Talk:Camille Saint-Saëns

Hyphen

Shouldn't there be a hyphen in the article title here (ie, Camille Saint-Saens). His name is certainly always spelled that way. I'd change it myself, but I don't know if there's a policy about not having hyphens in article titles for some reason (and what about accents as well; "Camille Saint-Saëns"). --Camembert

Hyphens are fine (they weren't on the old system). We can have accents, but there's an ongoing debate over how a page title with an accent affects that article's Googleability (see the policy pages). It's not a convention that's universally followed, and I've not been keeping up with the debate. In brief: either have Camille Saint-Saens -> redirect to Camille Saint-Saëns, or the other way round. -- Tarquin

Well, I can't see anything about accents in article titles in the policy pages (I may be missing something), and I've never seen his name spelt without the accent, so I've moved it here. If it seriously affects Google, somebody can switch it back, btu if that's done we'll have a mis-spelled article title, which is worse than missing a few hits from Google, in my opinion. --Camembert

Yes there is a policy on this issue and it is in wikipedia:naming conventions. "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is almost always used in English." Native transliteration includes the use of accents. In this case Google finds 10k hits with the ë spelling and 17k with the e spelling (looking only at English language sites yields 5k for the ë spelling and 10k for the e spelling). I would go with the dominant spelling (most people don't know how to create an ë with out having to copy the character and therefore will not be able to link to this article easily). At the very least Camille Saint-Saens should redirect here (which it does). --mav

Apologies, I thought that the transliteration guidelines applied only when we were moving from a completely different alphabet (Cyrillic, Greek, Urdu, whatever) - as French uses the same alphabet as English, I didn't think of it as transliteration at all. In fact, I hadn't given the whole matter a great deal of thought because for some reason I was thinking that Google ignored accents altogether. I suppose that if the spelling without the accent is more common (as it seems to be), the article should be there, but I'm convinced this spelling is the "right" one (in that it's the one used by CS-S himself and by English paper encyclopaedias, dictionaries, etc), and with the redirect from the more common spelling, there's no major problem is there? Anyway, do what you think is best.

Enough of this - I hate articles where the talk page is longer than the main entry... --Camembert

The hyphen is entirely a French-language thing, similar to spelling names like "McDonald" with a small-c followed by a capital, and is absolutely necessary. On a related note, I'm also of the opinion that the ë is just as necessary, since (1) it affects the pronunciation of the name; (2) it is not transliterated or translated; and (3) that's simply how it's spelled (perhaps English unilinguists won't understand the point). In any event, people can easily reach this page without having to type the accent. Furthermore, similar articles maintain the proper accents in their titles, such as those on Fauré and Dvořák. --Todeswalzer|Talk 01:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Confidence of the European man

The Maestoso of the second movement is clearly an expression of the confidence of the European man in himself, in his technology, his science, his "age of reason".

Is this a POV (some sort of music criticism) or can it be supported by facts (such as text of Saint-Saëns's correspondence)? Del arte 20:24, 19 May 2004 (UTC)

---

this work in particular is inserted in the hearth of the sense of "gigantism" of the dying XIX century, it is clearly enmarked alongside with the trend of the Eiffel Tower, the Universal Exposition at Paris and the beginning of the "belle epoque".

Was this passage machine translated? I can't make much sense of it at all. Would someone who knows what this is meant to say kindly have a stab at fixing it? Graham 04:04, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Best Pianist After Liszt?

It is shoddy scholarship to objectively state that Saint-Saëns "was unequalled on organ" based on Liszt's remarks, and it is even worse to assert that Saint-Saëns' pianism was "rivaled only by Liszt". The latter statement is especially unfair to virtuosi of the day including Dreyschock, Anton Rubinstein, Henselt, and Alkan.

The following has been removed from the article:

Saint-Saëns' compositional style:

In performance, Saint-Saëns was unequalled on the organ and rivaled only by Liszt on the piano—Liszt himself thought that they were the two best pianists in Europe. However, Saint-Saëns' concert style was subtle and cool; he sat unmoving at the piano.

--Wikipedia User 04:06, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough. The paragraph seems to have reappeared, however, so I'll qualify and expand on it. --Mordant21 22:31, 7 June 2005 (UTC)

The original paragraph was obviously POVed, but if it is in fact true that Liszt thought of Saint-Saëns and himself as the best pianists in Europe, that certainly deserves to be mentioned. — Pladask 11:41, Jun 8, 2005 (UTC)

Liszt said in 1866 that he thought Bizet was the best organist in Europe, not pianist - by Liszts observation the best 3 pianists in Europe in his lifetime were himself, Alkan and Bizet. --MaxW

What is the scholarly basis for the assertion by CSS, that he was a pederast, presented in the article?

I don't think it is that important to be talking about this. We don't even know if Liszt was such a great pianist. I have never heard him. I think that he could have been a great pianist, but it is just a likley that he wasn't. Let me just say that from Liszt's music it would be hard for me to believe that he was very musical (except for his sonata) and that there is no way we will know who the great pianists were back then.

I don't know who posted the above paragaph, but I found the comments to be pedantic and ignorant to the highest degree. I suppose that if no one alive has ever heard Liszt play, then we should entirely disregard the thousands of concurring written accounts which exist, that reiterate the most amazing performances ever heard. At least, that's what the person above seems to think. Also, I don't know who you are to think that you can judge the musical quality of Franz Liszt.Only someone with no real musical training and only a limited music history knowledgebase would say that at all. Saying that only his Sonata was musical is completely absurd. His Rhapsodies may not have had the illustration and poetry of the Chopin etudes, but they were certainly just as developed in the way of technique. ( he was ,in fact, the dedicatee of the etudes). If whoever posted the comment above needs any more assurance that they are WRONG, look up Don Juan fantasy somewhere and listen, to see if you can honestly deny that as excellent music.( also I would love to hear why it is "likely" that he was not a great pianist)

Agreed 100%. As I've noticed on many online forums, it has become trendy to speak lowly of Franz Liszt in general. (of course this trend was started by Brahms and Schumann, not to slight their work at all, but regretably their pretensions have found their way into modern music criticism) I don't care if he was a good pianist or not, (though if his compositions mean anything, I don't think many people other than someone who was an amazing pianist would compose the way he did, any music score or midi indicates this without much dispute) but the more I hear his work, I realize that he was an incredible composer... Again this is subjective, but I can't believe how much his work is slighted these days.

That said, I would be all the more amazed if he were not an exceptional piano player, and if all of the accounts of his playing, even by his rivals, were not true.

Jewish Heritage

I have read from some sources that Saint-Saëns' mother was Jewish. Can anyone confirm this for me? If so, then I think we should add him to the "Jewish classical musicians" category. Batman Jr. 23:08, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

It seems to me that the "Reputation" and "Style" sections go a little far in attacking Saint-Saëns.

"He had been the embodiment of artistic modernity during the 1850s and 1860s, but soon transformed himself into a crusty and somewhat bitter reactionary."

"As a composer, Saint-Saëns has always bordered on the edge of obscurity, often criticized for his refusal to embrace romanticism and at the same time, rather paradoxically, for his adherence to the conventions of 19th century musical language. He is sometimes disparagingly referred to as "the greatest second-rate composer who ever lived" and 'the greatest composer who was not a genius.'"

"Saint-Saëns the composer was widely regarded by his contemporaries and some later critics as writing music that is elegant and technically flawless, but occasionally dry and uninspired."

"The piano music, while not as deep or as challenging as that of some of his contemporaries, forms the stylistic connection between Liszt and Ravel."

These are all very subjective and I'm not sure if they're totally accurate. I'm adding an NPOV tag, so if anyone wants to discuss it, I'm all ears!

Romain Rolland, a prominent French writer of fiction ("Jean Christophe") and artistic criticism, wrote a book of musical criticism ("Musiciens d'aujourd'hui"), published in 1908, with a chapter on Saint-Saens, where he made many comments about Saint-Saens's classicism, "untouched by passion," etc. The discussion there supports the statement that "the composer was widely regarded by his contemporaries and some later critics as writing music that is elegant and technically flawless, but occasionally dry and uninspired." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.193.56 (talk) 06:34, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Smedley Hirkum 08:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed; pretty biased. On the other hand, some say he was responsible for saving classical music in France. Navins 03:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this goes too far. Every great composer has recieved tons of negative criticism, it is unneccessary to go around trumpeting it unless it is raised on strong grounds. Also, the article states that Saint-Saëns is only rememberd for his organ symphony, 2nd and 4th concerto, the opera Samson et Dalia and The Carnival of the Animals (this list is already too long for the word 'only' to apply), but this list is way too short! What about Danse Macabre and his cello concerto? He is also remembered for his chamber music, the oboe and bassoon sonatas are a great and importnant retribution to the repertoire of these instruments. --Satúrnus 12:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's be serious here. They aren't attacking Saint-Saens, but merely saying he is not a great composer. He is a good composer, but he really only survied becasue of his Carnival of the Animals and 3rd Symphony.

Let's be serious. The role of wikipedia is not to label artists as "good" or "great." An encyclopedia ought to be objective. If you care to cite your sources and quote a critic who says, "Saint-Saëns is not a great composer. He is a good composer," feel free. But wikipedia is not a personal soapbox for you, I, or anyone else to express our personal opinions on the subjective quality of musicians. 66.17.105.226 13:23, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

"Let's be serious here. They aren't attacking Saint-Saens, but merely saying he is not a great composer. He is a good composer, but he really only survied becasue of his Carnival of the Animals and 3rd Symphony."

That was quite honestly one of the most disgusting things that can be said; and said by someone that obviously knows nothing of music history. ("Le Carnival des Animaux," for example, was only performed after his death.) Pie87 July 12th, 2006

...And OBVIOUSLY Saint-Saens' Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso and his 3rd violin concerto didn't help him survive, right, Master IDon'tKnowAnythingAboutViolinMusic? Your knowledge, or lack thereof, astounds me.TheFlyingSquirrel 17:25, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

... Yes and the second piano concerto, who was loved by Liszt, probably the most popular, and without a doubt the most fanatically loved musician of the 19th century, did surely not help his reputation a bit? Saint-Saëns's flawless oboe and bassoon sonatas, atributed to the way too small repertoire for these instruments probably made all oboists and bassoonists hate him or what? --194.144.188.193 12:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The "crusty and somewhat better reactionary" line is definitely NPOV. I don't think there's anything wrong with the second line, while I don't necessarily agree with it, it's a fact that he's been often crticized in these terms. The last line seems borderline. DSZ

I've had a go at removing some of the subjective comments. I've also moved the npov tag so there's one on each section mentioned above, not one at the top of the whole article. I think it was Debussy who said Saint-Saens was "the greatest composer who wasn't a genius", but I can't find a citation. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I at least found somebody giving Thomas Beecham as the source of the second-rate quote, although it seems that it may have been more along the lines of "some of his music is second-rate" than "he's entirely a second-rate composer". Unfortunately, I don't know the actual citation at this point. If Debussy is the one who made the comment about him not being a genius, it should at least be made clear that the quote says more about their rivalry than about Saint-Saens' talent. I also dropped the parts about bordering on obscurity and the "limited" number of works that make up his legacy—the first comment is fairly ridiculous, and given how many works are listed "limited" is hardly the right adjective. --Michael Snow 04:47, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What should "reputation" include _besides_ subjective comments? What is nessesary is that we know whose judgment we're dealing with, and quotes would be helpful.. All I have close at hand is Ravel (Shapiro's Encyclopedia of Quotations About Music): "I'm told that Saint-Saëns has informed a delighted public that since the war began he has composed music for the stage, melodies, an elegy and a piece for trombone. If he'd been making shell-cases instead it might have been all the better for music." Letter to Jean Marnold, Oct. 7 1916 I take this as an ironic comment on S-S's nationalistic polemics rather than a dismissal of the music... Sparafucil 00:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Homosexuality

There has been some removal of information about Saint-Saens sexuality. I had reverted this while on the trail of a vandal (mistaking IP addresses). I have now reverted myself, so that the information is missing once again. If it can be sourced, it should be replaced, if not, not. Regards, Rich Farmbrough 15:29 7 April 2006 (UTC).

Here is the previous information, with source:

It has been suggested that Saint-Saëns was involved in homosexual relationships later in life, though evidence of this is largely circumstantial; his homosexuality is, however, often taken for granted. Nonetheless, a recent biographer, Stephen Studd, continues to claim him as a heterosexual. Saint-Saëns's interests seem to have gravitated toward younger lovers: on being accused of homosexuality at a social occasion, he is reported to have countered "Je ne suis pas homosexuel, je suis pédéraste!" [1]

If no one has any issues with this, then I think it would be appropriate to reinsert it into the article. AscendedAnathema 07:03, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

This quote is silly. During his time, no one would have said "I'm a chid molester" in seriousness. His sexuality seems to be not a notable feature in a brief biography. Ghosts&empties 01:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

A pederast is not necessarily a child molester. It seems like he was instead saying "I am not a homosexual. Sure, I have relations with young girls, but I am not a homosexual." edit: I'm remembering something completely different. Ignore this. A pederast seems to be a homosexual? Also, many, many composers were homosexuals, so it may be notable in that way. --Stwong

It may be silly but it is well known, and also present on the French Wikipedia and several websites and at least one book, Lariviere's "Homosexuels et bisexuels celebres". Haiduc 02:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Referring to oneself as a pederast at that time would invoke the classic Greek ideas of the purity of love between an older man and a young one. --Kstern999 23:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems pointless to forego discussion of this aspect of the composer's life. Any objections restoring the text to the article, with these minor modifications?

It has been suggested that Saint-Saëns was involved in homosexual relationships later in life. Though evidence of this is largely circumstantial, his homosexuality is often taken for granted. Nonetheless, a recent biographer, Stephen Studd, continues to claim him as a heterosexual. Saint-Saëns's interests seem to have gravitated toward younger lovers: on being accused of homosexuality at a social occasion, he is reported to have countered "Je ne suis pas homosexuel, je suis pédéraste!" [2] Haiduc 04:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, this relates to a common misconception. Adults who are sexually interested in children (however one defines that term) are neither homosexuals nor heterosexuals, but paedophiles or pederasts. Homosexuality and heterosexuality both refer to sexual relations between adults. If CSS's interests were solely with young boys, that still does not make him a homosexual. If his interests were solely with young girls, that still does not make him a heterosexual. If he acknowledged being a pederast, that should not be morphed into a claim of homosexuality. But if there's any actual evidence of his homosexuality, that's a different story and we'd be within our rights to present that. JackofOz 05:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What is that adage about battling one misconception with another? Pederasty is considered to be one of the three principal categories of homosexuality (termed "age-structured homosexuality"), the most popular of the three - if history could vote. Nor has it necessarily anything to do with children - just ask Oscar Wilde. Or Donald Friend. Since everybody else discusses his homosexuality - pederastic or not, whatever his sojourn in Algiers may have been, why should we pass over it in silence??? Haiduc 10:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

"Pederasty the most popular form of homosexuality"?! Although you may be refering to the Classical meaning of "pederasty", which may be relevant to the case of Saint-Saëns, most people these days think it simply refers to child molestation. Please choose your words more carefully. - Eyeresist 03:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. If today somebody says "I'm a homosexual", it refers specifically to a relationship between adults, not in an interest in little boys or girls. However, it does encompass everything from relationships between two 18-year-olds or 60-year-olds to a relationship between an 18-year-old and a 60-year old as they are both considered adults (at least by Finnish law, where I live - although somebody might, perhaps jokingly, refer to them as pederasts). If Saint-Saens meant he liked underage boys or teenagers, pederast would be the right definition...

I recommend that we just put a section called Sexuality in the article, with his quote about pederastry, if we indeed have a source for it.--83.145.240.253 12:13, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Misconceptions of the title "Virtuoso" in some of the Discussion/Anon

Saint-saens may have been a talented pianist, prodigious sight-reader, and profound technician, but he certainly did not deserve the title "virtuoso". In fact, he himself admitted he was no virtuoso or even strived to be one.(see Harold C. Schoenberg's book: "The Pianists")

The nonsense about Saint-Saens being commended as the second greatest pianist must be cleared up. Liszt specifically said that he, Von Bulow, and Bizet were the best pianists of the day.(see Harold C. Shoenberg's book: "The pianists") Also, Henselt and Alkan were shy and reclusive, too scared to perform in public, therefore could not seriously be called virtuoso material. Lastly, Dreyschock was considered a virtuoso by many but his career was so short and his pianistic feats so shallow, that any informed person could not possibly put him in the same rank as Liszt. Dreyschock was known only for his ability to play the melody of Chopin's "revolutionary" etude in octaves at the indicated tempo. It took him a great deal of practice to achieve this whereas Liszt copied the feat with no practice at all during a live performance of chopin's F minor etude.

When posting comments on a discussion please make sure you are correctly informed as to the reality of any assertations or speculations you may have, so more erroneous rumors do not germinate.

Date of birth

This article says 3 October but Grove (opera) and Oxford both give 9 October so I am correcting this. --Kleinzach 13:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)