Talk:Vietnamese people

Note: This page contains material merged from the article Gin people. Please see that article's complete history here. See also Talk:Gin people. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 06:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Ho Chi Minh

Sorry if you oppose me, but I do not think that Ho Chi Minh would be deserving of being put as an example of a Vietnamese person, even though genetically he was one. 211.30.138.38 13:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Why not? He's one of the most well-known Vietnamese persons around. DHN 21:17, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Because overseas Vietnamese get agitated staring at a communist leader. 211.30.138.38 01:10, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

If you can find someone to replace his pic, be my guest. DHN 09:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your understanding. I see it's removed already. :) 211.31.58.206 02:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Why someone removed my image set? Can we ban Minhtung91 for vandalising the page?

Kinh

Does anyone know the origin of the ethnonym "Kinh", and why does it appear with the character for "capital" when used in Chinese? User:Le Anh-Huy

No idea, but you might be interested in this article about the Gin people in China from the POV of a Chinese ethnographer (translated to Vietnamese): [1]. Another article in a Vietnamese newspaper regarding the minority group: [2]. DHN 23:59, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Here's another "ethnography" of ethnic Vietnamese in China. There is something quite ethnocentric about this Beijing-controlled website, as Russians and Koreans are referred to by their English ethnonyms, but the Viets are just called "Jing"! http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/EthnicGroups/136919.htm Le Anh-Huy 02:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

Speculated Answer: Well, I heard this and I can't quite back it up, but it means the metropolitans, Kinh/Jing though means capital can also mean metropolitan. It's meaning maybe lost throughout the years, but could reflect that the modern Vietnamese ethnic group is neither the Lac or the other ethnic groups stated in the Legend of Lac Long Quan. Rather a mixed group of "metropolitans." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)

Vietnamese emigration after the Vietnam War

Large scale emigration did not occur immediately after the Vietnam War, despite the imagery of boat people fleeing on American helicopters and aircraft carriers. It was later around 1978 onwards did Chinese-Vietnamese flee in greater numbers, when their economic interests in the south were threatened by nationalisation.

The majority of boat people were Vietnamese, not Chinese. DHN 05:30, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

On the other hand, copious Hoa escaped with the Viet because of the Communists' harrasment.

Migration to the south after the Geneva Accords 1954

This page said that there were 2 million northern Vietnamese who migrated south after 1954. The following page, however, states that there were around 1 million people migrating from the North to the South during two years after the Geneva Accords: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1954)

In fact, the number are under 1 million. I have changed the information in this page accordingly.

Merge from Gin people

I don't see the purpose of having a separate article about the Gin, as if they were a different ethnic group. Hypothetically, it would be interesting to have an article about specifically about ethnic Vietnamese people in China, but we don't have anything like enough material for that yet. And anyway, "Gin" is just a different spelling of "Kinh", which is a synonym for "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Jing" is simply the Chinese pronunciation of that word. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 01:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Should Hoa merge with Chinese? 203.218.71.17 17:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

No, Hoa live in Vietnam. Likewise, Gin live in China.

Merger

Technically, merging Gin people with Vietnamese people would be like merging African-American with Black people. So we should do the same with that article.1028 00:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, no, if we make a mistake on this article, we certainly should not copy the same mistake on some other article to make up for it. More to the point, there are at least two important differences between this situation and the Black (people)-African American situation. First, the word "Gin" does not mean "Vietnamese Chinese people"; it just means "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Vietnamese Chinese would be something like 京族中国人 (Jingzu Zhongguoren—I don't know how to say it in Vietnamese). Second, there is already a well-written article about African-Americans, whereas there is not much of an article at Gin people. Furthermore, African-Americans have a culture distinct from people in African (they generally speak different languages, etc.), and I'm not sure that the Chinese Gins are that different from the Vietnamese Kinh. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 01:23, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I think they're different enough from other Vietnamese to have their own article. Perhaps rename the Gin people page to Gin people of China? DHN 01:30, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

That would be fine if we had a significant article about them. I've been one of the editors of Korean Chinese. However, in fact, we have about one short paragraph to say about the Gins of China, so I don't think that warrants a separate article as it stands. - Nat Krause^(Talk!) 01:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Seperate section for Myths and Facts

According to legend, the first Vietnamese descended from the dragon lord Lạc Long Quân and a heavenly spirit Âu Cơ. They marrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_peopleied and had one hundred eggs, from which hatched one hundred children. Their eldest son Hùng Vương ruled as the first Vietnamese king. The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River delta and mixed with the indigenous population.

In 258 BC, An Dương Vương founded the kingdom of Âu Lạc in what is now northern Vietnam. In 208 BC, Chao Tuo (known as Triệu Đà in Vietnamese), a former Qin Dynasty general from China, allied with the leaders of the Yue peoples in modern-day Guangdong and declared himself King of Southern Yue. He defeated An Dương Vương and then combined Âu Lạc with territories in southern China and named his kingdom Nam Việt, or Southern Yue (南越). (Nam means south). Việt is cognate to yuet 越, which is the pronunciation of Yue in ancient Chinese and some modern southern Chinese dialects. The term was used for various peoples in the region south of China, including the regions of northern Vietnam.

Do you think we should add a new section for facts and myth, althought the origins of vietnamese are shrouded in gray clouds, their language and pre-han culture does provide and in site. I notice that vietnamese language belongs in the Mon-Khmer languages, and many vietnamese customs are suprisingly simmiliar to those of other mon-khmers, such as chewing bewtel nuts and blackening teeths. Even thought the vietnames today are wholly resemble chinese, the muongs whom claim closely related to the vietnamese people resemble khmer and other mon-khmer people, do you think they are related? They share simmilarities like the tendency to be around rivers. And for the Bai Yue part, doesn't Bai Yue include hundreds of groups of people? And if the Kinh adopted an MK language, that would be kind of strange seeing as Kinhs were basically in the influence of those who spoke Sino-tibetan and most MK speakers were hill tribes? --user:leaki

They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thats what I mention, I basically said that its quite ludacris to say vietnamese were originally not mon-khmer, but I'm saying should we add a diffrent section on factual origins and include information on possible relations to other mon-khmer. --leaki

That's probably a good idea, if you can find some sources on that. DHN 20:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

For the last several decades, they've been using the term Viet-Muong as exclusive to the Viets and the Muong people, to the exclusion of the so-called Mon Khmer. But the linguist Maspero in 1912 and again in 1952 even suggested the Viets (and by extension, the Muongs) are not Mon-Khmer, but rather a branch of the Thai/Dai peoples, in itself a branch of the Sino-Tibetan family. Read this article:

http://www.vny2k.com/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese5.htm

That article have its flaws, it stated that korean was influence by chinese but did not gain tones is wrong, evident by its hangul-based writing system, korean once had tones. As for Japanese tones, around a good 30% percent is accented. Dai is no longer considered sino-tibetan.

I agree that we should clearly split myth and historical facts. Tridungvo 15:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Response to Leaki

Uhh, regardless of those elements you listed that are practiced amongst Vietnamese (betel nut chewing, lacquering of teeth), they’re not exclusive to Mon-Khmer speaking people but also practiced by Tai-Kadai (among others) people.

No matter where Vietnamese is classified language-wise, that does not necessarily prove that they’re close genetically to a specific group in that language family. Language and genetics are not the same thing - and I know now you’re gonna say that the only other possibility is that Vietnamese adopted Mon-Khmer language, but that’s not what I’m saying either! In any case, even though Vietnamese is language wise Mon-Khmer, it’s also obvious that Vietnamese shares 10 percent basic vocabulary with Tai-Kadai languages and similar grammar, not to mention pre-sinitic influenced Vietnamese also used stilt houses like Tai-Kadai people, among other examples. Vietnamese are most likely a mixture of mon-khmer and tai-kadai peoples, then you have to factor in the 1,000 year Chinese annexation/domination (in which massive immigration of Chinese is ruled out by scholars, but there is proof of some immigrations of Chinese throughout [read “The Birth of Vietnam” by Keith Taylor]). Even language and mixing aside, Vietnamese people know their history and origins and know for a fact that the cradle of Vietnamese civilization is based in North Vietnam. People are affected not just by genetics but also by environment, North Vietnam is strikingly different from many other areas in Southeast Asia in climate, with its four seasons and it actually gets cold! Making a claim for possibility of relation because of language at one point is ok, but you have to factor in a billion other factors as well.

By the way, an interesting tidbit=Japanese people - being a mix of yayoi and Jomon, also practice what is often deemed as indigenous southeast asian practices: including practice of animism and dyeing teeth black. Mojojojoinhawaii 04:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

__

I must say that although the Vietnamese resemble the southern Chinese in cultural traditions, habits, and finally in their physical typology, i find the Southern Chinese often even more southeast Asian then the Vietnamese themselves in several ways. This may be some kind of far-fetched speculation, but I suspect the Vietnamese (in least in some of their gene pools) have much more "northern" origins. Perhaps the Mongols or others had some affect centuries ago? My own family is of Vietnamese origin, and many of my relatives have a very Central Asian, Japanese, and even Turkic look, and so they look a bit different from most of their other brethren, not to mention other southeast Asians. Until several years ago, I always thought nothing of this, and thought myself quite an "average" Asian-Canadian, until my late teen years when other Asians always had no idea where I was from, not to mention non-Asians. I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides, but people always think I look Mongolian, Japanese or Turkic; and finally, recently I have met other people of Vietnamese origin who look just like myself, and not like the majority or Vietnamese around me. ie. some Vietnamese guys (esp. in my family) have much more facial or body hair than most others, yet are entirely Vietnamese).

is their any historical evidence or research of Vietnamese having Altaic or otherwise "non-native" (ie. to the south China-Indochina basin) origins in their gene pool? This might have drastically affected the actual origins of the Vietnamese people. Le Anh-Huy 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

In human genetics there is a term used called 'The Milkman Effect'. You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo. The same can be said of some Filipinos. Many Chinese from Macau have very obvious Portuguese traits for the same reason. 13 Sep 06.

You obviously do not know many Southern Chinese. Not even a typical Southern Chinese resemble a typical Vietnamese, although they are from the same geographic area. They are not typologically nor morphologically alike, and could be easily distinguished. Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.

Some Vietnamese customs that are more Southeast Asian than Chinese: fish sauce, betel chewing, teeth blackening, origin myths, fairy tales. The Fourth Chinese domination of Vietnam did much to Sinicize the country in 20 short years. DHN 08:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Quoted from Talk:Vietnamese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

a.) DHN responding to user:leaki, on the origin of the Vietnamese people: They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

b.) DHN responding to Le Anh-Huy's message of 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC), despite Le Anh-Huy clearly stating "I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides": ...You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo... 13 Sep 06.

c.) DHN's "scientific" claim of genetic make-up for Vietnamese of Chinese origin: Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.

Sirs,

Who is this DHN? I found his/her comments very disturbing. Bad English to start with (Cf. Quote a.) above). What rights to make such huge & offending statements on the world stage? They are far from accurate, to say the very least.

Yours sincerely, T.Vd./

DHN is the idiot who originally wrote this article. DHN 01:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I speculate that Vietnamese are mixture of the north (chinese) with the indigenous populations through out time, leaving much of the population looking somewhere on the spectrum of looking very east asian to looking very austronesasian. After all, there were many Chinese who moved down to Vietnam during the successive dynasties, who though were 100% Han in genetics identified with Vietnam as it was their home province, it might also make sense that chinese military men, stationed south without their women, found indigenous partners, leaving people of highly mixed sino-vietnamese stock. likewise, there are other probably those that live outside the cities, where the Hans used to congregate in ancient times, having less exposure to han genes also leaving us with those who look more "indigenous." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)

Should Hoa = Chinese? Gin people and Vietnamese should be separeated!

Yes, "Hoa" in Vietnamese language means not only the ethnic Chinese living in Vietnam, but also the ethnic Chinese living in other countries, for example in the USA, in France, in Thailand, in Malaysia, in Indonesia, in Cambodia, etc. Although less often, but this word is also used to refer to the Chinese living in China. Tryst Nguyen

Cosmonaut, not Astronaut!

Instead of Eugene Trinh, why not have a picture of Pham Tuan? At least, he was the first Vietnamese cosmonaut, as well as the first Asian in space. Some Vietnamese Americans are so unwilling to recognize any progress that goes on "back home", preferring to only focus on personal achievements of Vietnamese-Americans who, are primarily doing the United States of America a favour, not Vietnam. Besides, Pham Tuan looks better, and will give the "ethnic photos" better exposure to Viets. Le Anh-Huy 05:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to using these pics, but they keep getting deleted. I originally used Ho Chi Minh, the girl, Phan Van Khai, and Tran Duc Luong, based solely on how well-known they are (plus the girl for balance). I have serious doubts as to whether Eugene Trinh is really Vietnamese. I really don't care too much whether they bring "pride" or "shame" to the people they represent. (Being chosen by the Soviets to show off how much better their socialist system are compared to the capitalist system isn't much to be proud of either) DHN 06:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking happy, confident and cultured, not to mention beautiful and enviable (And no makeup, very genuine), the girl in her Ao Dai (Ow Yai), the cultural symbol of Vietnam: Most beautiful image of Vietnam.

Astronaut or Cosmonaut?: The 1st Asian in space was a Vietnamese citizen in space (not an American citizen). T.Vd./

Exactly! Le Anh-Huy 22:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

But, there are speculations that that cosmonaut did nothing but "ride along". :D I think it's safer to use Eugene Trinh. He is Vietnamese, definitely. (Yes, us overseas Vietnamese are being arrogant, but we have the right to, don't we?) 220.239.231.118 11:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

related to southern chinese

i changed 'possibly related to southern chinese' to related to southern chinese. genetics study have shown that the vietnamese kinh are indeed closely related to them. we are genetically closer to them than the other peoples of southeast asia such as the thais, though we are somewhat closely related to the people of laos. the computer dictionary microsoft bookshelf 2000, also states that we are related to the southern chinese.

Possibly? Anyway, this is off-topic, but Vietnamese is not Chinese, right? People I know keep on saying that the Vietnamese people were from China (geographically originating from a part of today's China, yes, but I mean CHINA as in CHINA), which is stupid, in my opinion. 220.239.231.118 11:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Also see: Yue (state), King Gou Jian of Yue

What is the reason for including "Yue (state)" and "King Gou Jian of Yue" under "Also see"? Both these "Yue" refer to what is now Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces in China and not are related to Vietnam. LDHan 11:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

This user has been pushing this hogwash in the Chinese and Vietnamese Wikipedias. According to him, the Vietnamese state was a successor to the State of Yue and "King Gou Jian of Yue" was their ancestor. He's been banned in the Vietnamese Wikipedia but keeps coming back. He keeps writing abusive messages in Chinese (which thankfully few in the Vietnamese Wikipedia can understand). DHN 15:28, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh I see, thanks. LDHan 16:37, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Photo

What's this? Ho Chi Minh got removed whereas some strange guy with American flag on one arm and another in the background is put on as an example of a Vietnamese? This is serious POV, especially when this is an article about Vietnamese in general, not Vietnamese American. I will remove it if no one can give me a satisfying explanation.Hawkie 14:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Have to agree with you. LDHan 14:47, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I have removed it for its disgusting impression, and I'm thinking of some other image to fill in its place. There're still many Vietnamese great names which are also well-known outside Vietnam. Or maybe we can find an image of male Vietnamese since I can see an image of female Vietnamese in traditional dress already.Hawkie 15:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are there so many Chinese references in this article?

First, there is no need to go into detail about Vietnamese people in specific a country, China in this case. There is no discussion of Vietnamese people in Thailand or South Korea and what they are labeled there because it is not needed. The Diaspora section covers all that is needed about Vietnamese people living abroad. Besides there are other Wikipedia articles that discuss Vietnamese people living outside of Vietnam or in a specific country (Vietnamese Canadians, Vietnamese Australians, etc). Remember this article is about the Kinh ethnic group not about Vietnamese living abroad.

Second, why are so many translations of Vietnamese words to their Mandarin equivalent? Remember this is a Vietnamese article not a Chinese one. Do you see Vietnamese translations of Chinese names and places in Chinese articles? The answer is no because Vietnamese translations are unnecessary in Chinese articles just like Chinese translations in Vietnamese ones.

I believe this article should be edited to omit all the Chinese references, which are unnecessary to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 (talk) 15:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

If nobody responses in a week I will go ahead make the edits myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 (talk) 15:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, had you actually checked and been able to read Chinese, you would know that many Chinese pages about anything Vietnamese will also feature Vietnamese pronunciations and spellings, apart from Putonghua spellings. Le Anh-Huy 05:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese was originally written in Chinese, so the Chinese characters are appropriate for historical terms. DHN 15:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Vietnamese may have been originally written in Chinese, but it is not really pervalent in today's time. Hardly any Vietnameses are taught to read or write in Chinese script so it is pretty much useless if they can't understand it.

So is it okay to delete this passage? "In the People's Republic of China, they are among the recognized minority groups based especially in or around Guangxi Province and are known in Mandarin Chinese through their derivative name Jing/Gin (京) or "Jingzu"/"Ginzu" (京族)." As I have stated this article should concentrate about the Kinh ethnic group. There is no need to go to mention what Vietnamese are labeled outside of their country. There is no metion of what Vietnamese are called in other countries like Laos or Thailand because it is unnecessary just like this passage. It more appropriate in the "Vietnamese people in China" article.

I don't see a reason to delete it. It appropriately shows that there are Vietnamese people outside of Vietnam. In Laos or Thailand I'm not sure if they're an officially recognized ethnic group, but they are in China. The same thing about the Chinese characters can be said of the Vietnamese text in this article, since English speakers (the primary audience of this article) won't be able to read it either. DHN 15:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a specific reason only the Jing (ethnic Vietnamese in China) are mentioned in this article as opposed to ethnic Vietnamese enclaves elsewhere. I think the article makes reference specifically to the Vietnamese who have been living in the southern areas of China for centuries, therefore they are a not only an established but historical ethnic group in those southernmost regions of China. If you look at Vietnamese origin theories, one states that Vietnamese originate mainly from Northern Vietnam but also partially from Southern China - one common misconception is that the current Jing (ethnic Vietnamese) living in some southernmost areas of China are indigenous when they are NOT - they just immigrated to those areas centuries ago, however it is notable because some majorly accepted theories are that one of the places of origin of Vietnamese people are in certain southernmost parts of China and that there is a group of Vietnamese living there now (the Jing who migrated there centuries ago).165.196.104.76 19:06, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe there is a reason to delete the disputed passage, as I mentioned earlier it is not appropriate as this is a Vietnamese ethnic article not Vietnamese in China article. It starts out about discussing about Kinh then all of a sudden it talks about what Vietnamese people are called in China . . . why? How does that make scene? And Vietnamese people are a recognized ethnic group in Thailand, Germany, Norway, etc. but it is not mentioned here because it is not needed, same with China. And if it does get mentioned it should be brief in the diaspora section or in another Wikipedia article.

“The same thing about the Chinese characters can be said of the Vietnamese text in this article, since English speakers (the primary audience of this article) won't be able to read it either. DHN 15:56, 1 November 2007 (UTC)” -- As I stated earlier, this article is a Vietnamese article in an English language site so Vietnamese script is necessary while the Mandarin script are out of place and unnecessary. By using your argument, it be okay to use Vietnamese script in a Chinese article since the English speaking audience is unable to understand it just like the Chinese script.

It would have been appropriate if the Chinese language was written with Vietnamese script sometime in the past. DHN 16:29, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

And yet Chinese script is no longer taught to Vietnamese in today's time, making the Chinese script pretty much useless. Since you argue that Chinese script should remain becasue it was used in the past, than would it be right to start using Chinese script in Korean and Japanese articles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 (talk) 16:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yet again, an erroneous assumption. Had you even been able to read Chinese text, you would know that many Korean and Japanese pages do give original Chinese text as a source of context for certain topics or words. Please refrain from discussion if you do not even know what you are talking about...and have the decency to sign in if you think you are up to editing. I propose that this page should bar those who do not sign in from "editing". Le Anh-Huy 05:38, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I finally gotten a username, I am the same person who started this discussion. All right if nobody responses by November 14, 2007 I'm going to edit the page. I thoroughly proven my point on this subject matter and if you want to make your own edits you have to discuss it first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WanderDuck (talk • contribs) 17:23, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be a better idea to relegate the discussion of the Vietnamese in China to the body instead of mentioning it in the head or removing it altogether. DHN 17:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think its should be removed, as Tryst Nguyen pointed out earlier in his own discussion to whom nobody replied, the Chinese in Vietnam are called Hoa and there has been Hoa communities for centuries in Vietnam. Its not stated in the Han article because that deals with the Han ethnic group not Hans living aboard.- Wanderduck

This article should be expanded

Other subselections this article should include is culture, food, attire, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.22.23 (talk) 15:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to make those additions. DHN 20:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)