Talk:Joseph McCarthy

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What is the status of this discussion page?

Is there some reason why all discussion regarding this topic has ceased? Jtpaladin 23:08, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there some reason why all discussion regarding this topic has to continue? If you feel you need to discuss something about the article, do it. We shouldn't talk so that we don't shut up. If nobody says anything, this means that nobody has anything to say (or has, but doesn't want to say it)86.104.234.46 11:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree completely. I was just wondering why the article remains POV. I assumed that this matter was going to be resolved. If no one has any objections, I'll re-engage discussion regarding making the article NPOV. Thank you for your response. Jtpaladin 21:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Since your contributions to discussion inevitably consist of uninformed wingnut drivel, I object. RedSpruce 22:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I could just as easily say that your contributions consist of maintaining the "crackpot Communist Party line" but I won't. However, I will say that you are violating WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. Stop addressing your comments at me and instead address the article itself. I would hate to see you banned for violating Wikipedia rules. Jtpaladin 23:24, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Inherently unverifiable

Regardless of DCgeist's assertion of it being factual, the statement is disputed. The way its worded is inherently unverifiable. According to a widely circulated but unsubstantiated rumor, test audiences, unaware that only archival footage of McCarthy was used in his depiction, felt that the "performer" who "played" McCarthy was overacting. There are no authoritative reports of any such test audience reaction.

It clearly states there is no source and its not substantiated. WP:V very clearly requires a source, so unless one is provided it cannot stay in the article. I provided a source from a newspaper, but that wasn't acceptable for DCGeist and he doesn't seem interested in finding one. If that is the case then that sentence can be removed. We don't get to leave something in the article by declaring it completely unverifiable.--Crossmr 03:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

This entire item is so vague, against the background of a minutely-researched biography, that it seems hard to justify retaining that sentence. While the comment about McCarthy 'overacting' is juicy if anyone actually made it, it would represent the point of view of some individuals in the audience who can't be named or even narrowed down to a particular city, and who are not on record as being interviewed by any particular journalist. If it were up to me I would strike the whole sentence about the rumor. EdJohnston 03:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's the problem: There are multiple putatively "reliable" sources that have disseminated this rumour without caveat, that is, as fact. For instance, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette critic John Hayes begins his review of the film thus: "When director George Clooney held screenings of 'Good Night, and Good Luck,' audience members said they felt the guy who played Sen. Joseph McCarthy was overacting." Careful research, however, demonstrates no evidence whatsoever for this claim. Hayes, like many others, is simply repeating an unfounded rumor without questioning it. He does not, because he cannot, say where this test audience saw the movie, when they saw the movie, and how many of its members had the fabled response. When the discussion of the rumor has been absent from the article in the past--the state EdJohnston suggests we return to--various editors have placed the rumor in the article without caveat, that is, again, as fact. There is not a shred of evidence that it is a fact, but it is a very persistent rumor. The current means of dealing with it is the most effective available at the moment. Yes, it would be lovely if a responsible journalist would state clearly that it is an unsubstantiated rumor. Until that glorious day, let's continue to ward off falsification of the historical record as best we can. It is the rumor itself that fails WP:V, and we do good by Wikipedia and its readers in stating so (in different words, of course) in the article.—DCGeist 04:32, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette is a reliable source, while your "careful research" is Wikipedia:original research. That means that until you have another reliable source saying it's just an unsubstantiated rumor, we shouldn't say it is. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 12:46, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. We're making claims we cannot back up.--Crossmr 12:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Then give evidence that its widely disseminated as the sentence claims, or better yet find a source which speaks to the fact that so many newspapers have reported it, yet no one can substantiate it. Because as its written, it reads like something completely unverifiable, of which no verification can ever be found. Widely disseminated is subjective and a citation has to be provided so that an editor can verify that statement which hasn't been done.-Crossmr 12:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

There seem to be two choices here. Either qualify the report of the rumor enough to make it properly sourced (e.g. credit it to the Post-Gazette writer in the body of the text, as a direct quote, and state that he provides no details), or leave it out. But why does something so flimsy belong in a serious historical article? That is the sensible reason for leaving it out. The third way, that I don't favor, is to keep the rumor in but say bad things about it by calling it widely-circulated but unverifiable. This would seem to violate our rules because there are no sources to back up that description of the rumor. The Post-Gazette certainly doesn't say that. EdJohnston 13:41, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank God. Where were you guys? I'm glad to see that there are still people who find this article POV and want to improve it. That Clooney movie rumor should be removed. It has no basis in fact. Otherwise, I begin today's session below: Jtpaladin 14:58, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

God says you're welcome. Yes, as I suggested, it would be nice not to have to mention the rumor at all. But when it has gone unmentioned in the past, it has routinely been entered in the article as fact. I wrote that quite plainly above. Ah...reading. Helps with the communication process. God likes it, too--in the beginning was the word...well you know.—DCGeist 05:57, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

So then remove it after its edited and remind the editors that there is no proof of it. We don't keep something in an article that is unverifiable just because individuals keep adding it.--Crossmr 15:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

In the absence of anyone who wants the rumor kept and is willing to fully document its existence and multiple reportage, I propose that we delete the rumor from the article. If people keep re-adding it in the future, we can revert with a mention of the talk page consensus that it does not belong. EdJohnston 15:32, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

We can do a bit more than maintain a revert watch, I realized. Mention of rumor and caveat against its inclusion without firm evidence now hidden after Good Night, and Good Luck bullet point.—DCGeist 15:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Cause of death

Let's start out with something simple. The following statement mixes fact with Original Research WP:OR.

The cause of his death was variously reported as acute hepatitis and cirrhosis.

Why not add cancer, heart failure, murder by Communists, alien abduction, glue sniffing, lead poisoning, and being "raptured" to a list of possible reasons for Senator McCarthy's death? This is Original Research and speculation. Or, we could just stick to the official cause of death as reported on his Death Certificate. That would be acute hepatitis.[1]

I'm going to add a "citation needed" to this statement, give a day to get a response or correction and then I'm going to edit. This article has existed in this form long enough for proper citation. Lacking proper citation is cause for deletion or alteration of the issue in question. Jtpaladin 17:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

NOTE: I'm going to be targeting WP:OR, WP:VERIFY, WP:SOAP, WP:OR, and WP:CON issues. I suggest that those not familiar with these guidelines should make themselves knowledgeable of them or remain out of this disucussion or refrain from doing any edits until they do so. These guidelines are essential to any article. I would be happy to help anyone to better understand these guidelines and I appreciate anyone who helps me stay focused on them as well. Thank you. Jtpaladin 17:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree. If there is a reported and official cause of death, cite it and stick with that.--Crossmr 18:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In this edit, Jtpaladin is favoring a primary source (the cause of death listed in the death certificate) over the analysis presented by secondary sources. This is contrary to WP policy, as stated in Wikipedia:Attribution#Reliable sources, in the subsection "Primary and secondary sources."

It is possible to characterize all the summarizations, analyses and/or interpretations of secondary sources as "speculation," and to thereby suggest that they're less reliable than primary sources. There's no need for us to argue about that point however, because the WP policy it clear: Secondary sources are preferred. RedSpruce 15:35, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

RedSpruce, I was in the middle of typing a response to your edit when you commented. Here's what I was writing:

RedSpruce, all joking aside between us, I seriously appreciate your efforts to cite sources for McCarthy's death but in that statement, we are looking for accuracy, not speculation. Both Oshinsky's book and Reeves' book are vehement anti-McCarthy books. They include every possible story and unsubstantiated rumor they could throw in their book. I don't know if you've read their books but I read them both and found a great deal of their data to be just rumor. Herman does a bit of a balancing act but even he doesn't stick to solid sources. It's only fair and within Wiki guidelines to report the "official" cause of death and leave out rumor. The only way to add those sources is to say that "rumor has it that McCarthy died of alcoholism" but the problem is that Wiki does not allow for rumor and speculation as part of an official citation. The biggest obstacle in adding the "alcoholism" view is WP:NPOV. In that guideline, you have to be able to quote specific people who can attest to McCarthy dying as a result of alcoholism and that their opinion is neutral and not based on ax-grinding. Even more importantly, as you know alcoholism is not a cause of death. It is a syndrome or an addiction. It is not something any coroner is going to put down as the cause of death. I don't see any problem in simply quoting the factual cause of death which is "acute hepatitis" and leaving out speculation about him being an aloholic. If you can cite a Wiki guideline that allows for rumor in this instance, please do so and then let's reach a consensus about including that into the article. But I ask you please not to edit something without discussing it here first because of the contentious nature of this article. I would very much like to work together to improve the article and to do so means that we should be able to reach a consensus on the issues. Thank you for your time. Jtpaladin 15:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Jtpaladin, you are arguing the point that I said there was no point in us arguing. Secondary sources are preferred. Your personal opinions about the quality of those sources doesn't matter; only the opinion of the scholarly community matters, and these sources include the two most notable and respected biographies of McCarthy. If you could cite equally reliable sources that state a contrary view, that view would warrant inclusion in the article. But in this case you're arguing against a view that is universally accepted by all reputable sources on McCarthy.

I agree that "died of alcoholism" is questionable from a technical point of view, but the phrase is commonly used and universally understood. It seems preferable to "drank himself to death," which would be more technically accurate.RedSpruce 16:03, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

How about instead of "he died of alcoholism," "his death was brought on by alcoholism"--a little wordier, but both appropriate tonally and accurate technically.—DCGeist 16:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Guys, the problem still lies in the fact that we don't know on a medical basis if citing alcoholism was a factor in his death. For example, I know of examples of people who have died of "acute hepatitis" that were not alcohol consumers at all. I also know of cases of people that were chronic alcoholics that died of medical reasons completely unrelated to alcohol. So again, we are having to rely on speculation to include the alcoholism factor in the cause of death which according to Wiki guidelines would be inappropriate. If someone wants to go into the alcoholism issue somewhere in the article, that would be fine but trying include it as part of the official cause of death would be mixing fact with rumor. Jtpaladin 16:23, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles are to be based upon reliable secondary sources. All reliable secondary sources state unequivocally that McCarthy drank himself to death. Therefor this information belongs in the article. The evidence indicating that McCarthy drank himself to death is quite overwhelming, but that doesn't matter by itself, just as it doesn't matter that you consider that evidence to be "rumor". It's what the reliable sources say, therefor it belongs in the article. RedSpruce 17:26, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

RedSpruce, WP:RS is not the only standard upon which articles are based. But like I said, if you want to discuss rumor about what contributed to his death, it's already in the article. Check out: [2]. The initial paragraph that we have been discussing summarizes the McCarthy article and the main body of the article goes into detail. The speculation of alcoholism is done in the "Final years" section. So, I think that settles this issue, don't you? Jtpaladin 17:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

If the intro section is going to mention the cause of death, it should do in a way that is accurate according to the policies of Wikipedia. It currently does not do this. I suggest that, since the "official" cause of death is dismissed as a polite lie by his biographers, the mention of it should be removed from the intro, and replaced with what his biographers universally agree is the actual cause of death. Per DCGeist's suggestion I propose simply "His death was brought on by alcoholism." RedSpruce 18:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The problem with that is that we would be using unofficial information in a section that should be giving the official coroner's report. Like I said, the topic of alcoholism is already addressed in the "Final years" section. That is the appropriate place to discuss what his biographers thought brought on his death. The biographers are simply stating an opinion whereas the coroner's report is a fact whether we agree with the report or not. It also follows the manual of style WP:MOS to briefly lay out facts in the intial paragraph and then go into all sorts of details in the body of the article. There's no reason to keep repeating the same thing over and over throughout the article. Merely stating the fact in the initial paragraph and going into argumentative detail in a later section is very much in keeping with the manual of style found throughout the articles in Wikipedia. Jtpaladin 19:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with you, except that this isn't an argumentative issue. There is universal agreement on the part of reliable McCarthy authors that he died as a result of alcoholism. Including only the coroner's cause would therefor be to include a statement that is universally regarded as false. If you want the official cause included in the intro, I would accept "The official cause of his death was acute hepatitis, though biographers agree that his death was brought on by alcoholism." I believe that this would be unnecessary repetition, and that the relatively minor point about the misleading coroner's report should only be mentioned in the body of the article. RedSpruce 19:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Even if I were to agree with you about what some biographers have said (I've seen the claim disputed), I guess the main issue would be where official info should appear and where unofficial info should appear. I'm of the thought that the official cause should be in the intro and the unofficial should be in the main body where it is right now. I think you and I are pretty much at odds with this question so maybe we can get some other opinions on this so we can reach a consensus. Sound fair? The funny thing is consider how much time we've spent debating this minor issue when there are much larger issues to be discussed. Jtpaladin 22:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

There's no need for a third opinion. As I stated at the beginning, WP policy is extremely clear on this point: Secondary sources are preferred. And in this case, the reliable secondary sources are unanimous. Show me a single reliable secondary source that argues that McCarthy did not drink himself to death and then perhaps we have a reason to continue this discussion. As things stand now, you are defending an edit that violates WP policy. RedSpruce 10:04, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

That's where WP:CON comes into play. You and I disagree about adding speculation to an official coroner's report. The article already states the speculation of biographers but it seems you want to add speculation to every reference of McCarthy's cause for death. What's wrong with leaving one comment without speculation and just sticking to facts? Also, none of the sources I cite are going to be liked by you. I can cite James Drummey, Roy Cohn, M. Stanton Evans and others but you won't like them and you will simply disregard them so what's the point? At this point, we need consensus to settle the matter. That's what Wiki guidelines call for when we reach such a point. And, we have reached that point. Jtpaladin 15:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

As you know, James Drummey, Roy Cohn, M. Stanton Evans do not qualify as reliable sources under WP guidelines. As I've pointed out, referring to the contributions of secondary sources as "speculation" does not alter the fact that WP prefers secondary sources. You do not have a disagreement with me here; you have a disagreement with WP policies. I suggest you take that disagreement to the proper discussion forum. RedSpruce 15:57, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

RedSpruce, you are violating Wiki rules by making a change that has no concensus. You are not restoring what was there before you are making a conclusion based on what you think are reliable sources. The sources I gave are in fact reliable. Do not make the change without consensus. This is not your article to do with as you please. Jtpaladin 16:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I am calling for an Administrator to help in this matter. I ask you not to modify that comment until this has been arbitrated. Jtpaladin 16:37, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

As you know (I hope!), there is no rule against "making a change that has no concensus" (or even consensus). I welcome the attention of any administrator to this matter, but as you probably also know, that does not constitute "arbitration." RedSpruce 16:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

RedSpruce, I don't understand why you refuse to wait and allow some further discussion on this issue before making the change. You not only changed the comment in question to a POV perspective but you have also not reverted to the original comment, which was, "The cause of his death was variously reported as acute hepatitis and cirrhosis." You are writing this part of the article without consensus and as POV. If you want to revert back to the original comment before we started discussing this issue, then that's fine with me until we can get consensus, but re-writing this article as you see fit is not appropriate consideering the obvious contention with this article. I will compromise and change the comment back to the original state until we can get more input on this. I hope you agree with this compromise. Jtpaladin 18:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

We have established after extensive discussion that this is not an NPOV issue, and that it is a simple matter of reporting what reliable secondary sources state. You have offered no rational defense of your edit. Instead you are trying to recruit supporters to create a "consensus" in favor of an edit that is contrary to WP rules. I consider this reprehensible behavior. Does that clarify things for you? RedSpruce 02:23, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually it can be a NPOV issue. Even if a reliable source reports it. If there is concern about it being npov then it needs to be demonstrated that this view of his death is held by more than a minority view point. Its covered under undue weight. If there is an official cause of death on record, and someone wants to put forth an alternate theory in a book, that doesn't automatically make it right or worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedic article. It makes it reliable in that we can cite that author as having held that opinion, but we should look at whether that author has any evidence or if they're an expert on causes of death.--Crossmr 14:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree Crossmr, that this could be a NPOV issue under other circumstances. In this case, as I've pointed out and Jtpaladin has admitted, there is no reliable source that disagrees that McCarthy drank himself to death. No reliable source whatsoever has ever put forward a dissent to this view. Even Ann Coulter doesn't argue the point.

Please don't speak for me. I don't agree. There are reliable sources that state McCarthy did not drink himself to death. I believe even Herman states that in later years, McCarthy drank very little. Jtpaladin 15:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Your belief is incorrect. Herman describes McCarthy's death by alcoholism in some detail. That's why his book was included in the references which you removed. There is no reliable source, as WP defines the term, that denies that McCarthy drank himself to death. RedSpruce 15:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Herman states that McCarthy was a heavy drinker during his "hey day" years but was a moderate drinker in his final years. Herman assumes that heavy drinking was the cause of hepatitis. Neither Harman nor the other biographers are doctors and can not make a medical claim however they can speculate, which is what is done in the "Final years" section. Jtpaladin 16:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

(Response to RfC) One easy solution would be to say that he died of acute hepatitis as a result of alcoholism. Alcoholic hepatitis (a form of acute hepatitis) is a common and potentially fatal complication of alcoholism. This appears to be the case with McCarthy - in other words, acute hepatitis was the immediate cause of death, while alcoholism was the cause of the hepatitis. Failing that, remember that WP:RS favors secondary, interpretative sources (i.e. biographies which uniformly almost uniformly state alcoholism was the underlying cause of McCarthy's death) over primary sources (e.g. the death certificate), for reasons exactly like this - it's too easy to hold up the coroner's report as if he developed hepatitis in a vacuum, when in fact alcoholism was apparently responsible. These are not mutually exclusive causes of death, but in fact complementary. MastCell ^Talk 15:32, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I would accept "He died of acute hepatitis brought on by alcoholism." RedSpruce 15:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Again, people die of hepatitis without ever drinking alcohol. People die of lung cancer without ever smoking. Unless the biographers have some medical evidence that directly link McCarthy's death to alcoholism, how can we possibly make a statement that we don't know to be true? The body of the article already discusses his heavy drinking in the "Final years" section. It states: The official cause death was listed as acute hepatitis; an inflammation of the liver. It was hinted in the press that he died of alcoholism, an estimation that is accepted by contemporary biographers. So why do we need to repeat the allegation in the intro section that is actually meant to summarize, not go into speculation about his death? Merely stating that "The official cause of his death was acute hepatitis." would suffice in the intro. That is a factual statement. Anything beyond that is speculation and is mentioned in the "Final years" section. Jtpaladin 16:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, in a sense it is speculation, or analysis, or interpretation. These are the things secondary sources are supposed to do; that is why they are valued over primary sources. "What we know to be true" is not relevant here; to quote the WP policy: "The threshold for inclusion in an article is verifiability, not truth." The "verifiability" here lies in the fact that all the reliable secondary sources are in agreement on this point. The primary source in this case, on the other hand, is a deliberate half-truth -- the exact sort of thing that makes the contributions of secondary sources necessary.

Again, if you want to argue against WP policy, please do so in the appropriate forum. RedSpruce 17:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

My 2 cents are above, but to reiterate: stating that "the official cause of death was acute hepatitis" is misleading by virtue of omission. If numerous reliable secondary sources blame his death on alcoholism, then Wikipedia needs to reflect that. After all, Wikipedia is supposed to summarize the knowledge contained in reliable secondary sources, not recapitulate a coroner's report without context. MastCell ^Talk 17:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"unsubstantiated claims"?

Why is the article suggesting that McCarthy's claims were "unsubstantiated"? It's mentioned twice in the intro alone!!

He was noted for making unsubstantiated claims that there were large numbers of Communists and Soviet spies and sympathizers inside the federal government.

McCarthy was never able to substantiate his sensational charges.

Can someone please reference a specific claim where McCarthy was wrong in this regard? Certainly we are not suggesting that McCarthy wasn't right about Communists in govt., right?[3][4][5] Anyone who has read the Executive Session transcripts and/or Venona will find that McCarthy did in fact find Communists in govt. Can someone substantiate this comment in the article? Thank you. Jtpaladin 15:44, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

In all cases, the context of any statement about unsubstantiated claims provides the references that show that the claims were unsubstantiated.

As for the requests for citation that you've added to the article, it isn't clear what you want citations for. Because these are introductory sentences, they're broad and general, so no single citation can support everything they cover. Every point in those sentences is fully supported, with citations, in the body of the article. RedSpruce 16:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

There are also other citations in the intro paragraph. I just thought it would be appropriate to cite these comments as well. I agree with you that they are broad statements. That's one reason why I don't particularly like them. They are too easy to make and too easy to attack. Maybe the intro should just stick to a NPOV and leave the questions and arguments for the body of the article. Does that make good sense? Jtpaladin 16:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

No it doesn't, for the reason noted below. RedSpruce 16:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Tactics and censure?

Can someone substantiate this:

Ultimately, his tactics led to his being discredited and censured by the United States Senate.

What tactics are we talking about here? You mean the kind of tactics used by Congressional members to question organized crime figures? How was he discredited? When did a "censure" happen? McCarthy was "condemned" by the Senate, not "censured". There is a difference. Jtpaladin 15:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The article substantiates the statement, in most unequivocal terms. The article also points out (with citations) that the term "censure" is generally used, despite the fact that the word "condemned" appeared in the text of the resolution. In other words, in the eyes of historians and the Senate, there is not a difference between the two. RedSpruce 16:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, don't you think that the intro should just stick to a NPOV format and leave the body for specifics? Also, from my reading, there is a difference between "censure" and "condemned". Shouldn't we stick to the facts rather than using terms that don't apply? On a side note, I honestly appreciate your professionalism in dealing with these concerns. Thank you. Jtpaladin 16:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Find a reliable source that argues there's a meaningful difference between the two and cite it. It's the purpose of the intro to briefly describe McCarthy's career and to note what he is famous for. There is no way to do the latter thing while still remaining what you would call "neutral." He is noted in history as a bad person, therefor the intro has to briefly explain this. RedSpruce 16:19, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

There may be no difference but it would be more accurate to report the exact wording. See[6] Jtpaladin 18:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The more accurate reporting would be to use the term that is (by far) most often used by lay-people, scholars and government documents, with a brief discussion (as is already in the article) about the alternate use of "condemned." RedSpruce 18:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that rumor should weigh as heavily as official govt. record? I mean, this isn't some huge intricate issue. It's a simple job of looking at the resolution and quoting it. The link I provided goes directly to the Senate webpage and states exactly what happened. I've seen some anti-McCarthy articles say all kinds of bizarre things as to why he was "censured" by the Senate. Rumor tends to build on rumor. Jtpaladin 18:36, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

The vast majority of reliable secondary sources use "censure" primarily and mention the "condemn" technicality only briefly. The article reflects this balance, therefor the article is correct by WP standards. RedSpruce 21:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"After several largely undistinguished years in the Senate,..." POV

Most junior senators don't have particularly distinguished terms in the first few years. They don't have seniority so they don't get to be chairmen or serve on important committees. Also, McCarthy was part of the minority party so his opportunities were even fewer. So should every biography about every junior senator that has ever served in the U.S. Senate be tagged as "undistinguished"? This is a POV of view comment. Anyone see it differently? Jtpaladin 15:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank goodness for "luck"

What is the point of saying this:

However, in 1939, McCarthy's luck was better: he successfully vied for the elected post of the non-partisan 10th District circuit judge.

So he became a judge based on luck? Who wrote this nonsense? Why don't we say that because of "the hand of God" he became judge? Or, how about we say that because of "Zeus" he became judge? Wait, I've got one more. How about we say that because of "Satan" he became judge? I think some people would prefer the later. Anyway, the part about "luck" should be stricken as being utterly and indefensibly stupid and POV. Jtpaladin 16:22, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

In this case, I think you have a perfectly valid point. A microscopically trivial point, since "luck" is often used in cases like this, but a valid one. For the sake of us trying to keep up with your comments, perhaps in the future you could try to restrain your word count when you're dealing with trivia. RedSpruce 16:28, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for handling this. I appreciate it. I realize that my initial discussion items are not of huge importance but these little items are what as a whole become part of a larger effort to discredit every single thing McCarthy has accomplished. Even winning a judgeship is pinned on "luck". The only way to deal with an article that is a tug-of-war is by one item at a time. Believe me, I have no interest in spending this much time on such small issues but in the interest of balance and fairness, there's really no other way of doing it. If I start lumping varying issues together, they can easily get lost in the melee that ensues. Jtpaladin 18:32, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

U.S. Marines choice

About this comment:

McCarthy reportedly chose the Marines with the hope that being a veteran of this branch of the military would serve him best in his future political career.

I realize that there is a citation from Herman about McCarthy's choice to join the Marines but what is it that Herman said and how did he come to this conclusion? Just citing a book is not good enough. We need a specific reference. A page number. A name of a person that knows what McCarthy said and when he said it. Can anyone shed some light on this? Jtpaladin 16:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

A page number is already given in the reference. You might want to slow down the pace of your comments, and try to make them more accurate. RedSpruce 16:36, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if you have a copy of this book but if you do, can you cite what source Herman is using? I have a copy of this book but it's in storage. I could order another copy from Amazon but I would rather not. Please let me know. Thanks. Jtpaladin 18:38, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I have the book and the citation is correct. I'd be happy to help you with your research, if in return you will promise to apply that research to some project that is as far away from Wikipedia as possible. RedSpruce 02:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks but I'll take the cash instead. I just hate to pay for the Herman book again. If you know what he said, would you mind posting his exact words? Also, I'm going to have to buy those anti-McCarthy books that are so full of errors. Thankfully they sell for next to nothing used on Amazon. Yes, they are nearly worthless in more than one way. Jtpaladin 15:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Trivia Section

This was tagged, and quickly reverted, so we'll bring it here again. As it was already pointed out, this article is long. The popular culture section doesn't really add anything to the article, except to collect various trivial mentions of his name. This doesn't really convey any real information about him or help readers understand more about McCarthy. The only previous discussion on this I noticed was Talk:Joseph_McCarthy/Archive_6#Popular_culture which is hardly overwhelming support, in fact KarlBunker seems to support it only if it doesn't collect random bits of information which it currently seems to hold. in fact DCGeist doesn't even seem to support it so much as he seems to just want a better argument for its removal. --Crossmr 14:47, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that this section tries to grab on to every possible reference of McCarthy in popular culture. The most absurd examples are:

• In 1953, the popular comic strip Pogo introduced Simple J. Malarkey, a pugnacious and conniving wildcat with an unmistakable physical resemblance to McCarthy.

• The radio comedy team Bob and Ray parodied McCarthy in 1954 with the character Commissioner Carstairs in their soap opera spoof "Mary Backstayge, Noble Wife."

• The Investigator (1954), a satirical radio play first broadcast by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, associates the title character, who clearly represents McCarthy, with several historical "witch hunters."

This one doesn't even belong here because it doesn't fit the profile of being from popular culture. It might as well be stuck with all the other biased anti-McCarthy references jammed into the references section --> *In 1964, director Emile de Antonio released a documentary on the Army-McCarthy hearings, drawn from archival television footage, called "Point of Order!".

Oh, come on. This is quite a stretch --> *In Wu Ming's novel 54 (2003), Cary Grant and David Niven mock McCarthy's sloppy manner of dress. At the end of the novel, the apparition of Frances Farmer appears to Grant and expresses relief at McCarthy's demise.

The rest are fair enough for this section. I support the removal of the above based on the fact they don't directly mention McCarthy. Jtpaladin 17:16, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

At this point, I support the removal of the Pop Culture section altogether. RedSpruce 17:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm with RedSpruce on this one. Jtpaladin 18:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Notability filter (for popular culture section)

I see that a lively discussion has already started. Here is my proposed trimming of the popular culture section, not based on pro- or anti-McCarthy, but based on external notability or historical relevance:

• KEEP as quasi-historical -- appeared during McCarthy's lifetime and may have formed part of the debate: Pogo, Bob and Ray, The Investigator
• KEEP since they won awards -- The Manchurian Candidate (Oscar nominations), Tail Gunner Joe (Emmy awards), Good Night and Good Luck (Oscar nominations)
• OMIT because less notable -- 54 (novel), Paranoid Time, Document (album): no awards listed in their respective articles; Hal Block and Joe Glazer songs about McCarthy -- not even mentioned in their respective articles, Point of Order (film) -- no awards, but since it has footage of hearings, it might find a home in the reference list.

EdJohnston 17:53, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Military service

Let's start with this one:

It is well documented that McCarthy exaggerated his war record.

OK, if it's so well documented, where's the citation?

Next:

Despite his automatic commission, he claimed to have enlisted as a "buck private."

Where did he say that? I didn't see any wording in either the Herman or Morgan references that quote anything about McCarthy claiming that he enlisted as a Buck Private.

Third:

He flew 12 combat missions as a gunner-observer, but later claimed 32 missions...

Ok, again, what U.S. Marine document supports this view? Who were the eyewitnesses?

Fourth:

McCarthy publicized a letter of commendation signed by his commanding officer and countersigned by Admiral Chester Nimitz, but it was revealed that McCarthy had written this letter himself, in his capacity as intelligence officer.

I know for a fact that it's not uncommon for someone to write their own commendation. However, even so, where is the evidence that he wrote it himself?

Fifth:

A "war wound" that McCarthy made the subject of varying stories involving airplane crashes or antiaircraft fire was in fact received aboard ship during an initiation ceremony for sailors who cross the equator for the first time.

Citation, please? Jtpaladin 18:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

All of these points are covered in the citations. In one case (the reference to "buck private") the page number 22 should be added to the Herman footnote, in addition to 30. In several cases you're asking for "evidence." Once again, this is not how Wikipedia works. The cited reliable sources said these things; whether or not the evidence happens to meet your standards is irrelevant.

Armistice in place?

I've watched the on-going edit wars here for several months now. I am not an editor of this article, just an occasional arbiter of disputes, dispenser of advice, etc., and it seems to me that the article is not substantially better now than it was at the first of the year. Recently, the byte count has leveled-out at about 101,000, and it has remained there for a while.

All of this indicates to me that you have entered the "pure attrition" phase of your war. McCarthy (the article) has become more and more like the Second Battle of the Somme (the actual battle), a senseless waste of human capital. Why don't you all take the pledge to leave the damned thing alone for the summer? Then, come back on September 1 and ask yourself whether the things that enflamed your passions nine weeks earlier still make the ol' blood boil. Perhaps you'll come to the same conclusion I have come to, too: lately, there have been only two kinds of edits, -- silly edits and damned silly edits.

C'mon, take the pledge.

Wishing you zephyrs and pina coladas, I am PeterHuntington 20:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC).

Speaking of senseless waste, was there some point to those 200 words? RedSpruce 21:21, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Comment from adminstrator MastCell

Since this comment applies to most of the edits that Jtpaladin has been arguing for, I'm copying it here from Jtpaladin 's talk page for the edification of all: RedSpruce 21:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Since this discussion appears to be ongoing here and at the article talk page (where it might be more appropriate), I thought I'd chime in. Jtpaladin quotes the section of WP:RS which describes reliable sources as those whose authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. In this case, the subject at hand is Joseph McCarthy. His biographers are trustworthy and authoritative on that subject, including his congressional career, his family history, his alcoholism, and yes, how he died. There's no need for a separate, dedicated expert for each one of those areas - his biographers are expert on the subject of McCarthy. To insist that only a physician or medical professional can adequately describe his cause of death is contrary to both the spirit and, I believe, the letter of the guideline and sounds sort of like Wikilawyering. MastCell ^Talk 19:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)