User talk:TonyBallioni

My block some years ago

Could explain me my block from some years ago? There was no evidence presented, no diffs, and there were also no signs of disruptive editing, edit warring reports or others that I tried to manipulate voting outcomes nor did I receive a message at my talk pages. You seem to have opened the investigation, then also closed it by yourself and after blocked me indef. with no talk page nor email access. For what? I have presented now also a case where there was rather obvious evidence (battleground behavior on same pages on same topic of discussions exactly the same article of the same author, both created the same article in the relevant wikis on Kurdish immigration into Syria...etc.) and the report I made was closed with no action taken. Would be grateful if you could explain me a bit what is a valid report.

Paradise Chronicle (talk) 06:12, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Gladly - I've already explained it to you over email, but I am more than happy to explain it publicly. You were blocked on a sister project as an abusive sockmaster and remain blocked there as one. A steward reported you to me as a crosswiki sockmaster who was engaging in similar conduct here with multiple accounts that led to you being blocked on de.wiki, one of the hardest project to get sock blocked on. Essentially, your initial edits, which you classify as reverting vandalism, were classic ethno-nationalist debates over what languages to include on pages. New editors who are blocked on other projects who then come to our project to continue their struggle to right great wrongs are inherently disruptive.

As you admitted to me via email, you then deceived the arbitration committee into unblocking you. Based on a minor technical detail that in my opinion should not have led to an unblock because of how strong the totality of the technical evidence was, they unblocked you as an assume good faith block. I strongly opposed that unblock and was unwilling to make it myself as I do not believe in unblocking socks who view Wikipedia as a battle ground for ethnic conflict, which you apparently still do based on that SPI, which multiple CUs told you did not have sufficient evidence to run a check, but you insisted it did.

So the short of it - you were an ethnic battleground sockmaster blocked on another project. We always block ethnic battleground sockmasters, especially if blocked on sister projects. It was an easy block to make, and it was the right call. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional information on the blocking process which you follow. I didn't know about the Steward. And since you mention our email conversation, you didn't reply to my last email in which I was rather open and voluntarily shared some information that might help in adapting the CU process. I approached you after I felt I was to oppose a candidate you promoted for an RfA, which I then didn't believe was fair to the candidate and then supported the candidacy.

Yes, I did deceive the Arbcom at the time, but I felt harassed. By editors like you, or who you believe. So I applied WP:IAR which is allowed if it is for the better of wikipedia. The Arb who answered me when I came clear to them, made me understand that the English ArbCom has no authority over the German wikipedia, so that block there doesn't affect my situation in the English wikipedia except if I was explicitly told so. You didn't tell me about the block in the German Wikipedia, nor did the ArbCom mention it during my appeal. Yet you again claim the block was correct! Actually you could just apologize and say you'll not consider a block in a sister project for a block in the English wikipedia again. The block in the German Wikipedia was motivated by 3 (out of a total 8) constructive, undisputed and still valid edits such as here, here and here.

In the English wikipedia I doubt such a report would be made for constructive edits by an experienced editor, much less considered. Also my other German account was not blocked at the time nor is it today.

On your comment about my SPI report being If you had reviewed my SPI report in the English wiki, you'd have noticed I filed the report motivated by the fact that the suspected sock had begun making the same discussion with the same editor who had held a very similar discussion before with the account with the TBAN.

If that is viewing Wikipedia as a battleground and won't be considered,...ok, I learn. It was my first report and based on successful reports with much lesser evidence such as the one against me.

Then that you classify reverting edits by an at least disruptive and eventually blocked IP, as ethno-nationalist debates that merit a block, leaves me a bit wondering how many constructive editors you might have blocked mistakenly. You can also apply some AGF and be glad someone is adding a source to something that usually doesn't need a source.

I'd be interested in the CU process getting adapted so other editors blocked in sister projects do not automatically get blocked in the English wikipedia. If they are disruptive ok, they merit a first temporary block. If they are constructive, they should be allowed to edit. What are your ideas on this? Paradise Chronicle (talk) 00:51, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

You are correct that I did not reply to your last email, which contained the admission that you lied to the arbitration committee to get unblocked followed by advising me on how to be a better CU. You clearly violated policy by using multiple accounts, were engaged in ethnic battleground conduct, have been warned by the arbitration committee since then for conduct in that same area, and are now using SPI to target other editors in that same area, while using your block for cross-wiki socking in the same area to justify a check without mentioning that you lied to get an unblock, and that you then after the unblock posted on your talk page with your own sock account to pretend to be different people and apologize to yourself for getting blocked.

To be blunt: you were not a constructive editor then, and you were not blocked by mistake. You were blocked for a clear sock policy violation, with rock solid technical evidence, after having been blocked for the same thing on another project, and coming here to continue the same disruptive conduct. And the only reason you are unblocked now is because you lied to get unblocked. IAR does not apply to inherently unethical behaviour such as lying, which is corrosive in any community.

I'm not going to relitigate your block - I've clearly explained why I made a 3 year old block now two times in two different years. I'm also not at all interested in making the sock policy looser. If someone is being disruptive here with multiple accounts, as you were, they should be blocked.

Also, for what it is worth, Paradise Chronicle, your page User:Paradise Chronicle/Diff Archive is a clear violation of WP:POLEMIC because you're storing diffs against Daniel Case and Lee Vilenski while providing negative commentary. You also added a diff of my block of you to it recently, which I don't really mind - I have no problem pointing people to this conversation if they have questions about it.

Anyway, now that we've done this exercise for two years in a row, I'd ask that you drop the stick. TonyBallioni (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) I've looked over this discussion and I can find no fault with TonyBallioni's synopsis and previous actions. I agree that User:Paradise Chronicle/Diff Archive was problematic. I also agree there are sticks which should be dropped here and now, if User:Paradise Chronicle wants to avoid being blocked on en.wikipedia as well. BusterD (talk) 12:30, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Just a quick note that I don't really care if someone stores diffs of comments I've made, but I'd rather have a conversation about it. I had a look at the archive and I can't really see what's wrong with my diff, but it's a lot nicer than finding out you are being stored later. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:24, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Let me one up Buster and say I've looked over this discussion, the 2019/2020 unblock appeal and the 2021 "coming clean" thread in the ArbCom archives (the last of which I was on the committee for but have no recollection of) and say I find Tony's block entirely appropriate and with-in policy. The desire to get some kind of wrong admitted makes me question if the 2021 decision to do nothing after the coming clean disclosure was the right one. Barkeep49 (talk) 17:24, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

You are all aware that the initial question was quite friendly? I just wanted to know what was a valid report in order not to repeat a faulty one again.

In mine there was no diff presented. Not in the original SPI, nor in this discussion. I believe CU must be able to decide upon diffs and evidence. If anyone is interested in adapting the CU process constructively, get in touch. Paradise Chronicle (talk) 18:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle Looking back at the 2021 thread, I'm surprised I didn't move to have you ArbCom blocked. In hindsight, I think the Committee screwed up, and I think I screwed up too. I don't think it was as much as a mea culpa as Barkeep does. But our failure to reblock you is a sort of bank error in your favor, to borrow an expression from Monopoly. Regardless, I must say that you come off as callous and arrogant to openly admit you lied to and decieved ArbCom, and then have the gall to call out Tony for blocking you in the first place. If this is an attempt to change the sockpuppetry guidelines, it is both misplaced and misguided. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 21:39, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

As Eek hints in her reply, having reviewed the situation I think the 2021 Committee (myself included) messed up in not seriously discussing some kind of sanction. Especially given that the Committee had formally warned you only a few months before. And while I certainly wouldn't call your remarks to Tony unfriendly, the firm desire to get him to admit he's wrong goes far beyond I just wanted to know what was a valid report in order not to repeat a faulty one again. Barkeep49 (talk) 21:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Reading through this thread, Paradise Chronicle, your comments come off as trolling, centered around an odd form of sealioning ("what is a valid report"). If you must right the great wrong of your past, then please note that it is a two-way street. You would be better off, I think, taking a yes for an answer (i.e. you shouldn't have been unblocked, you should have been (re)blocked in 2021, yet here we are today). That said, I don't think ArbCom would be in wrong at least discussing the merits of an {{ArbComBlock}} here; having served with many of the sitting arbitrators, I can see how there would be at least a few supporting a block. Maxim (talk) 22:35, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

• I see my talk page has become an interesting place. I have a few thoughts and things to say on this to different people, but first I do want to thank the current and former members of the committee who have commented on this: I don't want to rehash old disputes, but I appreciate the openness here more than you all know.
  Next, I'll talk to Paradise Chronicle since they keep making insinuations and asking questions:

1. As a CheckUser I do not have to publicly reveal the reasons for my checks, link diffs for why I made it publicly, or even file an SPI. You keep implying that something was out of process here because I opened and closed the own SPI with minimal diffs. That's fairly normal practice so that others are aware and can file future cases. I didn't have to do that, but I did in part because of the de.wiki block. There was the possibility this would come up on sister projects, and usually it is more helpful for them to have a public case.
2. The ongoing insinuation here is that anyone who is creating content for the project is a constructive sock and is not being disruptive; as some people who have commented know, and I have commented here, I have really strong views on lying: it destroys trust and creates an unhealthy environment. Socking by being two users in the same area, especially if contentious, is essentially lying. Starting to good hand accounts and then developing them independently to earn community trust in a contentious area, such as the relationships between Kurds and their neighbours, is a fairly common technique used by disruptive nationalist users before engaging in tag teaming or other similar behaviour. That's disruptive because it undermines the ability of the community to adequately self-govern and control for users who use this project to push an agenda.
3. Assume good faith goes both ways: established users fighting with IP addresses and the IP getting blocked despite being right is also a very common thing in the ethno-nationalist dispute areas. Typically both users who are engaged in reverting place names between languages are being disruptive. The IP was blocked, but you were also edit warring with it, and no, admins are not going to pick a side on what languages to include in an article.
4. You insinuations about your de.wiki block are misleading at best: you were blocked as a sock because of disruption on your main account in the areas you were editing on en.wiki Google Translate of that block discussion. Google Translate isn't perfect, but it paints a different scenario of the situation than you do. Yes, the individual account's edits may have been uncontroversial but two bring two socks to edit in an area that a large sister project has already determined you behave problematically, while not reason for a block itself, can be considered since cross-wiki disruption is a valid reason for a check. You also had more than one sock on de.wiki, not just the one you operated here. That means you already knew that socking wasn't allowed, and did it anyway - the assumption that you didn't know what you were doing can go out the window based on behvaiour elsewhere.
5. Anyone who says that they're just here to have a conversation to help someone improve while telling them how wrong they were about something they were not in fact wrong about is not behaving in good faith, in real life or on Wikipedia. Wikipedia policy requires I be civil in my response to you and to respond to your requests as an admin. It does not require me to agree with you or to back down. In fact, accountability for blocks will often involve explaining why a block was made in terms that will make the person requesting it look unflattering.

Now to address the question about blocks since its been implied here and I know some people want to know what I think:

1. ArbCom should have reblocked Paradise Chronicle in 2021 especially given the context of a recent arb case. But they didn't, that was two years ago and it is not within the norm of the English Wikipedia practice to reblock for something 2 years after an event admitting a fairly large error and 3.5 years after the initial block.
2. The fact that you PC lied to ArbCom, emailed me about it after the fact, decided to voluntarily [share] some information that might help in adapting the CU process in said email, and then essentially repeated the exercise over again after CUs refused to get involved with a dispute with an Arab user at SPI can absolutely be considered as a part of a potential block for current behaviour, as can the history on de.wiki in forming our understanding of how they act.
3. Their history over the last few months isn't exactly great this is how their user subpage collecting diffs about people they dislike looks after I warned them and this was how it looked before. To be fair, the diffs are also educational for how Paradise Chronicle behaves with people. If you look at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/عمرو_بن_كلثوم/Archive#29_June_2023 you'll see the immediate incident that led to this: two CUs declined to run a check on a user that Paradise Chronicle was in conflict with. I archived it along with several others that day, and they came here asking me both to explain their block and why other CUs didn't feel comfortable running a check on an established user on multiple project just because they agreed with someone of their presumably similar ethnic background. You'll also see a demand for an explanation of how they got blocked there.
4. And this is how their userpage looked at the time they initiated this conversation. You'll see both I and the German Wikipedia get shout outs. Not exactly a polemic violation, but also not really the best look.
5. And as I was writing this this post on Maxim's talk page came through.

All that to say: I think there's actually a pretty strong case here for a long-term tendentious editing block, but if it happens, it should come as a normal admin action. The fact that they lied to get unblocked is now public since they said it here. No reason for the committee to step in for a 2-3.5 year old problem. It can publicly be decided by other admins or the community if there is a current problem needing addressing. TonyBallioni (talk) 00:10, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Just to correct a few a bit heavy accusations against me. I first emailed the ArbCom in 2021 and admitted I deceived them following which they told be there was no issue and the block in the German Wikipedia didn't affect me at the English Wikipedia except if I was explicitly told so. That I came clear on the block was public for quite some time at my user page since January 2022. The other account was not active outside my userspace since my unblock in January 2020, so all the issue that I was establishing two accounts in the same contentious area...Also look at my talk page edits with any user, if you check 5, I am sure 4 are collaborative and I'd like to know which of my edits are deemed battleground behavior, I don't believe there are any. If you check some, you'd find multiple friendly edits.

Then I was not told that the block had something to do with the block in the German wiki until I read it from you in March 2022. That you opposed the unblock and that my reverting a disruptive IP is seen as ethno-nationalist debate by you...I view as a bit offensive. I and Semsuri added sources to what we re-added and it was made sure in good faith. You could just as well be glad someone adds sources and doesn't edit war with no improvement. But you turned it around and blocked me. Then on why I tried to give advice for CU processes. I was blocked, yet I edit rather constructively and reasonably successful under the same account. Isn't that an obvious mistake an admin would be interested to correct? I believe CUs should review the block in a sister project before blocking someone in the English wikipedia. And if the block was for constructive or minor edits, approach them in good faith with your concern, instead of blocking them to prevent abuse.

To reply on 4. My first SPI investigation was not motivated by some ethnic issue but for both accounts engaging in the same discussions with the same editor (which was not me) on the same article, both creating the same article in different projects... And on your so well established editor...here the findings of the ArbCom for your well established editor, an anti-Kurdish POV pusher they were found to be. But who cares.... Paradise Chronicle (talk) 05:10, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

I'm not getting into a back and forth with you any more. I've answered you as required under WP:ADMINACCT, and you're either not understanding what I said or are misrepresenting it. The last thing I will say to you on this matter is this because I want it to be clear: you were not blocked for what happened on de.wiki. I have never claimed that. Your de.wiki block for socking did however provide justification for a check on your account when another user reported you to me, and the fact that you had at least one sock blocked there showed that there was no need for a warning since you would have known that Wikimedia projects do not allow what you were doing on en.wiki. This is because you don't become a new person when you switch the project you are on. Your behaviour here was a violation of our policy on the abuse of multiple accounts, and that was why you were blocked. TonyBallioni (talk) 06:04, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

• Hi folks. I've looked over all the archives from 2019 to 2021, and full disclosure, I didn't participate in any of the threads (save for a minor grumble regarding the accuracy of the CU tool) - Having gone over them, I see the following. Paradise Chronicle contacted the committee from two accounts, disavowing knowledge of the other but writing it awkwardly. He also copped to some other socking from the secondary account. Combined with some technical grey area and some significant committee burnout, we incorrectly accepted the appeal. In 2021, they wrote to us and admitted to socking, and apologised, largely to grumble about German wiki. They were told that sanctions on de.wp do not prevent editing on en.wp - not that they do not affect it.
  There was a suggestion within the thread that Paradise Chronicle should make the comments publicly, so that the community, and more importantly TonyBallioni could receive the deserved apology - I wish that had been said at the time. I don't blame the committee at the time for not acting on that confession, we don't like to dragging up the past when someone is not acting poorly, but with hindsight, we should have blocked then and there. Maxim is right, there are discussions ongoing about whether to re-instate Paradise Chronicle's block today. I'm unimpressed by the invocation of IAR which slides away from "This action improves the encyclopedia" and into "The action gets what I want". I'm also disappointed that Paradise Chronicle is bothering Tony to suggest that he'd done something wrong in how he'd worked, where Tony was clearly correct in his behaviour throughout. Worm^TT(talk) 09:31, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
• Hi all. Just want to note for anyone following this thread that the Committee is currently considering a motion to block at WP:ARM. Best, KevinL (aka L235 · t · c) 14:48, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Yo L235 that's now a site ban, just FTR. SN54129 15:20, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

SPI

Thanks Tony : )

I wasn't sure how that worked, they seem to have clerks closing things in some cases.

I'd help out more there (I had in the past), but I just don't feel sure of my footing there, especially as to what I should do when I do think there is a duck test fail.

And obviously if I don't feel comfortable or confident in the process, I'm not going to use the block tool. lol

Anyway, thanks again, I appreciate it : ) - jc37 04:30, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for being willing to help out Jc37. There was a recent thread on the functionaries list about patrolling admins and clerks and the need for more admins at SPI. Something Reaper Eternal did on another SPI was point out to an admin that they could also close a case, and I figured it worth following his practice (which is also generally just a good thing.) We'd love to have more help at SPI if you're willing - closing cases where there's no sufficient evidence is something any admin can do and would be a real help, as would be making any blocks where behavioural evidence merits it. TonyBallioni (talk) 04:35, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Administrators' newsletter – August 2023

News and updates for administrators from the past month (July 2023).

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Arbitration

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Sent by MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 08:54, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding information about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interior_Schwarzschild_metric

Dear TonyBallioni, I wanted some information about the page tagged here. There's a table on this page that lists parameters for some astronomical objects (Earth, Sun, White Dwarf and Neutron Star). I wanted to know if this table has a relevant source like a research article or a book. Would be happy if you could provide information about the same.

Regards, JackPhy JackPhy (talk) 10:23, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi JackPhy, unfortunately I know nothing about this topic. It doesn't look like there's an inline citation, but it could theoretically be in one of the sources provided in the footnotes. I'd suggest looking in those. TonyBallioni (talk) 21:37, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

About your blocking of IPs

1. Morning, nice to talk to you 2. I've noticed you've blocked a lot of IPs with low edit counts. Personally, I am a fan of those blocks as those IPs have been reverting everything and anything, but I'd just like to know what was the reason you blocked them?🤔 Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 06:33, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Becausewhynothuh?, usually it is because CheckUser indicates there is activity on the range or IP that can benefit from a block. Basically I am able to see things other people can't and policy allows me to block based on that. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

ohhhh 😲 that's new. Keep doing what you do! Becausewhynothuh? (talk) 01:55, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

LTA

That LTA is editing under 39.33.0.128 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) at Talk:Necropolis. Thanks. 2601:1C0:4401:F60:592C:6755:67BE:F9D9 (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2023 (UTC)