Talk:Face of Boe

Should this be merged into List of Doctor Who monsters? --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 04:07, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

It should certainly be merged somewhere, but I'm not sure that's the proper place. List of Doctor Who villains doesn't seem right either. Huh.--Sean|Black 04:19, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Now that monsters are at the more neutral List of Doctor Who aliens, should the Face be merged into that list? Or does his return in the second series mean that he merits a page of his own? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:51, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd say it's long enough not to be a stub, and will be added to when he shows up again. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 07:17, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I think The Face Of Boe might turn out to be very important - we are constantly being reminded of him in Series 1, so he should have his own page. DavidFarmbrough 09:54, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Just found out that the face of boe may be Captain Jack Harkness God0fgod 21:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

There should be no merger, the Face of Boe is a major character and has his own sub-plot throughout the first three seasons (maybe more?). 75.89.36.161 22:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, he is important enough to have his own page. Appearing over all three seasons and being referenced many times means he is notable enough Tphi 02:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I know it's been confirmed by RTD, but they're still so different that I reakon the articles should remain different but have heavy reporting on the article that they ARE the same character.

That would be the age-old question whether utterances even by the creator in secondary sources (such as podcasts and the Confidentials) can be counted as canon. Creators of other shows have said things in interviews and companions and then ended up doing something else in the original source on the long run. So, unless it becomes clearer on the show, more than just one line thrown in, I don't think merging this with the Jack Harkness article would be of merit. It is being mentioned in Jack's article, so I think that is enough. We're not merging all articles of all the Doctors either. It would just get too long. Little-quiqueg 10:20, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Change name

It seems to me that the correct spelling would be 'The Face of Beau' given Jack's reference to the nickname at the Time Agency, no?

No, he is from the Boeshane Peninsula and therefore got the name the "Face of Boe"(shane).

Telepathic

Just watched New Earth and the Face spoke with the Doctor and Rose by telepathy. He also told the Doctor they would meet again, so it looks like keeping this as a separate article was correct. HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 19:31, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Secret

Does anyone else think "You are not alone" might be a likely candidate for the Face's big secret? In the Doctor Who 2006 Annual, the piece on the Doctor by RTD said that on a distant planet there was a stone, with carvings of a mass destruction, and one lone survivor walking away. Below this are the words, "you are not alone". This could of course refer to the Dalek, but it's always possible it means that another Time Lord survived. Let's just hope it's Romana and not the Rani, eh? --Codenamecuckoo 08:52, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

The four words might be "I am your father"! ;) Tanru 14:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is now speculation chat and not about the Face of Boe page, but it might be worth remembering that the Face will reveal his secret to one of his own kind. This either means that the Face is himself a Time Lord, or that it won't be the Doctor to whom he reveals his secret, even though the Doctor will be present....or it could mean that the Doctor isn't a Time Lord but a big stone face! DavidFarmbrough 08:01, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Or that "his own kind" doesn't refer to species, but to being the last survivor of a long-dead race (which was how I read it)... —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 08:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

The Face being a timelord is quite a possibility - think about what he said in response to being asked about him living for millions of years. As a timelord he could have travelled across those millions of years, without being millions of years old. Very interesting stuff. David 19:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems unlikely to me, not least because of the RTD-written bit in the book Monsters and Villains, which gives more backstory about the Face, and his status as the last of Boekind. Plus, what exactly would be involved in a Gallifreyan (basically humanoid, give or take the extra heart and respiratory bypass system) transforming into a giant head with dreadlocks? I shudder to imagine. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

'According to the show's producer (Russell T. Davies) when this time comes the Face will pass on the four words that make up the secret to the Doctor, and that it will be "fantastic".' -- Crap. Any time RTD describes something as "it will be fantastic" it ends up being total garbage. Now I'm dreading it. Ravenswood 17:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Well whether it turns out to be 'fantastic' or 'garbage', this wikipedia entry suggests we will find out in the next series: "In an interview in DWM #374 Davies confirmed that the Face would say his message in season three, and that this was connected to the season finale." Which is good to hear because I was worried that it would end up being left as late as possible to build up suspense and then become the victim of the series somehow being cancelled so we never found out... At least this way we know we'll hear it, even if it turns out to be rubbish. I think I'll try and remain optimistic for now though... How about "I'm a little teapot"? :P Aetyr 00:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Or 'How Are You Gentlemen?'

--lazyguy 19:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Category: Fictional Prophets

Apart from my astonishment that any such category exists, is the Face really a prophet? All he has been seen to prophesy is that he and the Doctor will meet again when he will reveal his secret. That's a one-off, isn't it? And too specific and personal to qualify him as a 'prophet'? DavidFarmbrough 07:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it's a bit of a reach. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 16:14, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Living TARDIS?

Well there's speculation that this head is a Time Lord.. but after he "teleported" away suddenly at the end of New Earth, perhaps he didn't teleport at all, but travelled to another time? Maybe he's a living TARDIS (Ala Compassion)? This could help explain some of the confusion about his age too.. Anyway, just a random thought. :P Rehevkor 13:38, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Citation, or something

The paragraph that begins "We are told" is very mysterious. What is the source of the statements made in this section? Also, this paragraph is written in the first person, instead of third. Ravenswood 17:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Expansion on "You are not alone"

If we put together the facts that:

- The Doctor Who Annual 2006 mentions the phrase "You are not alone" in relation to the timewar. - RTD says that TFOB will say 4 words. - Those 4 words relate to the third series finalé. - And finally the rumours of The Master being in the third series finalé..

Does this warrant a sub-category mentioning the theories about "You are not alone" and what this could mean in relation to the finalé as well as The Master? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gothicfrog (talk • contribs) 23:04, March 11, 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think there's any way to do that without veering into original research. If you can find any of this speculation in a reliable source (such as Doctor Who Magazine or SFX), then we could include it with proper attribution, but otherwise we can't put it in.

The good news is that we won't have long to wait before we see the Face again, and presumably hear those four words, at which point we won't need to speculate. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Well now its definite.

Doesn't Susan Foreman, the First Doctors granddaughter, marry a Human after the Dalek Invasion of Earth. If she had died, but had had a child, that child would not have been a full-blooded Time Lord, and so the Doctor may not fell him (his great-grandchild), and so may not have been killed in the Time war. Furthermore, Susan herself may have been isolated from the war (she was left with no TARDIS), and so survived. Without a TARDIS and its telepathic circuits, she could be undetectable to teh Doctor, and so she or her descendants could be what the FOB meant by "you are not alone" adn "you are the last of your kind". Possibly, she is herself brought before the Galiffrey council, and given a choice similar to that of Elrond in the Lord of the Rings, to choose to be human or Time Lord, and her children also given that choice (as Arwen was).

Which is right?

The line which says "After hearing the message, The Doctor tells Martha that The Face of Boe was wrong, although it has not yet been revealed which of the two is correct" needs editing I think as apparently in the Confidential episode after Gridlock it was said (I think by Russel T but I'm going on second-hand information here) that both were right, and that the secret's not as simple as it sounds. Someone who's seen the Confidential episode may be able to write this in officially, as I'm still downloading it to watch myself. Aetyr 10:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Bad link

At the end of the article, in the see also part there is a “The Face of Boe's "Lonely God" prophecy” link, but the page it leads to doesn't have anything on the subject

83.15.56.98 19:19, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Jack Harkness merge

I don't think that the articles should be merged as The Face of Boe is totally independent from Jack despite being him in the future. I would however add a link to the page to the Jack Harkness article. NightLord 18:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Might be Jack in the future. Definitely not merge. Daibhid C 18:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Russell T Davies did say that the Face of Boe would make a very important announcement in the last episode, this must be it? He just made the announcement when he was younger. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 19:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Are there any pre-cursors to this in other articles like this? Is there an example of where a character has had two aliases before? If not there should probably a bold sentence in both the articles lead-ins referring to the 'other' character. ≈ Maurauth ^(Ravenor) 19:00, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Clark Kent and Superman have separate articles, which sets a bit of a precident. We also have nowhere near enough information yet on the subject, so I'd suggest keeping these two separate. Zytch 19:05, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't believe the episode has only just finished and people are already discussing whether to merge the two. Whoever thought of merging them is an idiot.

I am not an idiot LizzieHarrison 19:16, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest NOT merging. There is no conclusive evidence that Jack is the Face of Boe. Just a coincidence.

No merge. LuciferMorgan 19:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Dont merge that would suck big time! I didn't see the Face of Boe flirting with his nurse so he couldnt be 100% Captain Jack :}

• Don't merge. Its not been confirmed and anyway they are as separate as the ten Doctors.--GwydionM 19:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Definitely merge. It's been confirmed they are one and the same. To keep it separate would be equivalent to keeping John Simm's Master separate from Delgado and Ainsley's. The Tribe of Gum 19:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Please, if you have evidence that they're are confirmed to be the same person, link it.

Merge. They are the same character, even if the Doctor doesn't admit it. Will ^(talk) 19:20, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't merge as per Zytch. MikeHobday 19:22, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Some people are using words "Are" and "Confirmed" but have no evidence. To those people, Santa exists. 8-)

If I may, I say Don't merge, as the connection between Jack and Boe is only implied, not explicitly stated. If a later series explicitly states that Jack is Boe , then it might be a worthwile venture. Also, on the same basis, I'd suggest that any references that state this as fact are removed, or made to sound like a suggestion.

I'm very annoyed that someone has edited the Face of Boe page stating fact that it's true. It's only implied in the episode, not confirmed. I agree with above comment, I suggest removing any factual statement on the page and make it say implied. As a result, John Barrowman should be removed from the portrayal list. (Sam3773 19:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC))

• Don't merge. While it's all but confirmed they're the same, I'd go with the Clark Kent/Superman precedent here. Same person different characters. - Mgm|^(talk) 19:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Oppose - it's not been confirmed, merely mooted as a suggestion. In the meantime, the FoB is a character in his own right, distnct from Jack. mattbuck 19:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge. As MacGyverMagic says, it's the same person, but different characters. Kelvingreen 19:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Don’t merge – perhaps we should wait until one of the shows explains more (e.g. how does the man who can never die, actually die?) If we do merge and it turns out that what Jack said was just a joke/coincidence, then we would have to go through the trouble of splitting them all over again. Also, if we do merge then it would have to be tagged with a warning about the info potentially being incorrect. yettie0711 20:13, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't merge - per Clark/Superman precedent. Will ^(talk) 20:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge It's implied not stated for certain (and the Doctor is sceptical); it's also a spoiler to merge (it's only 90 minutes since this was first broadcast - we should give consideration for international viewers) and the characters are portrayed as distinctive and are separate in the narrative at the time of their appearances. We have separate articles for each Doctor as well as for the Valeyard. And looking at other fictional universes both Megatron/Galvatron and Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader have separate pages when there's a much stronger case for single articles. Timrollpickering 20:28, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yeah, it's a pretty silly suggestion. I'd rather suggest contracting the whole thing into 3 paragraphs, putting it under List of Doctor Who monsters and aliens#Face of Boe and then linking to that where necessary from the Jack, Master and episode articles.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 20:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Honestly seeing that both Jack and Boe are the same race and the link between the two is implied stongly this should be mentioned but not set in stone because normally Russell T Davies hints at something it is true but its such a dodgy connection to get wrong no merging should be formed. Boe is defiantely not a Dr Who monster though and should rightly have his own page because he is an important character.

Dont merge, the actual characters are completely different, and it is as though they become seperate people.

• Don't Merge I don't like the suggestions to merge with Jack Harkness or List of Doctor Who monsters and aliens. Not unless a way of merging them is found without the loss of information that usually happens. You'll probably end up with about one paragraph on the Face of Boe with almost all of the infomation on the article lost. So much information is lost this way on Wikipedia, It's quite sad. Danjewell 22:15, 30 June 2007 (GMT)

• Merge This needs to be merger with the List. The Face of Boe has only a few lines ever and even though his cryptic messages play a very important role in the setting up of entire seasons arc's, it is not enough for its own article.

• Don't Merge - absolutely no confirmation that Jack and the Face are one and the same. --Tailkinker 22:55, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge even if they are the same being, they're not the same character (Superman/Clark kent precedent), and as spoilers go, it would be akin to making planet of the apes redirect to earth. 82.8.49.205 22:59, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Don't Merge as per Timrollpickering. -Skulking

• Don't merge Even if they are absolutely and conclusively the same character in the past and future, they are still very different and distinct elements of the Doctor Who Universe. Compare the current separate entries for First Doctor, Second Doctor, etc. Rob T Firefly 02:30, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge I enjoy following the links. Besides it will take some time for the series to make it to the states. While I took in an early peak, to avoid just this sort of spoiler, many state side Doctor Who fans would like to wait and watch events unfold in the proper course of time. SheepDoll 03:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge - Huge spoiler for people; just plain wrong. Kether83 07:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Don't merge - Along with the ClarkKent/Superman precedent, there is a likely potential that the character could be encountered by the doctor in later episodes as a major character.

• Don't merge - Just don't. Not because it's stateside or not, but just don't. I don't agree with citing the Face of Boe as human either. In what way is he human in the form we know him? The Face of Boe is the Face of Boe, and even though he may have mutated from Captain Jack, he is NOT HUMAN.George Adam Horváth 10:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

bit at the end of the article

"Captain Jack has been seen on the show to die and come back to life, it is therefore possible that the Face of Boe came back to life soon after the Doctor left, and could still have been alive around the time of the events of Utopia, which could explain the possible connections between Yana and the Face of Boe" <<< This doesn't make much sense? Wouldn't it be simpler to assume that if the Face of Boe is Captain Jack, then he knew about Yana because he had been there- as captain jack ? it is time travel. Novium 19:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

True that. The Face is already aware that the Doctor is "not alone" in the year 5 billion-and-whatever, but "Yana" doesn't come into existence until the end of the universe. It would seem to me that the Face's being Jack is intended to serve as an explanation, then, for how the Face can know about Yana when trillions of years separate these two events. - Chris McFeely 19:41, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, I'd say Occam's Razor goes here. Why bother with a complicated time travel theory if you can reach the same result with out it? - Mgm|^(talk) 19:43, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

RTD said, after The Face's "death", that his story wasn't done. Seems to be an odd thing to say if Jack being The Face was just a joke, doesn't it? Let's apply some common sense before it becomes an edit war. Kelvingreen 19:48, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I hope that it is not the case, even if it ties up that one storyline, it's kind of unsatisfactory for everything else, considering all the references (mentioned in the article, at least) to boe-kind, etc.

We should remove the later conjecture in the article, as the connection between Jack and Boe is speculative only and there is no concrete proof. It should be mentioned of the possible connection, and we should remove the episode listings pending any new evidence --User:Lyinginbedmon 22:18 30/06/2007

Clean Up?

Does anyone else think this article could do with a clean up? It seems that nearly every paragraph has been added after every appearance of the Face of Boe. (e.g. it king of goes; this happened and then this happened and then this happened (if you know what I mean)). Also some of the paragraphs need a little updating. (e.g. in paragraph 8 there is a line that says, “…perhaps implying that The Doctor is not the last surviving Time Lord”. We know he’s not the last surviving Time Lord because of the Master (although he could be now). Also I think that a few headings would help this article greatly. yettie0711 20:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

do merge

it is obvious that the face is jack, come on its obvious. hears my reason: Jack, realising that only he, Martha and the Doctor know about the master hiding at the universes end and the YANA acronym, used his seeming immortality to give the message about the masters existance to the Doctor 5 billion years into the future, but because he still aged at a slow rate, he had changed massively. using the name: Face of Boe because he told the Doctor about it being his nick name as a child, ensured that the Doctor (the doctor at the end of 'last of the timelords') would realise that the face of boe was actually who Jack would become. this theory also provides an alternative reason to why rose would have given jack immortality (beyond the reason the doctor gave, which as that rose couldnt control his resurection);so that he would live long enough so he could give the doctor the message that would result in the events of the series 3 finale, and also would result in jack learning the information that he would give to the doctor in the future, so that his past self would also learn the information to give to the doctor aswell, thus creating an Ontological paradox, in the sense that he gets his information from his future self through the doctor. this is more likely than rose simply not having enough control to stop jack constantly resurrecting, as she was able to see all of time and would have realised that she, not only created badwolf, but also the face of boe, and would have set into motion the events that created him aswell as those that created badwolf. plus the fact that the name face of boe is so rare it has to be him, oh and when he says he is the last of his species, he isnt lying because all the humans of the boe penisala are dead, making him the last one.

1. Sign your posts. 2. Read a little further up the page. 3. Although they may be the same BEING, they are different CHARACTERS (c.f. Superman and Clark Kent). 59.100.13.147 04:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Podcast - Last of the Time Lords

RTD comfirms Jack is the Face of Boe. Link is given in the Origins section of the article 86.4.237.219 04:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I've listened to the podcast, but it's a bit of a jumble at that point. What quote are you referring to?--Trystan 06:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Merge Talk

I can understand the urge to want to merge this article with Captain Jack Harkness, but to simply put it in the List of Doctor Who Aliens, is simply mind boggling. One he is a fairly main character, or at least an important one. Two, he is Jack, but I agree that the Superman/Clark Kent precedent wins here. In my opinion putting something into a list article is akin to just deleting the article. I say we just keep it as is. mpbx 05:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)