than us "moderns".--Khodadad 02:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea what's going on

Every source I have ever seen on Saladin (and Shirkuh), says that the family was Kurdish. This is the basic historical consensus - the Ayyubids were a Kurdish dynasty.

The burden of proof is on those who want to claim that Saladin was a Turk (an idea I have never heard before...). What evidence is there? Are there any historians (preferably non-Turkish ones) who have advanced this idea? On what basis? And I have no idea of this "Saracen" thing - the term Saracen is archaic, and is no longer generally used. When it is used, it is used to mean Arabs, which Saladin was not.

The idea of Saladin being a Turk seems wildly unlikely to me. Basically, every other dynasty in the area, aside from the Fatimids and the Abbasid caliphs, was Turkish. If the Ayyubids were also Turkish, why would they be constantly called Kurds? It is not as though the Turkish domination of the Near East in the 11th and 12th centuries is a matter which has been generally ignored by historians.

(To toot my own horn a bit, I should note that I have an impeccable record of integrity and impartiality on these matters, having previously argued in favor of saying that the Safavids were a dynasty of Turkish origins). john k 05:58, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Have you read the Öz Türkler article cited above? http://www.ozturkler.com/data_english/0003/0003_02_15.htm --Tokle 19:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

That site is not a trusted source, and in it history was mixed with heavy nationalist ideas. In the case of Ayyubid and saladdin this site mentioned just some turkish names that belong to this family , while none of the sources that deal with history of this family have never mentioned these names(I mean apart this site you can not find these names in anywhere). At the moment Arabic version of the wikipedia has extensively used the original sources and it confirms that Saladdin and his family were kurds.

What happened to Al-Adid?

This page says he died in 1171, but the Ayyubids article says he was deposed - anyone know?

He was not deposed, he gave up his rule over Syria in favour of his son, Al Malik ul Zaher. --Khodadad 02:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Star Trek Reference

Here's the external link for the Star Trek reference. It is http://www.memory-alpha.org/en/index.php/USS_Saladin

I just wasn't sure how to properly cite it in the article itself, so I'm posting the link here in the talk page. Longshot14 20:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Arabic Name

In the first sentence the Arabic version of his name transliterates as: Al din Yusuf bin Ayyub Salah. Is this correct? It doesn't conform to the transliteration that is there and seems like a fragment. Ashmoo 01:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

I think it must have to do with the way your browser splits the line. The Arabic version of the page has it correct, but the Arabic characters in the English version are split funny, due to the browser treating them like English words left-to-right, rather than Arabic right-to-left. That's a terrible explanation, I admit, but one that makes sense if you try typing in Arabic for just a few words around the end of the line in MS Word. My browser makes the same mistake, but with the mix-up happening at a different point. The Frog 18:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Me too...mine says "ibn Ayyab Salah ad-Din Yusuf". Adam Bishop 20:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

ignorance

According to Kurdish history book Şerefname(1597), the name of Selahaddin's brother was Turanshah. The names of his younger brothers were Tugtekin and Böri. these names is Turkish.

so Saladin is a Kurd but Selahaddin's brother is Turk. is that true? :)))

I have a Hebrew name, therefore I must be Jewish! Adam Bishop 03:26, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

This comparison is not right, as you can have Christian (i.e. Hebrew) names, all the Muslims, regardless of their ethnic identities, certainly have Arabic names. But, so far I never heard any Kurd taking a Turkish name. This is not normal, so if it's a reality, this issue should be researched. --85.96.167.247 18:19, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Right on. Turanshah, Tugtekin and Bori are pagan Turkic names therefore they wouldn't be used by Kurds or Arabs, especially during those times. It would be like having a Jewish prophet with an ancient pagan Viking name. Kurds and Turks lived together in that area and I believe the reason why Saladdin is considered to be Kurdish is purely political.

Not really. The fact that today his origin is being vied by Turks, with only one source (not a current or published source for all to access and see, thus verify) is untenable. He was clearly Kurdish and born in Dvin (The Rare and Excellent History of Saladin, Bahā'al-dīn Ibn Shaddād,trans D.S. Richards, Ashgate 2002, p17) is an open and well known fact that this day, Kurds are proud of. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spartan King (talk • contribs) 01:18, 25 February 2007 (UTC).

Salah

How is the Salah part of Salah al-Din written in Arabic?

Rabukurafuto 22:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

صلاح, if your computer can see the Arabic letters; the letters are saad, the laam-alif ligature, and haa, if that helps. Adam Bishop 23:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

about the name

actually saladin's birth name is Yusuf ,that's his name .the part "Salah ud din" is not a name it's a title,like in the cas of the "Lionheart" part in the name of Richard I.

Image

The arabic Wikipedia seems to have a much better main image. If someone can translate the image page and confirm that it is in fact a free image, it should be uploaded and used as the main image here. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 01:55, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Saladin's sister and Raynald of Chatillon's Execution

Too many people have seen Kingdom of Heaven and assume that it is historical fact. Someone edited this article and said that Raynald of Chatillon was executed partly for killing Saladin's sister (as seen in the movie when her caravan was attacked and she was killed). In actuality this contradicts Arabic sources which state that her caravan's security was increased and travelled without incident. Saladin disliked Raynald because of his attacks on Hajj pilgrimage caravans in blatant disregard for an agreed upon treaty. This led to Saladin veiwing Raynald as dishonourable and worthy of death.

People need to stop thinking that Hollywood is fact, and much more importantly stop editing Wiki articles and littering them with inaccuracies.

Removed citecheck template

The citecheck template is intended to flag articles where citations may misrepresent reference material. I see no discussion to that effect on this page and have removed the template. Please see Wikipedia:Cleanup resources if an editor here feels that some other template is needed, and please discuss these templates on talk. Durova 01:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Kurds, Turks, and names

So, now that we can all see that his father's family was Kurdish, I hope this will stop the endless disputes about his ethnicity. However, it is entirely possible that his mother was a Turk. But, since we don't know anything about his mother or her family, we cannot speculate (maybe Ayyub had a Kurdish wife and brought her with him to Tikrit? Maybe she was Arab, or Persian, who knows). If his brothers seem to have Turkish names, perhaps that is because Ayyub was in the service of the Turks. I don't know if modern Kurds purposely avoid giving their children Turkish names, but obviously the situation was much different in the 12th century. We also cannot speculate on Ayyub's reasons for giving his children the names he gave them. So, can all parties agree that the question has been solved to the best of our abilities? Adam Bishop 15:26, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not about avoiding, Muslims all around the world use Arabic names as they tend to think anything Arabic is/can be Koranic - therefore Islamic. Names used by Saladdin's siblings were pagan Turkic names which at that time would not be used by non-Turks. Also Saladdin's mother being Turkish, father being Kurdish would still make him "Turkic".

What makes Saladdin 'Saladdin' is not his ethnic background but his personality.He could even be Greek, Asyriac or even Hebrew who happened to have Turkish named siblings and have fought for Muslims. I just think some people just can't take the fact that he could be Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by L Rothen (talk • contribs)

How do you know those names wouldn't be used by non-Turks? Are Kurds not allowed to give their children supposedly Turkish names, at any point in history, ever? And we don't know anything about his mother, or even if he had the same mother as his brothers. It is not so radical and disturbing that he could be Turkish...the world would not collapse because people couldn't handle such a disturbing revelation. We just do not know. We do know that his father was a Kurd and that no contemporary or near-contemporary claims him as anything but a Kurd. Adam Bishop 14:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with L Rothen. Khan is a widely used name which came essentially from the Juan Juan Mongols, yet it used by South Asians also as a name and a title. Does this signify Turkic ancestry also?!

Saladin's Home

I know Saladin was a highly active military ruler who had to travel frequently but there's no mention of his preffered home when not fighting crusaders or conquering other lands. What city/castle did he consider his home?

It is often mentioned that Saladdin had decided not to reside in a comfortable house but only to stay in tents until Jerusalem was saved --L Rothen 05:18, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Image of Saladin

in war against crusades the page shows that he had no mercy and excuted prisoners with happiness?! can you check the sources?

"Most of this renown for chivalry and mercy is more myth than fact, when judged against the oppression of Christians and minority sects in Egypt and mass executions of prisoners of war and enslaving of other prisoners." Vandalism?

-sakredfire

I have the source on the event of Saladin having joy on his face while the Templars and Hospitallers were executed.

Here is the quote from Saladin’s secretary himself, Imad ad-Din, from the Ibid, page 138. This occurred two days after the Battle of Hattin.

“He (Saladin) ordered that they should be beheaded, choosing to have them dead rather than in prison. With him was a whole band of scholars and Sufis and a certain number of devout men and ascetics; each begged to be allowed to kill one of them, and drew his sword and rolled back his sleeve. Saladin, his face joyful, was sitting on his dais; the unbelievers showed black despair.”

Saladin was an honorable man, but like so many men of his day, was also capable of brutal acts of violence. Mk26gmls 14:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Why does the above quote from Imad ad-Din keep being deleted from the article on Saladin? What is the problem with this quote? It is documented in several sources. In the book Saladin, The politics of the Holy War by Malcolm Cameron Lyons and D.E.P. Jackson, they quote Imad ad-Din again on page 265 that Saladin had second thoughts about the Templars and Hospitallers being allowed to live. Hence the executions of 2 days after the battle. Some of the captives that were already sent to Damascus were killed there after the execution order was received from Saladin. Imad ad-Din wrote that since they could get no ransom for them nor would they be put to use in captivity, they were killed on Saladin's orders. Imad ad-Din then tells his readers that Saladin enjoyed the executions. This isn't from a Latin scribe. Noted in Saladin by Lyons and Jackson, they cite also; Sana 349 sq.; cf. Fath 28. Mk26gmls 19:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

In addition to the quote above, I believe this quote by Baha ad-Din from the Ibid, page 101, also shows Saladin in a different light. I propose that this quote be added to the article. It was made before Saladin recaptured Jerusalem.

While I (Beha ad-Din) was standing thus Saladin turned to me and said: "I think that when God grants me victory over the rest of Palestine I shall divide my territories, make a will stating my wishes, then set sail on this sea for their far-off lands and pursue the Franks there, so as to free the earth of anyone who does not believe in God, or die in the attempt."

He of course never got his chance with defending his conquests and dying so soon after Richard's departure from the Holy Land.Mk26gmls 21:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The context of these quotes is somewhat misrepresented. Salah-al Din enjoyed killing the Templars and Hospitallars because they killed his men, not because they were Christian. He wanted to pursue the Franks and called them Godless not due to their religion, but due to their behavior which was at odds with their religion. When did Saladin percecute the Copts? How about the Jews? Be more objective, pretty please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sakredfire (talk • contribs) 11:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Sakredfire

The only one here not being objective is yourself. How are the quotes misrepresented? Where did I say Saladin executed prisoners because they were Christian? I did not say that. Maybe your own bias is making you see things that aren't there. In regards to the Coptic Christians and Jews in Egypt, I am not aware of any persecution by Saladin of either group. On the contrary, he used them in his administration. In "Saladin - The Politics of the Holy War" by Lyons & Jackson, pg 56, a quote by 'Al-Makhzumi wrote that clerks in the Dwan al-Harb were usually Jews, while taxation clerks were usually Christian Copts. He added: "as Christians and Jews were unable to share rule with the Muslims, they shared with them in the general running of affairs, providing tax clerks, army clerks and doctors. I can only think that this is an affliction sent by Almighty God to test the Muslims"'.

Sorry you are having problems in dealing with Saladin's executions. Saladin not only executed members of the military orders, but other crusaders as well on numerous occasions. That is all the quotes listed above show. Most likely, even though we don't have exact numbers of deaths during this period, I would venture to say Saladin killed far more Muslims than Christians in his life time. Saladin was a very respected man, very generous and gracious at times, but like most men of his day, could be violent and ruthless.

Question for you: Saladin's executions at Hattin and Richard's executions at Acre. Is there a difference? Now be objective, pretty please.Mk26gmls 13:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Cultural depictions of Saladin

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I think this sort of information is better off in the main article, especially when there isn't very much information here yet. Adam Bishop 17:54, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I don't want to step on any toes so I'm suggesting this at core biographies and deferring to active page editors. Regards, Durova 19:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Possible vandalism?

In the section Rise to Power, there is written "Saladin revitalized the economy of Egypt, reorganized the military forces and, following his father's penis, stayed away from any conflicts with Nur ad-Din, his formal lord, after he had become the real ruler of Egypt." Unless there is a definition of penis which I don't know, I'm guessing that's not supposed to be there.

That was already reverted, so you shouldn't be seeing it... Adam Bishop 07:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The Divan of Ibn Sana Al-Mulk

The Dîwân of Ibn Sena El-Mulk (or Ibn Sana Al-Mulk) definitely calls The Ayyubid state as "Turkish State". Let's look what he says:

"The Arab nation has glorified with the Turkish State The Crusader's quest has been ended by the son of Ayyub"

This is the beginning of the Qasidah (a type of poem which is written when the poet intends to praise a statesman or holy people, Tr: Kaside) that is written and brought to Saladin after the war of Aleppo.

His Dîwân is published in Turkish, French and Arabic in Turkey and Beirut. But I don't know any English editions.

Also, Ibn Khaldoun, In his Muqaddimah, classifies Ayyubids And Mamelukes as one Turkish State. He adds, "After Saladin, The Turkish state has encouraged science. Cario has been one of the greatest centre of knowledge." Page 778.

All is translated by me. Because i don't have neither The Dîwân, nor the Muqaddimah in English. Someone can verify these in English.

As far as we know, the roots of his father's ancestors goes back to Yemen. If we look his ethnicity, then we can call him an Arab. But we know his familiy has migrated to Azerbaijan, where Turks and Kurds lived then. The historians at their time counts him Turkish (as his mother was a noble Turkish women, all of his brothers had Shamanistic Turkish names: Bori Turanshah, Tugtigin) and his state as Turkish State. Which seems to be related to the military and administrative style of Saladin and his state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.213.178.151 (talk) 22:49, 28 January 2007 (UTC).

   The beyit should be "The Arab nation has been glorified..." you missed the word "been" there 81.213.225.230 14:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)non-user

This is English translation of Moqadameh bu Ibn khaldun

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ik/Muqaddimah/Table_of_Contents.htm

it would be helpful if you show your source.

All the Arab Historians (like Ibn Athir ) who lived in the same age as Saladdin insisted that Ayyubid family were Kurdish.This is what Ibn Athir wrote" he saladdin was from ravadi family and they were the best of kurds."

If you show me a link to "Alkamil fi Tarikh" of Ibn Athir which is encyclopedia of islamic history I will show you,the exact place of this sentence.(and remember Ibn Athir lived in the same time of Ayyubid in Egypt)

About your sentence:

all of his brothers had Shamanistic Turkish names: Bori Turanshah, Tugtigin

first they were titles not names, then Turanshah is a classical iranic name which is composed of two Iranic word Turan and Shah.About other names which only mentioned by Sharafnameh which is written in 400 years !!! after Saladdin,and having these titles does not prove anything.Shahbaz one of the Espahbodan of Tabarestan in time of Barkyaroq choose the title of IlArsalan which is turkish name. Ahamidilian was an Arabic dynasty who was founded by Ahmadil son of Ibrahim ,whose grandfather was vahsudan which had a iranic name, and his son was Aq sonqor which is a turkic name.Rumi slajuqs used names like Keyqobad or keykavus which are iranic names.And why you forget the uncle of Saladdin

Shirkuh whose name is a popular kurdish name even today.

Then this sentence

The historians at their time counts him Turkish (......)and his state as Turkish State.

Actually all historian stated that that he and his family were kurdish origin,that is why for all these years Ayyubid were considered as kurds.

I can't believe people still argue that he was Turkish. Sometimes you got to wake up from the dream. Ozgur Gerilla 00:51, 16 February 2007 (UTC)