Talk:Hugo Chávez

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Trotskyist?

While Hugo Chavez may have said that he is a trotskyist, his actions and policies don't really resemble trotskyism at all. I think he was probably just using it as another word for Socialism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spongesquid (talk • contribs) 22:16, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

This sentence is based on an opinion article

This sentence is based on an opinion article and therefore cannot be presented as a statement of fact:

Only after polls showed that 60% of Venezuelans opposed the measure did Chavez add incentives such as reducing the workday from eight to six hours and lowering the voting age from 18 to 16.

[1] JRSP 00:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, opinion articles are not necessarily off-limits for factual statements. This article is by a professor of Latin American studies and appeared in a respected journal, so it does have some weight behind it. I can understand the objection, but to say it black-and-white cannot be presented as factual is a bit much. <eleland/talkedits> 00:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Being a controversial statement, it would need to be attributed to Shifter, and possibly balanced with another opinion. JRSP 00:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Chavez is the current PRESIDENT of Venezuela!!!

This caudillo crap is beyond shameless.... Chavez is the democratically elected president of Venezuela, the very first sentence of this article shows the article's bias...

Another Economist/CIA backed edit no doubt. --24.150.77.3 (talk) 18:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Chill out, it was simple vandalism and has been reverted. Much more likely to have been a bored kid than a CIA officer. In future you can fix it yourself, rather than declaring your outrage on the article talk page. <eleland/talkedits> 18:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with both Eleland's popinbts. were the CIA or any opposition group to try to influence the article there are many ways they could do so (as a project we are vulnerable to POV pushers of any ilk) but a silly piece of vandlaism is not one of them. Thanks, SqueakBox 18:44, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Well there were several news stories about FBI and CIA systematically editing Wikipedia, and seeing as how this article features so many Economist sources, and we all know what that journal advocates, I assumed this was the approved edit. I'd rather post my outrage here than just edit eithout approval. --24.150.77.3 (talk) 21:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree change it to dictator he is subverting the rights of the ooppsition and stole the last election.65.96.135.42 (talk) 20:20, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Unless multiple reliable sources say that, Wikipedia can't call it that way. Our opinions as editors don't count, this is not a blog. JRSP (talk) 22:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Find evidence of a stolen election if you want to make an accusation of that. I saw a landslide in his favor. Also, the opposition dropped out, he did nothing impacting their foolish decision. Claiming that he cheated because he has no opposition is like fighting the fur industry by buying a massive ammount of furs, and then shouting at them for killing more animals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.189.133.20 (talk) 03:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Trotskysm

Just a note, I would make a change if I could, I think someone here should take care of it.

Personally, I don´t think the declaration "I am a trotskyst" is good enough as to be qualified as a valid reference when Chavez is described as a troskyst properly.

Also, I dont see any special influence of Trotsky in Chavez´s work.

I think, the sentence should be changed from "He is also a trotskyst" to "He is a self-declared trotskyst".-------sabin

Well how much more can he do other than claim to be a Trot, I mean what would you accept as evidence in his actions that he is a Trot? If this is you're logic then every politician in the world really could be called a 'self-declared conservative' or a 'self-declared socialist' because anyone can call into question their beliefs and their application as a leader. Chavez's action are actually alot like Trotskyism, unlike other socialist ideologies Chavez did not think straight after he came to power that the revolution was over, he thinks of it as an ongoing struggle to strength the revolution and build socialism practically in this modern century. 21st Century Socialism and Bolivarianism is also alot like Trotskyism because it rejects the bureaucratic apparatus of the state as the driving force and instead holds a socialism 'from the ground up' grassroots populism to be the way to socialism. Chavez has clearly proven this with his local cooperatives and communes which have free health facilities and cheap food outlets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.187.225.104 (talk) 08:14, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

What would be enough? A reference to a socialism specialized third party that states so.

I could claim to be Superman, but that doesnt make me that guy. Nazi means "national socialist" and them claiming to be socialists don´t turn them automatically into so.

The difference here is that most "conservatives" or "socialists" dont claim to be anything, just do their works and thats all. Also, lot of people could relate Chavez´s bureaucritic policies and control over the justice system more to those of Stalin or Fidel Castro.

Therefore, Wikipedia being an accurate information provider, is required to take a "I am also a trostkyst" as it is, a declaration from Chavez himself.

Im not saying he is not a Trotskyst, and that is not what I´m discussing. But there is no valid reference, and without any more deep source, Wikipedia should leave it open for the reader to decide it.------ sabin

Stalin or Fidel Castro? Since when did Stalin or Fidel Castro permit a media to be in existence that actively supported coups and attempts on the leaders life? In most western countries this is not allowed, it is strange in such an autocracy that Hugo Chavez permits (grudingly, admittedly) a media that tried to overthrow him and tries to influence the countries political outcomes.172.142.197.162 (talk) 16:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

???? Chavez´s bureaucritic policies and control over the justice system , theres no one talking about his media polices, which by the way even if he permits so, he has demostrated he has the power to override and discard media anytime he wants, wich is not precisely a demostration of free speech.----sabin

Wikipedia is not a forum. —JRSP (talk) 14:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Faulty Table?

Anyone beside me notice that in the Hugo Chavez Election Results table, about a third of the way down the page, the percentages add up to 130 percent of the population? 59% voted no + 41% voted yes + 30% did not vote adds up to 130%

The "voted no" and "voted yes" only take in account those who voted. 157.253.22.14 20:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

No link to "Criticism of Hugo Chávez" topic

I noticed that there is no outward link to the "Criticism of Hugo Chávez" topic, although there is a link from that topic to this. Is merely linking to criticism considered a breach of NPOV? The tone of this topic edges over into hagiography already, and placing all the criticism in a separate topic with no link to it is highly unusual -- perhaps in itself a breach of NPOV. Gruffbear 02:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

There is a link from the lead and another from the criticism section of this article. JRSP 02:24, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I see it. Sorry. Gruffbear 02:29, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Chavez

Im a bit miffed about the statment 'Some foreign governments, especially the government of the United States, view Chávez as a threat to democracy in the region', I dont have a problem with this as it is sourced, and that this is an excuse that the USA often use to denounce him, however I find it strange that this can be legitimate criticism A: that Chavez is democratically elected and has brought back democratic elections which were not there previously B: 'threat to democracy in Latin America', seriously Im a bit wtf (pardon my language), how can Chavez be a threat to democracy in Latin America when it barely exists outside Venezuela, when the United States has been the main threat to Latin American democratically elected governments (watch 'The war on democracy' despite its title and obviously set opinion, it provides factually udisputable evidence) , and where it does exist it is universally left-wing and therefore universally supported by Chavez. As I say I dont have a problem with saying that the USA claims to oppose Chavez because they view him as a threat to Latin American democracy (although, what democracy? its ruled by the Munroe doctrine) however the sentence quoted shouldnt be placed in the first paragraph, as to me at least it is a logical fallacy, it should be rephrased and put in a criticism section. I do have a pro-Chavez opion I dont deny it, but I believe the points I have made are perfectly logical, and we all have opinions, even those who contst what I have said.172.143.124.86 20:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I would be in favor of the change you propose. The entire topic seems to have been thoroughly vetted so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of the leftist Wikipedia reader community; so much so that it reads like a Hugo Chavez puff piece. So why not make the change? It will make this topic even sillier. (At some point, somebody might be tempted to flag this topic as "a work of fiction written in in-universe style," but that's another issue.)

Do topics written like this tend to ruin the cred of the Wikipedia concept? I'm not sure. But in any case, the change you propose can't possibly make this topic worse, so go for it. Gruffbear 17:03, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia reflects reliable sources, not opinion. I'm sorry that your opinion isn't reflected in reliable sources, and I don't support editorializing or removing reliably sourced content. In fact, if there's any problem with that statement, it could be the sole mention of the US. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:10, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, it looks like I have a 2-1 consensus (having waited a week) because some editors cant take the project seriosuly, and feel they have to try and be funny......

Also check the sction below (i havent moved it up here yet) where I clarified what my points were and tried to show that Im not just POV spoapboxing.172.142.232.113 (talk) 00:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I moved this from the section below, a user replied to my comment (I think) in the wrong section172.142.197.162 (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC) :

Idiot! The elections were fixed beyond all proportion. You're just plain wrong. WRONG. grrr. Have you even been to Venezuela? No, probably not. The contention that Chavez is a threat to democracy is correct and substantiated. To leave it out of the article would be biased in favor of this dictator. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.215.66.1 (talk) 18:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume you meant to paste that in the section above, in response to what I wrote, please refrain from referring to me as an idiot, I do not think of myself as an idiot (I have a high IQ anyway...), however maybe I am... (my spelling suggests so =P) but it is not really for you to say so, you are right (admittedly) that I have not been to Venezuela. However, I have studied this topic (in both English and Spanish) and I know for a fact that these elections have been watched closely, and have been deemed free by both the left and the right (except possibly some far-right wing groups, though it would be presumptious to assume that you are a far right winger). I would say Venezuela (from what I gather about it) is pretty fair, considering Chavez's own media is allowed to launch specific and derogotory attacks on him, and tried to initiate a coup against him, and still not being competely smashed after Chavez's return to power..... living in England I can tell you that the media here is not allowed to go out of its way to criticise the government at all, its meant to remain impartial, in fact the BBC was prosecuted for not being impartial, so please dont give me a lecture about liberty of the media. My point was this, to me the statement that 'Chavez is viewed as a threat to democracy in the region ' simply makes no logical sense to me, its not that is unsourced, it just is a logical fallacy, like the sttement 'chairs generally have two legs' for example, I would have no problem with the statement 'Some hold the opinon that Chavez does not support democracy' . Specifically in the region makes no sense, the source used (BBC) only vaguely points to criticism and itself does not elaborate, I view the BBC a reputable as far as it goes, but it hardly gives any reason for its statment. In the region (by this I assume South America) the only democratically elected governments currently are left-wing, please name for me a democratically elected right-wing government in this region of South America, and ill change my opinion. By democratically elected I dont mean supported by America and its Munroe doctrine, I mean actually democratic with free elections. If you cannot give me an example I assume I am correct in believing the statement is a logical fallacy, and ill change it to what I proposed (unless someone can come up with something better). As far as I know Chavez is not a threat to any left-wing democracies in South America, and since the only demorcacies there are left-wing (as far as I know) he is not anti-democracy in the region. Also my question that: If Chavez is anti-democratic why did he liberalise Venezuela and its media? still has not been adressed.172.142.232.113 (talk) 00:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Im giving you guys a day to come up with the awnsers to my questions, If there arent any awnsers Ill assume I am correct in believing the statement in question was a logical fallacy, I propose changing the sentence to 'Some believe Chavez's policies to be contrary to democracy, including the present US government' unless someone comes up with something better. Seeing as I have a somewhat ridiculous 2-1 consensus in my favour (as one user cant take this project seriously and ;lodge specific and meaningful criticism). believe the source supports my change, and that the source did not give a specific reason for supporting the previous statement (what democracy in the region is right-wing? what democracy is not supported by Chavez in Latin America?). The source (short-bbc article, hardly authortative) however is not too vague to support my change, it shows that Chavez is criticised by some people as anti-democratic, but makes no sense with ' in the region '. 172.142.197.162 (talk) 19:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One last thing, mainly just an inquisititive note as it is a matter of POV, why is America worried about lack of democracy in Latin America, when has it supported Latin American democracy over the Munroe doctrine? When has it supported Latin American democracy full stop? When has it supported dictators? 'cough' Pinochet 'cough' I cant remeber...172.142.197.162 (talk) 19:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

PS as I mentioned before, some dyslexia issues, bad spelling mainly, feel free to correct if your bothered

Also (this is a bit off topic but Im replying to an above comment), if your worried about offending our leftist sensibilities, maybe you should check out the wikipedia articles on the middle east, islam, islamophobia, and all those wacky obscurist nationalist groups in the middle east that have their own way with all their articles. Wikipedia is not solely left, nor is it solely right, its mixed.

Okay Ive waited a day since my original reply to the crticism I recieved, theere havent been any ansers to the questions I asked (in the big paragraph) yet, therefore ill log into my account and make the change I proposed (if I can retrieve my password...), you can remove it if you provide a reason why the statement as it is is not a logical fallacy, or you can discuss it here if you think it is too poorly written.172.216.245.193 (talk) 10:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I cant find my password, it gives you guys 4 days =P, seeing as its unlikely one of you will make the change for me.172.216.245.193 (talk) 10:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, the paragraph says

Chávez's reforms have evoked controversy in Venezuela and abroad, receiving anything from vehement criticism and enthusiastic support. Some people, especially in the government of the United States, view Chávez as a threat to democracy in Latin America. Others sympathize with his ideology or welcome his bilateral trade and reciprocal aid agreements. In 2005 and 2006 he was named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people.

I understand the main idea of the paragraph is synthesising that HC is a controversial figure: some people & governments (specially the US gov) don't like him while some others do. What changes do you suggest? JRSP (talk) 10:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Well ive made a new account, I waited rather longer than I said I would, the change that I proposed is in the text and Ill be changing it to such a I havent heard any specific criticism of what I jave written. I have spelling and grammar issues so if you notice anything in what I have written feel free to correct it, but not change the meaning of what I have written without reason stated.Anti-BS Squad (talk) 18:53, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

What?, you mean Chavez supports democracy?, seriously i dont know what you mean when you say there is little democracy outside venezuela when most goverments such as brazil, colombia, argentina and chile have democratic systems. Chavez does seem to be a threat, he supports and admires Fidel Castro, who is a dictator and is against media that criticises him, furthermore lately he has been supporting FARC guerrilas in colombia and proposed to stop qualifying them as terrorists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.233.245.66 (talk) 22:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

To anon:

First, you are using the term Monroe Doctrine wrong. It was a doctrine of keeping European powers out of the western hemisphere. Not controlling latin American countries. I suppose if you want to push that that is the policy of the U.S. you could use an extension of Manifest Destiny or some such.

Almost all of latin America is now democratised, after a long systematic fight of Soviet inspired instigation, the forces supported by the U.S. were victorious and now democratic. Say what you want by the means to achieve those ends. Most of latin America supports neo-liberal politics and have opened up their economies from state beurocratic regulation, and are now rapidly developing and mildly prosperous as a result of those policies.

Democracy, capitalism, and close U.S. relations are the norm in latin america now. Socialism and Chavestistas are the fringe.

You have a very revisionist view not only of history, but contemporary events as well. Nobody would claim that most of latin America is dictatorships. You created a figment imagination that support your own worldview, because reality does not. Thus, your opinion of the wording in this article is worthless. I recommend all your edits to be reverted. Chudogg (talk) 07:22, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Doubtfully this will receive attention anytime soon. So to address the sentence: "Some people, especially in the government of the United States, view Chávez as a threat to democracy in Latin America.[3]". This is blatant POV pushing. First, i see no reason to single out the United States. Chavez has erupted globabl controversy with supporters and opposition in all countries, including Venezuela itself. By putting the qualifer "the government of the United States" the editor is trying to influence the reader to believe that it is only political and/or economic interests that oppose Chavez. This is blatantly false. The majority of posters on Democratic Underground and Daily Kos see Chavez as anti-Democratic. The majority, if not the entirety of major leftwing publications view Chavez as anti-Democratic (the Economist is a center-left publication, btw). Cleary, in the United States at least, the unified consenus from the entire political spectrum view chavez as anti-democratic, and only an extreme left faction support Chavez. It is obviouse that it is not merely "the government" in the U.S. that opposes Chavez as the above editor attempts to portray. To find views supporting Chavez one as to look towards minor socialist zines and websites. Hopefully a more indepedent minded admin will revert this POV.Chudogg (talk) 16:04, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Editing

Why can I not edit this page? It's nothing substantial, only a grammatical mistake.--SCJE 18:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Article is semi-protected: anonymous users and new accounts can't edit it. You can wait a few days, request some administrator to remove protection or just say below what the mistake is and any "old" user can fix it. JRSP 18:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The error is found under the heading "2003-2004 recall Vote." the mistake itself is "The Colombians were outfit in Venezuelan military uniforms..." The word "outfit" should be in past tense (outfitted). Someone who is authorized please fix this. Thank you. --SCJE 18:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Education

On the introduction of Hugo Chavez it is said that he studied political science at the graduate level without obtaining a degree and it cites note number 8 as reference, but when note number 8 is read (text is in spanish), it clearly states that he obtained a masters degree but with his thesis pending. I think this implies that he was pursuing a Phd, for which a thesis would be necessary, (otherwise it wouldn't be stated in his biographie that his thesis is still pending), but since it isn't necessary to do a thesis for a masters degree, he did in fact obtain a masters degree in political science as cited on note 8 which a link to a venezuelan goverment website. In conclusion, someone miscited reference number 8 in saying that he left without a degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santafe785 (talk • contribs) 11:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Wrong, in the Venezuelan higher education system, a Thesis IS necessary for an Msc degree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.109.32.51 (talk) 16:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

In fact, Venezuelan higher education system officially uses the word "Thesis" only for doctoral dissertations. However, undergraduate degrees and master degrees usually require some research work, normally called trabajo especial de grado/maestría though many people informally call them tesis. Reference must be talking about his special research work for obtaining his master degree. JRSP (talk) 11:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Native American politician

I removed from this article. For one thing, that category's supercats make it clear that it means "Native Americans" in the sense of people indigenous to what is now the U.S. Also, the article does not substantiate that Huguo Chávez is an indigenous person.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 23:06, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Chavez calls for second referendum

This is my first time suggesting a change to wikipedia, and I'm not sure how to do it, but I thought I'd mention this article I came across today, and how it's not in Chavez's main wiki entry. www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSN1131818720080111

According to this Reuters article, during a state-of-the-nation address on Friday Jan. 11, 2008 Chavez once again brought up the idea of eliminating the constitutional provision on term-limits to his presidency and allowing him to run for re-election indefinitely-- despite a previous attempt failing back in Dec 2007. Although his second and final term is set to end in 2013, Chavez suggested holding a recall vote against himself in 2010, the earliest possible date, and "add[ing] a question in the referendum to also determine if Venezuelans want to give him the right of 'indefinite re-election.'"

Material removed from Code Pink article

We recently removed material from Code Pink after determining that said material was off-topic as far as Code Pink was concerned. An editor identified the material as being more appropriate on this article. If you're interested, here's the diff where we removed it: [2]. SchuminWeb (Talk) 11:15, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Military Policy

Please can I remove the excerpt under 'Military Policy' because it is not a Military Policy at all. --Uwaisis (talk) 20:49, 9 February 2008 (UTC)