User talk:RedSpruce

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/Archive 1: to March 1, 2007

Joe Mac Pop

Karl, Just to elaborate on my comment in this thread: Talk:Joseph_McCarthy#Popular_culture. I don't lean strongly either toward keeping or deleting the section and am happy to defer to your preference. My sense is simply that, with the section having become an issue, it's in the interest of the article's short- and long-term stability to have a well-reasoned discussion and conclusion on the Talk page. Best, Dan.—DCGeist 04:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

J. Edgar Hoover

What are you afraid of in terms of eliminating reference to the KGB and Hoover's alleged homosexuality? Not making him look like a buffoon. Perhaps you have no understanding of the KGB and its tactics. For example, the recent admissions from the KGB archives show that it was behind the myth that Pius XII did nothing to help the Jews during the Holocaust, an assertion that is baseless in fact.--146.145.70.250 21:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with the KGB's tactics. Hoover was a man who never married, who was never known to date women, who spent almost all of his free time, as well as much of his time at work, with a male friend. Under those circumstances, any mention of anyone "starting the rumor" that he was a homosexual is simply silly. If the KGB did expend any effort in spreading this rumor, doing so was act of utter irrelevance. RedSpruce 01:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

McCarthy

Karl, I like your changes to the lead. You summarize 50-54 much better than I would have been able to do it.

On a separate note, I'm increasingly uncomfortable with Second Red Scare redirecting to "McCarthyism." I think I initially raised this point at Talk there last month, and I know you disagree, but hear me out for a moment. While I realize that there is much common usage of the term McCarthyism to indicate the period that encompasses the 2RS, you have also acknowledged that the 2RS includes some years in the 1940s that predate McCarthy's fame or involvement with anti-Communism, specifically and importantly the Truman State Department loyalty oath/purge thing, as well as HUAC, which as we both know wasn't related to McCarthy the man. None of that is new or controversial in general or between us. Where I'm going with it is that I think making the whole era synonymous with McCarthyism (especially given the modern connotation of the term) amounts to attributing too much prominence to the man himself, sort of an ad hominem emphasis on 15 years of American history. I'm not suggesting McCarthy wasn't "the most famous public face of anti-Communist sentiment" or however we're describing him. I'm not suggesting the term isn't generally used (a google search shows that it is). However, a google search also shows "Second Red Scare" is commonly used and to me it seems like there's a distinction between it and McCarthyism, both in the period of time (ie the parts predating 1950) and in the style and character of it (like Truman's dismissals weren't all unsubstantiated attacks on people's patriotism in the style of McCarthy, they actually involved firing Communist sympathizers/agents, etc.).

What I hope you will consider is making the main subject article "Second Red Scare," and have "McCarthyism" redirect to it, rather than the way we have it now. McCarthyism would still be the major focus of the article and would represent the bulk of it, but the 2RS article could give a bit more of the pre- and post-McCarthy/McCarthyism context without hanging it all on Joe McCarthy. Let me know what you think. Kaisershatner 15:43, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You're entirely correct that the beginning of the second red scare predates McCarthy. Likewise did the gradual end of the second red scare postdate the time when McCarthy had any notable voice in America. However, the fact is that all of the scholars on the subject that I've read use the terms "second red scare" and "McCarthyism" synonymously. And I've read enough of the prominent works in the field so that I'm confident that if there are any scholars out there who make a distinction between the two, theirs is a minority view. (I'd be very interested in reading the views of any such scholars, if you know of any.) Furthermore, "McCarthyism" is the far more commonly used term. Google book search shows 101 books with "McCarthyism" in the title, 91 with "red scare" in the title (many of which are about the first red scare), and none with "second red scare" in the title. All "histories of McCarthyism" make it very clear that the period of history they're talking about by no means coincides with the career of Joseph McCarthy. It just so happens that his name has been used to name that period of history. And that holds true for the WP article on McCarthyism too; to quote the first sentence of the first section after the introduction: "The historical period known as McCarthyism began well before Joseph McCarthy's own involvement in it." RedSpruce 18:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You might be interested in this, if you haven't read it; it seems to articulate my point in a much more thorough way than I can.[1] Kaisershatner 14:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I've read the book. About the only point it articulates is that although McCarthy was a horrible person, that's okay because he was against Communists. It's a point that might have some validity if McCarthy had ever caught any Communists. Roughly the same holds true for McCarthyism. It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if there was more of a connection between the two stories. That is, if something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed. It didn't, so the only grounds for discussing actual Soviet espionage is in mentioning that such activity helped to provide the paranoid background that gave rise to McCarthyism. RedSpruce 14:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused. One the one hand, above you are taking the position that "It would make sense to have more discussion of the actual Soviet espionage and subversion activities in the U.S. in the McCarthyism article if...something that's identified as "McCarthyism" had ever resulted in any notable illegal Soviet or Communist activities being exposed," and on the other hand, that "that the beginning of the second red scare predates McCarthy. Likewise did the gradual end of the second red scare postdate the time when McCarthy had any notable voice in America." Since the purge of the State Department by Truman and the exposure of actual Soviet agents within the US should, in your view, fall under the McCarthyism article, shouldn't it make sense to discuss those things there in detail? Kaisershatner 14:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Truman loyalty-security program is discussed in the McCarthy article. For the most part, the "exposure of actual Soviet agents" that occurred during this era did not occur because of anything that is identified as McCarthyism; it happened because of the revelations of defectors, and later because of Venona. One partial exception to this is the Hiss case, in that Hiss might not have been apprehended and convicted if not for HUAC. Because in this case there is an overlap between the story of McCarthyism and the story of actual Soviet espionage efforts, the Hiss case is discussed in the McCarthyism article. Apart from cases like this there is no real overlap in the two stories.

In short, the reason why cases of Soviet espionage should not be discussed in detail in the McCarthyism article is because it's an article about McCarthyism. I assume there's another article about Soviet espionage in the United States; if it's well written, it doesn't spend much space talking about McCarthyism. RedSpruce 15:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The Truman program is discussed, I am not asserting otherwise. However, I keep inserting, and you keep removing, mention in the introduction about actual Communist espionage during this period. About two months ago you wrote to me that "On the one hand, since McCarthyism is essentially defined as "baseless accusations and character assassination," it makes sense for the article to focus on that topic. On the other hand, I agree that the article should pay more attention the actual communist espionage and and infiltration that was discovered during the period, since those revelations, few though they were, formed part of the driving force behind McCarthyism." Do you feel the article has paid more attention to actual communist espionage since we discussed this in February? And are we using "McCarthyism" to mean "baseless anti-Communist accusations and fear" or "a period from the 1940s-1960s marked both by anti-Communist accusations and fears as well as by attempted Soviet infiltration of the US Government and controlling of the CPUSA?" Are the actual Communist activities relevant enough to the period to warrant mention in the introduction, or was it more simply just 20 years of demagoguery and fearmongering? Or something in the middle? Kaisershatner 17:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

The coverage of actual Soviet espionage has been increased (by one brief paragraph) since the exchange you mention. It is now more than sufficient, for the reasons I have stated. The correct definition of McCarthyism is the first one you mention. The second one you mention is not correct. The word does not refer simply to a period of history, nor to all Communism-related things that happened during a period of history. As the article states, it is a "term describing a period of intense anti-Communist suspicion in the United States that lasted roughly from the late 1940s to the late 1950s." If you believe that is incorrect, you merely have to demonstrate that a consensus of scholars holds a contradictory opinion. Simply repeating your opinion at me and asking me to repeat mine doesn't seem very productive to me. RedSpruce 18:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: 3RR noticeboard

Few quick points. 1) The template is so it's much easier for the admins to read that they're of the same reverts. 2) If someone's edit warring, page protection, requests for comments, and administrators' intervention against vandalism may apply. - Penwhale | Blast the Penwhale 08:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

McCarthyism comments

Sometimes my reviews do bring up a lot of points, but if you look at some of those, they are just suggestions on how to improve the visual appearance of the article (1 & 2), and many are just simple mistakes that can be fixed (4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16, & 17). I'm glad that you already fixed some of them. I know that I sometimes leave a lot of things to be fixed but I always leave the article on hold for seven days and in extreme cases longer than that. I don't like to fail articles (unless they deserve it), and I really think this article should be passed. Thanks for letting me know and good job fixing some of those suggestions. --Nehrams2020 17:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Joseph McCarthy

I would like to request mediation. I think you are continually removing sourced and neutral entries that improve this article. You assert that I am adding information that in your opinion is over-emphasized, trivial, and/or irrelevant. Mediation requires the agreement of both parties; thus my question- will you accept mediation? Kaisershatner 17:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure, go ahead. RedSpruce 00:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Karl, my apologies for running off in different directions. Before we move to mediation, which from what I am reading may take a very long time to resolve, I am going to invite a wider group of involved editors to comment. If they tell me I am way off base, for example, we might avoid a protracted argument that could be more simply resolved. Kaisershatner 17:18, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Louis Budenz

Thank you for your work on Mr Budenz' article. I am a relative of him and it is really interesting to find out what one of my distant uncles was up to.

Big Mac

If you'd consider taking another bite at it, write me at dancharlesgeist@hotmail.com —DCGeist 21:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks /Tet

Thank you for the kind remarks you left on my talk page, I was pleased to read them. I appreciate your helpful, polite criticism at Tet. I hope it becomes a good article. KAM 00:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

J Edgar Hoover

Hi: Please explain why you reverted the edits that I made to J. Edgar Hoover. BrianGV (Talk) 19:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Because the dif made it look like the only difference was a white space addition, and your later edit appeared to remove an important clarification. I see now that both interpretations were mistaken, but the article gets a lot of garbage edits, so I rv'd the whole batch. In other words, stuff happens.  :-) RedSpruce 20:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I see, thought it could be something like that, I'll change back those few others. Thanks for reply.

BrianGV (Talk) 23:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Peace offering

Please enter the discussion on Talk:Alger Hiss to resolve the conflict. 65.185.190.240 23:37, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Gunpowder

Hey,

Some meatwagon in gunpowder has accused you of fabricating the quote from Partington. Can you actually provide the page number, and if the text supports it, help provide a more balanced point of view?

Much Thanks, Ocanter 20:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposed Cold War History project

I notice that you had expressed interest in the proposal for a project relating to the Cold War at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Cold War history. The proposal has generated sufficient interest to be considered viable, but the original proposer has been inactive for some time, so no one has been following it. I was wondering whether you, as one of the interested parties, would be interested in establishing the project as an independent entity or possibly as a task force of Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history. Please indicate your opinion in the comments section here. Thank you for your interest in the subject, and for your timely response. John Carter 21:21, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Re: William Remington

Red, please put down the rhetorical weapon. If you will take a few deep breaths, then take a dispassionate look at your remarks on the William Remington talk page, I think you'll find that you have been acting as if you assume your judgment is superior to anyone else's. Only assertions you disagree with have to be justified; those you agree with are gospel. Yes, I do mean "gospel." You are reminding me of a neo-Confederate I tangled with over another article. If the comparison is objectionable to you, well, it should be. I assume that you are better than that, and that this behavior is not typical of you. So cut it out. -- Rob C (Alarob) 18:52, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Rob, I object to your tone here and even more so in this edit. I have raised perfectly valid points that Adrian has not addressed in a valid way. If you take a dispassionate look at the discussion, (after taking as many breaths as you like), I think you'll agree. I was asking of Adrian, and now I ask of you: If I am wrong, show me where I am wrong using a rational argument. People have shown me where I'm wrong many times before on WP, and when they've done so I have accepted it. But simply telling me I'm wrong is childish and I don't accept it. RedSpruce 18:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Listen, Red, I am sympathetic to your position and, from what I've seen, to Schrecker's reading of the McCarthy era and the context of Remington's murder. I am not trying to make you change your mind about anything. It is your behavior toward other editors that I am attempting to call your attention to here. You have been condescending. (If someone else belittled you first, that does not justify it, especially when you keep it up.) You have criticized Adrian M.H.'s logic, implied that he is too ignorant to contribute meaningfully to the article, and have pretended to know what his politics are and that they are guiding his editorial judgment. As for Jtpaladin, you have let his fringe views get to you, and you are personalizing the discussion over this article into a moral struggle. It is not.

I agree that Jtp has said some unpardonable things, and Adrian seemed a mite touchy. You could day each of them has poured a little oil on the flames. But it's not your job to see that they behave well. Nor is it my job to police your behavior. I'm just giving you information and awaiting your response, which I hope will be courteous. -- Rob C (Alarob) 19:24, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the much improved tone, Rob. I think there are 3 issues here:

1: I have challenged Adrian to be more rigorous in presenting his opinions--to use actual logic and evidence rather than tossing out meaningless "I like vanilla because it tastes better" opinions. I think I've actually had some success on this count, based on the progression of Adrian's recent responses.

2: I have treated people with some degree of the patronizing and insulting tone that they have used with me. This is less than ideal, obviously.

3:I have pursued an issue even after a compromise that I accepted was reached. This was (IMO) a possibly-valid thing to do in terms of item #1--I got Adrian to apply some actual thought to his comments, and a worthless thing to do in terms of item #2--I was enjoying the opportunity to continue to needle some people who had behaved badly.

So yes: bottom line, there's a lot of room for improvement in my behavior, and I'll continue to work on that. I'd say that puts me right on a level with, well, everyone. Including you.

RedSpruce 19:42, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I accept blame for, as you say, less than ideal behavior myself. If the sniping stops, on all sides, then that's all I ask. If either Adrian or Jtp takes another potshot, I would be grateful if you would fight fire with water, not fire. WP:AGF and so on.

As a general rule, I've found that telling people they are not thinking up to my standard is not normally very productive. I admit to having done it, but I am trying to quit. -- Rob C (Alarob) 19:56, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with that rule, so I've just reread the entire discussion to see where I said something that could be interpreted as telling someone "they are not thinking up to my standard." I can't find any such statement. I said at several points that people weren't presenting valid arguments, but I never, for example, called anyone particularly obtuse. RedSpruce 15:50, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

J Edgar Hoover

Why shouldn't there be a lain in state in caital rotunda box on J Edgar Hoover's page? He is listed in the succesion box on other pages. If it is true why shouldn't it be there and if it is not true then the other pages should be corrected. Azrich 07:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

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Gay and Lesbian Articles are NOT WORTHLESS

Dear RedSpruce, I understand and respect the serious nature of your contributions as being HISTORY which we need to document. I UNDERSTAND there is NO PROOF that J Edgar ever dressed in drag or was gay. It does not matter as this idea urban legend is so ingrained into Popular Culture that anything short of mass amnesia will cure it. I work with Herstory an article that has fought to be kept in Wiki because it does not involve dead white guys. I also deal with Gay and Lesbian culture which from Anthropology is just as valid as Roy Cohn as it documents aspects of society others (such as yourself) are not fimiliar. Erasing the link to a LGBT article is nothing short of a wikipedia HATE CRIMECr8tiv 15:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)