Talk:September 11 attacks

remove this page

this article does not belong on wikipedia. it should be replaced with the most bare-boned version possible; only stating the most obvious facts (times, dates, locations) in no more than 3 paragraphs. in its present state it's disgraceful to wikipedia's users. it is highly politicized in ways that make me question much of what i've read in wikipedia's current events. it doesn't come close to the exactitude and competence of wikipedia's science related articles or the robust research in the historical articles. it is cowardly and reeks of personality. --chordophone 12:01 1/4/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chordophone (talk • contribs) 18:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Not gonna happen. Now that we're past that, any specific complaints or suggestions? --Golbez (talk) 18:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

outside of what i personally find so offensive about it, it is way too long for an encyclopedic entry. it needs to be shortened by over half. considering the amount of sources that come from CNN or the 9-11 Commission publication, wikipedia should simply list them as external links. the shorter this entry the less personal and political the focus is, and the less chance conspiracy-obsessed idiots and over-simplifying editors can stain this great encyclopedia. the goal should be brief and concise descriptions that only include enough information to guide further research. this page is like a book written by people who don't investigate further than television. and has anyone stopped to wonder if the 9-11 commission's report doesn't constitute the most objective source? it's been reported on in every major news source in the world that the report is heavily edited. and isn't it strange that the government's only major publication in bookstores in America is this one book? they can't publish a guide to taxes and charge 9.95 for it? what about a guide explaining the various electable positions in government? i've looked, they're certainly not on display at border's. it seems dubious that any academic take that book as gospel. if anything, in the true spirit of wikipedia, George Washington University's National Security Archives should be the main cited source of information about this historically incredible event. let's not make wikipedia a compendium of television news history. i'm not trying to be offensive, or attack anyone personally, i just think that this kind of article on something this important is pretty sad. ----chordophone 7:45 1/4/08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chordophone (talk • contribs) 01:44-01:47, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is well within size guidelines for articles on subjects of this importance. In addition, CNN is a reliable source. If you have issues with our reliable sourcing guidelines, take it up on the respective talk page. If you disagree with certain sources, bring up concrete reasons why on this page, rather than general platitudes. This page is not a soapbox — please focus on specific editorial issues. --Haemo (talk) 03:56, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

see 9/11 conspiracy theories for "concrete reasons why." this article should either be edited, removed or merged with 9/11 conspiracy theories. this page IS ALREADY a conspiracy theory. a conspiracy theory is any theory of people coming together and CONSPIRING to act outside certain guidelines. I have tried again and again to edit this page and have become very offended. I SUGGESTED this page be merged with 9/11 conspiracy theories and my SUGGESTION was very quickly removed. UNLESS this is discussed more thoroughly, SEE WIKIPEDIA GUIDELINES about SUGGESTIONS TO MERGE before REMOVING from TAGLINE. --Crass_conversationalist (talk) 11:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.235.98.232 (talk) 17:52, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

No. The theories discussed in 9/11 conspiracy theories are fringe theories which are widely unsupported in reliable sources — that page was forked off this one, and the summary section currently gives it the correct amount of weight that it deserves. You have tried again, and again, to push a fringe POV on this issue, and have been summarily reverted for good reason. Unless you have some concrete suggestions which do not violate fundamental guidelines, please refrain from using this page as a soapbox. --Haemo (talk) 03:42, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Haemo, please stop using this page as a soapbox. Some of the theories discussed in 9/11 conspiracy theories are very widely held. Wowest (talk) 22:27, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I am not using this page as a soapbox, and I resent your implication that I am. Some general statements about intentions are widely held — there has never been any poll demonstrating that any specific theory is anything other than fringe. Correctly stating the extent to which theories are held is not "soapboxing" in the slightest. --Haemo (talk) 22:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Assumtions are unethical and a disgrace to acedemics which use wikipedia

There are way to many assumptions and broad sweeping statements in this page and I want to highlight one of them.

I do not want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, I just want to be factual and academic so listen me out.

This passage "On that morning nineteen terrorists[2] affiliated with al-Qaeda[3] " in the opening section of the article insinuates that we know for a fact with substantiated proof that Al Qeada was responsible for the attacks when in fact alot of evidence to the contrary exists. It claims 19 Terrorists took part in these attacks when it is widely known that 5 of these named hi-jackers have been in later years to be alive and well. None of their names were on the flight lists as passengers and no proof exists that they were on board at all. I also am irked with the assumtion of guilt of Al Qaeda at all in 9/11 when no proof exists that they were involved at all. There has been no court case to prove that Al Qaeda was involved and the confession videos of Bin Laden have widely been under suspicion for its authenticity. It is unacedemic of us to ignore these facts merely on the basis of serving some larger political goal. I myself am disgusted as an academic and user of Wikipedia to be subjected to the unacedemic and largely political propaganda nature of this particular article.

There has been no court case to prove the guilt of Al Qaeda so please do not add this to the wikipedia page. Thank You —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trek mambo (talk • contribs) 22:03, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not true that "5 of the hijackers" are well known to be alive. Multiple reliable sources both asset, and support, the claim that Al Qaeda was responsible for the attacks, and that the terrorists, in particular were also responsible. No reliable sources support your interpretation of the events, and unless you have some specific editorial concerns, I would ask that you refrain from using this talk page to discuss the event in general. --Haemo (talk) 22:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Al Qeada has not been conclusively proven guilty in any court of law and an endless amount of very substantiated proof exists to prove the opposite. This topic is thus under dispute. Unless you can point us towards court documents, the name of the judge, the time of the verdict, the jury involved, the facts presented by both sides, the lawyers involved, the court transcripts and more that this organization is guilty of 9/11 then it is incorrect to post such a lie as fact. Please remove those rash assumptions from the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trek mambo (talk • contribs) 22:44, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

A dispute between whom? People who know that Al-Qaeda was responsible and people who refuse to believe mountains and mountains of facts? Please do not use Wikipedia as a soapbox to profess your political beliefs. Thank you. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 22:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The issue of a court of law is immaterial; many historical figures responsible for crimes were never tried in court. This is not the standard of evidence Wikipedia, nay, any academic publication requires. If you believe there is evidence vindicating them, then provide reliable sources presenting it as vindication. Otherwise, there is nothing here to act on. --Haemo (talk) 22:54, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I would implore you to not use Wikipedia as a soapbox aswell. It seems to me by allowing unsubstantiated claims that Al Qeada has conclusively been proven to be the sole perpetrators of 9/11 you are furthering your own political convictions. I am here only in the interest of being truthful and being academic. As long as Al Qeada has not been proven guilty in a court of law it should not be part of this article. Insinuating that academic publications do not require someone to be proven guilty in a court of law before reporting so is within it self a lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trek mambo (talk • contribs) 23:05, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

This is an absurd standard, totally at odds with our criteria and academia in general. I am not using Wikipedia as a soapbox in the slightest — all statements in edits I make follow our guidelines and policies, and it is totally incivil of you to claim I am trying to further my "political convictions" in some way. There is no requirement that claims made by an article be verified in a court of law before inclusion — either on Wikipedia, or in academia in general. If you grab a copy of the Encyclopedia Brittanica, you can see they lay responsibility with Al Qaeda too. The claims made in this article are not "unsubstantiated" — they are all directly sourced to reliable sources. --Haemo (talk) 23:09, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The Encyclopedia Brittanica and its content has no relevance here. Here we are not only referring to the academic nature but also the truthful nature of this article. We should thus agree as we are both assuredly interested in the factual and academic integrity of this article for future use, that we cannot for a second lay guilt where it has not been proven in a court of law. For you to insinuate that it is normal practice of academic institutions to make false unsubstantiated claims and to pass opinion off as fact is an insult not only to me but the entire academic community. For the sake of maintaining the accuracy and truthfulness of this article, if you refuse to change that leading passage, please highlight in the article that the guilt of AL Qeada in 9/11 is under dispute until it has been made official that they are in fact guilty by a judge. "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" states my constitution, and for us to keep the article as is is not only a moral and academic offense but also a constitutional one. I cannot think of in any other academic publication which assumes guilt of a party without there having been a court ruling, please point me towards an article/publication where this has happened. I implore you to try to understand this simple principle, as we both merely want to see the academic integrity of this article maintained. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trek mambo (talk • contribs) 23:25, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Which constitution says "innocent until proven guilty"? Not the US's. And besides, this isn't a court. Corvus cornix_talk 23:31, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I would like you to refer you to this article if you do not understand this simple principle which is also called Presumption of Innocence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trek mambo (talk • contribs) 23:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

a legal right that the accused in criminal trials has in many modern nations - this is not a criminal trial. Corvus cornix_talk 23:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

No, This is an Encyclopedia a publication which is taken seriously because of its academic and factual nature. Here this article is neither. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trek mambo (talk • contribs) 23:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

We will not allow you to add any conspiracist nonsense to this article. It would be best if you would stop wasting our time. Thanks. Ice Cold Beer (talk) 23:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

It is incivil of you to insinuate that I am propagating conspiracy theories when in fact I have not done so in any way shape or form. I am merely trying to be academic and I would wish that this article reflect an academic and truthful prospective of the events of 9/11 and it is very within the Wikipedia guidelines and policies for me to expect this. It would be of catastrophic result if this is the way in which we will approach this problem. I demand you change this article or warn users that the topic at hand is in dispute and although claimed by official entities not proven in a court of law. As simple as that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Trek mambo (talk • contribs) 00:07, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Care and feeding. Corvus cornix_talk 00:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You're not going to make any headway with this tact of arguing, since Wikipedia does not require the standards you have argued. Academic publications, indeed many on Al Qaeda, can and do lay statements of guilt without proof in a court of law. Wikipedia does not require this standard of evidence. If you disagree with our guidelines, you can discuss it on the relevant page; not here. --Haemo (talk) 00:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

As final input from me on this article, I have consulted the Policies and Guidelines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Policies_and_guidelines) section and was lead to believe that within the NPOV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view) it deals with this type of issue. This article considering that Al Qeada has not been officially proven guilty in a court of law is thus in violation on many of the points brought up in the Wikipedia NPOV. I leave the problem in the hands of the editors.

Question

why cant we edited 9/11 page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 070793power (talk • contribs) 04:42, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It's semiprotected due to persistent vandalism. --Haemo (talk) 05:17, 11 January 2008 (UTC)