Talk:Kosovo War

Too Big

This article is really unwieldy and there are several sections that could be condensed/spun off. there are a lot of sections that go into what is probably excessive depth when there are articles that cover the issues more specifically. Humok (talk) 13:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Racial theories behind attacks on Serbs?

Top NATO commanders in this war had and have racial theories about Serbs. Should we add that? I see it is a common topic in articles about wars in Balkans. Even wider. This is one of the examples. But there are many more. Movies, articles, statements, adds...

General Clark 2020s “Serbs are notorious for not being loyal to one another,” Clark continued. “At NATO, I had three enemies: Serbs, wishy-washy Europeans and the Pentagon.” Everyone laughed...

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-the-us-broke-kosovo-and-what-that-means-for-ukraine/ 178.223.51.73 (talk) 12:34, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Such an addition would need to be supported by a secondary source establishing that such quotes are evidence of NATO commanders having "racial theories". Cordless Larry (talk) 13:05, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Secondary source? Like scientific article? Would we be able to get it considering wide corruption in scientific community regarding Balkan contemporary politics and history? There is also wide spread self censorship culture in academic community in fear of being labelled pro-Serbian etc... This statement is clearly on the level of behaviour theories about different races that was behind certain ideologies. It also comes from top general of force whose action led to mass war crimes against Serbs and almost complete destruction of Serbian, Roma and Gorani communities in Kosovo and Metohija. Proofs are all around us. Where can I read what kind of proofs are needed on Wikipedia? It seems that rules apply for certain agendas. Also, how can I prove that academic community is not able to comprehend facts clearly due to fear or corruption? Thanks 178.223.51.73 (talk) 18:59, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:03, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

OP is falsely accusing a group of people for having "certain ideologies" and "mass war crimes" and fails to provide any facts. There is nothing "racial" proven by Your article. All You do is taking anything out of context and molding it into something it isn't to suit Your opinions and convictions. "Many articles" "proofs all around" "open Your eyes" will be in fact not provided as they are just manipulatory slogans. Here You go: Historical negationism#Serbian war crimes in the Yugoslav wars and Bosnian genocide denial, this should help. YBSOne (talk) 20:11, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Unexplained removals

@Pincrete the question whether a genocide has happened is irrelevant to the lead, as its not being discussed there. It’s clear that a certain POV is trying to be portrayed with that sentence. And btw, being sourced doesn’t warrant the inclusion into the article nor the lead. You did not make any argument to why the content should remain in the lead.

„Vague and sourced content“ what exactly is vague about the expulsion? You easily could have looked up the article that is linked in this sentence, there you will find every source you need, but okay, if you insist on sources, I’ll add them later if I have time despite the case of WP:BLUESKY we have here. You know what would be vague? Including Albanian and Serbian estimates. But I did not do that. AlexBachmann (talk) 17:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The lede is supposed to summarise the most important contents of the article, and whether the violence was judged to constitute genocide seems like an important point. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

You said that It’s clear that a certain POV is trying to be portrayed with that sentence. For me it actually is not that clear - what POV is being portrayed by including the information that it was not ruled to be a genocide by the UN Supreme Court? That seems like a crucial, lede-worthy piece of information. Brat Forelli🦊 21:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll agree that the this high-court ruling may be relevant, but I'll take out the quotes at [...] found that there had been "a systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" against the Albanian population, but that Yugoslav troops had tried to force them out of Kosovo, but not to eradicate them, and therefore it was not genocide. To me, this looks like an attempts to make the "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" look like an opinion. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I also sourced the "vague" content and readded it. AlexBachmann (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: I wish to contribute to this discussion by shining some light on other aspects in the background section:

1. The very first line - The modern Albanian-Serbian conflict has its roots in the expulsion of Albanians in 1877-1878... - is somewhat questionable. Albanians and Serbs (as a distinct population group) have been fighting since the Middle Ages, whereas the Balkan Slavs in general (whom the Serbs descend from) invaded territories inhabited by the ancestral populations of the Albanians all the way back in the 6th-7th centuries CE. The conflict between Albanians and Serbs goes back to over a millennia, not a century and a half ago. However, I notice the word "modern" there. Perhaps something else is meant by this line, but this should be clearly and explicitly stated.

2. I removed an unsourced line for the same reason used by editors above; it's simply too vague. In fact, one of the articles I removed - Attacks on Serbs during the Serbian–Ottoman Wars (1876–1878) - barely has any information on specific attacks and does not include any figures whatsoever. Contrast that to the Massacres of Albanians in the Balkan Wars, where attacks are quite clearly recorded and figures exist on the matter. The only line mentioning somewhat specific attacks on that article is the following: Tensions in the form of revenge attacks arose by incoming Albanian refugees on local Kosovo Serbs... If the article in question cannot be expanded upon soon, I genuinely question whether or not it should even exist. All of its content fits into the Expulsion of the Albanians, 1877–1878 article, or even the Serbian–Ottoman Wars (1876–1878) article. It does not seem to warrant an article of its own, and I may propose it for deletion if it's not expanded upon soon. Nonetheless, that's a discussion that is more fitting on the TP of the article in question.

3. The other linked article that I removed - 1901 massacres of Serbs - is also quite lacklustre in terms of content and sources, and also makes no mention of any figures whatsoever. Nonetheless, it does say that Serbs were massacred, and although we have no info on the article discussing who or how many Serbs were killed, I'd assume it'd be good enough to stay, although it should also be expanded upon. It can also be mentioned in this article, but in a more accurate way than it was previously; did the Muhaxhirs seriously wait nearly 15 years or so to exact revenge on the Serbs in Kosovo? This article should perhaps be mentioned more explicitly, as the previous mention was quite vague. Botushali (talk) 01:06, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Concerning Botushali's first argument, I think what is meant here by "modern" is the beginning of the Kosovo problem. I mean - if we're being honest - Serbia shot itself in the foot with every action that they've taken against the local Albanian population. Kosovo, which already had had an Albanian-dominated population, kept getting more and more Albanian after the Albanians of Nish and Toplica were expelled. On top of that, the local Serbian population of Kosovo fled, creating a vacuum that Albanians naturally and quickly began to fill. Several attempts have been made afterwards to restore a supposed "status quo" by colonizing Kosovo. I think that's what scholars mean with roots of the modern Albanian-Serbian conflict.

With that being said, it is, however, evident that the Albanian-Serbian conflict is much more than that. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

As it was argued, I've also noticed the lack of reliable and precise recordings of the massacres on Serbs, whereas testimonies of Serbian massacres of Albanians are precise and detailed. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Statements with outright ridiculous sources

The statement "...thousands killed and between 70,000 and 100,000 expelled from Kosovo or sent to concentration camps in order to Albanianize the province..." references a book, which does mention those numbers, HOWEVER said book itself calls these numbers literally, and I quote, "pure fantasy".

This is a clear case of someone taking something out of context in order to try and make fantasy (it is a fantasy, according to their own source) into reality.

By the way, that was the first link I checked. I have no doubt there are countless more here. If Wikipedia wants to be a pillar of truth, there should be more work being done in checking these claims and not just approving them because they seem legit at first sight. 84.22.48.91 (talk) 09:21, 12 June 2024 (UTC)